scout armies in 6th

[greatcrusade08]

So ive been able to digest the rulebook and have some questions answered by the dedicated chaps at the -OR- forum.

 

its going to take some time to playtest the new mission types with scout armies but before that we have to look at what rules have changed.. whats good and whats bad for scout armies in 6th ed.

 

First off, the snipers. In 5th it was snipers and ccw scouts that formed the majority of peoples inclusions. Sadly i expect ccw scouts to drop off the grid however on the flip side i expect a surge of telion led sniper squads.

So Telion has precision shot on all his shooting, same as 5th, however all snipers who roll a 6 to hit also get precision shots (same for ICs, which includes squad leaders).

the good thing is you allocate wounds and not hits, which means if those precision hits rend your taking models of your choosing off the board, which is always nice.

something to consider is that characters (read unit leaders) can be saved by look out sir rule (on 4+) so its probably wiser to place rending wounds on special/heavy weapons models before risking wasting the rending on a 50/50 roll.

also cover saves work on individual models now, so even if most of the enemies troops are in terrain you can always snipe those stragglers in the open even if they arent the closest model.

 

Telion keeps his stealth rule, which grants a +1 cover save on the whole unit, it also means he has a 6+ cover save in the open, he has also been FAQd with a camo cloak which has been changed from granting stealth to giving +1 cover save.

this means the two stack for a +2 cover save, even giving 5+ in the open.

things like going to ground can further stack, as does shrouding from night fighting, infact its possible to have a 2+ cover save standing in open ground.

the negative to all this is that youd now want to purchase claoks for the rest of telions squad, in essence making him more expensive than in 5th.

 

Shrike and fleet:

in 5th it was common to see Ics give force multiplying abilties to scouts, the best was shrikes army wide fleet USR, sadly the rule for fleet has changed and it offers no real benefit to scout armies (well some re-rolls, but overall not as good).

also the 6th ed rulebook has changed things to state that any unit who infiltrate/scout or enter from reserve (read outflank) cannot assault in that turn.

essentially rendering all alpha strikes and a whole playstyle obsolete.

bad GW!!

 

Scout bikes are pretty much the same as before (minus alpha strikes etc), bikes now have full T5 instead of that silly T(4)5, of course it matters little to single wound models.

what is good is the new rules bikers have, Jink which grants a 5+ cover save if they move (4+ for flat out) and hammer of wrath which are like impact hits when they charge.. automatic hits at base strength one per model at I10.

that gives them a little more survivability, and a little more cc hitting power.

I would probably revisit the "can scout bike sergeants have GLs" at some point at the new precison shots rule would give it more of a bonus than just the extra BS.

 

Storms are also very similar to 5th, open topped rules are the same, +1 to damage table, all passengers can shoot out.

the new snap shot rules are nice, as are the overwatch rules for passengers shooting at enemies who charge thier vehicles.

of course open topped vehciles are assault vehicles, so scouts can disembark and charge, a few caveats however

-cannot charge in the turn they use scout

-cannot disembark if the speeder moves over 6"

also scout moves have changed a little and a storm now only has a 12" scout move, this does limit thier potential range tbh, if the opponent isnt deployed directly opposite on 24" its going to be hard to do the same kind of damage as in 5th ed.

storms have the jink rule, so keep that baby moving.

one thing they cleared up since the confusion caused by game/player turns in 5th is that if you move flat out and are immobilised in the next turn (ie your opponent shoots it) then its wrecked

 

Thunderfire cannons, ok not a scout choice, but i have used them in my scout armies for years and love them.

they can still bolster ruins for extra cover on the snipers (if they need it)

artillery rules have changed quite a bit, they are now T7 W2 and sv3+, which makes them alot more survivable.

whats more when shooting at the unit you always resolve against the guns T7 even if the crewman is the closest model.

given our techy has a 2+ save it could be handy to resolve shooting against his T7 and 2+ save, anything bar a lascannon or melta shot is going to struggle to take them down, especially if they are in cover too.

 

new to 6th are fortifications, a great coice for scouts are the aegis lines.

they grant a 4+ cover save (+2 for G2G), with stealth and claoks thats an instant 2+ cover for your snipy boys and whats more with flyers prevelent Telion could go to town with one of the weapon upgrades.

the two available choices are the icarus lascannon with its huge 96" range S9 AP2, its twin linked aswell so at BS6 you could make bets on it never missing.

it also has skyfire and interceptor rules so when an eenmey comes in from reserve (read flyers) you can take a shot in thier movement phase.

the lascannon would be my choice when combined with telion as S9 should be good enough for most flyers (i think stormraven is toughest at AV12) and the important AP2 for +1 to damage rolls.

however anyone with a lesser BS could make good use of the quad gun, which is bascially 2 autocannons twin linked.. mortis dread anyone?

 

the bastion is the second choice, although slightly more expensive , the real negative for this IMO is the fact that when it get destroyed it takes most of your chaps with it... nah the 2+ saves for the aegis lines is far better IMO.

