New relevations about the Iron Hands

[nimrod451]

However, there were comments about the Iron Hands heading down the path to renegade or traitor status because they slaughtered a significant portion of the population of Contqual completely misses the point - and the mindest - of the Iron Hands. They are not betraying humanity with these executions - but saving it. Contqual completely succumbed to the influences of Chaos - they were no longer an asset to the Imperium - but a liability. In the doctrine and mindset of the Iron Hands, this is a significant weakness and had to be eradicated. Although brutal, the demonstration was very effective - Contqual has not been influenced by Chaos ever since.

 

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other chapters that would make decisions like this in this case. Exterminautus has been called downon planets for more. Many other chapters have done this with far more....malice than the Iron Hands would - Minotaurs, Space Sharks, even the Space Wolves have a penchant for savageness.. In my opinion..

 

With no Rage, there is no blood for the blood god..

With no flesh there is no lust or disease..

...and steel is unchanging and unflinching..

 

no chaos.. ;)

[Visitor13]

That said, contempt is still an emotion, and the Hands have plenty of it.

 

"You still remember pity," said Khatir. "You look at the cattle who serve alongside us and you mourn their deaths in service. You wish to nurture them, to explain what we are doing, to help them understand. But they will never understand. Even our brothers in other chapters, those rare ones who are our equal in devotion, even they cannot understand as we do."

 

"They have no future," said Khatir. "The universe holds no place for them. Only the strongest will endure and nothing is stronger than the machine."

 

Sounds quite hot headed for someone aspiring to be a machine. And surprisingly short-sighted, too. After all, what was the point in purging the place if not for there to be a future for the remaining 'cattle'?

[Bannus]

Is it contempt - or or an observation?

 

The humans he refers to as 'cattle' are specifically the ones they are 'serving alongside us' - refering the those with the duty (or fate) to fight. In that role, humans are obviously far inferior than a Space Marine and 'cattle' would be an accurate term for an expendable resource that does not perceive the full scope of the threat they are facing - would it not?

[Visitor13]

No. A soldier would never say he was 'serving' alongside cattle and mean it literarily, even if he was part of an army that made use of cattle as cover or mine detonators or whatnot. Now you could say Khatir was being sarcastic, but sarcasm is contempt.

 

These are words I would expect from a Marine Malevolent or somesuch Astartes supremacist, but not from someone aspiring to the thought processes of a machine.

 

The accurate term would be non-Astartes/Imperial Guard, or maybe simply people/humans. The weak or the ignorant would also be a possibility, since they can be meant objectively. Things like cannon fodder, fools, or children would work in the context, but they are unambiguously contemptuous.

 

Basically metaphorical language and machines don't usually mix well. A true machine would be as literal as possible. And I may be reading too much into all this, but based on this short excerpt Khatir seems overflowing with contempt. And he is probably not the only Iron Hand to be that way - isn't it said elsewhere that that the Hands have less respect for their failed aspirants than for their servitors?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No. A soldier would never say he was 'serving' alongside cattle and mean it literarily, even if he was part of an army that made use of cattle as cover or mine detonators or whatnot. Now you could say Khatir was being sarcastic, but sarcasm is contempt.

 

These are words I would expect from a Marine Malevolent or somesuch Astartes supremacist, but not from someone aspiring to the thought processes of a machine.

 

The accurate term would be non-Astartes/Imperial Guard, or maybe simply people/humans. The weak or the ignorant would also be a possibility, since they can be meant objectively. Things like cannon fodder, fools, or children would work in the context, but they are unambiguously contemptuous.

 

Basically metaphorical language and machines don't usually mix well. A true machine would be as literal as possible. And I may be reading too much into all this, but based on this short excerpt Khatir seems overflowing with contempt. And he is probably not the only Iron Hand to be that way - isn't it said elsewhere that that the Hands have less respect for their failed aspirants than for their servitors?

