Proxied deathwing vs tyranids

[Polythemus]

Deathwing vs tyranids

 

I think that what is interesting here is a discussion of the tactics which i will post more on later especially as it applies to what could have produced a victory here.

 

Edit: this is now fixed

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Link doesn't work.

[Polythemus]

Thanks for letting me know. And now on to the tactical analysis.

 

As ever deployment cant win you the game but it can lose you the game in this regard a couple of choices were problematic. He chose to deploy nothing which was quite foolish in my opinion since he knew he was going to have to go after that middle objective, and he could have had all his cyclones on the board from the begining since the horde army required that every weapon be brought to bear.

I think that the choice of the objective should have been the bastion instead of the terrain by the edge of the board this would have helped vs the outflanking stealers and would have allowed his units to support each other better. He could also have chosen the terrain on the opposite side which may allowed him to pen in the attacking army since he would have been bounded by the river.

The marines were using only four units of terminators which turned out to be too few, he didnt roll great either but if he had dropped the vindy and a dread he could have gotten another squad and a banner, which might have been able to do more damage. He also seemed not to be focusing enough on the synapse creatures which could have made his life a bit easier. Also it is clear that wound allocation would have helped the terminators alot and to suggest anything else is really foolish. Losing one terminator can make a huge difference in force effectiveness.

[Roland]

Hi, I'm the player in question. If you watch the extra (I think you have to be a member), I pretty much agree with what you said.

 

Plain and simple I screwed up when picking my objective. Changing that changes everything else, so it really only helps to go into broad points.

 

For whatever reason, I blanked on the fact he had genestealers and hence outflank. I would have chosen the bastion as an objective if I had to play it again. The other side (the river would have given the same issue as the terrain I took (genestealers outflank 2/3rd of the time to that side, and are in assault range)

 

I focused fire on the Swarmlord, past that I was trying to hard to take out everything at once. It's a bad habit of mine.

 

I'm not sure I agree about deploying nothing. I deployed nothing because it was DoW and I took second turn. He gets to shoot at nothing, I have all but one termie squad on and shooting in the bottom of the turn.

 

I discuss a few changes to the build in the extras as well. I could trade as AssCan for a HF and Banner on the command squad. the extra squad gained by dropping the Vindi and Dread would actually lower the firepower of the army (1 target vs 2).

 

You're gonna have to go into the wound allocation a bit, I'm not sure what you mean, and there are a few details I can add with that.

[EPK]

On the deep strike -

It makes me wonder, are the rules specific enough to exclude placing the terminators base to base to form a semi-circle (I feel like I've done it) which would avoid terrain. I know it sounds cheap...

 

And that is some bad save rolling... I feel your pain.

 

I'm now on part 3 and for some reason really want to go to Disney...

 

Okay all done. All those genesteelers - that was an epic way to go out at least!

 

As for wound allocation (which always confuses me too, so maybe someone can say it better than me), with a certain amount of differently armed models, you can spread wounds around so that one model might be taking two - perhaps the higher strength shot or the lower AP one. If you have TH/SS they obviously should be allocated the AP2 wounds with their superior invul. save.

 

For instance, in a squad that is TH/SS, CML+SB, CF+SB, PF+SB, DLC you can actually allocate each model separately. So say that the squad takes 6 wounds, one being AP2. Now you can allocate that first AP2 wound to the TH/SS than allocated the regular wounds around the group, placing the last regular wound back on the TH/SS. So he takes not only two wounds, but can more easily shrug off the more deadly one. And I'd actually recommend at least 2-3 TH/SS in each as well with the other 2-3 guys uniquely equipped (hopefully I got that right)

 

If you plan on changing up the list, here is some feedback -

 

I know you rationalize as less firepower, but I guarantee anyone will recommend that you have at least 5 DW squad for any lists that are 1850+.

 

You'll also probably hear that Belial with Sword+SB is the worst setup for him. TH/SS is his best because it offers the most survivability with nearly as many kills on average as claws (believe it or not). Claws come in a close second.

 

LRs have also somewhat fallen out of use for DW lists - though at least you brought a pair, one is just never enough. A lot of people are dropping them for Preds and LS Typhoons (take a look on the DA Army lists, you'll see what I mean).

 

And my last bit of advise is to strip your Ultras and repaint them bone which probably would have brought you the win :)

[Polythemus]

Hey thanks for stopping over in Da town roland!

