Phoenix Knights (take 2)

[Wargamer]

I am really, really not a fan of anything ever happening in the warp except for people getting lost, or getting reduced to their component atoms. The 'presence' in the Warp feels very, very wrong to me; it smacks of either the Astartes being helped by Daemons and somehow not at all suspecting that this might be what happened (which for a Dark Angel successor is beyond unforgivable), or worse still it sounds like you're trying to produce a Dark Angel version of the Sanguinor.

 

If it were me, personally, I'd just have the Marines manage to fight their way clear with a handful of ships and escape back to Realspace, where their enemies could not follow... or at the very least, have them gripped by an insane paranoia that the only reason that 'Warp presence' saved them is because they've brought something back out of the Warp with them. Blindly assuming it was the Emperor or the Primarch who came to their aid is just far, far too optimistic for the Unforgiven.

[TrashMan]

That wold be true...if they were true Unforgiven. But they aren't in the know. They don't know about what happened between the Lion and Luther.

 

That's not to say they are sure it was the E..or the Lion. They have no idea :lol: happened. Which is also why they were so weary and secretive when they emerged back to realspace and were in no hurry to contact anyone. They were trying to figure out what happened. Of course, they never did.

Needles to say, with the gene-seed mutation this sparked a lot of concerns. Was it a demon? A chaos God? The E? Or maybe something else entirely? ( there are more things in the warp than jsut demons) Is their escape tied to the mutation? Is it a blessing or a curse? Or both?

 

I find it an interesting idea to play with, but I'm still not sure....

[War Angel]

im currious as to how the chapter found out how long they had been gone. i feel like some mention of this should be shared.

[TrashMan]

Well, that's not a mistery. The IoM has to have some method of tracking time, no? Either trough astropaths or locally, but once out of the warp it wouldn't take long to figure out something is wrong.

Especially if the first thing you do is land on an imperial world.

 

Chapter Master: "Yo, were are the SM's that were assigend to this sector. This is now our new homeworld."

Governor: "Erm...I don't know anything about that."

Chapter Master: "dude, check your records. You must have recieved a heads up from the Administratium."

Governor: "I didn't...but one my predecessors did apparently. 300 years ago.. what took you so long?"

[War Angel]

I think this realization should be included in the IA. I can imagine them having set off to assist some planet in distress, arrive 300 years later

 

"hey where here to help, what's the status?"

 

"status of what?"

 

"the Ork invasion... Where are they? Wheres commander hrothgar he knows what I'm talking about"

 

"he died liberating this planet a few hundred years ago, are you lost?"

[TrashMan]

Well yes, something like that.

 

Altough the IA is not the place to write a in-depth story. Thats a territory better suited for a short story or novel.

Arriving 300 years to live practicly implies a similar reaction.

[War Angel]

im just saying, mention in the IA "shortly after ariving at there destination, the chapter found out they had been missing for 300 years and thought to be dead."

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I would like to add my thoughts here:

 

1) DA geneseed - cool, I like the DA. Not knowing about the fallen? yep, thats fine, in and of itself, as for the DA not wiping them out? yea, I can see that happening, but they would most likely deny you. And so will every other Unforgiven. And they will refuse contact and see to make life hard for you so that nothing bad happens to them.

 

2) New Weapons - sure. If the AdMech has not burned you for heresy. Bolting a new weapon onto a Land Raider is almost akin to heresy, read the section on the Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer. They took years and years to be approved for Astartes. And that was merely changing the load out for practicalities. I would say stay away from this area if you want to justify good relations with the AdMech

 

3) Battleship - sure, as long as its roughly akin to an Emperor class, thats fine. No worries here.

 

4) Warp - sure, you got stuck and a weird phenomenon got you out, yea, I can believe it. Just dont tell the =][= about it :) could be your own secret.

