Who could possibly stop the Alpha Legion?

[Gree]

Now attempting to make this as polite as possible......

 

Yellow is a color derived from the primary color red. Therefore it is a shade of red. When red is mixed with green, you get yellow. As you add more red, the yellow becomes orange. Eventually it turns back into red. If you mix red and blue you get purple. If you mix all three, you get black. Basic physics concerning the light spectrum. Didn't you play with paints in kindergarten?

 

Juevilne quips aside, Yellow is yellow, not red.

 

And yes, if the yellow was separate from the green, it would be noticeable. But the whole idea is that the yellow is blended in with the green. As in it becomes a part of the green. So when you take away the blue to look for the yellow, all you find is the yellow that made up the green because like you said, green is yellow and blue. That means, before we even add blue, there is already some yellow. The yellow we are putting will mix in with yellow that is already there and become a part of the green. Do me a favor. Get some lime green paint. Put a drop of yellow. Stir it. And then take a picture and highlight where the yellow is. That is the whole concept behind this idea. The yellow we add to the green becomes a part of the green. To be honest I don't know how to explain this any simpler. I understood this stuff about colors when I was in kindergarten. Of course I was reading third grade-level books too so I might be the exception.

 

You really are making no sense at all.

 

Look, I've noticed a pattern. You always ask a question. If it's not what you hear, you hide behind "Source! Give me a source! I'm not listening!" You asked why.

 

Because when someone makes a bunch of questionable claims that I’ve never heard before in the fluff, I want to know how they are supporting that. You have made questionable claims before that have not matched up to the fluff before.

 

And sir, I am still waiting for the sources on your claims for the psykers.

 

Someone then asked how brainwashed recruits could even make it into the Chapter. We are giving you ideas.

 

And they are not very plausible ones.

 

In fact, this sleeper personality is the only idea that has been presented. Obviously it works in the fluff because it has been done, not once, but twice.

 

Just because it was written in the fluff does not mean it was comprehensible or good. Just look at the Ventris books.

 

So to answer your original question as to why First Founding Chapters aren't infiltrated, it's because of the fans. They wouldn't like it very much. It would have a worse reaction than the Deus duology because there would be no new fans.

 

Ah, and here comes the real reason to my question.

 

Where is it stated that every aspirant goes through a deep psychic scan prior to being chosen as an aspirant? Arguably, only the Grey Knights would use that level of mental intrusion on each and every potential recruit.

 

“The need for vigilance is never treated lightly, and the Librarians of every Chapter routinely engage the minds of its Space Marines in order to ensure their purity. They are meticulous in their record keeping, chronicling any discovered deviancy for future reference.”

IA: Librarians.

 

But I would ask why would you not engage that sort of thing in a recruit, especially after in the Emperor’s Swords they found out tainted ones.

[Kol Saresk]

The sources are the aforementioned Eisenhorn and Ravenor Trilogies. Way back when on page two when I first brought it up. There is also the Soul Drinkers series which show that Space Marine Librarians are more specialized in psychic powers then we believed. Tigurius from the Ultramarines is described as an extremely powerful psyker. That's why he has fifty million different powers. Because he is stronger than the average psyker.

 

Also, the Dark Angels series in the HH, the Librarian there only has Fearsight. Or terrorsight. The special sight he got whenever he was terrified. That's all we see him use. And before you bring it up, yes I understand that he did exorcise a daemon. All that requires is a connection to the warp and chanting and knowing the daemon's name. Telepathy and telekinesis sometimes run hand-in-hand. It does with Eisenhorn. Ravenor only has telepathy. Patience only has telekinesis. Grammaticus only has his Logokine ability. So Legion is also a source.

 

And I give up on the color thing. I'm just going to suggest independent research of primary colors and the light spectrum. It is literally the only thing can think that might help you understand what Khestra, Jeske and I have been saying about yellow and green.

[Kol Saresk]

This is an example of what I was saying.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/RGB_illumination.jpg

 

Notice how the red and green come together to make yellow and how the green and blue makes cyan while the red and blue makes magenta. Together they make either white or black. That actually depends on the surface. In this case, the wall reflects the light so it is white where all of the colors met. In most cases, the colors are absorbed by the material and become black. Black is indicative of the presence of all colors while white is the absence of all colors. But don't take my word for it, there is more than enough material for independent research.

