Arkangilos Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 He isn't nerfed. So here is the thing, the BRB says if you have two close combat weapons, you choose which one you want to use. (pg 51). Being that pistol counts as a close combat weapon in which you use the users str. with ap -, you can use that. So, let us say you are fighting against orks, and you don't need the ap value, you can use your "pistol" at I6. Now, lets say you charge a group of Terminators. Those Terminators will get the same I1 as you would get with an ax, so you are no longer behind. And your master crafted ax will go strait through their armor (and vise versa). But you get more attacks than them. So, basically, it just makes you have to choose. Fast with base strength and no ap, or slow with good ap and +2 str. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Telanicus, I like the sound of that. Pistol whip the greenskin ftw Dante Stylee. Not great against MEQ with a fist though (no EW, thanks Games Worshop :( ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastellan Kong Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Not every character can be eternal, not even the oldest living space marine of a vampire chapter. Yeah... I know... :( But seriously, I do feel like there is to much EW in the game already. Even though Dante SHOULD have it, I just don't want another EW at all. Good call on pistol whipping orcs btw! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I have been following this tread and re-reading my book over and over. I think I have one more to chalk up for unique power weapon. If you loo at the description of power weapons it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type..." master crafted is a special rule mentioned in this description deferring it to unusual power weapons I believe this is correct. If they wanted it to work as generic, they would have done it in the FAQ as they did with the Blood Crozius, the Frost Axe, Gorechild etc. Its either that or an overlook... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I have been following this tread and re-reading my book over and over. I think I have one more to chalk up for unique power weapon. If you loo at the description of power weapons it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type..." master crafted is a special rule mentioned in this description deferring it to unusual power weapons I believe this is correct. If they wanted it to work as generic, they would have done it in the FAQ as they did with the Blood Crozius, the Frost Axe, Gorechild etc. Its either that or an overlook... While I'm not working against you two here(I'd hate to get Dante nerfed to init1!), but why has Lemmy's crozius been FAQ'd, then? :( Damn, I'll miss the times when a Squad of Grey hunters was just some breakfast for Lemmy. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastellan Kong Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 While I'm not working against you two here(I'd hate to get Dante nerfed to init1!), but why has Lemmy's crozius been FAQ'd, then? :( Damn, I'll miss the times when a Squad of Grey hunters was just some breakfast for Lemmy. Snorri Lemartes is a Chaplain, Chaplains have Power Mauls. While Dante has a special axe named axe so clearly it's a sword. Seems obvious to me. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Lemartes is a Chaplain, Chaplains have Power Mauls. While Dante has a special axe named axe so clearly it's a sword. Seems obvious to me. :( Congratulations, you just won the internet Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Just throwing it out their, but you can model your Dante with a heavy melta and an Imperator Titan, doesnt mean he can have them.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talnox Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 While I'm not working against you two here(I'd hate to get Dante nerfed to init1!), but why has Lemmy's crozius been FAQ'd, then? :( Damn, I'll miss the times when a Squad of Grey hunters was just some breakfast for Lemmy. Snorri Lemartes is a Chaplain, Chaplains have Power Mauls. While Dante has a special axe named axe so clearly it's a sword. Seems obvious to me. :( Im not debating weather or not Dante has an AXE but what category his axe falls into. Arguing that it fits the profile of a unique power weapon dosnt automatically make it a sword. It just makes it an ap3 power weapon with special rules that looks like an axe. It seems pretty clear to me but i guess thats why we are having this debate, but please dont think that im trying to call his weapon a sword. @ snorri: I think they FAQ'ed the maul so we didnt put it in the same category with the glaive and axe mortalis. making it fit with other chaplin weapons which are classified as mauls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azatoth Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I find the fact that people claim that the AXE Mortalis is not an axe, but either another power weapon, or a powersword with a funny blade setting quite amusing. Rule beating has already started. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/Azatoth/Miniatures/Dante.jpg Comander Dante of the Blood Angels with his with his Non-Axe-Power-Thingie!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daybreak Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I find the fact that people claim that the AXE Mortalis is not an axe, but either another power weapon, or a powersword with a funny blade setting quite amusing. Rule beating has already started. Comander Dante of the Blood Angels with his with his Non-Axe-Power-Thingie!! No one is claiming that it isn't an axe! The argument is about whether or not "master crafted" is enough of a special rule to make it immune from being replaced by the S+2, I1, AP2 axe profile. If MC is enough, then he's got an axe that works as it always does: I6, AP3. If MC isn't enough, then it's dropped down to I1. On the one side, the rule says "if the weapon doesn't have any special rules," then treat it as such. Ok, Dante's axe has special rules, so it doesn't get treated as such. On the other side, the rule says "if it has unique rules, treat it as AP3." Well, it doesn't have unique rules, just MC, so don't treat it as AP3. The question is: what are we to do then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 The question is: what are we to do then? Let's vote? x) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lividjoker Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Lets all just ally ourselves with a GK Grand Master and pimp him out until he has acceptable swagger to roll with the Angels, and/or take Dante's place until we know what he has. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 The point I was attempting to get across though is that changing the model to a sword does not change the rules. If it's ruled as a power axe then having your version with a sword will not let you get around that. My bad! Didnt realise that was your point. 100% with ya there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I find the fact that people claim that the AXE Mortalis is not an axe, but either another power weapon, or a powersword with a funny blade setting quite amusing. Rule beating has already started. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/Azatoth/Miniatures/Dante.jpg Comander Dante of the Blood Angels with his with his Non-Axe-Power-Thingie!! Please read the thread. NOoooooo one is arguing that it is NOT an Axe. What they are arguing is that it is an Axe with additional rules- which by the rule book uses a PW profile- NOT an Axe profile. Lemartes' weapon was specifically changed. Kharne's weapon was specifically changed. Dante's was not. Dante would be a lot worse off either way with an AP3 weapon anyway. AP2 may be a LOT better for him, especially considering he has 2+ artificer. its not about what we want for the character as much as what the rules are saying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 The question is: what are we to do then? We let him take some time off until the next edition or codex. Whatever comes first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel1303 Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Dante would be a lot worse off either way with an AP3 weapon anyway.AP2 may be a LOT better for him, especially considering he has 2+ artificer I tend to agree Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 He isn't nerfed. So here is the thing, the BRB says if you have two close combat weapons, you choose which one you want to use. (pg 51). Being that pistol counts as a close combat weapon in which you use the users str. with ap -, you can use that. So, let us say you are fighting against orks, and you don't need the ap value, you can use your "pistol" at I6. Now, lets say you charge a group of Terminators. Those Terminators will get the same I1 as you would get with an ax, so you are no longer behind. And your master crafted ax will go strait through their armor (and vise versa). But you get more attacks than them. So, basically, it just makes you have to choose. Fast with base strength and no ap, or slow with good ap and +2 str. I was all for his axe being an ap3 unique power weapon, but after this argument I think I like the idea of an AP2 weapon. I mean, he still gets a crap load of attacks and ap2 is hard to come by now-a-days. He has a 2+ armor save and a 4++ inv save anyway. No eternal warrior might be troublesome, but we'll just have to position him into more advantageous spots in CC. It's not that hard. You make a good point that his pistol should be more than enough to deal with hordes considering the amount of attacks he has anyway. Losing an armor ignoring I6 weapon is pretty harsh for ol' Dante, however. I feel like these new rules will make playing Blood Angels more of an art form requiring more degrees of skill and tactical insight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I think it should count as a master crafted ax. Like I said, you can choose between that or a standard close combat attack anyways, so you can be fast and get a bunch of S User and AP - attacks, or you can get a bunch of slow and S +2 AP 2 attacks. Pick based on your foe. Though I think that master crafted power axe's should lose the Unwieldy trait, personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Though I think that master crafted power axe's should lose the Unwieldy trait, personally. This... what would be amazing would be if Dante didnt get any rerolls, but got a power axe that worked at init... wont happen but that'd be swell Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastellan Kong Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Also, outside of challenges, Dante should be pretty safe from Power Fists since he can't be picked out. So I'm not sure how big of a deal it is. We'll have to wait and see. :sweat: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 True, and a crap-ton of AP3 power weapon attacks aren't really that hard to come by anyway. Just look at our lovely sanguinary guard or death co. If anything, Dante getting high strength AP2 hits makes a Dante list more flexible, imho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 sorry lads, had to trash a few posts. Try keep it on topic. Feel free to start new threads if you want though! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantic Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Dante is packing an axe. Master crafted simply means he gets to re roll a miss. It doesn't make it not an axe. Vulkan Hestan is also packing a master crafted axe. Master Crafted is not a unique rule. It's a modifier given to weapons. They don't make the weapons unique. Glaive Encarmines are not safe either. They are "mastercrafted, two handed, power weapons". That is not a unique rule that makes them unique items. They are what they are, require two hands, and are power weapons (whichever they look like). If they were something otherwise, it would have been faq'd. The GK situation (while bs) is a perfect example. A nemesis force halberd gives the wielder +2 initiative. That is the special, unique rule, that makes it an unusual force weapon. There is nothing special or unique about two handed or master crafted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 My argument, even if I wasn't a BA player with a recently discovered love of Dante (I've spent the last 2 days with a bunch of boys in gold pinging around the battlefield, its great fun), I'd say he gets to keep his initiative and AP3, even if that's not the way I played it today. The reason: it has a name. Named weapons are unique (Dante's Axe Mortalis, Seth's Gore Reaver, Lemmy's Crozius, Tycho's Dead Man's Hand, though that's more of a special rule than anything else, Astorath's Executioner's Axe). And of all those unique weapons in the BA dex, only one of them has been FAQed. Logical inference, then, is that it counts as a "special" or "unique" power weapon, as it is one of a kind. Just my 2 cents, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254954-does-dantes-weapon-count-as-an-axe/page/5/#findComment-3102401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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