 

 

Emphasis mine, and here's where your mistake is. The Iron Hands seek physical improvement through mechanization, not emotional or mental improvement. One of the key points of the Chapter is their anger -- at the other Legions for not supporting them at the drop site, for their weakness in allowing the Emperor to be wounded, for their inability to resist the call of Chaos, etc -- and any emotion, especially one that clouds judgement like anger, is by its very nature un-machine-like. Anger, hatred, weakness, contempt -- all of these have ALWAYS been part of the Iron Hands' collective psyche.

[Visitor13]

Fair enough.

[BassWave]

I just hope we are done justice. I don't think I can handle more disapointment in regards to the IH.

[legoss]

I think as a chapter they're in safe hands. The Battle for the Fang was a pretty good read, and it seems the author did his best to write the Hands to the same level.

[Andrew J]

I would agree with legoss, Chris Wraight did a great job on Battle of the Fang, I would think he would do a good job with the IH, one of my new favorite chapters/legions.

[Visitor13]

Here's a review

[legoss]

That review, and most other ones I've read give me hope. It looks like this will be a fantastic read.

[Lonewolf86]

Just finished reading the ebook.

 

Overall I was really impressed with the book. I think Chris Wraight is a very good writer and definitely one of the best BL has to offer. The pace of the book is brisk enough and the perspective being offered changes from character to character frequently. At no points did I find myself being 'bogged down' or bored. The ending is paced particularly well and you feel compelled to continue reading as the IH push onwards to save the day. Just like the BOTF the author really pulls you in as you race towards the conclusion.

 

The characters themselves were varied and interesting. I liked seeing the battle through the eyes of a librarian (Telach). It drove home how far apart they are in many ways from their brothers and how much they must sometimes sacrifice. The human characters were good also and I think the author has a very good feel for writing guard characters from the most lowly guardsman to the generals. A lot of the book is spend around these human characters which I think is one of the biggest strengths of the books and its largest weakness. THe book is certainly not all action and is not particularly IH centric. The fight scenes are great and stand out more for being surrounded by other story development. But part of me wanted to read more about the Iron Hands and their skirmishes crushing the weak. That said although it is a SMB book I think Chris has opted to tell the story of the retaking of Shardenus and to do this well other viewpoints aside from those of the IH must be considered. Interestingly he chooses not to include any viewpoints from the traitor side. This is effective in my opinion as you spend most of the book wondering what is going on inside the hive and especially at its summit.

 

The book really did flesh out the Iron Hands and their background in terms of their hatred of the weak and affinity to augmenting their bodies with bionics. I would say Flesh by the same author is required reading with this book if you want to find out more about the IH. I really like them as a chapter now and think there are a number of interesting points to be discussed. THey do come across as brutal throughout the book but less uncaring in my opinion than some reviews make out. Their actions result in a lot of deaths but their seemingly harsh and callous battle plan is necessary. Due to the enemy they are facing there is a ticking clock and the IHs basically judge it is better for the other commanders not to know why they must push on so quickly. It should be noted that if they had adopted a more cautious approach and considered casualties like other chapters may do the world would likely have been lost. The book is certainly 'grimdark' in showing what must take place in the Imperium every day for it to continue. The very end does show that the IHs are unforgiving and without mercy though.

 

As for the battles and fights they were brilliant. Early on the marines are crushing guardsman and mutants with ease. When the daemons enter the fray things the astartes often meet their match. The daemons were shown as being particularly powerful compared to how they are potrayed in other BL literature. This was probably necessary otherwise the IHs would have prevailed without too much difficulty. Mortal troops were no match at all for them. The IHs are shown to have their own unique fighting style. They fight in silence nearly all the time and are shown to be very methodical and efficient. I very much liked the fact that when fighting weak enemies like traitor guardsman and mutants the marines would often stow bolters and kill with their hands and blades. In other books the marine characters seem to have limitless ammuntion that allow them to shoot near constantly in battles that last hours.