[Gree]

The sources are the aforementioned Eisenhorn and Ravenor Trilogies. Way back when on page two when I first brought it up. There is also the Soul Drinkers series which show that Space Marine Librarians are more specialized in psychic powers then we believed. Tigurius from the Ultramarines is described as an extremely powerful psyker. That's why he has fifty million different powers. Because he is stronger than the average psyker.

 

And you have not given the quotes I asked for from each of them. Thus I do not believe you.

 

Also, the Dark Angels series in the HH, the Librarian there only has Fearsight. Or terrorsight. The special sight he got whenever he was terrified. That's all we see him use.

 

We are not privy to every aspect of his training and not all Librarians have combat suited powers.

 

Also, the Dark Angels series in the HH, the Librarian there only has Fearsight. Or terrorsight. The special sight he got whenever he was terrified. That's all we see him use. And before you bring it up, yes I understand that he did exorcise a daemon. All that requires is a connection to the warp and chanting and knowing the daemon's name. Telepathy and telekinesis sometimes run hand-in-hand. It does with Eisenhorn. Ravenor only has telepathy. Patience only has telekinesis. Grammaticus only has his Logokine ability. So Legion is also a source.

 

But in any case, why would a Chapter not have a powerful telepath on hand when needed? I would imagine such a thing to be standard policy.

 

And I give up on the color thing. I'm just going to suggest independent research of primary colors and the light spectrum. It is literally the only thing can think that might help you understand what Khestra, Jeske and I have been saying about yellow and green.

 

It’s not working because you are not really making any sense dude.

 

This is an example of what I was saying.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/RGB_illumination.jpg

 

Notice how the red and green come together to make yellow and how the green and blue makes cyan while the red and blue makes magenta. Together they make either white or black. That actually depends on the surface. In this case, the wall reflects the light so it is white where all of the colors met. In most cases, the colors are absorbed by the material and become black. Black is indicative of the presence of all colors while white is the absence of all colors. But don't take my word for it, there is more than enough material for independent research.

 

They make a new color, but then they are not that color anymore. Simple.

[Kol Saresk]

I give up. There's no reasoning here. You want sources, find them yourself. Every single thread you are in turns from question-and-answer-session to arguments. And I am pretty sure the response to this will be something along the lines of present crackpot theories with no sources. You say it is too difficult to understand but Khestra and Jeske(who doesn't even have English as a first language I might add) understand it pretty well. So I really don't care anymore. I just don't. I'm leaving this thread. Nihm I'm sorry.

[Gree]

I give up. There's no reasoning here. You want sources, find them yourself. Every single thread you are in turns from question-and-answer-session to arguments. And I am pretty sure the response to this will be something along the lines of present crackpot theories with no sources. You say it is too difficult to understand but Khestra and Jeske(who doesn't even have English as a first language I might add) understand it pretty well. So I really don't care anymore. I just don't. I'm leaving this thread. Nihm I'm sorry.

 

I apologize if you do not agree with me, but I reasonably expect, when someone makes a claim, for them to support said claim. I have read Eisenhorn and Ravenor, and my findings do not support your claims. Therefore I ask sources to be provided when claims are made to verify them. Forgive me for questioning an answer that I doubted and did not think was satisfactory.

 

If you cannot provide sources for your position then I’m afraid I will have to turn a skeptical eye on said claims.

[Snejk]

Well yeah, the WB are hated rivals as well, but Roboute did kill Alpharius,

Or.. he might have, maybe not, maybe it was Omegon, or something like that..

 

Or perhaps the whole battle was an UM wet dream. or maybe a clever lie planted by the legion? Who knows...

[Hellios]

How about the Thousand Sons books? They at least show that marines tend to have weaker and stronger areas when it comes to psychic powers. Certainly normal human psykers often have very limited abilities. In theory sorcerers should be able to have a greater range of powers as their power doesn't just come from themselves.

[Excessus]

Hmm, nobody mentions the fact that it took three HUNDRED years to infiltrate Ghorstangrad, and that most of the infiltrators failed the initiation and got caught by the librarians...

 

Trying the same feat on Macragge would be doomed because of their society. The gang slums that the Emperor's Swords recruited from is described as a "disordered urban nightmare"...