 

that all said, your chapter lacks character, they come across as over powered and awesome. what are their relations with the Ordos? how does the mutation affect their relationship with them? what about the Unforgiven? did they approach them for assistance? Do they clash with Unforgiven? Do the Unforgiven deny them as sons of the Lion? if so, what does your chapter feel about this? How did the death of their commanders/relics/everything affect them? what about a Chapter raised to replace them as soon as they realised they had disappeared? Is there one, if so, do they clash? is there resentment?

 

These are the questions that need answering imo

[TrashMan]

Hm...good points, I skimmed on some, but I see they might need more in-depth answer.

 

 

Their relations with the DA and the unforgiven are strained at best. And no, the chapter didn't approach them, since they themsevels have been untrusting (given the whoel ambush thing).

Initially the relations were even worse, the DA almost deciding to wipe them out. It took all of Arturian diplomatic and oratory skills and the backing of a few powerfull friends to get the DA to grudingly accept them. They don't trust them and prefer to keep their distance... and no, they do not consider them "true" sons of the Lion.

 

The relaitons with the ordos (if you read the longer articel linked athte top) is colofull. Depending on the inqusitor it ranges considerably.

 

 

I will add more to ht article and give you a heads up when I do.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

those things need to be in the IA and fleshed out more. Id like to see more of how Arturian managed to keep the full might of the DA away, were they aware of the fact that the DA wanted to erase them? Or was it a behind the scenes between the AdMech and the DA? (remember, these guys are one of the most powerful forces as their clout is massive)

 

it would be nice to see more of the distrust being shown throughout the IA, how far does it extend. If they distrust, they did they entrust the technological secrets to the AdMech? Why do they trust the =][=?

 

And, again, what do they feel about the mutations of the perfect geneseed? is it shameful or do they bear it with pride? do they seek a 'cure' or flaunt it openly?

 

How good is the relation with the AdMech, do they perform tasks for the AdMech, or is it purely based on the STC/battleship. If they do perform discreet tasks, how do they hide thisor avoid censure for it?

 

Theres a ton of potential here, and I want to see it all fleshed out in the IA. Some of the other points raised by other posters I agree with, and think could be changed to be more subtle (like the fireballs and new weapons/variants) or taken out as they do not add to the character of the Chapter. But, regardless, in the end its your IA, so feel free to ignore me :D

[TrashMan]

I'm extending things a bit, but since I'm swamped wiht work these days, it's going slower. I will adress every point you adressed. I already added a bit more about the DA in the chapter wiki, and wil ladd more.

 

But I did have novel idea. I said that all the training cadre was lost. But what if it wasn't?

What is Avernus, now the chief Librarain, is one of the orginal DA training cadre? What if he was the one who performed psycho-indoctrination and screening on Arturian?

That raises many interestign questions with even more interesting answers.

 

Does Avernus know about the Fallen? If so, why didn't he tell anything to anyone? What is his view on the Fallen and his parent chapter?

Why did he support Arturian? Why did he even allow Arturian to become a space marine? Does he support his way of thinking? Is he responsible partially for it?

Edited May 23, 2012 by TrashMan

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Avernus would know, all Librarians are inducted into the IC immediately. This makes them tougher than standard Libbies as the recruitment process is tougher and harder so as to avoid mistakes. (reason is they can find out anyway and they are more susceptible to the warp than a normal Battle Brother)

 

If he did survive...then, unless hes possessed, your chapter would know about the Fallen and the real question there is what is their attitude to them. Avernus, as the seniour officer, would take charge of the chapter while it rebuilt, this is standard SM tactics and doubly so for the DA. If you want to keep your original idea, then no-one should survive. Unless they are a TechMarine. They don't know anything. Then again, he would be the new MoTF, so he may well have been told. Best bet is too leave it as it is.

 

Thats just my views, though. I would just leave it as it is imho

[TrashMan]

Hm..so you're saying that a DA libby would never deliberately stay silent about the Fallen?

Hm...maybe if Avernus was displeased with the way the DA do stuff?