 

My final thought was how the book covered the topic of bravery and on the reality of confronting fears and facing certain death. Space marines (especially the IHs) aren't really heroes and aren't brave and courageous. They seem themselves as weapons to be used and they all recognise that they will at one point certainly die. Infact when the IH accrue losses the rest of the squad doesn't react. There are no tears or the survivors charging into battle with their comrades names on their lips. There is only the next task. They do not feel fear so facing impossible odds and a violent death is their only purpose and completely accepted. Rather it is the lowly guardsman that are the brave ones-rallying themselves to face a terrifying enemy and knowing they walk to their deaths.

 

Overall I would rate this book a very good read and score it 8.5/10. Perhaps a bit behind BOTF and on a similar level to Helsreach. I would like to see Mr Wraight write more about the IHs. I would like to learn more about the different clans, their recruiting process and their homeworld.

[jokaero weaponsmith]

Just finished both flesh and wrath of iron this weekend and while I might not know all the old back ground fluff I really enjoyed them both. Chris Wraight had his work cut out making these boys likeable enough to keep reading and yet keep them the grim dark monsters they are, possibly why the iron hands were not completely dominating the story arc. I think he did a good job and look forward to any follow on story arcs.

While he didn't try to address the terminator or dreadnought issue, the plates inside seem to be addressing this issue showing 8 terminator amour and 7 dreadnoughts for the Raukaan clan alone not too bad and in keeping with other chapters.

[Lonewolf86]

While he didn't try to address the terminator or dreadnought issue, the plates inside seem to be addressing this issue showing 8 terminator amour and 7 dreadnoughts for the Raukaan clan alone not too bad and in keeping with other chapters.

 

If these were averages then I'd say they're doing quite well as this would scale up to 80 suits of TDA and 70 Dreadnoughts. It seemed ridiculous to me that such a technologically focused chapter with great connections to the AM wouldn't be stocked with everything they could want.

 

Also I got the ebook on kindle so the page which showed the strength of the chapter was a bit small. Was there anything interesting in the smaller text?

Edited June 25, 2012 by Lonewolf86

[Arkangilos]

If they don't like the Iron Hands and say they are going to chaos for killing off a population of traitors, then why do they like any other chapter or organization in the Imperium? I mean, Inquisitors have been known to destroy entire worlds to kill one daemon. Would they argue that the inquisitors are going down a path to chaos? Or the Space Wolves?

 

And someone else said on there that she deserted, and then complained that she was killed with no remorse. Commissars do the same thing.

 

She is a deserter, she has proven her weakness.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Telanicus

[jokaero weaponsmith]

Also I got the ebook on kindle so the page which showed the strength of the chapter was a bit small. Was there anything interesting in the smaller text?

 

Clave names and numbers ie Vi Clave Broesus assault (654-6/293)

 

654 appears to denote assault squads

735 appears to denote Devastator squads

439 scout squads

273 Tactical

037 Veterans

632 Apothecaries

633 iron father and techmarines

634 librarian and codicers

631 clan commander and retinue

349 denotes dreadnoughts

The - number is the clave number with -x denoting hq

The last three numbers again relate to the type of squad but appears to be a ranking of the squad

Vehicles are numbered too ie Rhino ( 834-10/987-4) which would be interesting from modelling point of view

Rhinos denoted by 834-10

Razorbacke denoted by 834-5

Drop pods by 682-4

Land raiders by 562-9

Thunderhawkes by 762-5

Tactical dreadnought armour denoted by 423 then squad number

As yet I can't see a pattern for the last four digits for vechicles. Like to hear any ideas for those numbers.

Thanks lone wolf for making take a closer look ( hope what I have written makes sense)

Edited June 25, 2012 by jokaero weaponsmith

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The thing that struck me most about the novel was actually the insights into the organizational structure of the Raukaan Clan.

