Does Dantes weapon count as an AXE?

[daboarder]

A glaive is a halberd if you want to be restrictive. Halberds are axes according to the rules.

 

 

Again a glaive is not a halberd a glaive is a sword, it is a french word likely derived from the latin "gladius". It wasn't until the 1400's that it was used in reference to polearms. Given the models it is quite clear that "glaive Encarmine" references the sword as there are no models with anything even remotely resembling a polearm in the box. Further more to call a "halberd" an "axe" is basically like calling a bolt action rifle and an assault rifle the same thing.

[Leksington]

A glaive is a halberd if you want to be restrictive. Halberds are axes according to the rules.

 

 

Again a glaive is not a halberd a glaive is a sword, it is a french word likely derived from the latin "gladius". It wasn't until the 1400's that it was used in reference to polearms. Given the models it is quite clear that "glaive Encarmine" references the sword as there are no models with anything even remotely resembling a polearm in the box. Further more to call a "halberd" an "axe" is basically like calling a bolt action rifle and an assault rifle the same thing.

To say that a halberd is not a glaive would be incorrect (I'd point out that despite word origins, the weapon isn't a Gladius Encarmine). Furthermore, it wasn't Atlantic that equated halberds to axes; that comes straight from the BRB. And if you are hinting that GW thinks a glaive is a sword, why are almost half of the GEs axes? ;)

 

What can we conclude from this? GW dropped the ball with their FAQs, especially when it came to clarifying the weapons.

[daboarder]

I can add further evidence in support of AP3..

If the models wargear says it has a power weapon that has NO FURTHER special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has...

 

Emphasis mine, regardless of how you determine the model the governing premise is that the Ace Mortalis is a power weapon WITH further special rules therefore it falls under the generic AP3 rule.

 

so the steps are:

 

1) is it a power weapon :yes

2) does it have further special rules: yes

 

therefore it must be AP3

[knife&fork]

This thread is an embarrassment to the BA sub-forum.

 

 

 

.... and to the GW FAQ writers ;)

[Pascalnz]

thankyou!!, I just registered to make that excact same point.. darn ninja:P

also it's on page 61:P

ninjad again!!

 

I was writing to reply to daboarder's post and agreeing, the rules are really clear.. That part of the FAQ writing is fine.. the part that's embarrasing in the BA codex is

saying independant characters with the red thirst can only join dc and other squads with the red thirst

only thing.. characters don't have the red thirst special rule.. le sigh

[henryc]

Good morning ladies and gents ;). I just wanted to add my last 2 cents to this conversation before leaving it be.

 

In my most humble of opinions both "the axe mortalis" and the "Galives Encarmine" are meant to be played at stat line iniative 6 AP3 and Iniative 4 ap3 respectively. This is why:

 

Ruling on Power weapons in the new rule book

 

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power waepon it has: if it's a sword or dagger, it's a power sword; if it's an axe or halberd, it's a power axe; if it's a blunt weapon like a mace or staff, it's a power maul; if it's a spear or lance, it's a power lance."

 

It specifically says "which has no further special rules"

 

Both "Master-Crafted" and "Two Handed" are in the special rules section of the new rule book.

 

Glaive Encarmine: A glaive Encarmine is a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. (codex: blood angels)

 

The Axe Mortalis: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. (codex: blood angels)

 

Many weapons were FAQ'd to show that they were to be made exceptions of the new ruling on power weapons as written above. Including Lemartes' "crozius of blood". The fact that our Glaives and Axe mortalis were not should be very clear that they should be following the new rules as clearly stated.

 

I realise that some Glaives look like axes and Dante's weapon also looks like an axe but they are special weapons that follow different rules to the standard power weapons. We've had special weapons that dont follow normal rules before. A new edition will always cause crossed wires because of language and rule changes but they have made it as clear as they can, without rewriting all codicies for 6th edition, that the aforementioned weapons are to remain as they were in 5th but now at AP 3. Maybe because they're Blood Angels and having Blood Angels slow and sluggish in combat goes against what they have planned for our Angels.

 

People have mentioned this "unique" thing that is throwing some people off the scent. It doesnt say Unique anywhere that ive seen. I think it was a forum poster that used that word. All we need to do is read the ruling above and then check if the FAQ counters that ruling, which it does not.