 

Also Warlord traits, its worth noting that against rumours special characters can take warlord traits.

for scout armies the strategic traits seem talior made, heres a quick rundown.

its a random effect roll a D6

1: army wide stealth (ruins) can be combined with cloaks and bolster ruins for some really tasty saves.

2: night fighting, shrouding stacks with cover saves

3: outflankers get acute senses (can reroll table edge)

4: Re-roll reserves

5: enemy is at -1 reserves

6: can choose one of the following:

• redeploy one unit 3D6
  redploy 3 units D6 each
  

they cant leave your DZ, but as its done before scout moves and infiltrate it means you get the scout move ontop.

its perfect for storms who deploy normally to get a good line on enemy vehicles.

 

 

so rundown of it all, the anvil (defensive) units are stronger/better, but the hammer units have been hit with the nerf bat, really hard.

storms teams should be built with shooting in mind, if you cant get a good line on a juciy target move flat out and hope your still alive to batter something in the next turn.

with challenges and easier to destroy vehciles i predict the slow phase out of fists and a return to power swords/maces/relci blades/claws etc.. initiative is going to be important,

thankfully scouts have I4 aswell so can match our MEQ counterparts for that.

[The Yak]

Cheers GC08

 

I haven't got the rulebook yet but this is a great heads up on how my scouts will work. Those strategic warlord traits look tailor made for Raptor lovin!

 

I think 10 man combi flamer led tactical scouts with a heavy bolter, look interesting with the new overwatch/snap shot rules.

[DarkGuard]

Some good initial thoughts into Scout armies in 6th Ed GC08. I'm particularly interested by the snipers with Telion, I'll certainly be looking to getting some of them into the army. The annoying thing is that the 5 strong unit I took will now be 147pts, it's 7 I don't like there. :sweat:

 

Also, just a minor correction. You mention the Icarus lascannon has twin-linked with the Aegis Line. That's not quite right. With the Aegis Line and bastion the Icarus lascannon is not twin-linked, with the Fortress of Redemption it is. Something to consider, which is also why I'd mostly be taking the quad gun with my Aegis Lines and attempt to glance the flier to death.

[Sons of the Forge]

Well in someways the buying of cameo cloaks is a good thing as I can place my snipers in a building without having to use a techmarines defence boost to get a +2 cover save. Means I can spread them out instead of all hiding in one building. Plus an extra 27pts onto a 10man, Telion, ML squad isnt that much of an increase really.

[Cornelias]

Thankfully i'd only just started building my new scout army before all this came about, although having just built my shrike conversion i'm gonna have to have a real good think about if he's going to be useful anymore...........

 

My old cunning plan was to have a half drop pod/half infiltrating army list (nothing starting on the board during deployment, until placing infiltrators) dropping melta dreads in first turn to open transports or destroy main armour threats and have scouts alpha strike in support with shrike and a hammer unit. seems that's pretty much a deal breaker now, dam!

 

Possibly toy with the idea of having a shooty (bolter) scout squad with Shrike infiltrating a plasma command squad in to support them and put a real thorn in my opponents half of the board.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Thanks for this insightful article.

 

I agree that the alpha strike has been nerfed. Thank goodness i still have some scouts with shotguns.. But now... what to do with the CCW scouts?

 

If they cannot assault after they outflank with the storm then could they be deployed as infiltrate foot troops? A small distraction?

[greatcrusade08]

the issue with ccw scouts is that they have to survive a round of shooting and then stand and shoot before they can assault.

thier survival rate dropped with the release of 6th ed IMO.

 

im going to use blood angel allies, for 550 points i can get an allied detachment of reclusiarch, priest and 10 ccw scouts with PWs on the latter two.

all riding in a stormraven.

should make a nice combo for the C:SM units.

 

im sticking with my core of ten snipers with telion and dual t-fires, becuase they were both improved with 6th ed, a couple of LSS even though they were nerfed, just becuase its my theme.

 

ive been stuck with what else to take, i was thinking of running Calgar with scout bikes.

if i can get calgar in front, then he gets T5 from shooting (majority) and the bikes get a 2+ save with look out sir on a 2+.

 

Possibly toy with the idea of having a shooty (bolter) scout squad with Shrike infiltrating a plasma command squad in to support them and put a real thorn in my opponents half of the board.

I think the old Shrike and hammernators idea has got alot of legs to it now tbh, they couldnt charge first turn anyway.

with new PW rules and shrike to win challenges, youd only need a couple to survive enemy shooting to reach combat

[Jaigo]

Wouldn't the Fortress of Redemption be great aswell?

I am really thinking on going for one. The cannon is great, for a huge 250 you also have the fragstorm missles.

Getting HB's in would be too much. Or it would be given to a tactical squad or even scout squad of 5 using them. But it gives an 3+ cover already. So I was planning to have my thunderfire cannon in there, bolster defense and giving all units inside 2+ cover.

Thunderfire cannon, snipers and perhaps even dev's would be relative safe there.