 

1. So much for the strict, 100x Marines per company. I don't have it with me, but if memory serves, there are two each Assault and Dev Squads, and five or six Tactical Squads, a Scout Squad, a Veteran Squad, a Command Squad, three Librarians, four Techmarines (including the Iron Father), and seven Dreadnoughts. If the other nine Clan Companies are similarly equipped, then the Chapter as a whole has greater numbers than a Codex Chapter.

 

2. So much for codex roles, eh? The Tactical Squad we "see" during the novel is Clave Arx, and is indeed listed specifically as a a Tactical Squad. And yet, they break Codex doctrine for arming the squad. References are made to two heavy weapon bearers, there are no references to a special weapon bearer at all, and while the Sergeant has no specialty weaponry -- bolter and chainsword and that's it, if I recall -- another member of the squad is mentioned to be carrying a power weapon. My question is, if a Tactical Squad is carrying two heavies, how many heavies are the Dev Squads carrying?

 

3. This is my command group... As I mentioned before, it appears that each Clan is responsible for its own specialty branches, in that Raukaan has its own force of Techmarines and Librarians. Granted, this isn't specified in the text, but considering that Telmach is referred to as the "Chief Librarian" implies that he's the chief of the Clan, not the Chapter. He acts clearly subordinate to the Clan Chief and he isn't wearing Terminator armor, which as we all know is one of those things to be expected from an Iron Hands character of high rank.

 

4. Tank? What tank? This may be just Clan Raukaan specialty, but the Iron Hands in this novel appear to prefer to hoof it rather than roll in an armored box. Despite having Rhinos and Razorbacks in their force organization, we never see any of them. Even during the big underground push -- when operating in a tunnel large enough for multiple Warhound Titans to pass through -- they aren't mounted. There was also no bikes mentioned, and despite there being Assault Squads in their TO&E, I'm also pretty sure I never saw any mention of jump packs. This, combined with the propensity for heavy weapons mentioned in 2, suggests to me that any future Iron Hands character in a codex should grant Relentless. Could be a touch over-powered and fluff=/= rules, but I think it's characterful and, well, packed with win.

[Bannus]

The thing that struck me most about the novel was actually the insights into the organizational structure of the Raukaan Clan.

 

1. So much for the strict, 100x Marines per company. I don't have it with me, but if memory serves, there are two each Assault and Dev Squads, and five or six Tactical Squads, a Scout Squad, a Veteran Squad, a Command Squad, three Librarians, four Techmarines (including the Iron Father), and seven Dreadnoughts. If the other nine Clan Companies are similarly equipped, then the Chapter as a whole has greater numbers than a Codex Chapter.

They are still close. They have 1 more squad (-1 Tactical Squad, +1 Sternguard(?)/"Clave Prime" and +1 Scout Squad, -1 Command Squad - but there is a Retinue of 4 Marines in Terminator armor and 2 Apothecaries that stand apart).

 

2. So much for codex roles, eh? The Tactical Squad we "see" during the novel is Clave Arx, and is indeed listed specifically as a a Tactical Squad. And yet, they break Codex doctrine for arming the squad. References are made to two heavy weapon bearers, there are no references to a special weapon bearer at all, and while the Sergeant has no specialty weaponry -- bolter and chainsword and that's it, if I recall -- another member of the squad is mentioned to be carrying a power weapon. My question is, if a Tactical Squad is carrying two heavies, how many heavies are the Dev Squads carrying?

It is scary, I was toying with the idea of the Iron Hands Tactical Squads being able to mix-n-match heavy and special weapons.

 

In 2nd edition, the Iron Hands had some experimental rules ("Ring of Iron") where the Dev Squads could have up to nine heavy weapons!

 

3. This is my command group... As I mentioned before, it appears that each Clan is responsible for its own specialty branches, in that Raukaan has its own force of Techmarines and Librarians. Granted, this isn't specified in the text, but considering that Telmach is referred to as the "Chief Librarian" implies that he's the chief of the Clan, not the Chapter. He acts clearly subordinate to the Clan Chief and he isn't wearing Terminator armor, which as we all know is one of those things to be expected from an Iron Hands character of high rank.

