New relevations about the Iron Hands

[Gree]

From an Advanced Review here:

 

http://www.thebolthole.org/forum/viewtopic...f=35&t=1894

 

 

"Its also pointed out by the text at the beginning and by Magos Ys that Ferrus Manus realised what was happening to his Legion. They were distrusting their natural given strength, he described hating what is natural as the first of the great corruptions. He wrote that he intented to strip his hands of Asirnoth's metal after the Crusade and instruct his warriors to cease their augmenting, to bid them relearn the mysteries of flesh, bone and blood so thaty they do not turn to bionics as a crutch and a replacement for their natural parts. Of course he never accomplished that, and whether or not Manus really wrote that is debatable as its only attributed to him, but it does sound like it was written by him and it makes mention of Asirnoth."

 

 

If true then this certainly throws the Iron Hands culture into a new perspective.

[Machine God]

From an Advanced Review here:

 

http://www.thebolthole.org/forum/viewtopic...f=35&t=1894

 

 

"Its also pointed out by the text at the beginning and by Magos Ys that Ferrus Manus realised what was happening to his Legion. They were distrusting their natural given strength, he described hating what is natural as the first of the great corruptions. He wrote that he intented to strip his hands of Asirnoth's metal after the Crusade and instruct his warriors to cease their augmenting, to bid them relearn the mysteries of flesh, bone and blood so thaty they do not turn to bionics as a crutch and a replacement for their natural parts. Of course he never accomplished that, and whether or not Manus really wrote that is debatable as its only attributed to him, but it does sound like it was written by him and it makes mention of Asirnoth."

 

 

If true then this certainly throws the Iron Hands culture into a new perspective.

 

Yes it does shove a bit of a quandary into the mix.

 

Having read the novel it ties in with the conversation between Magos Ys and Lord General Raji Nethata.

 

Edit: Yippee, 400th Post!

Edited May 14, 2012 by Scion of Ferrus

[Lachdannan]

Now that sounds very interesting. Might have to pick up the book now.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Grrr. I want!

[Bannus]

Remember: "Everything you have been told is a lie."

[nimrod451]

*often lurking, not often posting*

 

I'll be disappointing if that's really the way they go with the Iron Hands.

 

I always thought the flaw manifested after the Massacre - a sort of reaction to the situation. "Perhaps if we'd been more perfect we could have protected Mannus" sort of deal.

 

I also looked at them as a sort of galactic immune reaction to the Emperor's Children - as a sort of dedication to never allowing their flesh to be corrupted by Slaanesh, by replacing the weaker pieces..

 

not sure how i feel about it - was very curious to see what bannus thought :P

[Visitor13]

As much as I've always liked the Iron Hands, I could never reconcile their hatred of their flesh with their devotion for the Emperor. The Astartes flesh is his gift after all, and if you're sneering at his gift... This book doesn't seem to be helping me with this.

[Gree]

*often lurking, not often posting*

 

I'll be disappointing if that's really the way they go with the Iron Hands.

 

I always thought the flaw manifested after the Massacre - a sort of reaction to the situation. "Perhaps if we'd been more perfect we could have protected Mannus" sort of deal.

 

I also looked at them as a sort of galactic immune reaction to the Emperor's Children - as a sort of dedication to never allowing their flesh to be corrupted by Slaanesh, by replacing the weaker pieces..

 

not sure how i feel about it - was very curious to see what bannus thought :lol:

 

Yeah. I don't quite like it either. It effectively means that the Iron Hands got it wrong and have been wrong for ten millenia.

[Legatus]

Just like the Ultramarines in their strict and literal adherance to the Codex Astartes, apparently. This is not shaping up to be a tired plot device at all.

[Candleshoes]

Very interesting.

 

I love the expansion of information on the Iron Hands and especially on Ferrus himself. Giving them a bit more depth and dimension is always welcome.

[Gree]

Just like the Ultramarines in their strict and literal adherance to the Codex Astartes, apparently. This is not shaping up to be a tired plot device at all.

