Phoenix Knights (take 2)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think it is fine. However, his being a son of the Lion....they especially are not known for their ability to read people accurately.

 

Just something to bear in mind; geneseed has an effect on the character of the Astartes in all regards. Ultramarines are widely known as the best diplomats/negotiators (well, within the Imperium, not so much with Xenos) and all sons of Guillieman to some regard follow this pattern. The sons of Jonson suffer from the flaws inherent in his seed, such as stubbornness, hubris and paranoia. They often fail to judge people correctly, in fact, most of the time, however, they are still brilliant commanders and tacticians. Its a contradiction, yea, but it's what we have to work with :cuss

 

I hope this helps you out somewhat.

[TrashMan]

Stuborn - check

paranoia - check

hubris - more or less...check

 

That fits Arturian and my marines. The only difference is being good at reading people, of which Arturian is a bigger exception.

 

But frankly, I suspect many things that were going on with the primarch and their "chidlren" have more to do with their upbringing than with the geneseed. One of these thing is being able to read people. This is learned abilty, and marines don't spend enough time socilizing with humans to pick it up.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

yes and no, some people can spend a lot of time around people and fail to be able to read them accurately.

 

However, the upbringing of your chapter could have created in them a more unique gift of reading people, I was just pointing out the effect of geneseed for you to be aware of ;)

[Brother Daeger Helsir]

Okay, so.

 

If you ask me, and I'm basing my judgment on the guidelines that have been set out by the Liber's Who's Who as well as my own inclinations- This chapter needs a hell of a lot of work.

 

Semi-rant section, actual critique below.

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My first instinct in responding to this IA would honestly be to dive in and start ripping apart all of the numerous rough areas that pain me as a 40k fan and writer, with the most merciless and bitingly keen scorn I could muster. You seem to have hit about 80% of the Do Not Do's and Bad Writing Cliches of DIY chapter making, and after the rough treatment you gave my friend Wargamer's IA for much less justification, I'm inclined to be unpleasant about it.

 

However, in addition to the fact that you'd probably just get your back up in a huff because someone attacked your precious special snowflake chapter and refuse to listen to anything I say, there's honestly so much going on here that sets my teeth on edge, I wouldn't know where to start, or how to go through the lot without spending pages and pages doing it.

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So, instead, I will attempt to constrain my nerdrage at the many parts I see as blatant fluff and setting-theme mangling. I am going to try and isolate/identify what you seem to wish to be the core aspects of your chapter, and put forth my commentary on how I think you can and should work to hone and shape them together into an improved and cohesive whole. Bear with me here, since trying to be constructive rather than allow myself the catharsis of excoriating your IA will take effort and concentration, and I might slip.

 

For now, this will simply be a listing of what I understand are the core ideas of the chapter to see if I got an accurate picture, and a couple of my thoughts on those core ideas.

A more thorough analysis and questions will come in a later post.

 

Here are the key aspects of your chapter I've picked up on in my reading:

 

Conceptual:

* Dark Angels geneseed, which was initially pure. However, only a short time after the chapter's founding, it acquired significant mutation and degeneration.

* The Chapter does not know it is of Dark Angels heritage, despite having (initially pure) Dark Angels geneseed.

* The Chapter attaches great thematic significance to flame and fire; its Librarians have a vastly higher than usual tendency for pyrokinetic talents, and its marines favor flame and heat based special weaponry, reminiscent of the Salamanders.

* The Chapter attaches immense thematic significance to the mythological phoenix, and its ability to rise anew from the ashes of its demise. Note: A belief like this is a solid-gold opportunity for a plotline of tragedy and recovery that would give rise to such a belief being so strongly held.

 

Historical:

* An extremely momentous stroke of misfortune shortly after the Chapter's founding causes the extensive corruption of their geneseed, with extensive effects- both positive and negative- to its operation.

* Similarly, the Chapter has either never known, willingly forgotten, or been caused by conspiracy to forget that it is of Dark Angels heritage, and this has been so from its earliest days. As such, they neither know of, care about, nor hunt the Fallen. Note: One possible explanation is that the founding cadre intentionally witheld the knowledge because of the extensive mutation that struck the Chapter, feeling that their geneseed deviance made them not worthy successors of such knowledge, and not wanting the Unforgiven further sullied by association with "degenerate" marines.