I was very surprised at the "HQ" section of Clan Raukaan - 4 Techmarines (including "Iron-Father") and 4 Librarians (including "Chief Librarian").

 

4. Tank? What tank? This may be just Clan Raukaan specialty, but the Iron Hands in this novel appear to prefer to hoof it rather than roll in an armored box. Despite having Rhinos and Razorbacks in their force organization, we never see any of them. Even during the big underground push -- when operating in a tunnel large enough for multiple Warhound Titans to pass through -- they aren't mounted. There was also no bikes mentioned, and despite there being Assault Squads in their TO&E, I'm also pretty sure I never saw any mention of jump packs. This, combined with the propensity for heavy weapons mentioned in 2, suggests to me that any future Iron Hands character in a codex should grant Relentless. Could be a touch over-powered and fluff=/= rules, but I think it's characterful and, well, packed with win.

BL writers have always had some odd ideas about strategy and tactics - all we can do is speculate. They write a good story....tactics are secondary.

[Lonewolf86]

Thanks Jokaero for posting that up. Does take a bit of thinking to get your head around it.

 

The thing that struck me most about the novel was actually the insights into the organizational structure of the Raukaan Clan.

 

1. So much for the strict, 100x Marines per company. I don't have it with me, but if memory serves, there are two each Assault and Dev Squads, and five or six Tactical Squads, a Scout Squad, a Veteran Squad, a Command Squad, three Librarians, four Techmarines (including the Iron Father), and seven Dreadnoughts. If the other nine Clan Companies are similarly equipped, then the Chapter as a whole has greater numbers than a Codex Chapter.

 

2. So much for codex roles, eh? The Tactical Squad we "see" during the novel is Clave Arx, and is indeed listed specifically as a a Tactical Squad. And yet, they break Codex doctrine for arming the squad. References are made to two heavy weapon bearers, there are no references to a special weapon bearer at all, and while the Sergeant has no specialty weaponry -- bolter and chainsword and that's it, if I recall -- another member of the squad is mentioned to be carrying a power weapon. My question is, if a Tactical Squad is carrying two heavies, how many heavies are the Dev Squads carrying?

 

3. This is my command group... As I mentioned before, it appears that each Clan is responsible for its own specialty branches, in that Raukaan has its own force of Techmarines and Librarians. Granted, this isn't specified in the text, but considering that Telmach is referred to as the "Chief Librarian" implies that he's the chief of the Clan, not the Chapter. He acts clearly subordinate to the Clan Chief and he isn't wearing Terminator armor, which as we all know is one of those things to be expected from an Iron Hands character of high rank.

 

4. Tank? What tank? This may be just Clan Raukaan specialty, but the Iron Hands in this novel appear to prefer to hoof it rather than roll in an armored box. Despite having Rhinos and Razorbacks in their force organization, we never see any of them. Even during the big underground push -- when operating in a tunnel large enough for multiple Warhound Titans to pass through -- they aren't mounted. There was also no bikes mentioned, and despite there being Assault Squads in their TO&E, I'm also pretty sure I never saw any mention of jump packs. This, combined with the propensity for heavy weapons mentioned in 2, suggests to me that any future Iron Hands character in a codex should grant Relentless. Could be a touch over-powered and fluff=/= rules, but I think it's characterful and, well, packed with win.

 

For point 1 I always imagine a company as being the standard 100 marines in the tac, assault and dev squads and then the Captain with at least five marines as an honour guard that are distinct from the ten main squads. I'd also expect two or three apothecaries and the same with techmarines. The fluff seems to suggest that there is normally maybe only one apothecary and techmarine with a standard company deployment but I seem them as having such important roles that more of them are required in the chapter.

