Does Dantes weapon count as an AXE?

[Morticon]

Dante is packing an axe.

 

Master crafted simply means he gets to re roll a miss. It doesn't make it not an axe.

 

 

Vulkan Hestan is also packing a master crafted axe.

 

Master Crafted is not a unique rule. It's a modifier given to weapons. They don't make the weapons unique.

 

That is not a unique rule that makes them unique items. They are what they are, require two hands, and are power weapons (whichever they look like).

 

 

Vulcan looks like he has a Lance- not an Axe.

 

Your argument that Master Crafted does not make them unique is maybe the strongest argument for it.

 

However,

 

Do you agree that Master Crafted is a special rule?

 

If you do (which you should) then how do you intend to follow the rule that says:

 

"If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model.."

?

 

The Axe HAS a further special rule.

 

Therefore you do not follow the "IF..THEN" rule. What then?

 

 

 

My argument, even if I wasn't a BA player with a recently discovered love of Dante (I've spent the last 2 days with a bunch of boys in gold pinging around the battlefield, its great fun), I'd say he gets to keep his initiative and AP3, even if that's not the way I played it today. The reason: it has a name. Named weapons are unique (Dante's Axe Mortalis, Seth's Gore Reaver, Lemmy's Crozius, Tycho's Dead Man's Hand, though that's more of a special rule than anything else, Astorath's Executioner's Axe). And of all those unique weapons in the BA dex, only one of them has been FAQed. Logical inference, then, is that it counts as a "special" or "unique" power weapon, as it is one of a kind. Just my 2 cents, though.

 

I thought this too, but wasnt sure if it was my Diablo 2 experience influencing my decision :D

[Mezkh]

Having played two games yesterday, what I realised is,

 

Most of you are accounting for Initiative 1 as it is in 5th edition, judging it's impact by that ruleset.

 

BUT

 

As soon as you play some assaults in 6th, you'll see that the change to pile in 3" at each initiative step, determining who is engaged at each initiative step, + casualty removal from the front REALLY changes things.

 

Example, my Assault Squad Powerfist Sarge was leading from the rear, because of the new shooting casualties removed from the front rule. Turns out Init 1 in the rear in assault is a good thing too!

 

When assaulted by some Ork Burna Boyz, My assault Marines piled in 3" first, killed some Orks in base to base. Then the Orks piled in 3", had to remove the Assault marines in BtB, and the powerfist Sarge would be the last to be removed from any casualties they did. Then come HIS turn, he gets to walk forward 3" and smash some heads. Effectively the I1 guy is 'safe' from casualty removal until he fights.

 

If you're correctly placing I1 models to the rear of your units, the only problem they have is if your unit is wiped before they get to strike. And Challenges. But being Blood Angels, we have a lot of characters who can step in to take the challenges issued. And the Sanguinary Priest is EXCELLENT in almost all potential challenge scenarios.

[SamaNagol]

sorry lads, had to trash a few posts.

 

Try keep it on topic. Feel free to start new threads if you want though!

 

Thanks for deleting my new found appreciation of the all DC list and leaving 3 pages of people arguing the toss about an axe with master crafted. Appreciated :D

 

Edit.... now that you edited the thread title... makes sense now lol

[Atlantic]

I think you are following this situation to the logical conclusion. Just because it is logical, does not make it true or correct.

 

I'm not sure if master crafted is a special rule or a master crafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon.

 

I think the spirit of the rule book here suggests that we should be looking for unusual weapons. These unusual weapons have unusual rules (Seth's Chainsword, The +2 ini halberds, stuff like that). These items have specific and unique profiles.

 

There is nothing unique or special about master crafted or two handed.

[Morticon]

Where exactly does it say that Dante has an axe rules-wise, though? From what I see, he has a mastercrafted powerweapon, that looks like an axe...so I could exchange his axe for a sword and be fine. That's a bit unclear right now. Gonna play him like he's got a normal powerweapon.

 

 

 

Snorri

 

 

Havent read past the 2nd page yet- stopped when i got to this, so Ill go back and read.

 

But i'm with Snorri on this.

 

They specifically changed Lemartes'weapon to say MC powermaul - they didnt with Dante, therefore i'm assuming thats on purpose. Since its a PW with a special rule I'm of the belief its Ap3

 

Keep this thread to rules on the axe please. All else will be nuked.

 

 

 

Did you miss the title of the thread Sama?

 

Or maybe the above warning on page 2?

 

edit: saw the ninja edit!

 

yeh = all on the axe stuff now sadly.

[Morticon]

I think you are following this situation to the logical conclusion. Just because it is logical, does not make it true or correct.

 

I'm not sure if master crafted is a special rule or a master crafted power weapon is a master crafted power weapon.

 

I think the spirit of the rule book here suggests that we should be looking for unusual weapons. These unusual weapons have unusual rules (Seth's Chainsword, The +2 ini halberds, stuff like that). These items have specific and unique profiles.

 

There is nothing unique or special about master crafted or two handed.

 

 

I think this is probably the intent. Seems odd to make an Axe not be an Axe.