* Alternately (I'm not sure which is correct): The Chapter has become aware that their original geneseed was Dark Angels/that Lion el'Johnson is their Primarch, but they remain unaware of the Fallen, and the Dark Angels have not learned about their heritage to inform them otherwise. Note: One possible explanation for this could be that when the Chapter's geneseed was being checked out by the AdMech due to its mutations, the AdMech were able to figure out the geneseed's original identity, and told the Knights about it. Since the Admech doesn't know the Dark Angels' secret, the identity is all they would know to tell. For some reason or another that hasn't been worked out yet, the Phoenix Knights decide not to share this information outside of their ranks, explaining why the Unforgiven haven't been bothering the hell out of them.

* The chapter's current name of Phoenix Knights is not their original name. Instead, they named themselves this to commemorate the tragedy they survived in their early history and the great lengths they have gone to overcome it.

 

Characterization:

*The current Chapter Master is unusual for a Space Marine in that he is very socially skilled- eloquent and emotionally intuitive. Though he is not a psyker, he has either been blessed with or cultivated a very keen insight into human interaction, allowing him to get an excellent feel for people's likely thoughts and emotions, judge their character, and discern their intent. Note: Combined with the gravitas of being a leader of Space Marines, this would make him a near-peerless diplomat if he so chose. It would be superbly fascinating and refreshing to see a chapter whose chapter master is distinguished by his ability to win people to his cause and forge the often-fractious elements of the Imperium into a united force against its foe, rather than yet another chapter master known for being a supah dupah awesum bestest-ever killmachine. IMO that'd be more awesome than any ten Draigo wannabes.

*Possibly as an extension of a highly empathetic Chapter Master's personal philosophies, the Chapter places a stronger value than many on preserving human life.

*The Chapter is and has for a long while been significantly understrength, due to its compromised geneseed.

*An auxiliary force made up of chapter Serfs and failed aspirants fights directly alongside the Chapter and helps to partially alleviate their lack of numbers. Note: To make this feel more "anchored" in the setting, maybe have the Chapter or the IA invoke the "False Marines" of the Crusade Era as a precedent that justifies the Auxiliaries.

*The Chapter has unusually strong, and warm, ties of alliance and friendship with the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Note: This is very much worth expanding on as a means of explaining why a chapter with what would normally be cripplingly low recruitment rate and potentially damning geneseed mutation has nonetheless managed to survive, and even thrive. The friendship of the Admech keeps them unusually well supplied, and the influence of the Admech keeps them safe from harmful meddling by other factions that might want to cast doubts on their purity.

*Because of their Admech ties, the Chapter's marines have an unusual degree of basic knowledge and basic mechanical competence regarding their wargear, allowing them to personalize it and continually keep it in top-notch condition.

*The Chapter is significatly codex-divergent. Note: I would personally make a point of emphasizing that their deviations here are those they were forced to adopt out of necessity, due to the realities of operating as a near-permanently understrength chapter. This makes it more believable than the way it currently comes across as an attitude that they simply disregard the Codex as they please, since it gives them a specific rationale behind the extensive changes they've made.

*The statement that the Chapter emphasizes surprise tactics seems a little at odds with their very bright and conspicuous color scheme and their fancy, individualized helmets. To bring the two together harmoniously, I would suggest that even moreso than other Astartes, the chapter emphasizes shock-and-awe tactics; catch 'em by surprise, then make such a spectacular impression once you've come out in the open and strike that it overwhelms the foe. Drop pod assaults are, naturally, amongst the best possible tools for Shock and Awe in the space marine arsenal. The idea is that overawing the foe makes him fight less effectively, and as an understrength chapter the Knights are happy to leverage whatever force multipliers they can get.

*One of the Chapter's most prized relics is the flagship of its fleet, a vastly powerful and ancient vessel on size with the mightiest Imperial warships. As far as anyone knows, this vessel is unique; none others like it have been found, its origins are unknown save that it appears to be an STC construct, and it has resisted the efforts of Techpriest and Techmarine alike to delve its secrets. Note: A bit more info on how exactly they got their hands on such an incredible treasure would be worthwhile.