[Gree]

How about the Thousand Sons books? They at least show that marines tend to have weaker and stronger areas when it comes to psychic powers. Certainly normal human psykers often have very limited abilities. In theory sorcerers should be able to have a greater range of powers as their power doesn't just come from themselves.

 

Ignoring the whole issue of how flexible psykers are, why would you not have each recruit carefully screened and checked? The purpose of psycho-indoctrination is to prevent those very sort of things from happening in the first place.

 

Hmm, nobody mentions the fact that it took three HUNDRED years to infiltrate Ghorstangrad, and that most of the infiltrators failed the initiation and got caught by the librarians...

 

I already pointed out that it takes centuries for the Alpha Legion to infiltrate, but I don’t recall anything about most of the infiltrators being caught, some but most. But some tainted recruits should have raised warning flags to the Librarium that maybe something was wrong with their recruiting pool.

 

Trying the same feat on Macragge would be doomed because of their society. The gang slums that the Emperor's Swords recruited from is described as a "disordered urban nightmare"...

 

As I mentioned before, there would be of course differences between homeworlds, but the Alpha Legion has shown they can seemingly infiltrate anywhere in the Heresy novels, including infiltrating their own chapter seemingly.

 

And if their technique would only work on hive worlds, why not try and take out Deliverance once again or one of the Imperial Fist recruiting worlds?

[Brother Nihm]

And if their technique would only work on hive worlds, why not try and take out Deliverance once again or one of the Imperial Fist recruiting worlds?

There are over a million worlds in the Imperium, I guess they would just go out and locate another suitable recruiting ground.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay I know I said I wasn't going to come back, but I'll lie this once. Gree, what is your source on how flexible psykers are?

[Gree]

Okay I know I said I wasn't going to come back, but I'll lie this once. Gree, what is your source on how flexible psykers are?

 

When did I claim that? I was the one questioning you on why it had to be a high-level psyker and why a Librarian would not seemingly do that sort of thing (As is their job)

 

Obviously not all psykers posses the same abilities and skillset, but having a telepathic Librarian scan recruits is a blindingly obvious necessity.

 

(Oh, and you ignore the fact that I tried to move away from the issue as it was irrelevant to said argument at hand. This is a blatant attempt at scoring points, nothing more.)

 

And if their technique would only work on hive worlds, why not try and take out Deliverance once again or one of the Imperial Fist recruiting worlds?

There are over a million worlds in the Imperium, I guess they would just go out and locate another suitable recruiting ground.

 

Well such recruits would not be utilized until it was time to take down the chapter, in other words until it was too late to move away from the homeworld.

[Excessus]

As I mentioned before, there would be of course differences between homeworlds, but the Alpha Legion has shown they can seemingly infiltrate anywhere in the Heresy novels, including infiltrating their own chapter seemingly.

 

And if their technique would only work on hive worlds, why not try and take out Deliverance once again or one of the Imperial Fist recruiting worlds?

Yeah, because when they infiltrated Deliverance the inquisition existed to flush the cults and any rebellious elements out, and the legion was in a prime condition...after almost being annihilated in the freakin dropsdite massacre! The Alpha Legion would never have made it on that scale if it weren't for the fact that the RG were desperate and worn out, and according to the book a prime factor was also the unlikeliness of the thing. Nobody was expecting it, that was their prime defense, nobody was looking for them...

 

You are ignoring the vast number of conditions that was necessary for it to succeed. After Deliverance Lost they started with the geneseed screening business and were very much aware of their capabilities as infiltrators...after Ghorstangrad I can bet the imperium's security protocols regarding psychic screening was updated...

 

 

 

 

...also, why do you seem to believe that psychic powers are a form of science? That was the Thousand Sons outlook on it, not the rest of the imperium's. In a universe where mechanics is religion and innovation is heresy, the psychic powers are very much hokus pokus and more of an art than a science!

[Gree]

Yeah, because when they infiltrated Deliverance the inquisition existed to flush the cults and any rebellious elements out, and the legion was in a prime condition...after almost being annihilated in the freakin dropsdite massacre!

 

The Inquisition was founded after the Heresy, not during it.

 

The Alpha Legion would never have made it on that scale if it weren't for the fact that the RG were desperate and worn out, and according to the book a prime factor was also the unlikeliness of the thing. Nobody was expecting it, that was their prime defense, nobody was looking for them...