 

Maybe GW thought that cause its so blatantly an Axe people wont question it (without the consideration of how they wrote the exception rules)

[Leksington]

Dante is packing an axe.

 

Master crafted simply means he gets to re roll a miss. It doesn't make it not an axe.

 

Vulkan Hestan is also packing a master crafted axe.

 

Master Crafted is not a unique rule. It's a modifier given to weapons. They don't make the weapons unique.

 

 

Glaive Encarmines are not safe either. They are "mastercrafted, two handed, power weapons".

 

That is not a unique rule that makes them unique items. They are what they are, require two hands, and are power weapons (whichever they look like).

 

If they were something otherwise, it would have been faq'd.

 

There is nothing special or unique about two handed or master crafted.

So what is a glaive then? Is it an Axe or a Power Sword? I'd say you look to the model like the rules say.

 

I'd apply the same rule to a counts-as dante. It is a power weapon, and you look to the model. If it is modeled with a sword, it counts as a power sword. The name of the weapon is not the rule. Otherwise a Glaive Encarmine would be a polearm weapon.

[SamaNagol]

I think it is safe to say that the new Power Weapon rules have made 'Counts As' conversions a lot more restrictive now

[daboarder]

Or a sword depending on the century.

[knife&fork]

If you're correctly placing I1 models to the rear of your units, the only problem they have is if your unit is wiped before they get to strike.

 

That might be true in the context of one combat. But my main concern isn't Dante surviving to strike (although it is one of them) It's thinning out a unit as soon as possible to minimize return attacks so that I can continue to win more combats down the line. Doesn't matter that much against orks as we go before them anyway, but take a BA assault squad vs a kitted grey hunter unit and it's a completely different story with the +I from FC gone.

[Atlantic]

Dante is packing an axe.

 

Master crafted simply means he gets to re roll a miss. It doesn't make it not an axe.

 

Vulkan Hestan is also packing a master crafted axe.

 

Master Crafted is not a unique rule. It's a modifier given to weapons. They don't make the weapons unique.

 

 

Glaive Encarmines are not safe either. They are "mastercrafted, two handed, power weapons".

 

That is not a unique rule that makes them unique items. They are what they are, require two hands, and are power weapons (whichever they look like).

 

If they were something otherwise, it would have been faq'd.

 

There is nothing special or unique about two handed or master crafted.

So what is a glaive then? Is it an Axe or a Power Sword? I'd say you look to the model like the rules say.

 

I'd apply the same rule to a counts-as dante. It is a power weapon, and you look to the model. If it is modeled with a sword, it counts as a power sword. The name of the weapon is not the rule. Otherwise a Glaive Encarmine would be a polearm weapon.

 

 

If you want to be really restrictive, a glaive is a halberd. A halberd is an axe.

 

I think with the Sanguinary Guard, you need to look at the model. The guys with swords are still cooler, that guy with the double axe not so much.

[Radiation]

Just like NFW, Glaive Encarmines are covered in the Unusual Power Weapons rule. They have their own name. They are not "power weapon." They are Glaive Encarmine. They also have "one or more unique rules." "...a two-handed master-crafted weapon." That is not a "Power Weapons" and cannot fall under the category of "Types of Power Weapons" where it says, "...a power weapon which has no further special rules" and then uses a table to unlock rules for a "Power axe." Therefore, you have to continue on to "Unusual Power Weapons" where it states "...power weapons that have one or more unique rules...treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

It can't be more clear. There is nothing in the rules that says, 'add the named (Glaive Encarmine, The Axe Mortalis) unique weapon type rule or more than one rule to the Power Weapons type of your modeled choosing.' A Glaive Encarmine is an Unusual Power Weapon is a Glaive Encarmine. A The Axe Mortalis is an Unusual Power Weapon is a The Axe Mortalis.

 

They changed Lemartes Crozius specifically not so you can follow their creative example and change every other Unusual Power Weapon in the Codex to how you see fit even if it might be fun to see Dante chasing down Terminators.

 

Lemartes still has an Unusual Power Weapon although it is no longer AP 3 Melee. It now includes within its Unusual rules the same stats as a "Power maul" as well as its own additional unique rules. That doesn't make it a "Power Weapon" and subject to the "Types of Power Weapons" table and it doesn't give us the ability to do the same to anyone elses "Unusual Power Weapon."

[Atlantic]

I think it is safe to say that the new Power Weapon rules have made 'Counts As' conversions a lot more restrictive now

 

 

Yep

 

For my chaosy blood angels, I borrowed a chaos terminator power axe to put on my terminator sanguinary priest. That arm is coming off quick.

 

But on the other hand, I made a scratch built librarian with a hammer for a force weapon. He is sitting pretty.

 

Just like NFW, Glaive Encarmines are covered in the Unusual Power Weapons rule. They have their own name. They are not "power weapon." They are Glaive Encarmine. They also have "one or more unique rules." "...a two-handed master-crafted weapon." That is not a "Power Weapons" and cannot fall under the category of "Types of Power Weapons" where it says, "...a power weapon which has no further special rules" and then uses a table to unlock rules for a "Power axe." Therefore, you have to continue on to "Unusual Power Weapons" where it states "...power weapons that have one or more unique rules...treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

It can't be more clear. There is nothing in the rules that says, 'add the named (Glaive Encarmine, The Axe Mortalis) unique weapon type rule or more than one rule to the Power Weapons type of your modeled choosing.' A Glaive Encarmine is an Unusual Power Weapon is a Glaive Encarmine. A The Axe Mortalis is an Unusual Power Weapon is a The Axe Mortalis.