 

Geneseed Deviance:

* The Chapter's geneseed is extensively mutated and corrupted, but, thank the Emperor, stable.

BIG Note: The state of the Chapter's geneseed is a perfect tie in for their friendship with the Admech, which currently seems tenuous and thinly justified. You may want to consider writing about how, out of great fear for the fate of their geneseed when it started degenerating, the Chapter threw themselves unreservedly at the Adeptus Mechanicus' door, beseeching their aid in analyzing the faulty geneseed and in helping to halt or correct its genetic decline. The incredibly intense cooperation this would have required, over what was likely a quite extended period of time, is the ideal situation to create a strong tradition of the two organizations working closely together for mutual benefit. The Mechanicus would have jumped at a justified excuse to experiment on Geneseed the likes of which they haven't had since the Cursed Founding, and the Chapter would have an immense debt of gratitude to the Mechanicus for saving them from corruption. In return, because of that gratitude the Mechanicus would know they have a group of Astartes who they can ask favors of and rely on, and possibly entrust with the field-testing of various experimental equipment. Additionally, the involvement of the Mechanicus trying to salvage the geneseed makes the very specific and often quite beneficial characteristics of your chapter's geneseed feel much more plausible than if it was all just random chance from the Warp.

* The geneseed's stabilized mutations caused the following drawbacks: Nonfunctional Betcher's gland, reduced sense of smell and taste, increased vulnerability to cold environments, drastically increased rejection rate. Note: For specifics, the dulled taste and smell indicates a significant problem with the omophagea, to me. This would likely go hand in hand with a reduction, or absence, of the beneficial functions this organ normally provides- namely, the "genetic memory through taste" stuff, IIRC.

* The geneseed's stabilized mutations caused the following benefits: Longer lifespan than normal, increased rate of healing compared to standard marines, decreased lethality of implant rejection. (The pyrokinesis of their Librarium doesn't need to be linked to this; it can simply be a quirk of the Chapter's librarium that every psychic marine ends up able to learn fire manipulation.)

*I would like to make another suggestion for a mutation effect: Hollow bones honeycombed with thin crossbraces, like those of Terran birds. In birds, this evolved because it keeps the bone almost as strong as the more solid configurations of other species, while also making them significantly lighter, easing flight. In the Phoenix Knights, it might translate into a greater tendency for Assault Marines and away from more physically punishing roles, since the light, hollow bones would allow the jetpacks to transport them a hair faster and more maneuverably, but not be able to stand up to quite as much punishment as those of an ordinary Marine.

 

 

Hopefully you have found this constructive so far, and will bear with me for part II.

 

 

 

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Thinking of buffing up a Whirlwind, since it seems terribly under-used in games. Anyone got any ideas?

 

I always thought a multiple rocket launcher like that should be perfectly able to load the other sorts of missiles Marines use normally, considering that it's basically a giant Cyclone Launcher on tracks. Perhaps an upgrade-variant that lets you fire a twinlinked Hunter-Killer missile each turn rather than firing one of the usual Whirlwind munitions?

[TrashMan]

Heh...brother Dager, cliches and tropes are onlny bad if they are not used properly.... as such I won't avoid "cliches" if I think I can use them effectively. :P

If I manage to do see remains to be seen tough.

 

Thanks you for your criticism. Some of your notes are excellent and I do plan on acting on them.

 

That said, I don't know if you followed the link or read just whats in the first post (since I update the link, not hte post), but some clarification is in order.

 

- Tragedy and recovery were involved, and it is one of the cornerstones of PK's beliefs. But going into details is something for a novel or short story, not a IA. Altough I probably should add something more about it.

 

- The Chapter does know they are the sons of the Lion, but they do not know of the Fallen. Remeber, alssot the entire chapter was wiped out, including the entire inner circle.

However, the mistrust because of mutation is also a great explanation...question is, which is better?

 

- Regarding the Chapter Master, he is indeed, weaker on the battlefield than your average super-dupah-chapter master. Devoting so much time to governing and diplomacy has to take it's toll somewhere. He's not seen on the battlefield much, delegating most of tht stuff to his captains.

 

- the Guard Exemplar are modeled after Luther and his knights (False Astartes) from the Dark Angels. Since the PK dont' know about Luther...