[greatcrusade08]

it suddenly occured to me today that telion and snipers precision shots can be allocated to the same model, as wound allocation rules have changed.

precision shots overall the 6th ed wound allocation (closest model) so you could infact use it to stack wounds on multiple wound models like ork nobs etc.

 

taking into account of course that hes a character and as such has a 4+ look out sir, but still if you get 3 or 4 precision shots to hit, it might be worth taking the chance

 

alternatively, assuming you get no rending wounds on the precision shots, stack them all on a single special/heavy weapons guys, 3 wounds should equal a dead marine.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

ive been stuck with what else to take, i was thinking of running Calgar with scout bikes.

if i can get calgar in front, then he gets T5 from shooting (majority) and the bikes get a 2+ save with look out sir on a 2+.

 

How could Calgar so with the scout bikes when he is always on foot? Is there something i missed.

[greatcrusade08]

scout bikes would move slower, theres no restrictions of what unit Ics can join aslong as they move at the slowest speed to maintain coherancy.

[Derrios]

I am debating running 2 squads of snipers and 2 CC/storm squads (melta probably). wondering how you guys see this working in 6th. I have 4 tact squads I can move in and out too depending on how this ends up working.

[greatcrusade08]

scout snipers got better and work exactly the same as in 5th

melta storm teams got worse overall and require alot more finesse to get off shots on turn one, it is doable though.

aslong as your not running too many other outflankers, its also doable to run them in reserve/outflank

[Kierdale]

Do you think BP&CCW or shotgun scouts, perhaps in a LSS with heavy flamer and sergeant with combi-flamer would be useful as a late-game objective-seizer/contester?

[greatcrusade08]

they are still viable, but not being able to charge when arriving from reserve is really going to reduce thier chances of survival.

also you cant just move flat out and hope for the 4+ cover saves, becuase if its downed by the enemy shooting all the guys on board die.

[greatcrusade08]

a quick addition, ill get round to editing the OP eventually

 

Telion can use his VoE ability to fire snap shots at flyers with the squads ML

specialist rules take precedence over the basic BRB rules and modifiers are applied by the player whos turn it is.. so although snap shots are fired at BS1, VoE is applied at BS6.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Inputting some game experience.

I used some scout bikes in a game and they did perform ok. Having the 'nade launcher on 1 bike help glanced a flyer in my game. It was not much, but each hull point taken off is a boon for me. Too bad they did not make up for their points by end of the game.

 

Hmm. I will have to keep that in mind with Telion.

[greatcrusade08]

he can also move ad snap shot the ML with VoE..

[Lucien Eilam]

Wouldn't the Fortress of Redemption be great aswell? […] So I was planning to have my thunderfire cannon in there, bolster defense

 

Bolster Defences only works on Ruins.

[Captain Idaho]

he can also move ad snap shot the ML with VoE..

 

Are we sure about this though?

 

Anyway, I was going to ask; what about Bolter Scouts? They surely are a little more versatile now?

[greatcrusade08]

he can also move ad snap shot the ML with VoE..

 

Are we sure about this though?

 

when they move heavy weapons can only snap shot, but telion can still lend his VoE BS6, so it works exactly the same way as shooting at flyers.

 

Anyway, I was going to ask; what about Bolter Scouts? They surely are a little more versatile now?

yes, they are not bad, infiltrate/scout are still pretty much the same so no huge change for them.. thier snap shot is the same as anyone elses, lower BS doesnt matter for that.

i imagine more people running them in LSS now.

 

speaking of which, if GW make LSS dedicated in the next dex, scouts will be able to infiltrate the speeders themselves, making them far more like 5th edition in terms of playability.. lets keep our fingers crossed

[Captain Idaho]

I believe that is incorrect. Telion lends his BS skill to the Scout and his Missile Launcher, which is used to Snap Fire, thus changing it from BS6 to BS1.

[greatcrusade08]

I believe that is incorrect. Telion lends his BS skill to the Scout and his Missile Launcher, which is used to Snap Fire, thus changing it from BS6 to BS1.

 

the modifiers section of the BGB shows us how modifiers work, first you multiply then add/subtract and lastly apply set figures (snap fire, signum and VoE all here)

the section on exceptions tells us that the players who turn it is decides which order the figures are applied in.

so as its my turn id apply the snap fire BS1 first, then apply telions BS6.

 

seahawk explains it alot better than me anyway

 

edit: heres my first 6th ed list for scouts, feel free to comment

[Captain Idaho]

He did explain it well, and the Modifiers section on pg2 say you apply set modifiers last and doesn't mention anything about the order you apply set modifiers when you have more than one. Since they both are assigned simultaneously then until it is clarified in an FAQ, don't you have to roll off to decide which takes precedence. As Unwieldy and Banshee Masks explained in the FAQ for Eldar, I believe.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually I am wrong! Just re-read Seahawk's explanation and page 9 is a great thing for us! Whose turn it is decides the order of things; so we choose Snap Fire then Signum/VoE.

 

That's handy!