 

On wound allocation,

Wound allocation allows to sequester wounds to specific models. In the video there is an example of an assaulting creature or squad( cant remember) causing three unsaved wounds. Now without wound allocation you must distribute those so that three of the squad die. With wound allocation the benefit is not so much in the fact that you gett to place extra ( read the remainder of wounds after division equally among squad members) wounds where you want, but in the fact that certain wounds must be identified with certain models. In our above example lets say there were 19 wounds that were caused by the termigaunt shooting, after you divide them among your squad you have 1 taking three and 4 taking 4 wounds. Now lets say that after all saves are rolled two 1s appear on one termie and 1 appears on another. You have improved survival by 20 %. it could also turn out that all three wounds happen on the same model, meaning that you improve survival by 40%. That is the benefit of wound allocation. The same die rolling probability will apply but the sequestering to certain models will change the outcome of those die rolls. As epk stated this becomes important when dealing with armor piercing weaps (ap1 ap2)

 

On squad vs vehicle,

The thing here is that with so much terrain, there will be alot of cover saves taken, so assault will yeild more damage than shooting unless you take a whilrwind. In addition your vehicles cant claim objectives. This leads me to think that against so many monstrous creatures there is an inherent benefit to having more of a squad presence, especially an assault squad presence. as for deploying first turn you may have been able to assault, although this is unlikely. And might have been able to put a dread closer to the opponents ojective.

 

On the whole, after watching matts battle reports, he is a tough player to play against and ive only seen him beaten twice. I want to see him go down! In flames! Like a meteor! So dont take any of this personally.

 

Question though, if the trygon is only strength seven what special rule does it have that allows it to glance av 14?

[Raven Angel]

Yea Nidzilla is alot harder to deal with these days then in the past. I understand taking the vindi as a way to quickly crush hord squads but it is really not a good option against the big ones because it can't dish out enough of that high powered damager per turn. a whilerwind, more termies or speeders are probaly a beter idea fighting nid MCs because you make him role more saves. the more you can shoot him and make him role dice the better your odds. Afterall thats how most people kill SMs to begin with. Also on you melt dred consider an AC/ Miss combo next time. Here again it coms down to more shots. Meltas don't get a special to wound MCs so the Miss is a beter opsion and you get frag templates for free and ther is the 4 AC shots too. Rending guns are the gift that keeps on giving. I also notice that the lack of a second Hvy wep really hurts the DW squads here. Hopfully that will get fixed soon. Also SS are a must for fight MCs in CC. You know you will need that 4+ save. I love LCs but against Nidzilla it TH/SS all day long. You almost never get to strike first so its best to plan on wheathering the storm of uber powerfull attacks and laying the smack down in return. Plus unless somthing has changed Ths can still stun the big multi wound beasties and nothing is better then watching a big bug getting pounded in assult and not getting to try and kill you first ;) THs are PFs with benefits.

[Roland]

EPK:

On DS, I know they have to be in BtB, but I believe you dont necessarily have to do a complete circle. Which vid is it in, I may have messed it up regardless.

Yes, my dice rolling is legendary. Locally I am know as "Snake-eyes"

 

I can see the arguments for a 5th squad. I'll have to try it out.

 

I prefer Belail w/ LC. I'm working on a magnetized conversion so I can switch out the weapons whenever.

 

I'm actually playing around on a list w / 2 Dread, 2Typhoon, 2 Pred. I think at the moment I have a single LRC in it, but I'll look at switching for the extra squad as well.

 

I use Ultra's for several reasons. My DA don't have enough Termies to do DW, and have slowly been getting absorbed into my UM army. I have planned out expanding my DA to do both DW and Greenwing (cuz I'm a glutton for punishment), but it'll be a while.

 

Poly:Matt is a tough player, but quite fun to play against. I have a friend here who wanted me to take a Vulkan list (and I actually did, as backup in case something got broke.)

And no offense taken. I played badly, I can take it like a man:)

 

The Trygon is a MC, so it gets Str+2d6 AP correct?

 

On wound allocation: we both batch rolled basic armor saves to save time (took almost 3 hrs for those 4 turns w/ filming), and both of us were on a time-limit (wife-people wanted us home). I imagine that hurt me more than him, but it was probably minor compare to my other mistakes.

[Polythemus]

Also SS are a must for fight MCs in CC. You know you will need that 4+ save. I love LCs but against Nidzilla it TH/SS all day long.

 

Raven, embrace the GW love, ss are a 3++ now ( note ++ = invulnerable save ) as per newest FAQ! Might have just been a misprint but gotta protect my battle bros when possible. Otherwise good stuff especially as it regards the thunderhammer as that rule can sometimes slip through the cracks of memory and is invaluble against mostrous creatures.

[EPK]

EPK:

On DS, I know they have to be in BtB, but I believe you dont necessarily have to do a complete circle. Which vid is it in, I may have messed it up regardless.

 

It was in the first vid, when you DW assaulted and hit difficult terrain. It didn't matter though, because you made your save anyway. I only asked because I figured you could have avoided it all together.