 

Point 2 I think makes sense. I assume the Codex says that having too many heavy and special weapons slows the squad reducing its value tactically and making it only viable as a fire support unit. But there must be times when it's better for the special weapons marine to think hey a heavy bolter will be more useful for this engagement than this plasma gun.

 

Point 4. I did expect to see some tanks. I expected some Land Raiders to roll in for the tunnel scenes. What better for cleansing mutants than hurricane bolters and flamestorm cannons?

Edited June 26, 2012 by Lonewolf86

[BassWave]

Finished the book yesterday, overall it was pretty good, despite the lack of dreadnought battles ;)

 

What bothers me the most is how everyone sees the Iron Hands' obsession with bionics as a weakness despite that it was their main strength when fighting the daemons. One of the characters even said that that the IH's compulsion stems from fear ;)

 

As for point 4, the Iron Hands clearly knew what they were dealing with. Considering how quickly the daemonettes tore through an unshielded warhound, the Iron Hands would have seen it as a waste of their own resources to bring their transports along. You also have to take into account that Clan Raukaan never engaged in a battle where the opposition used tanks against them, they only engaged foot soldiers. At least, I don't remember any enemy tanks being mentioned specifically in the underground battle...

Edited June 28, 2012 by BassWave

[Hyaenidae]

What bothers me the most is how everyone sees the Iron Hands' obsession with bionics as a weakness despite that it was their main strength when fighting the daemons. One of the characters even said that that the IH's compulsion stems from fear ;)

 

Better question.... why do many chapters suffer this fate? The Ultramarines' strength is their Codex and it's teaching, yet damn near every writer acts like it's some kind of curse. Every BA book focuses on the Black Rage, when it's their angelic nobility that makes them kick ass. The Imperial Fists' "stand or die" ethic is what kept the Traitor Legions off the Walls of Terra, but every book sees them slain to a man, with little gain. Now the Iron Hands? Seriously, what the hell?!? Is the next White Scar book going to focus on how their lightning style warfare gets them butchered, and the hero of the book finds that walking slowly is a far more effective fighting style?

[Marshal Rohr]

Isn't there an adage about strengths and weaknesses being two sides of the same coin?

[Bannus]

What bothers me the most is how everyone sees the Iron Hands' obsession with bionics as a weakness despite that it was their main strength when fighting the daemons. One of the characters even said that that the IH's compulsion stems from fear :angry:

But remember that those perpectives are from those OUTSIDE of the Iron Hands - with the exception of Ferrus Manus at the beginning of the book. However, his perspective might have changed had he survived the Heresy. After all, the Iron Hands excel at fighting against Chaos and corruption. As for the other perspectives, they come from those outside of the Iron Hands and do understand their cult beliefs.

[alphariusomegon20]

Just like the Ultramarines in their strict and literal adherance to the Codex Astartes, apparently. This is not shaping up to be a tired plot device at all.

 

Perhaps Russ will be revealed as a pretty big fan of the Codex Astartes to compensate?

 

 

I've always thought that Russ saw the Tactical value of the idea, but chafed at the idea of being FORCED to implement it.

 

I've never viewed Russ as a complete idiot, just a stubborn one.

[Legatus]

Perhaps Russ will be revealed as a pretty big fan of the Codex Astartes to compensate?

I've always thought that Russ saw the Tactical value of the idea, but chafed at the idea of being FORCED to implement it.

 

I've never viewed Russ as a complete idiot, just a stubborn one.

As an aside, there is a 1st Edition source stating that Leman Russ had contributed to the Codex Astartes. :lol: But back then the Codex had not been credited to Guilliman, and it was more of a basic strategy guide for Marines and the Imperial Guard alike. It was around 2nd Edition that the Codex was changed into the fundamental tome of the Space Marines, and as having been authored mainly by Roboute Guilliman. Some descriptions of other contributors have remained, though.

 

Oh, and of course, Chapters were never mandated to implement the organisational and tactical doctrines of the Codex Astartes.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Legatus