Vesper Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Let's stop ad hominem madness and go back to the topic. @ Gree : I do think Eskrador happened due to its presence in the Alpha Legion's IA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Let's stop ad hominem madness and go back to the topic. @ Gree : I do think Eskrador happened due to its presence in the Alpha Legion's IA. The same IA that notes that the Alpha Legion's history is filled with lies and misdirection and has the Ultramairnes themselves doubting the existance of the battle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I knew you'd say something like that :). I just know what GW said to us, even if I think the light hasn't been fully done on what really happened on Eskrador. So I'd say it's too early to discuss those things, I hope BL will tell us more about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 How many times has the Alpha Legion lost battle again? I'm having difficulty recalling any straight military defeats off the top of my head. There's the hunt for Voldurius, and are the Dawn of War series canon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 How many times has the Alpha Legion lost battle again? I'm having difficulty recalling any straight military defeats off the top of my head. There's the hunt for Voldurius, and are the Dawn of War series canon? I know of that, but I’m hesitant to regard them as ‘’real’’ Alpha Legion victories, as the only thing they had in common with the Alpha Legion described in the Heresy books and the IA was the name, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 To be fair, the Alpha Legion failed their primary objective of destroying the Raven Guard in Deliverance Lost as well... But since apparently you are the deciding factor about what actual Alpha Legion defeats that counts as "real" Alpha Legion defeats, I don't see much point in continuing that discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 To be fair, the Alpha Legion failed their primary objective of destroying the Raven Guard in Deliverance Lost as well... Was the exact objective specified? I know Omegon had plans all over the place. I know they corrupted the geneseed. But since apparently you are the deciding factor about what actual Alpha Legion defeats that counts as "real" Alpha Legion defeats, I don't see much point in continuing that discussion... I’m not sure why anyone would consider Lord “METAL BAWKSES!’’ Carron to be a good representation of an Alpha Legion commander or Voldorious’s frontal charge in a massed horde tactics to be anything like that of the infiltrating secretive Alpha Legion. Those were defeats against generic Chaos Marine forces, not defeats against the Alpha Legion’s unique tactics and methodology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Let's stop ad hominem madness and go back to the topic. @ Gree : I do think Eskrador happened due to its presence in the Alpha Legion's IA. The same IA that notes that the Alpha Legion's history is filled with lies and misdirection and has the Ultramairnes themselves doubting the existance of the battle? The Ultramarines don't doubt that the battle took place. They doubt the veracity of a report, that describes events unfolding after the Ultramarines made landfall and that ends with them leaving after having been "soundly beaten". The arrival of both forces on Eskrador and beginning of the conflict are described by an omniscient narrator. On top of that, the whole incident is retold by an omniscient narrator in FFG's Death Watch - First Founding. How many times has the Alpha Legion lost battle again? I'm having difficulty recalling any straight military defeats off the top of my head. There's the hunt for Voldurius, and are the Dawn of War series canon? I know of that, but I’m hesitant to regard them as ‘’real’’ Alpha Legion victories, as the only thing they had in common with the Alpha Legion described in the Heresy books and the IA was the name, nothing else. The story about Voldorius was first established in the SM Codex - that's as canonical as it gets. Not quite fair that you're willing to disregard certain fluff because it doesn't suit you, while expecting others to hand you official sources and quotes for each claim. Repent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 The Ultramarines don't doubt that the battle took place. They doubt the veracity of a report, that describes events unfolding after the Ultramarines made landfall and that ends with them leaving after having been "soundly beaten".The arrival of both forces on Eskrador and beginning of the conflict are described by an omniscient narrator. On top of that, the whole incident is retold by an omniscient narrator in FFG's Death Watch - First Founding. And right at the start of the Alpha Legion article in both books it’s pointed out that the history of the Alpha Legion is filled with lies and misinformation and that accurate facts are hard to come by. The story about Voldorius was first established in the SM Codex - that's as canonical as it gets. Not quite fair that you're willing to disregard certain fluff because it doesn't suit you, while expecting others to hand you official sources and quotes for each claim. Repent! The story about Voldorius refers to his forces as “Night Lord invaders” as well as Alpha Legion, which leads me to believe that they were originally Night Lords before being rewritten to Alpha Legionaries at the last second. So with that