 

Perhaps Russ will be revealed as a pretty big fan of the Codex Astartes to compensate?

[Brother Midas]

I'm currently in the midst of the book. They do provide a lot of good stuff on the Iron Hands. They approach combat very clinically. There's some detail on the Iron Fathers and the Iron Hand's interaction with Imperial Guard.

[Visitor13]

Does the book explain when the Hands decide it's time for one of them to chop off another body part? Surely they don't do this on a whim, disgust or no disgust...

[chaplain belisarius]

im guessing when they feel said body part has failed them in some way?

 

is wrath of iron out yet? im excited to read that book..;)

[nimrod451]

Does the book explain when the Hands decide it's time for one of them to chop off another body part? Surely they don't do this on a whim, disgust or no disgust...

 

I haven't read it, i do know that the recent short story they released does go into the ritual removal of their left hand as part of their scout initation.

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

This tells a very different story from Feat of Iron in The Primarchs.

The idea that flesh is inherantly weak seemed supported by Ferrus Manus pretty heavily in that novella.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Grandmaster Anaziel

[Ironwrought Huw]

On the link Gree posted, there's a pretty interesting comment about something the Clan/Chapter's chief librarian says - that the more augmented a marine becomes, the weaker their 'soul spark' becomes - I quite like that idea, and kind of makes more sense to me.

 

The rest of this idea I'm torn on - I can't work on whether I like the idea or not. On the one hand, there's as Legatus quite rightly points out, yet again we've got the plot device of "actually, they aren't anything like we've told you", and on top of that, bionic Iron Hands pre-Heresy. On the other hand, if done the right way, this plot could work, and give more depth to the Iron Hands.

 

This tells a very different story from Feat of Iron in The Primarchs.

The idea that flesh is inherantly weak seemed supported by Ferrus Manus pretty heavily in that novella.

 

Glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought that. If this info about Wrath of Iron is true, it's certainly confusing. It's almost like there's absolutely no co-ordination between the authors in the BL :)

 

Regardless, I'm itching to read this book as soon as it comes out.

[Bannus]

This tells a very different story from Feat of Iron in The Primarchs.

The idea that flesh is inherantly weak seemed supported by Ferrus Manus pretty heavily in that novella.

 

Glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought that. If this info about Wrath of Iron is true, it's certainly confusing. It's almost like there's absolutely no co-ordination between the authors in the BL .

Not at all.

 

Who in the novel 'supports' the idea that the Ferrus realized his Chapter was 'sick' or that they are following the wrong path with bionic enhancements? An Inquisitor and a currupted Deamon Prince. No one from inside the Iron Hands organization itself. This plot trick allows the author (in this case Wraight) to plausibly support or deny the claim in a future book. To add the icing on the cake, you see an Iron Hands Space Marine 'complete' his transformation at the end of the book. The mindset he has reached is completely impossible to corrupt because there is no emotion to interfere with rational thought. So we are left with the questions:

 

Did Ferrus even believe that the Iron Hands were heading in the wrong direction?

 

If Ferrus believed his Chapter was heading down the wrong path - was he right?

[chaplain belisarius]

(stares at clock..wills time to go quicker!)

 

I cannot wait to read this book! :)

[Jareddm]

I haven't read the book yet, but I wonder if there's any possibility that the in-character explanation is that the quote was not originally from Manus, but instead from another member of the legion, such as one of the Morlocks? That it is being misused by the characters by attributing it to Manus. It might have been a counter-argument that was presented to Manus and debated during the great crusade, but was never brought forward explicitly due to the heresy.

In this way, the idea that the legion should have been trying to return to mastering flesh was one that was spoken of, but was no more correct than the path the chapter followed.

Edited May 16, 2012 by bannus
The real-world religeous analogy is not required - we understand your point. :)

[Bannus]

I was reading some of the posts on the forum linked in the OP and I must say I pretty much disagree with all of their conclusions.