 

- I never specified that the battleship was beyond the AdMech grasp. Jsut that it was ancient. The AdMech had it, repaired it, analzyed it..and it still does. Several Magoses are permanantly stationed on the ship, as part of the deal between the chapter and AdMech.

[Brother Daeger Helsir]

Heh...brother Dager, cliches and tropes are onlny bad if they are not used properly.... as such I won't avoid "cliches" if I think I can use them effectively. :lol:

If I manage to do see remains to be seen tough.

 

That caveat is a given. I've been in the fluff business long enough to know how a well-placed cliche can be a great thing; I mentioned them here because where I saw them, I do not believe they were being used effectively.

 

Thanks you for your criticism. Some of your notes are excellent and I do plan on acting on them.

 

That said, I don't know if you followed the link or read just whats in the first post (since I update the link, not hte post), but some clarification is in order.

 

I read the majority of the IA, the majority of your tabletop rules thread, and skimmed the Wiki entry.

 

- Tragedy and recovery were involved, and it is one of the cornerstones of PK's beliefs. But going into details is something for a novel or short story, not a IA. Altough I probably should add something more about it.

 

A blow-by-blow rendition is certainly more detail than neccesary, but as you say, this plot arc is THE formative event(s) of your chapter, so it really ought to be included (in sufficiently summarized form) in the IA.

 

- The Chapter does know they are the sons of the Lion, but they do not know of the Fallen. Remeber, alssot the entire chapter was wiped out, including the entire inner circle.

However, the mistrust because of mutation is also a great explanation...question is, which is better?

It's my experience that while coincidence isn't exactly a sin in writing, large amounts of coincidence (especially plot-convenient coincidence) are best avoided. If you choose the route of distrust due to mutation, it requires less contrivance on your part than a miraculous twist of fate wiping out exactly enough of the founding cadre at exactly the right time so your chapter knows they're of the Lion but knows nothing of the Fallen.

 

I would suggest you take my idea of mistrust from mutation and run with it. Something like this:

->You have a brand new chapter with a Dark Angels founding cadre. The DA begin to teach the new chapter of their heritage, but DA being DA they're really closemouthed and cautious about the whole deal. Only giving the new marines very small amounts of information at a time, then waiting until they feel the newbies are "ready" for the next tier of knowledge.

->So, after their founding, the only bit that most anyone in the chapter knows is that they're of El'Johnson's gene-stock.

->Founding tragedy hits. (Not 100% clear on what this tragedy is or will be, but we'll talk about it more. I'd say, be very leery of the typical "lost in the warp" cliche though.) Many of Founding Cadre and the "next generation" - the new PK marines being trained for leadership roles, and thus the ones who'd have been entrusted with more secret knowledge by the founding cadre- are killed, and the chapter's geneseed begins to degrade massively, at an alarming rate.

->Founding cadre sees mutation, considers chapter to be compromised. Intentionally witholds any further information, sends secret transmissions to DA proper that the Phoenix Knights are corrupt and unworthy inheritors; the Unforgiven must not be sullied by association with such marines. The Phoenix Knights must not be permitted into the fold, and cannot be entrusted with knowledge of the Fallen.

->Instead of being consumed by their geneseed degredation and dying out like the founding cadre hoped, the Phoenix Knights turn to the Mechanicus for aid, stabilizing their geneseed and forming a close, mutual bond.

 

The end result of this progression of events combines to give you a chapter that:

-Is DA geneseed and knows it, but is in the dark about the Unforgiven/Fallen.

-Has a strong, sensible reason why they don't know, and why the Unforgiven proper aren't on their case about it.

-Has a strong, sensible reason for their alliance with the Mechanicus and, by extension, how they managed to stabilize such an extensively mutated geneseed.

-Has a solid-gold plot hook to be on poor terms/tense relations with the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven. ("These guys are our kin, but they treat us like total dicks! Won't even give you the time of day if you asked! Well, they can stuff it!" or "Hmm, it's like they're avoiding us on purpose! What jerks. Why would they want to do that...? Are they hiding something from us...?")

 

 

- the Guard Exemplar are modeled after Luther and his knights (False Astartes) from the Dark Angels. Since the PK dont' know about Luther...