 

Ahh..too bad that all DA libbies are in the know. I fel this had potential for more manipulation, mistrust and cloack and dagger work.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

He would not feel it is wrong. It is like a Spartan boy thinking war was wrong and all he was taught was about war. Chances are he would take over the Chapter, rebuild, groom a successor to lead the Chapter and create an Inner Circle that meshes with the current Inner Circle :P

[TrashMan]

He would not feel it is wrong? I guess that's why there are rebel chapters and mariens falling to chaos and fighting between chapters and similar stuff.

Isn't htere already one chapter (and many DIY chapters) that have the chapter say "Fallen? Meh... "

 

Huurr...I guess you're right. Making them know about but ignore the "issue" might not work.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

theres one official chapter (Angels of Absolution) who do not feel the shame, but they share in the desire to hunt and prosecute the Fallen whereever they can.

 

I cannot say for DIY chapters. Octa has one that is different, which is basically run by the Fallen, and they have no ties with the DA and hate Jonson, indeed, they stay away from them.

 

Avernus would not feel the hunt is wrong, after all, its all hes ever been taught. The DA's morality is that fallen = bad/shameful. The only moral thing to do is to make them repent of their sins and thus save both the fallen and erase their own shame. You have to remember that they have been like this for thousands of years, that kind of indoctrination cannot just be waved over.

[TrashMan]

I never said that the chapter or Avernus would feel the hunt is wrong. Hunting traitors is never wrong.

But the level of obsessiveness is.

One cannot change the past, so one must work for the future. One cannot be held acountable for the sins of his fathers. The basic idea is that the past is the past, and now is now. Abandoning friends, allies/battle-brothers to go hunt a fallen is a even greater betraly than what the Fallen did, as it puts one own wants (vengance, "absolution") before the lives of fellow brothers and the good of the imperium.

 

 

And the reason I was going for this is that some expressed disbelief that the DA would let a sucessor chapter not know about the Fallen (or let it live for that matter).

Edited May 24, 2012 by TrashMan

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The thing is, the obsession is one of the key things that marks the Unforgiven as unique. We, in our 2nd Millenium view look on it and go 'better to forgive and forget' the DA look on it and say 'there is only one way to be absolved: hunt every last one down'. The reason it is kept sooo secret is a little thing called the =][=. If they find out...it could be curtains on the DA, at least, when the Imperium just started to recover, it would have been curtains, something like that would put them all under suspicion. its the guilty by association mentality. Its become dogma, we see it in the real world, dogma and tradition become engrained over what...2000 years? even less time, actually. Imagine 10,000 years of the same beliefs..always reinforced, never questioned. When we think like this, we see just how they believe this way.

 

That said, the hunt itself is rare. A rumour surfaces, and if its really a fallen, thats the most rare even. Only a few thousand Marines turned, most probably died, and a few hundred were scattered. The bad rep the DA have is, imo, often unjustly earned. It seems to common to be real, however, its what they are 'known' for, and so we must deal with it.

 

A Chapter that denies the hunt but knows, would be wiped out to protect the secret. Regardless of ties. Does not even have to be the DA, another Unforgiven Chapter would obey the instructions. The conversation would go like this:

 

'so sorry Inquisitor..but those Knights? tainted. The time in the warp, mucked them up, cant trust them. We had to act now'

'and the Admech?'

'also corrupted, terrible loss, much regretted'

 

These are the issues you have to work with in a DA Chapter, and why many think they are restrictive. However, I disagree, hence why I created a DIY DA that hunts the fallen and is part of the Legion, yet is, in my view, unique in its own way.

 

I hope I am being helpful here :lol: But I think the safest bet is to kill of the whole cadre allowing a 'clean' slate as it were, and less of a chance for DA fearing the knowledge. Possibly a Librarian screening them to see if they know.

[TrashMan]

Made some more changes.

 

 

Avenger wepons removed. A bit mroe details on their relationship with oither factions.

