New relevations about the Iron Hands

[Arkangilos]

They weren't? I thought that was a big part of the problems at the break up. One side was wanting to do it, but not everyone was on board, so they started calling out those who didn't change too.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think he means the internal structural recommendations of the Codex, ie a veteran company, four battle companies, etc. The "organizational" breakdown of the Legions into 1,000-man Chapters was in fact enforced quite stringently upon some Legions; the story about the Navy firing on the Imperial Fists comes to mind. Because if you look at, say, the Wolves and Hands and Templars, their post-Second Founding structures are NOT Codex-adherent but they were allowed to go about their business by the High Lords and Guilliman despite their. . . .non-compliance.

[Legatus]

Yes, the Codex Astartes indeed contains mandated decrees, such as the limitation of forces and fleet assets. It contains all laws and jurisdictions pertaining Space Marines. But those are different from the combat doctrine part of the Codex, even if that distinction is not always made apparent in the fluff. To not derail this thread with a massive wall of text, I'll just link to the massive wall of text I had written up over here.

[BassWave]

What bothers me the most is how everyone sees the Iron Hands' obsession with bionics as a weakness despite that it was their main strength when fighting the daemons. One of the characters even said that that the IH's compulsion stems from fear :)

But remember that those perpectives are from those OUTSIDE of the Iron Hands - with the exception of Ferrus Manus at the beginning of the book. However, his perspective might have changed had he survived the Heresy. After all, the Iron Hands excel at fighting against Chaos and corruption. As for the other perspectives, they come from those outside of the Iron Hands and do understand their cult beliefs.

 

Except Telach, the clans chief librarian, also had doubts towards bionics as well. Each time a marine is modified their soul spark dims. Not exactly an advantage if you are a psyker.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

What bothers me the most is how everyone sees the Iron Hands' obsession with bionics as a weakness despite that it was their main strength when fighting the daemons. One of the characters even said that that the IH's compulsion stems from fear :)

But remember that those perpectives are from those OUTSIDE of the Iron Hands - with the exception of Ferrus Manus at the beginning of the book. However, his perspective might have changed had he survived the Heresy. After all, the Iron Hands excel at fighting against Chaos and corruption. As for the other perspectives, they come from those outside of the Iron Hands and do understand their cult beliefs.

 

Except Telach, the clans chief librarian, also had doubts towards bionics as well. Each time a marine is modified their soul spark dims. Not exactly an advantage if you are a psyker.

 

 

Unless you're playing an IH Libby in Deathwatch. They have a power in there that hits every person in close proximity, but the amount of damage done decreases according to the number of bionic parts each target has.

[BassWave]

I'm speaking in regards to the librarians themselves. If a librarian's soul spark dims, doesn't that make him weaker? Even the daemon prince says that telach is weaker than he remembers. That would essentially make the iron hands have weaker librarians than the average chapter.

[Bannus]

I'm speaking in regards to the librarians themselves. If a librarian's soul spark dims, doesn't that make him weaker? Even the daemon prince says that telach is weaker than he remembers. That would essentially make the iron hands have weaker librarians than the average chapter.

That is quite possible. That is one thing that I like about this novel is that the concept of the bionic enhancement has not been presented as being completely wrong or completely right.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've always liked that idea, BassWave, and its how I always pictured things working for our libbies, too. My RPG grounding is in Shadowrun, where the more cyberware (read: bionics) you have, the less Essence you have, which in turn limits your magical ability. So it makes perfect sense to me.

[Jareddm]

While I found it interesting that the more bionics a marine might have, the weaker their psychic presence, I don't feel this is something that can be universally applied to all humans. There have been numerous instances of psykers who were effectively brains in jars (Not just Ravenor) yet still maintained an incredible amount of psychic power, perhaps even more than when they were normal humans.

[BassWave]

What if its a part of the flaw of the geneseed? I wonder if the compulsion was caused because ferrus' ctan shard hands are somehow making the IH into "necrons"

 

If thats the case , is it possible the IH will eventually shun psykers entirely? Plus, for a chapter that only respects strength, why would they be even have a librarius to begin with if it only produces weak psykers?

[jokaero weaponsmith]

Would that mean that the blood angels interning a pysker in a dreadnought would be a waste of time. I though that pysker was down to having the gift and the will power to control and harness the warp .

Couldn't the weakness the daemon speaks of in Telach , be the doubt he has in the chapters quest for perfection.

[Bannus]

Yes, it is a perception - and may not be accurate. If the Librarians are truly weakened by the augmetic process - would they then avoid such modifications?

 

Remember, we are talking about the perception of a single Librarian who admits he is alone in his conclusions.

 

Again, this is what I like about the book - there is no clear cut right or wrong answers about their augmetics....merely perceptions.