 

And did the Crimson Consuls or Emperor’s Swords expect Alpha Legion infiltration at any moment?

 

You are ignoring the vast number of conditions that was necessary for it to succeed. After Deliverance Lost they started with the geneseed screening business and were very much aware of their capabilities as infiltrators...after Ghorstangrad I can bet the imperium's security protocols regarding psychic screening was updated...

 

Didn’t do the Crimson Consuls much good now didn’t it?

 

And whose to say the Imperium even knows just how exactly the Emperor’s Swords fell?

 

...also, why do you seem to believe that psychic powers are a form of science? That was the Thousand Sons outlook on it, not the rest of the imperium's. In a universe where mechanics is religion and innovation is heresy, the psychic powers are very much hokus pokus and more of an art than a science!

 

Where did I say it was a science or imply such a thing?

[Excessus]

#1) Oops, I maybe missed a word there, OBVIOUSLY the inquisition did not exists during the heresy...and the sarcasm didn't translate well it seems...

 

#2) I have no idea, never read it and did not comment about that piece of fluff in any way...

 

#3) No idea about the consuls, but I bet the imperium know how it was done, they are the favorites after all...for all I know Draigo probably found a book about it somewhere after doing some unlikely thing...

 

#4) Lost word again, I meant the plural version of the sentence...

 

 

Frankly I don't care much for when people just paint up the Alpha Legion as a mary-sue legion. They have had their fair share of losses as well, and even though the vanilla marines all use the codex, their cultures are very much different making the difficulty to infiltrate them quite a formidable variable. I very much doubt they could infiltrate and destroy the smurfs like they did the emps swords...

 

I haven't read the book but from reading about it on lexicanum, the infiltration process was not even close to the scale it was with the swords. Most of the chapter was taken out by external factors a bit at the time. There will always be instances where security is lax, the Alpha Legion abuses those holes in security for their purpose...I doubt a former legion chapter would have those security breaches. The Alpha Legion is choosing these low-tier chapters for a reason...

[Gree]

#3) No idea about the consuls, but I bet the imperium know how it was done, they are the favorites after all...for all I know Draigo probably found a book about it somewhere after doing some unlikely thing...

 

It is explicitly stated by the Alpha Legionary in charge that he will not let any Consuls live or word get out so that his tactics cannot be discovered.

 

Frankly I don't care much for when people just paint up the Alpha Legion as a mary-sue legion. They have had their fair share of losses as well, and even though the vanilla marines all use the codex, their cultures are very much different making the difficulty to infiltrate them quite a formidable variable. I very much doubt they could infiltrate and destroy the smurfs like they did the emps swords...

 

How many times has the Alpha Legion lost battle again? I'm having difficulty recalling any straight military defeats off the top of my head.

 

I haven't read the book but from reading about it on lexicanum, the infiltration process was not even close to the scale it was with the swords. Most of the chapter was taken out by external factors a bit at the time. There will always be instances where security is lax, the Alpha Legion abuses those holes in security for their purpose...I doubt a former legion chapter would have those security breaches. The Alpha Legion is choosing these low-tier chapters for a reason...

 

There was no indication that the Consuls had lax security or anything like that. They were obvious stand-ins for the Ultramarines.

[Excessus]

Yeah, getting infiltrated by the Alpha Legion says nothing about lax security? Lol

 

I'm not saying it's lax by human standards, but by astartes standards. Nothing is black or white, it's a greyscale...and I don't think that every single chapter out there is 100% secure. It's just the Alpha legion way to find those that dip below that number...so far there has been at least two during these 10k years, but only two where it worked at least...

 

They got pretty demolished at Vraks, the whole faithless warband was annihilated or captured by the Dark Angels. And for the imperium to declare them wiped out(three times) they must have had several harsh defeats, otherwise they would not make such a statement...three times in a row... (oh, we took down a cell, surely they must be wiped out by now, since we don't really know their MO after these 10k years of infiltration and rebellions...yeah, even they are not that stupid)

[Gree]

Yeah, getting infiltrated by the Alpha Legion says nothing about lax security? Lol

There is no remark or indication in the story that the Consuls had insufficient security. Menawhile the Alpha Legionary boasts of simply being superior.