Added more under beliefs, particulary their pennace.

[TrashMan]

Some more tiny updates..Mostly on arturian and some other characters.

 

One bigegr change is that I changed the eldar crafworld to a well known one - Iyanden.

Why?

Because the DIY craftworld I created ended up being exactly the same, alsmot 100% identical. Note that I didn't read upon eldar and thair craftworlds(I didn't know about Iyanden at all), it was only doing some research for the IA that I came upon it and realised how perfectly it fits.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

the problem with this NAP with Iyandan is that they are an established craftworld. So, your telling me that, cause I play Iyandan, I cannot use them to fight SM? And what happens if they need to fight the IoM?

 

Eldar make alliances only when they know it will benefit them. If they know that General X will one day attack a planet and that planet will actually have an artefact that cannot be used as it will hurt them, they will attack and kill General X, or spoil his plans.

 

If you do have it, I would use a random craftworld, or better yet, just have it that they have a grudging respect for each other that leaves them to avoid conflict.

[TrashMan]

What do you mean "you cannot use them"?

I'm afraid I dont' understand. Even fluff-wise, any game can be easily jsutified by the alliance breaking.

If your'e asking - what happenes if they attack some other IoM force? Part of the deal would be for them to avoid messing with the IoM and focus on messing up other nasties. That doesn't mean they can't defend themselves if attacked by another IoM force, but basicly "run/retreat/avoid" would be the modus operandi.

 

I know using an established craftworld is touchy, but using the one I made wouldnt' be much better - people would say I just copied ir or have no immagination or whatnot. But maybe I should jsut say "frak em" and go with it anyway.

The basics that correspond to Ilyaden are all there:

- craftworld dedicated to Asuryan

- sustained heavy losses recently

[Ecritter]

I have to agree, using your own would be better.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

What do you mean "you cannot use them"?

I'm afraid I dont' understand. Even fluff-wise, any game can be easily jsutified by the alliance breaking.

If your'e asking - what happenes if they attack some other IoM force? Part of the deal would be for them to avoid messing with the IoM and focus on messing up other nasties. That doesn't mean they can't defend themselves if attacked by another IoM force, but basicly "run/retreat/avoid" would be the modus operandi.

 

I know using an established craftworld is touchy, but using the one I made wouldnt' be much better - people would say I just copied ir or have no immagination or whatnot. But maybe I should jsut say "frak em" and go with it anyway.

The basics that correspond to Ilyaden are all there:

- craftworld dedicated to Asuryan

- sustained heavy losses recently

 

My arguement against using Iyandan is it is all about the shared universe of 40K. Yea, you can have it, and I am not saying you can't. What I am saying is that, when I read it, I was like 'eh, what? Yriel would never do that!' This shattered my suspension of disbelief, something that makes me no longer believe in your chapter. I want to believe that what you write can be true in our shared universe, I want to add it into my own canon. Thats what, as a writer of an IA, I feel we should strive to achieve. Using an established chapter/Legion/world/craftworld etc. in this way breaks the suspension of disbelief. Using your own craftworld keeps that up for me, and makes me believe that this can happen and has happened. With Iyanden, I get the opposite feeling.

 

I would use a small craftworld, so, one thats not a major one at all (craftworlds do differ in size), possibly the heavy losses are more apparent purely because they do not have the population to sustain any form of heavy losses, and unfortunately they recently suffered those losses. Craftworlds can be dedicated to Asuryan, sure, nothing to say Iyanden is unique in that regard.

 

Just my 2 pence

[TrashMan]

I just love that Craftworls..and it's name "Light from darkness".

 

But yea...gonna change it back to my own craftworld.

 

Also, does Arturians abiltiy to easily read poeple seem too much? I really want him to be a manipulatr/diplomat/ruler...magnificent bastard, machiavellian type. That means reading and understanding peopel's body language and emotions - and hiding his. However, this is something space marines are definately NOT known for.