kind of internal editing it already causes me to look at it dubiously. And it is quite fair. I ask for sources, accepting those sources is quite another matter entirely. I'm not sure what the problem is. Does anyone seriously regard Voldorious’s warband as representative of the Alpha Legions signature tactics and operative style? Yes it is established in the Codex, but the Alpha Legion acts nothing like the Alpha Legion as described in the Index Astartes or Black Library books. I'm perfectly willing to write them off as some offshoot warband that went totally off the rails in regards to Alpha Legion tactical doctrine. EDIT: Let me rephrase it. In stories were the Alpha Legion operated with their signature methodology and tactics, how many defeats did the Alpha Legion suffer in said stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 If a source is a source, do you have a right to deny it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 If a source is a source, do you have a right to deny it? Of course. 40k is all about interpretation. Things may be canon, or make no sense, but ultimately it is all up to the fans to decide what is true and what is valid. i may disagree with you and point out reasons why your interpretation makes little sense, but that is your right to accept or deny whatever you wish. Se A D-B's "loose canon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 In the Long Games, the Alpha Legion made sure that no survivors escaped to reveal what happened. And once they did a test run, taking out a First Founding chapter is a natural progression. Surely the loss of a First Founding Chapter would outweigh any possible investigation? No. A thousand marines is still thousand marines, no matter the colours, so it is better to use it ten times on chapters that are not famous than one time on famous chapter and have lockdown for future. AL ale obsessed with their tactics being kept in secret, so from their viewpoint if someone figured out it would be disaster. Besides there is matter of logistics, infiltrating world on god forbidden place is MUCH easier than infiltrating good known world. For example infiltrating university in Slovakia is bazilion times easier than US military command. I just read rest of the topic. Man you are being unfair. You complain that AL are Marry Sue-ish but you are happy to ignore that I mentioned, that in Legion. But you wanted defeats, so here is complete list: M32--------------- In a proclamation by the High Lords of Terra the last splinters of the Legion are declared eradicated. --------------- Sources US WD #276/UK WD #277: Index Astartes - Alpha Legion by Graham Davey Reprinted in: Index Astartes IV ______________________________________________________________________________ M33 --------------- The Legion is officially declared eradicated for the second time. --------------- Sources US WD #276/UK WD #277: Index Astartes - Alpha Legion by Graham Davey Reprinted in: Index Astartes IV ______________________________________________________________________________ 343.M37 The first Assault on Cephian IV --------------- The Alpha Legion's plans on Cephian IV are foiled when the Black Templars defeat the corrupted warrior cults among the natives. The Legionnaires disappear but prepare for a return. --------------- Sources UK WD #311: Assault on Cephian IV, battle scenario by Graham McNeill ______________________________________________________________________________ 361.M37 The Defense of Cobalt Valley --------------- The forces of Orik the Vile invade the Mihok system, located some thirty light years from Cadia, and clash with the Imperial Guard on Mihok Secundus. The Guard succeeds in defending Cobalt Valley from the Alpha Legion in a series of gruelling battles. --------------- Sources US WD #240: Glorious battles of the Imperial Guard (pt. 2) by Gavin Thorpe Lexicanum link ______________________________________________________________________________ M39 The Purge of Arthas Moloch --------------- Arthas Moloch, an "artefact world" that harbours the ruins of a pre-human civilization as well as a whole nation of cultists and mutants under the reign of the Alpha Legion is finally cleansed by the Emperor's Scythes chapter. The Inquisition believes in a possible connection between Arthas Moloch and the sudden disloyalty of Tau Commander Farsight during the Damocles Crusade. --------------- Sources US WD #288 WebArchive link to uk.games-workshop.com ______________________________________________________________________________ M39 --------------- The Legion is officially declared eradicated for the third time. --------------- Sources US WD #276/UK WD #277: Index Astartes - Alpha Legion by Graham Davey Reprinted in: Index Astartes IV ______________________________________________________________________________ Before 740.M41 * The Tartarus Campaign --------------- In order to seize the daemon artefact "Maledictum" undisturbed from the Inquisition and the Eldar, the Alpha Legion orchestrates an Ork Waaagh on Tartarus, an altar world of Khorne. Despite having both the Orks and an approaching Warpstorm to their disadvantage, the Blood Ravens 3rd Company manages to pursue and defeat the wire-puller, Chaos Sorcerer Sindri Myr, after his ascension to daemonhood. --------------- Sources Dawn of War, RTS game Dawn of War, by C.S. Goto The Dawn Of War Omnibus, revised collection of the first three DoW novels. ______________________________________________________________________________ Before 740.M41 * --------------- The Alpha Legion engages Ultramarines and Blood Ravens on Lorn V. --------------- Sources Dawn of War: Tempest, by C.S. Goto The Dawn Of War Omnibus, revised collection of the first three DoW novels. ______________________________________________________________________________ After 740.M41 * The Kaurava Conflict --------------- The Alpha Legion shows up in the wake of a sudden Warpstorm over Kaurava IV and wipes out the 253rd and 254th Conservitor Regiments of the Imperial Guard in a single blow. Khorne Lord Firaeveus Carron plans to make the Warpstorm persistent and let it engulf the entire star system. --------------- Sources Dawn of War: Soulstorm, RTS game * date taken from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade ______________________________________________________________________________ 812-813.M41 The Luxor Uprising --------------- In the Departmento Munitorum-dominated Helioret Sector, the cruel ruling Oligarchs of the industrial world of Luxor are overthrown by a workers uprising backed by the Alpha Legion. Several of the Legion's warbands make planetfall and launch surprise attacks to support the revolt. The planet itself is vital to the wider supply of war materials to the northern Segmentum Ultima. The Novamarines Chapter fears that Luxor's fall could start a chain reaction that might leave a hundred other worlds vulnerable. Without the time to wait for reinforcements, the Novamarines gather what forces they can and attack immediately before the renegades manage to crush all local resistance and become entrenched. The loyalist Marines manage to take out the untrained rebels, and then cut off the Alpha Legion from the rest of the rebel forces, leaving them leaderless. A heavy Terminator-led attack strikes the deathblow and finishes the encircled Legionnaires, putting the few survivors to flight. --------------- Sources Imperial Armour IX: The Badab War I, p.119 ______________________________________________________________________________ 820.M41 The Siege of Vraks (7th year of the siege & onwards) --------------- The warband of Arkos the Faithless emerges from the Eye of Terror and joins the Vraksian rebels in battle against the Death Korps. He plans the arrival of allied warbands, hoping to bring the entire Scarus Sector to its knees. The Dark Angels under Chaptermaster Azrael (who suspects Arkos of possessing information about the Fallen) fail to capture him.[1] In a dark ritual, Arkos' sorcerers call his allies from the forces of Nurgle and Khorne to the besieged planet. Ten warbands and other outlaws arrive and claim orbital control.[2] In the following years, Arkos directs the siege from the shadows until Lord Zhufor of the Skulltakers takes direct command. When the siege draws to a close, with the imperial forces breaking through, Arkos and 14 of his men are captured alive by the Angels of Absolution Chapter. Thus, the Angels of Absolution complete the task of the Dark Angels. The rest of Arkos' warband is presumed destroyed.[3] --------------- Sources [1]Imperial Armour V: The Siege of Vraks I, p.47, pp.54-58 [2]Imperial Armour VI: The Siege of Vraks II, pp.6-13, p.26 [3]Imperial Armour VII: The Siege of Vraks III, pp.17/18, pp.79-84, p.140 ______________________________________________________________________________ 859.M41 Assault on Zoran --------------- The White Scars have send their "Master of the Hunt", Kor'Sarro Khan after Daemon Prince Kernax Voldorius. On the icy world of Zoran, the forces of Voldorius take a half-buried Imperator Titan as their base and cause an uprising. The Marines of the Blood Angels try to regain control of the planet but fail to drive the Legionnaires from their base. Only the arrival of Kor'Sarro Khan and his White Scars helps them turn the tide. Voldorius manages to escape while almost all of his followers are killed. --------------- Sources 5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p.15 ______________________________________________________________________________ 865.M41 The Purge of Modanna --------------- The White Scars' hunt for Voldorius continues. On the battlefields of Modanna, Voldorius is forced to leave the furthest fortress in order to escape his pursuers. --------------- Sources 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p.49 ______________________________________________________________________________ 871.M41 The Liberation of Quintus --------------- The forces of Kernax Voldorius take control of Quintus and fight against elements of the Raven Guard under Captain Shrike and the White Scars under Kor'sarro Khan. The Space Marines penetrate the defences of the planetary capital and slay the Daemon Prince in a bloody showdown. Kor'Sarro Khan claims his skull and adds it to the numerous severed heads that decorate the passage to the White Scars' Fortress Monastery. --------------- Sources 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, pp.42/43 Hunt for Voldorius by Andy Hoare ______________________________________________________________________________ Incidents with no given date: _______________________________________________________________________________ ??? The Fall of Medusa V --------------- When the Warpstorm known as Van Grothe's Rapidity envelops Medusa V, the planet becomes a warzone for all major factions of the galaxy. The forces of Chaos are led by one of Abaddons Chosen, the sorcerer Ygethmor. His host includes four Black Legion