 

For arguments sake "the Axe Mortalis" and "Glaives Encarmine" are just axes(if you must) that sacrifice strength for speed because they are Blood Angels weapons and we've created these weapons with that extra speed because we're so riddled with blood thirst that we dont need the extra weight.

 

H

[fallingplate]

Good morning ladies and gents ;). I just wanted to add my last 2 cents to this conversation before leaving it be.

 

In my most humble of opinions both "the axe mortalis" and the "Galives Encarmine" are meant to be played at stat line iniative 6 AP3 and Iniative 4 ap3 respectively. This is why:

 

Ruling on Power weapons in the new rule book

 

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power waepon it has: if it's a sword or dagger, it's a power sword; if it's an axe or halberd, it's a power axe; if it's a blunt weapon like a mace or staff, it's a power maul; if it's a spear or lance, it's a power lance."

 

It specifically says "which has no further special rules"

 

Both "Master-Crafted" and "Two Handed" are in the special rules section of the new rule book.

 

Glaive Encarmine: A glaive Encarmine is a two-handed master-crafted power weapon. (codex: blood angels)

 

The Axe Mortalis: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. (codex: blood angels)

 

Many weapons were FAQ'd to show that they were to be made exceptions of the new ruling on power weapons as written above. Including Lemartes' "crozius of blood". The fact that our Glaives and Axe mortalis were not should be very clear that they should be following the new rules as clearly stated.

 

I realise that some Glaives look like axes and Dante's weapon also looks like an axe but they are special weapons that follow different rules to the standard power weapons. We've had special weapons that dont follow normal rules before. A new edition will always cause crossed wires because of language and rule changes but they have made it as clear as they can, without rewriting all codicies for 6th edition, that the aforementioned weapons are to remain as they were in 5th but now at AP 3. Maybe because they're Blood Angels and having Blood Angels slow and sluggish in combat goes against what they have planned for our Angels.

 

People have mentioned this "unique" thing that is throwing some people off the scent. It doesnt say Unique anywhere that ive seen. I think it was a forum poster that used that word. All we need to do is read the ruling above and then check if the FAQ counters that ruling, which it does not.

 

For arguments sake "the Axe Mortalis" and "Glaives Encarmine" are just axes(if you must) that sacrifice strength for speed because they are Blood Angels weapons and we've created these weapons with that extra speed because we're so riddled with blood thirst that we dont need the extra weight.

 

H

 

This has got to be one of the most sensible posts so far on this subject with good referencing.

 

I will be copying this post to print and carry in my BA codex from this point on as it clears up the argument for me completely.

 

I bow to your superior logic engines!!!!!!

[Morticon]

Guys,

 

Time to shut this puppy down.

Thanks to all for contributing.

 

(And thanks for registering Pascalnz!)

 

 

This has gone on for 9 pages with the following two main arguments continually circling.

Here is the review:

 

Preamble

 

Dantes Rule:

The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

 

Rule Book 61:

"If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

1. DANTES AXE COUNTS AS A POWER AXE

 

* It is modeled with an Axe. Therefore looking at it, you see he has an axe.

* The special rule: "Master Crafted" does not count as a "unique rule" as mentioned on page 61. As a result, you cannot claim it's AP3.

* Kharne's axe was specified to be a Power Axe and it has more unique rules than Dante's .

 

2. DANTES AXES COUNTS AS A POWER WEAPON

 

* "Master Crafted" does count as unique and therefore is AP3.

* In order to look at the model's weapon to determine what it is that weapon must first fit the condition of having: "no special rules". Since it does have a special rule, you cannot fulfill this condition.

* Lemartes' Crozius was explicitly stated to be a Power Maul (master crafted) in the FAQ- it was done so with the weapon having the exact same conditions as Dante's Axe and also being able to follow the guidelines as listed in the above argument.

 

 

 

As you can all see the argument rests sorely on the shoulders of a somewhat poor (lacking) definition of "unique" and a contradiction in the interaction of the "Look and see" rule with the "unique power weapons" rule. This is because Master Crafted is not a "unique" rule by itself, but we cannot follow the "look and see" rule since the Axe has additional rules.

 

This may have to be resolved by a D6 roll or by agreement in your local clubs.

 

Jury is out at the BnC.

 

 

Thanks to all for contributing.