Make this another point of contention between the Chapter and the Unforgiven; the possibilities are glorious!

 

"Citing precendents unearthed in documents about false astartes supplementing the Legions of the Great Crusade, the Phoenix Knights established an auxiliary chapter corps of gene-enhanced serf volunteers and failed Aspirants known as the Guard Exemplar to supplement their low numbers..."

 

Meanwhile, you've got the Unforgiven looking in on this and thinking to themselves: "Yeah, we all know how well THAT went last time! Yet another reason we can't trust those deviants!" ;)

 

- I never specified that the battleship was beyond the AdMech grasp. Jsut that it was ancient. The AdMech had it, repaired it, analzyed it..and it still does. Several Magoses are permanantly stationed on the ship, as part of the deal between the chapter and AdMech.

 

I know you didn't; I did. I included that clause so that you can have your supership and have it fit within the framework of 40k. The Chapter has rediscovered an incredibly powerful and ancient relic, the likes of which has never been seen before. Furthermore, they're close friends with the admech, so it's not like the usual situation where a Chapter finds some shiny relic and doesn't want to let the Admech mess around with it. Considering the sort of extensive research and scrutiny this inevitably means that their flagship would undergo, there has to be something preventing the Admech from being able to reverse engineer the design, or else you can bet your hat Mars would be pumping the things out like they were candy. It'd be a Sufficiently Big Deal that the rest of the galaxy would have heard of this pattern by now (i.e. there'd be something in official GW material about it.)

 

Since we know there isn't, to make it mesh with the shared setting there needs to be a reason the Flagship hasn't been reverse engineered for mass production and likely never will be. By far the simplest way to do this is to simply state that the vessel is an archaeotech relic so ancient and sophisticated that it proves simply beyond the understanding of every Mechanicus team that has tried to puzzle out more than how to keep it running and in good repair.

[TrashMan]

- The Chapter does know they are the sons of the Lion, but they do not know of the Fallen. Remeber, alssot the entire chapter was wiped out, including the entire inner circle.

However, the mistrust because of mutation is also a great explanation...question is, which is better?

It's my experience that while coincidence isn't exactly a sin in writing, large amounts of coincidence (especially plot-convenient coincidence) are best avoided. If you choose the route of distrust due to mutation, it requires less contrivance on your part than a miraculous twist of fate wiping out exactly enough of the founding cadre at exactly the right time so your chapter knows they're of the Lion but knows nothing of the Fallen.

 

You make a good point, but isn't the training cadre only a few men?

The Inner Circle is always kept small in the DA, and when you loose 4/5'ths of the chapter is it really so hard to belive that that dozen was among the dead?

 

 

I would suggest you take my idea of mistrust from mutation and run with it. Something like this:

->You have a brand new chapter with a Dark Angels founding cadre. The DA begin to teach the new chapter of their heritage, but DA being DA they're really closemouthed and cautious about the whole deal. Only giving the new marines very small amounts of information at a time, then waiting until they feel the newbies are "ready" for the next tier of knowledge.

->So, after their founding, the only bit that most anyone in the chapter knows is that they're of El'Johnson's gene-stock.

->Founding tragedy hits. (Not 100% clear on what this tragedy is or will be, but we'll talk about it more. I'd say, be very leery of the typical "lost in the warp" cliche though.) Many of Founding Cadre and the "next generation" - the new PK marines being trained for leadership roles, and thus the ones who'd have been entrusted with more secret knowledge by the founding cadre- are killed, and the chapter's geneseed begins to degrade massively, at an alarming rate.

->Founding cadre sees mutation, considers chapter to be compromised. Intentionally witholds any further information, sends secret transmissions to DA proper that the Phoenix Knights are corrupt and unworthy inheritors; the Unforgiven must not be sullied by association with such marines. The Phoenix Knights must not be permitted into the fold, and cannot be entrusted with knowledge of the Fallen.

->Instead of being consumed by their geneseed degredation and dying out like the founding cadre hoped, the Phoenix Knights turn to the Mechanicus for aid, stabilizing their geneseed and forming a close, mutual bond.

 

 

Not bad, not bad.

I may yet run with that.