companies and allies from other Legions and renegades. The Alpha Legion lends its strength by sending spies to the hives of Medusa V which stir rebellion before the initial assault. In the end however, Ygethmor is defeated. --------------- Sources The Fall of Medusa V (booklet), p.17 ______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________ ??? The Invasion of Thagra IV --------------- The Legion invades Thagra IV and tries to turn the mutated labor population against the local authority. With the incursion of the White Panthers Chapter the Alpha Legion retreats, leaving their former allies at the mercy of the Astartes. --------------- Sources Inquisitor Rulebook Downloadable .pdf can be found here under "Inq Rulebook part2 .pdf" .pdf-page 25 of 45: Rules and background for the mutant Quovandius Lexicanum link ______________________________________________________________________________ ??? The Invasion of Thagra IV --------------- The Legion invades Thagra IV and tries to turn the mutated labor population against the local authority. With the incursion of the White Panthers Chapter the Alpha Legion retreats, leaving their former allies at the mercy of the Astartes. --------------- Sources Inquisitor Rulebook Downloadable .pdf can be found here under "Inq Rulebook part2 .pdf" .pdf-page 25 of 45: Rules and background for the mutant Quovandius Lexicanum link This is for demonstration I hope that you will not pick and argue about every single defeat that is not defeat in your eyes. This is from AL timeline from Serpents Lair forum and if you examine it, you will see that defeats are mentioned in roughly half of timeline. That is not Marry Sue-ish I think. To perfectly correct I have to ask: how much defeats of first founding founding chapters are mentioned at all? I do not want to discuss details of psychic probing and so on, but some of your arguments are based on wrong assumptions: You are assuming that every chapter out there has precisely the same recruiting process which is impossible when we consider resources, time, circumstances etc. at chapters disposal. I doubt that recruitment process of even ONE single chapter has never ever ever changed and always stayed the same. You are assuming that recruitment process is perfect. (Then why some marines turn traitor?) You are assuming that legion of superhumans specialising in infiltration and covert operations for more than 10 000 years is unable to find or create means of infiltrating. Common son! But then again even those means are not perfect, every infiltration is risky business and taking down chapter is a whole levels above it. So I will repeat myself, sooner or later this plan or part of it is going to fail and be revealed and it is better to use it to do maximum damage - taking down 10 chapters in secret is IMO more harmful than taking down 1st founding chapter and then risk huge investigations, which may lead to compromising of agents stricter security standards and so on. And there is principle of parsimony as well, you do not infiltrate and destroy chapter (what will last 300 years) when you can manipulate nids/orks/others to destroy chapter in much shorter timespan. Hopefully I don't sound offensive, no offense was meant. English is not my first language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 And if their technique would only work on hive worlds, why not try and take out Deliverance once again or one of the Imperial Fist recruiting worlds?There are over a million worlds in the Imperium, I guess they would just go out and locate another suitable recruiting ground. Well such recruits would not be utilized until it was time to take down the chapter, in other words until it was too late to move away from the homeworld.I believe that that depends on too many factors to be considered the way all chapters function. For example, how often a chapter recruits, the size of the 'recruitment-pool' and quality of genes versus implants, how big the chapter is, if they have any reserve forces or reserve recruits etc. it all depends. Some would be more vulnerable than others, surely. On a side-note, I could easily see the AL go for a large scale infiltration against a chapter weakened by a recent (and particularly gruesome) crusade/campaign. Imagine the glorious sabotage/assassinations.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 No. A thousand marines is still thousand marines, no matter the colours, so it is better to use it ten times on chapters that are not famous than one time on famous chapter and have lockdown for future. No they are not. First Founding Chapters are more famous and carry more weight than some random later founding chapter. (See the Emperor’s Gift.) AL ale obsessed with their tactics being kept in secret, so from their viewpoint if someone figured out it would be disaster. And that would be a tradeoff that would surely be worth it with the hypothetical destruction of the Ultramarines. I just read rest of the topic. Man you are being unfair. You complain that AL are Marry Sue-ish but you are happy to ignore that I mentioned, that in Legion. I am being perfectly fair. And you mentioned what in Legion? This is for demonstration I hope that you will not pick and argue about every single defeat that is not defeat in your eyes. This is from AL timeline from Serpents Lair forum and if you examine it, you will see that defeats are mentioned in roughly half of timeline. That is not Marry Sue-ish I think. But at many of those run into the “contradictory Alpha Legion problem.’’ Such as Voldoroius or Carron, in which the Alpha Legion did not operate with their usual tactics or methodology, which causes me (As I explained earlier) to write them off as divergent warbands. In other cases the Alpha Legion themselves were not directly involved or the so called ‘’defeats’’ we have barely any information on (Like the High Lords claiming them to be destroyed. We know nothing of the actual context. Was it in the aftermath of some great battle?) But yes, thank you very much for actually providing sources and quotes. That was what I was looking for. You are assuming that every chapter out there has precisely the same recruiting process which is impossible when we consider resources, time, circumstances etc. at chapters disposal. I doubt that recruitment process of even ONE single chapter has never ever ever changed and always stayed the same. I assume certain standards are held to Codex Chapters, as one of the dictates of the Codex Astartes was to handle new forms of recruitment and implantation. You are assuming that recruitment process is perfect. (Then why some marines turn traitor?) I assume it is good enough that entire companies should not be compromised. You are assuming that legion of superhumans specialising in infiltration and covert operations for more than 10 000 years is unable to find or create means of infiltrating. Common son! I dislike the idea of the Alpha Legion seemingly being able to infiltrate anywhere and annihilate a Codex Chapter with the same ease as the Crimson Consuls. I am fine with the prior depictions of them though. But then again even those means are not perfect, every infiltration is risky business and taking down chapter is a whole levels above it. So I will repeat myself, sooner or later this plan or part of it is going to fail and be revealed and it is better to use it to do maximum damage - taking down 10 chapters in secret is IMO more harmful than taking down 1st founding chapter and then risk huge investigations, which may lead to compromising of agents stricter security standards and so on. I disagree. Taking down a First Founding Chapter will do far more damage in terms of morale and faith than ten successor chapters. And said Alpha Legionary in the story was planning to go after the Auroras, a prominent Second Founding Chapter, so the ‘’Investigation excuse.’’ Does not work. Hopefully I don't sound offensive, no offense was meant. English is not my first language. You are insulting. Do not refer to me as ‘’son.’’ Actually I was going to say this entire thing is getting increasingly de-railed, much of these concepts are not even related to the OP anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 And right at the start of the Alpha Legion article in both books it’s pointed out that the history of the Alpha Legion is filled with lies and misinformation and that accurate facts are hard to come by. Whoop dee doo. The Ultramarines still don't doubt that the battle took place. And it is quite fair. I ask for sources, accepting those sources is quite another matter entirely. I'm not sure what the problem is. Of course. 40k is all about interpretation. Things may be canon, or make no sense, but ultimately it is all up to the fans to decide what is true and what is valid. i may disagree with you and point out reasons why your interpretation makes little sense, but that is your right to accept or deny whatever you wish. Your interpretation of what should be canon is most likely nothing like mine. Determining if something is official material is used as a common ground for these kinds of discussions. That's how it usually works in fluff threads. Why else ask for sources at all? No they are not. First Founding Chapters are more famous and carry more weight than some random later founding chapter. (See the Emperor’s Gift.) As long as nobody disagrees with the portrayal of a first founding chapter in the Emperor's Gift ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 No. A thousand marines is still thousand marines, no matter the colours, so it is better to use it ten times on chapters that are not famous than one time on famous chapter and have lockdown for future. No they are not. First Founding Chapters are more famous and carry more weight than some random later founding chapter. (See the Emperor’s Gift.) AL ale obsessed with their tactics being kept in secret, so from their viewpoint if someone figured out it would be disaster. And that would be a tradeoff that would surely be worth it with the hypothetical destruction of the Ultramarines. Considering that operations of this scale would be much riskier than I will stick with no. I would be rather pragmatic and destroy 10 000 marines than 1000 marines and do some moral damage. I am being perfectly fair. And you mentioned what in Legion? Sorry but you are not. I do not wanna insult you, but If there have been several people who nicely explained problem every one got it except you, that is not perfectly fair. You quoted that post: In Legion there are several references of not all things going as AL planed and AL is also being manipulated. But at many of those run into the “contradictory Alpha Legion problem.’’ Such as Voldoroius or Carron, in which the Alpha Legion did not operate with their usual tactics or methodology, which causes me (As I explained earlier) to write them off as divergent warbands. In other cases the Alpha Legion themselves were not directly involved or the so called ‘’defeats’’ we have barely any information on (Like the High Lords claiming them to be destroyed. We know nothing of the actual context. Was it in the aftermath of some great battle?) A defeat is a defeat regardless of interpretation. All of those were mentioned as AL warbands. As you mentioned earlier green is green. AL warband is AL warband. I assume certain standards are held to Codex Chapters, as one of the dictates of the Codex Astartes was to handle new forms of recruitment and implantation. Nihm explained it pretty nicely. I assume it is good enough that entire companies should not be compromised. Yet there were whole companies and even chapters turning to chaos. And I don't think that "entire companies" is fitting term, it was few companies of two chapters, that can be less than 0,1% of all SM companies. I dislike the idea of the Alpha Legion seemingly being able to infiltrate anywhere and annihilate a Codex Chapter with the same ease as the Crimson Consuls. I am fine with the prior depictions of them though. Most of companies were destroyed without involvement of AL, they just kept Consuls misinformed. I disagree. Taking down a First Founding Chapter will do far more damage in terms of morale and faith than ten successor chapters. I agree but in terms of pragmatism (and Alphas are pragmatic) it is more reasonable to take down successors. And said Alpha Legionary in the story was planning to go after the Auroras, a prominent Second Founding Chapter, so the ‘’Investigation excuse.’’ Does not work. Last time I checked, Auroras were fine, so he a) is lying ;) failed on that. You are insulting. Do not refer to me as ‘’son.’’ I am sorry I thought it was figure of speech similar to common man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Whoop dee doo. The Ultramarines still don't doubt that the battle took place. You forget the root of the problem. Who says that al the information on the battle is even accurate in the first place or that the Alpha Legion even lost Alpharius? Your interpretation of what should be canon is most likely nothing like mine. Determining if something is official material is used as a common ground for these kinds of discussions. That's how it usually works in fluff threads. Why else ask for sources at all? Because people make claims. Claims that I often have never read about. If claims are being used in a debate then I need citation or else I look at them with a skeptical eye. As long as nobody disagrees with the portrayal of a first founding chapter in the Emperor's Gift ... That is there right or interpretation. Although First Founding Chapters being prominent is hardly something invented in that novel, and A D-B is usually good with keeping the fluff in lines with the Codices and the IA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Considering that operations of this scale would be much riskier than I will stick with no. I wiould be rather pragmatic and destroy 10 000 marines than 1000 marines and do some moral damage. Destroying a First Founding chapter is hardly ‘’some moral damage.’’ Sorry but you are not. I do not wanna insult you, but If there have been several people who nicely explained problem every one got it except you, that is not perfectly fair. I have seen the explanations and I find them wanting. I will continue to find them wanting until a better explanation has been presented. A defeat is a defeat regardless of interpretation. Not is not, given the scant information and context on each of these and the fact that the Alpha Legion is shrouded in mystery. All of those were mentioned as AL warbands. As you mentioned earlier green is green. AL warband is AL warband. Green is not green. The Chaos Legions splinter and form different factions. I do not regard Voldorius’s warband as mainstream Alpha Legion, because they do not act like mainstream Alpha Legion. I also note you ignore my revised question that I put forth about were the Alpha Legion were defeated using their usual tactics. You have ignored that twice now actually. Nihm explained it pretty nicely. See above. I did not find his explanation plausible or satisfactory. Yet there were whole companies and even chapters turning to chaos. And I don't think that "entire companies" is fitting term, it was few companies of two chapters, that can be less than 0,1% of all SM companies. I speak in the context of companies in each individual Codex Chapter, not the Astartes as a whole. Most of companies were destroyed without involvement of AL, they just kept Consuls misinformed. They still infiltrated both chapters and has a direct hand in the destruction of the Consuls. Point stands. I agree but in terms of pragmatism (and Alphas are pragmatic) it is more reasonable to take down successors. It is more pragmatic to break the spirit of the Imperium. You can do far more damage that way. Last time I checked, Auroras were fine, so he a) is lying ;) failed on that. We do not know when the destruction fo the Crimson Consuls occurred. For all we know he may have not even gotten started yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 You forget the root of the problem. Who says that al the information on the battle is even accurate in the first place or that the Alpha Legion even lost Alpharius? Nope. The root of the problem is that you claimed that the Index Astartes article stated that the Ultramarines doubted the existence of the battle. It doesn't. Your interpretation