 

I admit I haven't read the book yet, but I am pretty sure that they missed the point. :P

[Nexus25]

Ok so here is MHO on the path they might be going with the Iron Hands.

Since Manus did not know much if anything about the warp/Chaos Gods he might have thought his Legion was going down a wrong path but now the best defence against Chaos is being as cold and machine like as possible so the Legion decided to continue down this path to ensure not only their survival but that they could face the enemy at a better advantage in their minds. They are after all firm believers in survival of the fitess and willing to do almost anything to achieve their goal.

[Watcher in the Dark]

The Iron Hands IA article in IA:3 does say that the extreme use of bionics may hide an underlying genetic defect. Perhaps this defect was present even before the betrayal on Istvaan and the death of Manus. It always seemed to me that it was never Ferrus Manus' belief that the mechanical was better than the biological, and thus this doctrine was never taught or given to his Legion. It was one that was manifest from elsewhere, and thus is a curse.

 

It really doesn't change anything about the Iron Hands as they are now though. Perhaps it deepens the character of the chapter in that the bionic replacement that they routinely undergo now, was not seen as "right" by their Primarch, and makes his early death, and what became of his progeny even more disheartening and thus grimdark.

 

Or to put it another way:

Ferrus Manus knowing about the replacement of the biological, realizing that it's a danger and intending on stopping it, dying before being able to stop it, and then having the desire to exchange flesh for machine take over the Iron Hands psyche so profoundly is more grimdark than having the Iron Hands be fine and dandy and perfectly normal, oops, Manus dies, Legion decides to turn themselves into toasters and microwave ovens.

 

I like it cause it adds an extra dimension of torture to our heroes. That this was not always their intended path.

[Bannus]

The plot element about the Iron Hands being 'sick' and Manus wanting his Legion to avoid that path does offer an interesting plot twist with no clues given as to whether or not it is true.

 

As mentioned above, the obsession with bionics has been viewed as a 'flaw' since the original IA article was published - but one that can be put to use as an advantage (not unlike the gene-seed flaws of some of the other Chapters like the Blood Angels and Space Wolves). Though it has its advantage, there is always the potential negative side-effect (like the Black Rage and Curse of the Wolfen) - which this new book expounds upon - bravo! That it was presented in way that provides complete uncertainty to the reader - bravisimo! It certainly will add to the character of this Chapter (which I always considered to be outstanding to begin with).

 

However, there were comments about the Iron Hands heading down the path to renegade or traitor status because they slaughtered a significant portion of the population of Contqual completely misses the point - and the mindest - of the Iron Hands. They are not betraying humanity with these executions - but saving it. Contqual completely succumbed to the influences of Chaos - they were no longer an asset to the Imperium - but a liability. In the doctrine and mindset of the Iron Hands, this is a significant weakness and had to be eradicated. Although brutal, the demonstration was very effective - Contqual has not been influenced by Chaos ever since.

 

There was also a comment about the Iron Hands not having a close relationship with the Ad Mech because of the loss of some Titans 'sacrificed' so that the Iron Hands could assault the capitol. I haven't read the passage - but given that the purging of Contqual is spoken of in the past tense in most fluff and the relationsip with the Ad Mech is mentioned in the present tense suggests that the relationship was not damaged by it. In all likelyhood, sacrifices were expected in the conflict and the Ad Mech probably considered the loss of the Titans as tragic, but part of the cost of waging war.

Edited May 17, 2012 by bannus

[legoss]

I'm not as immersed in the fluff for the Hands as Bannus, though I wish I was, but I think this is a pretty good way to run a new turn for the chapter. I'm not liking how on the other forum they go the route well they're all traitors because they don't care about individual humans. I think they're focusing too much on one human versus the whole system. I also though like the way that the Hands are described in the Deathwatch RPG, with some going as far as nearly being obliterators, while it seems a little over the top, in some ways it really does fit for the mindset of the chapter. Just my two cents mind you.