 

They got pretty demolished at Vraks, the whole faithless warband was annihilated or captured by the Dark Angels. And for the imperium to declare them wiped out(three times) they must have had several harsh defeats, otherwise they would not make such a statement...three times in a row... (oh, we took down a cell, surely they must be wiped out by now, since we don't really know their MO after these 10k years of infiltration and rebellions...yeah, even they are not that stupid)

 

So….one defeat then. That’s not much.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, getting infiltrated by the Alpha Legion says nothing about lax security? Lol

There is no remark or indication in the story that the Consuls had insufficient security. Menawhile the Alpha Legionary boasts of simply being superior.

Except for the part where the Chapter Master told the Librarian to go through a larger recruiting spree and sais to go even further into the underhive where they have never gone before. I'll find you the page number later.

[Gree]

Yeah, getting infiltrated by the Alpha Legion says nothing about lax security? Lol

There is no remark or indication in the story that the Consuls had insufficient security. Menawhile the Alpha Legionary boasts of simply being superior.

Except for the part where the Chapter Master told the Librarian to go through a larger recruiting spree and sais to go even further into the underhive where they have never gone before. I'll find you the page number later.

 

And why did they not check the areas of the place they were recruting from? Why leave some areas unchecked?

 

There is no indcation that said practices of the Crimson Consuls were less efficent or secure than the Ultramarines.

 

And I thought you said you were dropping out of the thread?

[Vesper]

Yeah, getting infiltrated by the Alpha Legion says nothing about lax security? Lol

There is no remark or indication in the story that the Consuls had insufficient security. Menawhile the Alpha Legionary boasts of simply being superior.

 

They got pretty demolished at Vraks, the whole faithless warband was annihilated or captured by the Dark Angels. And for the imperium to declare them wiped out(three times) they must have had several harsh defeats, otherwise they would not make such a statement...three times in a row... (oh, we took down a cell, surely they must be wiped out by now, since we don't really know their MO after these 10k years of infiltration and rebellions...yeah, even they are not that stupid)

 

So….one defeat then. That’s not much.

 

That's still more than the Space Wolves. Plus getting his Primarch killed, while not being a tactical defeat, is a loss. Even if it's not crippling for the Alpha Legion, it is still a loss.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, getting infiltrated by the Alpha Legion says nothing about lax security? Lol

There is no remark or indication in the story that the Consuls had insufficient security. Menawhile the Alpha Legionary boasts of simply being superior.

Except for the part where the Chapter Master told the Librarian to go through a larger recruiting spree and sais to go even further into the underhive where they have never gone before. I'll find you the page number later.

 

And why did they not check the areas of the place they were recruting from? Why leave some areas unchecked?

 

There is no indcation that said practices of the Crimson Consuls were less efficent or secure than the Ultramarines.

 

And I thought you said you were dropping out of the thread?

I was. Refer to my previous post.

 

And why would I know why they left part of their recruiting grounds unsecured. Ask the author who wrote the book. If I had the book on hand, I would give the author's name.

 

And why do you care if I am here or not. I thought I was in it for the points.

[Gree]

Yeah, getting infiltrated by the Alpha Legion says nothing about lax security? Lol

There is no remark or indication in the story that the Consuls had insufficient security. Menawhile the Alpha Legionary boasts of simply being superior.

 

They got pretty demolished at Vraks, the whole faithless warband was annihilated or captured by the Dark Angels. And for the imperium to declare them wiped out(three times) they must have had several harsh defeats, otherwise they would not make such a statement...three times in a row... (oh, we took down a cell, surely they must be wiped out by now, since we don't really know their MO after these 10k years of infiltration and rebellions...yeah, even they are not that stupid)

 

So….one defeat then. That’s not much.

 

That's still more than the Space Wolves. Plus getting his Primarch killed, while not being a tactical defeat, is a loss. Even if it's not crippling for the Alpha Legion, it is still a loss.

 

If Alpharius was killed............., or if Eskrador even happened in the first place.

[Gree]

And why would I know why they left part of their recruiting grounds unsecured. Ask the author who wrote the book. If I had the book on hand, I would give the author's name.

 

Which is why I’m criticising it.

 

And why do you care if I am here or not. I thought I was in it for the points.

You do realize that sort of thing is generally frowned upon right by the mods?

 

EDIT: Removed uneeded comments.