 

I know "lost in the warp" is cliche, but IMHO it kinda feels like it gives the right note. Not only because it explains the mutations (exposure to warp energies), but also the loss of so many (who is more fearsome opponent than demons? Who to break the will and cause dispair more?) and the paraonia (for a whole fleet to be stuck in the warp and attacked at precisely that time...there msut be some traitor behind it). Also missing 300 years of history explains the paranoia and desire to gather information even more.

 

 

I know you didn't; I did. I included that clause so that you can have your supership and have it fit within the framework of 40k. The Chapter has rediscovered an incredibly powerful and ancient relic, the likes of which has never been seen before. Furthermore, they're close friends with the admech, so it's not like the usual situation where a Chapter finds some shiny relic and doesn't want to let the Admech mess around with it. Considering the sort of extensive research and scrutiny this inevitably means that their flagship would undergo, there has to be something preventing the Admech from being able to reverse engineer the design, or else you can bet your hat Mars would be pumping the things out like they were candy. It'd be a Sufficiently Big Deal that the rest of the galaxy would have heard of this pattern by now (i.e. there'd be something in official GW material about it.)

 

I'm not sure the AdMech is so keen to give away it's secrets, especially not fast. Starship take long ot build, and with AdMEch technolgoy takes even longer to analyze.

Is it too silly to assume the AdMech may take hunderds of yers to analyze, test and re-test a design before they even THINK about putting it in mass production?

Didn't they dwell for severl hunderd years on the Land Raider Crusader?

 

Doesn't that explain why it's not being produced and won't be in near future?

Edited July 31, 2012 by TrashMan

[TrashMan]

Added your proposals on the guard and your explanations for the friction between the DA and PK, as well as gene-seed degradation and AdMech to the Wiki.

The "lost in the warp" part is still there, unless I can come up with something else..

 

Hmm..I could use the "stuck on a planet caught in the warpstorm" plot, but it's cliche too.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

could you update your IA article here as well please?

 

this will make it easier for others to read it as well.

[TrashMan]

Made a small edit to the first post, but the link is still the best and freshest source of info. Easier for me to mantain and keep track of 1 source.

[TrashMan]

Necroing this thread because I finally got around to fixing the chapter history

 

to better explain their mentality I added some Ultras influence and got rid of the whole "presence in the warp" thing.

 

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Initally named Angels of Fire, this Dark Angel sucessor chapter has had a disasterous start. Shortly after it's creation, the chapter fleet and the DA training cadre was to make way to their newly assigned homeworld at the far edges of Segmentum Ultima where they would complete the training. Mere moments after entering the warp, the fleet was attacked by a chaos war fleet and beset by deamons. Exit from the warp was impossible and the geller fields were malfunctioning. A desperate battle to repel boarders followed, lasting for days. Astartes and man alike fought against a neverending horde of hellish nightmares. They sold their lives dearly, but to no avail. Just when it looked like all hope was lost, the warp relaxed it's grip. That small window of opportunity is all the chapter needed to escape the warp. But the forces of chaos followed in persuit. Answering the chapters call for help, a nearby Ultramarine strike force joined the fray, screening the retreating vessels. The chaos fleet finally fled when an imperial navy
battlefleet transited in-system.

 

The day was won, but more than 3/4 of the chapter was lost, along with the command battle barge and all senior commanders and almost the entire training cadre. The Ultramarines, who suffered moderate losses in their defense, offered to escort the battered ships to their destination and strong bonds and oaths were formed that day.
But the immaterium played two final tricks on them. As far as the rest of the universe knew, because of the chaotic nature of the warp, they were missing for 300 years. And most shockingly of all, the exposure to potent warp energies caused mutations in the gene-seed, the full extent and implication of which were not yet clear. The two survivors of the training cadre, the only holders of the secrets of the Dark Angels, viewed the mutations with suspicion. Beliving the chapter is doomed as their tainted geneseed, they returned to their parent chapter as soon as possible to report back. The Dark Angels made a decision: The Phoenix Knights are corrupt and unworthy inheritors; the Unforgiven must not be sullied by association with such marines. They must not be permitted
into the fold, and cannot be entrusted with knowledge of the Fallen.

 

While that was going on, it was time for the survivors to decide what to do, and most looked at Librarian Avernus Sidh for guidance. Yet he in turned deffered to Arturian Draco, the young but promising captain and gifted orator and diplomat.