 

And I was just messing with you about the repaint. I'm no stickler there, I wouldn't fault anyone if the tables were turned either and a DA player used C:SM.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

I know you rationalize as less firepower, but I guarantee anyone will recommend that you have at least 5 DW squad for any lists that are 1850+.

 

LRs have also somewhat fallen out of use for DW lists - though at least you brought a pair, one is just never enough. A lot of people are dropping them for Preds and LS Typhoons (take a look on the DA Army lists, you'll see what I mean).

I disagree somewhat with these points. I personally am fine with 4 squads of DW at 2000, as it allows me to bulk up the mechanized side of the list. Also, I only take one Land Raider Crusader these days. At 2000, I have a hard time putting 1/4 of my points in two vehicles, but I still need a Crusader for Belial's squad, and they are very good horde clearing models. While only running 1 Land Raider Crusader decreases its survivability, I find that by surrounding it with AV12 Ven Dreads and an AV13 Vindicator really spreads out the pain. Dropping the Vindicator and Dreadnought also removes two roles Deathwing doesn't have elsewhere: ranged anti-heavy infantry on the Vindicator(anti-Paladin, really), and the ability to lock units without reliable anti-tank close combat ability but with lots of power weapons. Even with storm shields, sending a DW unit into Bloodcrushers is going to end badly. Sending a Ven Dreadnought in to tie them up forever and a day (seeing as how he has to rely on rending on a Str 5 model) allows you to deal with the other squads and then engage the squad when you can overwhelm them. Send that same Ven Dread against a Bloodletter squad that would wipe a squad in one round, and he's going to slowly chew them to pieces as they flail at him.

 

However, everyone has different play styles. The lists with the Preds and LS Typhoons aren't my playstyle. They strike me as similar in idea to the Purifier spam lists, and I guess I just never found the spam lists entertaining. They're not built around a theme or a rounded force, they just identify what's best in a FOC slot and copy/paste. While that definitely adds to competitiveness when done right, it detracts from the other areas of the hobby I find.

'

Sorry for the tangent, I just had to wade through a tournament of net-listed armies recently, and going up against Purifier spam, Venom spam, and Rune Priest/Long Fang spam all in a row kinda got me annoyed.

[Raven Angel]

Also SS are a must for fight MCs in CC. You know you will need that 4+ save. I love LCs but against Nidzilla it TH/SS all day long.

 

Raven, embrace the GW love, ss are a 3++ now ( note ++ = invulnerable save ) as per newest FAQ! Might have just been a misprint but gotta protect my battle bros when possible. Otherwise good stuff especially as it regards the thunderhammer as that rule can sometimes slip through the cracks of memory and is invaluble against mostrous creatures.

 

 

Oh I mised that might be time to make sure my copy is up to date, thanks

[EPK]

Guess we can just agree to disagree, I prefer at least 5 scoring units at 2000. I'm certainly not saying there is only one way to play, just pointing out the trend.

[BigGumbo]

EPK:

On DS, I know they have to be in BtB, but I believe you dont necessarily have to do a complete circle. Which vid is it in, I may have messed it up regardless.

 

It was in the first vid, when you DW assaulted and hit difficult terrain. It didn't matter though, because you made your save anyway. I only asked because I figured you could have avoided it all together.

 

Just to clarify here: by "made your save", do you mean "passed the dangerous terrain test"? I didn't think saves were available for dangerous terrain wounds.

 

On the DS "circle" question: I've always interpreted as a "you can't start on the second ring until you've finished the first" rule, rather than being a rule that states that all DSing squads, regardless of size, must form a circle on deployment. With a five man squad, you're always going to end up with a semi-circle so you'd be silly to put part of that semi-circle on dangerous terrain if you can avoid it...

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

EPK:

On DS, I know they have to be in BtB, but I believe you dont necessarily have to do a complete circle. Which vid is it in, I may have messed it up regardless.

 

It was in the first vid, when you DW assaulted and hit difficult terrain. It didn't matter though, because you made your save anyway. I only asked because I figured you could have avoided it all together.

 

Just to clarify here: by "made your save", do you mean "passed the dangerous terrain test"? I didn't think saves were available for dangerous terrain wounds.

Armor saves are not available. Invulnerable saves may be used, meaning with the common 3++ of most Deathwing armies, Dangerous Terrain has a 1/18 chance of killing a terminator that deepstrikes into it..

[BigGumbo]

Armor saves are not available. Invulnerable saves may be used, meaning with the common 3++ of most Deathwing armies, Dangerous Terrain has a 1/18 chance of killing a terminator that deepstrikes into it..

 

That's where I've been going wrong, then. That and all the sodding 1s I roll...

[EPK]

Yea, Roland actually misshaped with a regular terminator, so he needed 5++ and rolled a 6.