[Machine God]

I've always liked that idea, BassWave, and its how I always pictured things working for our libbies, too. My RPG grounding is in Shadowrun, where the more cyberware (read: bionics) you have, the less Essence you have, which in turn limits your magical ability. So it makes perfect sense to me.

 

I prefer Cyberpunk 2020. Shadowrun is for Girls.

 

The way I look at Librarians and Psychic Powers is in technological advancement gene grown psychic implants ala Peter F Hamilton's Mindstar Rising.

[BassWave]

Would that mean that the blood angels interning a pysker in a dreadnought would be a waste of time.

 

The Blood Angels are not obssessed with strength so the comparison cannot really be made.

 

If the Librarians are truly weakened by the augmetic process - would they then avoid such modifications?

 

That's why I think that the Iron Hands might do away with psykers entirely at some point. They'll be seen as weak if they don't augment themselves, but if they do augment themselves they will become weak. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, Bass, I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with it. I think they'll keep at it because of the nature of the psyker. This is being whose force of will is so strong that it can actually manifest physically. If that isn't a strength to be feared, I don't know what is. And so, my Clan will always have Librarians in their ranks.

[Bannus]

I reread a few parts last night and Telach was thinking to himself that he was passing his limits of endurance long before they reached the daemons (his eyes were bleeding and scalp was blistered). Also daemons can grow in strength over time, while librarians may not (having reached the apex of their power). So again, the details are confusing. Telach aslo mused that the lack of a "spark" may actually be a good thing. So there is nothing concrete one way or the other.

[Hyaenidae]

If the Librarians are truly weakened by the augmetic process - would they then avoid such modifications?

That's why I think that the Iron Hands might do away with psykers entirely at some point. They'll be seen as weak if they don't augment themselves, but if they do augment themselves they will become weak. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

But wouldn't being defenseless against a horde of chaos worshipping psykers because you ditched your Librarians be a weakness as well, at the very least at a tactical level?

 

Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, Damned if you don't bother.

[Marshal Rohr]

Templars have been doing fine for 10,000 years, I dont see why the Iron Hands would be any different :D .

[Hyaenidae]

Templars and Malevolents run on Zeal and Psychosis, respectivley. And we suffer the damage too, to be honest.

 

The difference is that the Templars can suck up the losses due to their huge numbers. The Marines Malevolent steal and pirate stuff to fill theirs (and I suspect other, more detestible ways as well, to be honest). The Iron Hands don't have the numbers, or the lack of honour, to take hits like our respective chapters can.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'd imagine by integrating with a machine you become less susceptible to non-physical psychic attacks, like telepathy and persuasion. Things like Eldar making your eyes see a forrest wont work when your brain automatically registers the heat, wavelength, air displacement, and chemical spectrum of whats in front of you.

 

 

 

 

On another note, Iron Hands using the Noosphere needs to happen. Now.

[Hyaenidae]

Such tricks affect the mind, not the machine. If your brain is telling you 'no, then the machines that depend on that mind will say the same.

 

Abnett's 'Brothers of the Snakes' has daemons that fool the machine-spirit of their armour (and the poor mook with the bionic eye), but not the natural eyes.

 

The ways of Chaos / psychic powers are too diverse to effectivly counter without either a psyker, or killing the creatures that are causing such harm en masse at a trade off of a huge loss of men.

[BassWave]

I suggest the purging of psykers and look who pops up, clearly a good omen ;) Welcome battle cousins :)

 

We may not have the templars zeal and numbers, or the malevonts' psychosis, BUT we have resilience to damage, the best relationship with the mechanicus out of all chapters, and thousands of years of pent up fury and hatred to call upon. If the Iron Hands decide to destroy their librarius, they would learn to thrive. If we really want psychic defense, we could just enslave some Nulls, or have the mechanicus develope a null zone generator or some mortal sanctioned psyker serfs under the watchful eye of an assigned iron father.

[oiaughwea]

Iron Hands are all about the bionics. I think this thing is just another little piece of fluff I'll blissfully ignore. :)

[BassWave]

Iron Hands are all about the bionics. I think this thing is just another little piece of fluff I'll blissfully ignore. :D

 

As Bannus said, only perceptions towards bionics have been made, not facts. Its just interesting to see what each perception could implicate were it true. I'm starting to like the implications towards the effect on soul sparks and how it could affect the chapter organization.

[clanfield]

back in rt days marines squads all of which were tactical basicly could be equipet with 3 heavy wepons,it alsonotes that a comandermay form a devistator company by reallocating the chapters heavy wepons,

 

 

as too clan structure i feel that the clan campaigns until it needs resupply then go's back to medusa to requip/recruit

 

as to chief librian ,maybe he was with a chapter council i guess diferant clans have diferant assets avaliable

im realy interested in what the iron hands fleet is like cos it sounds like a strike cruiser and a few esscorts for each clan but would love to know more