After a lot of deliberation, Arturian turned to those that helped his chapter before - the Ultramarines. Traveling to Macragge to
personally ask for aid, he was impressed by the efficiency and glory of Ultramar and granted an audience with the Lord of Macragge. The Ultramarines helped with supplies and even offered five of their own number to help train new recruits - an offer Arturian graciously accepted, and one that will shape the future of the chapter. Arturian followed Calgars adivice and quickly contacted the Mechanicus, worried about the chapters future if the geneseed were to degrade irrevocably. The tech-priests of Mars relished in the opportunity to perform tests and study the effects of these mutations, and Arturians pledge to support the Mechanicus also helped. The gene-seed degradation turned out to be far less severe than the DA thought and was quickly stabilised. Instead of dying out, the chapter survived and thrived. But the abandoment from their parent chapter had a far more important impact on the Phoenix Knights. Without any guadance or supervision from the DA, Arturian was free to change the
chapter is ways that would be impossible otherwise - to forge a new identity and purpose.

[TrashMan]

Ok, toying with two more ideas here.

 

 

1) The chief librarian is one of the trianing cadre. He is ordered by the DA to keep tabs on the chapter and not speak of the Fallen, but he is also struck by the mutation. Possibiltiy of intruige and betrayl. Split loyaliites? Resentment towards the DA for basicly abandoning him too?

 

2) The Guard Examplar serve a double role. Not only as support, but also for gene-seed production. Remeber how the mutation causes a higher implant rejection rate? Well, to combat it I was thinking doing what the AdMech does when it creates a chapter - farm gene-seed using test slaves. Except not unworthy test-slaves forced to do so, but prime stock humans, potential astartes themselves, who consider it a honor to carry the progenoids.

It neatly circumvents the "1000 astartes" rule and the problem with astartest generally being in heavy, geavy combat (and usually an injury that kills an astartes destroys the gene-seed) and the slow gene-seed production.

[Mogsam]

Don't the test subjects live in basic paralysis to ensure they grow better?

[TrashMan]

I think they are in paralisis because they are test-SLAVES and the AdMech don't give a damn about those meatsacks.

 

I don't think it was implied or mentioned anywhere that being paralyzed was a requirement for gene-seed growing.

[Mogsam]

You'd think with only a 1000 men they wouldn't risk anything to do with their future though. It'd be pretty stupid to put any men on the front line when they are holding anything valuable - aside from the marines themselves of course.

[TrashMan]

The Exemplar pretty much provide long-range support, scouting and sniping, so they are not in as big as danger as proper Astartes.

 

I could have the gene-seed grown by select chapter serfs. Or I could have the chosen individuals taken off active duty till the progenoids mature.

 

The point of using Exemplar is that they are deemed "worthy", being former aspirants and potential future marine replacements.

 

Either way, it's a numbers game. The more gene-seed you implant and grow, the more you have to re-plant and grow again. It scales exponentially.

If a single pair can produce 1000 organs in 55 years, you are basicly doubling every 5 years. 2^10 = 1024. Seems about right.

 

Given that, using this technique you can't possibly run out of gene-seed...makes you wonder why some chapters have problems with gene-seed.

[TrashMan]

Oh, question to you DA experts.

 

Lets supose a original DA libby survived (Avernus)...and he reports back to the DA about what happened. DA are unhappy about the mutation. Order Avernus to not tell them anything about the Fallen. He is to keep an eye untill they decide what to do. Yet it turns out Avernus mutated too.

 

How would the DA react? Would they allow the librarian to live? Would they drop him like a hot potato? Would there be a measure of trust left?

Would they leave him permanantly in the babysitter position, effectively using him as a spy but also dropping him from their own chapter for all intents and purposes?

Would he see it as punishment? Betrayl?

[JusticarErictheblue]

They'd probably say he'd fallen, or killed him or locked him up.

 

And blamed Cyphus

[TrashMan]

They'd probably say he'd fallen, or killed him or locked him up.

 

And blamed Cyphus

 

LOL Who's Cyphus?

[JusticarErictheblue]

Hum....uhh....damn angels I meant cypher

 

My cousin had a dark angel he called Cyphus