of what should be canon is most likely nothing like mine. Determining if something is official material is used as a common ground for these kinds of discussions. That's how it usually works in fluff threads. Why else ask for sources at all? Because people make claims. Claims that I often have never read about. If claims are being used in a debate then I need citation or else I look at them with a skeptical eye. You're skeptical of a claim because you've never read about it in the official material and you remain skeptical of a claim until it is backed by official material. We're talking canon then. That is there right or interpretation. Although First Founding Chapters being prominent is hardly something invented in that novel, and A D-B is usually good with keeping the fluff in lines with the Codices and the IA. Wouldn't matter unless official material trumped personal interpretation. Which it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Nope. The root of the problem is that you claimed that the Index Astartes article stated that the Ultramarines doubted the existence of the battle. It doesn't. Yes it does. Right at the start of the article it explains everything about the Alpha Legion is full of lies and misinformation. "Following the Horus Heresy, thousands of records, archives and libraries were destroyed to purge ad mention, indeed any memory, of the traitors. Ten millennia later there are now billions of Imperial citizens who remain unaware that the rebellion ever happened. However, a few tomes survived, mostly in the hands of those in high authority or heretics whose loyalties still remained undiscovered. It is from these works that historians and Inquisitors have gleaned their knowledge of those ancient times. Of course, shifting out the truth is never easy, because most books are copies of copies or simply forgeries filled with lies. In the case of the Alpha Legion, reliable facts are even harder to come by, as the legion was notoriously secretive." -Ia Alpha Legion Eskrador may have happed. Wheter it happend as an Alpha Legion victory or defeat or wheter Alpharius was really killed is still in doubt, as is generally everything with the Alpha Legion described in that article. You're skeptical of a claim because you've never read about it in the official material and you remain skeptical of a claim until it is backed by official material. We're talking canon then. As canon as 40k can get yes. I tend to subscribe to the ‘’loose canon theory.’’ Wouldn't matter unless official material trumped personal interpretation. Which it does. No it does not. http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Nope. The root of the problem is that you claimed that the Index Astartes article stated that the Ultramarines doubted the existence of the battle. It doesn't. Yes it does. Right at the start of the article it explains everything about the Alpha Legion is full of lies and misinformation. Now you're just dodging the point. This is about the Ultramarines. Something you said about the Ultramarines. That they doubt that the battle of Eskrador happened. According to the Index Astartes article. It doesn't say that about the Ultramarines. That's just not what the IA says. You're skeptical of a claim because you've never read about it in the official material and you remain skeptical of a claim until it is backed by official material. We're talking canon then. As canon as 40k can get yes. I tend to subscribe to the ‘’loose canon theory.’’ You dismissed every single example of the AL being defeated in battle, except for the Siege of Vraks, to the point where you accused RapatoR of ignoring that question after he posted an entire timeline. All because none of it fit your own interpretation. "Loose" doesn't even describe that. Wouldn't matter unless official material trumped personal interpretation. Which it does. No it does not. http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/ RapatoR's point stands then. A thousand marines is still thousand marines, no matter the colours, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Now you're just dodging the point. This is about the Ultramarines. Something you said about the Ultramarines. That they doubt that the battle of Eskrador happened. According to the Index Astartes article. It doesn't say that about the Ultramarines. That's just not what the IA says. No I am not. They doubt it because everything about the Alpha Legion carries and element of doubt. That and they doubt the actual acount of the battle as I stated before. If you want to get nitpicky the actual blow-by blow account of the battle was doubted. You dismissed every single example of the AL being defeated in battle, except for the Siege of Vraks, No I did not. I doubted chiefly the Voldorius one and the Dawn of War ones. Don’t put words in my mouth. to the point where you accused RapatoR of ignoring that question after he posted an entire timeline. He did. I asked him what battles they lost when they employed their usual methodology. He included the Volrodius one and the Dawn of War ones. All because none of it fit your own interpretation. No, it’s because none fit the parameters of the question. RapatoR's point stands then. A thousand marines is still thousand marines, no matter the colours, How does it stand then? How does that even relate to the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 You guessed it. Topic closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.