 

They changed Lemartes Crozius specifically not so you can follow their creative example and change every other Unusual Power Weapon in the Codex to how you see fit even if it might be fun to see Dante chasing down Terminators.

 

Lemartes still has an Unusual Power Weapon although it is no longer AP 3 Melee. It now includes within its Unusual rules the same stats as a "Power maul" as well as its own additional unique rules. That doesn't make it a "Power Weapon" and subject to the "Types of Power Weapons" table and it doesn't give us the ability to do the same to anyone elses "Unusual Power Weapon."

 

 

There is nothing unique about two handed or master crafted. Those are not profiles either.

 

Dante's axe just has a name. There is nothing special about it.

 

Gorechild had a much more compelling entry, and guess what, it's a power axe.

 

I might be wrong, but right now I think it is pretty clear the faq is on my side. They did not leave this out of the faq by chance.

[Blindhamster]

indeed, they left it out because they thought it was obvious that glaive encarmines/axe mortalis/executioners axe were all non standard named power weapons and fell within the 'AP3' category.

 

for what it's worth, I usually run dante in an honour guard, so the blood champ would be accepting all challanges anyway, on that line of thought, Mort is right, AP2 lower init might well be better. That being said, higher init AP3 seems just as likely and is preferable as I don't think dante should be the terminator smashing character...

[Morticon]

There is nothing unique about two handed or master crafted. Those are not profiles either.

 

Dante's axe just has a name. There is nothing special about it.

 

Thats where the crux of both argument lies.

However, (as posted above)

 

Do you agree that Master Crafted is a special rule?

 

If you do (which you should) then how do you intend to follow the rule that says:

 

QUOTE

"If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model.." ?

 

The Axe HAS a further special rule.

 

Therefore you do not follow the "IF..THEN" rule. What then?

[Leksington]

Or a sword depending on the century.

What century was it a sword?

[Morticon]

For what it's worth, I think with the current GW zeitgeist, I think they fully intend for it to be an Axe.

Just wish it was outlined.

[Radiation]

Atlantic: Show me in the new rulebook or the new FAQ where it states that "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" "Power axe" have access to "two-handed" or "master-crafted." If you can do that, then I think you win and I will use Dante to hunt Terminators.

[henryc]

Both "two handed" and "master-crafted" are in the special rules section of the rule book. Thereby making the rules of discussed weapons special. Both "the axe mortalis" and "glaives encarmine" behave at stat line iniative and as AP 3. Those weapons FAQ'd were done so because they were different. Why? Because GW wants it that way. :tu:

[Atlantic]

I'm not sure that Master Crafted is a special rule. I know two handed is not a special rule for the sake of the Glaives Encarmine.

 

You might be erroneously breaking master crafted off from power weapon, when it should not be.

 

Is there a special rule in the rule book called master crafted?

 

I don't recall seeing one last night.

 

 

 

I find it very compelling that gore child, the nfw's, crozius arcanums, lemartes, and all of these other items were stated to be what they are, while these were not.

 

 

We are far from the only codex affected by this. I haven't seen anything in the SM faq either.

 

I don't like these changes either, but we can't just say 'they are unique' when there is nothing unique about how they are described.

[henryc]

They're definitely both in the special rules section.

[Radiation]

Atlantic: You still have not found a rule giving "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" access to "two-handed" or "master-crafted."

[Morticon]

I find it very compelling that gore child, the nfw's, crozius arcanums, lemartes, and all of these other items were stated to be what they are, while these were not.

 

Odd thing is, Im of the belief this gives credence to the AP3 debate. In my mind, they didnt need to clarify the Axe because its different. And they wanted to give Lemartes the maul. If they didnt they wouldnt have clarified, since you can just look at the weapon?

Thoughts?

 

Im still unsure.

[Chaplain Admetus]

This is one of those really irritating cases where both arguments have equal merit (at least the way I see it), so its quite hard to come up with a definitive answer without a GW ruling. Ah well.... Might just put the offending units away until we get a ruling. Will haul out my much beloved librarian and spend the next few games messing with psychic powers to see what the rulebook ones are like.

[Atlantic]

Atlantic: You still have not found a rule giving "Power Weapons" "Types of Power Weapons" or "Power axe" access to "two-handed" or "master-crafted."

 

Duh?

 

That is pretty clear here.

 

 

What I'm getting at is, just because it reads the way the rule book says it should, does not necessarily mean it is a correct interpretation.

 

Gorechild should have fallen heavily under what you are saying. It sure didn't.

 

I have a feeling this is about "Unique" items. Items that do unique things with unique stats. The crux of my argument is there is nothing unique about two handed or master crafted.

 

 

I hope you guys are right. I have a feeling you probably aren't.