scout armies in 6th

[greatcrusade08]

well RAI can be important in friendly groups, but RAw is RAW and most TOs recognise this.

if it helps a good friend of mine contacted GW about several rules queries, heres the response

 

just recieved 2 emails from GW.

 

First from GWUS, saying they can't answer rules questions. The second I will quote below.

 

 

QUOTE

Good Morning James

 

Thanks for the email about the New Warhammer 40'000 rules. We would be happy to answer your questions about the new Warhammer 40'000 rules, Are you running a Blood Angel army at the moment and what are you running in your list?

 

1) There has been some debate over what qualifies as a unusual power weapon (or Force weapon). Here are a few examples and I am wondering if they qualify. All have special rules, which by page 61 says they do not go look at the weapon to determine type.

 

Dante's Axe Mortalis

Glaive Encarmines

Astorath's Executioner's Axe

Relic Blades

Demon Weapons

Ahriman's Black Staff.

 

All of these weapons do count as Unusual power weapons and are AP3 in close combat, as they all have other rule other than being a power weapon.

 

2) Does Captain Tycho have an AP Value? Or does he just ignore all armor saves?

 

Brother Captain Tyco just Ignores all armour saves with the Dead Mans Hand, and rolls a extra D6 for armour penatration. How cool is that?

 

3) If I use a signum to make a shooter BS5, does that override the snapfire restriction for firing a moving heavy weapon or shooting a flyer?

 

Yes but it can only be used in the Shooting phase, not when being charged.

 

4) Can Artillery fire overwatch (assuming the artillery is not blast such as Ork Artillery)

 

Yes as long as the weapon is not a blast weapon.

 

Hope that this helps and if you have any other questions please contact us again.

[Br.Pat]

Please see if you can get a screenshot of the e-mail, as any person can write up an e-mail "from GW". Don't mean to be pedantic.. but yeah.

[greatcrusade08]

Please see if you can get a screenshot of the e-mail, as any person can write up an e-mail "from GW". Don't mean to be pedantic.. but yeah.

 

nah, its ok mate, im not about to 'prove' anything to anyone.. if you dont want to trust thats upto you, but i wont be accused of faking a GW email to win an argument..

[Br.Pat]

That's fine. But an "e-mail" from GW isn't an FAQ. I mean, why doesn't what you posted even have the name of the representative that sent the e-mail? If you post a source that can't be verified, how is that meant to prove anything?

 

Btw, I just received an e-mail from GW saying that rhinos can fire 3 weapons from their top hatch. Rgs GW Dev team.

[greatcrusade08]

That's fine. But an "e-mail" from GW isn't an FAQ.

 

just to clairfy a few things here.

i dont need an FAQ, RAW is clear on this matter..

your argument is that its not how its intended (RAI) and as such youd need an FAQ to back up any argument.

 

rules are rules are rules are rules..

rules say the tactic is legitimate, no need to be as difficult as you have been about it IMO.. thanks for dragging this thread way off topic about such a trivial matter.

if you and your friends want to play a certain way, more power to you.. but as mentioned my own games club have acceopted the RAW version.

 

nuff said really

[ak-73]

That's fine. But an "e-mail" from GW isn't an FAQ. I mean, why doesn't what you posted even have the name of the representative that sent the e-mail? If you post a source that can't be verified, how is that meant to prove anything?

 

Btw, I just received an e-mail from GW saying that rhinos can fire 3 weapons from their top hatch. Rgs GW Dev team.

 

It doesn't matter. You have two rules that modify the effective BS. Unless you can bring forth a quotation that specifies the order or says that the one rule makes the other nil and void, RAW is RAW. It makes no sense from a fluff perspective, true, but that doesn't matter in the slightest when it comes to RAW.

 

In competitive gaming nobody gives a damn about whether something makes sense, all that matters are the letter of the rules, the mechanics, not the presumed spirit of the game.

 

So in that spirit:

"I am going to finish as saying this: Page 9 para 6 is there for freak occurrences and not something that occurs every turn (or more than once a turn if you use Signum too). I think that the authors overlooked this fact. "

 

It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter if something makes sense or no. All that matters is what the book reads.

 

"Furthermore I believe Snap Fire is not a modifier, but a core rule that should only be circumvented specifically... as with the Foreboding Psychic Power (Divination)."

 

Same here. What you believe or don't believe is irrelevant. If you can find a passage that says that it's not a modifier but a core rule - fine. Otherwise the rule does modify the effective BS and therefore will be understood as a modifier by gamers.

 

"A Snap Fire is supposed to be a quick shot anyway that takes half a second. No amount of data from the signum or experience from Telion in your ear can make a difference in the space of half a second."

 

 

See? That's the problem. In competitive gaming nobody cares whhether something is possible or not. All that matters what the book reads.

 

I'd like to finish by adding that if there is some passage in the book that supports your view, I am fine with that too. Personally I think this RAW is cheesy and should be faq'd (though I am Telion fan, baby). But if that's what RAW is, it's the way it's gonna be played for now.

 

Alex

[Cornelias]

I'll have a bash at swinging this back in the right direction

 

 

GC08, as mentioned before i have been planning a themed Scythes of the Emperor for a white now and had planned an alpha strike Shrike army with pods supporting scouts, ofc due to the rules that is no longer an option. I've set myself a tough challenge building the army so that no units get deployed on the board before infiltration and i would really like to make that happen.

 

I have been mulling over swapping shrike out for sicarius and infiltrating a tac squad in to support a ccw scout squad, the tac squad could be used to whittle down enemies ready for a charge by the ccw scouts, do you think that might be a viable tactic?

[Kingkaneda]

I'll have a bash at swinging this back in the right direction

 

 

GC08, as mentioned before i have been planning a themed Scythes of the Emperor for a white now and had planned an alpha strike Shrike army with pods supporting scouts, ofc due to the rules that is no longer an option. I've set myself a tough challenge building the army so that no units get deployed on the board before infiltration and i would really like to make that happen.

 

I have been mulling over swapping shrike out for sicarius and infiltrating a tac squad in to support a ccw scout squad, the tac squad could be used to whittle down enemies ready for a charge by the ccw scouts, do you think that might be a viable tactic?

 

Can work, just remember that the scouts need to survive a round of shooting before they can charge. The first turn they wont even be able to fire their pistols. To make sure they survive I would

A give them camo cloaks and infiltrate into cover

B Infiltrate several groups of scouts to make sure some survive

C Give them shotguns, so they can at least shoot your first turn

 

I myself still enjoy using the landspeeder storm with a squad of scouts. Infiltrate it behind a building, let it outflank or deploy it defensively against droppers. So many options depending on your opponent. 5 scouts with shotguns and a combimelta are a real threat to vehicles and smal shooty squads.

[reckoning]

Id like to throw a question at all of you scout experts. Im thinking about taking CF as allies, and want to roll 1 of 2 ways. Kantor with atleast two scout squads. Or a different hq with 2 scout squads. Kantor because Id like to throw in some sternguard. I definitely plan on having snipers w/ Telion attached but was wondering what the other squad should be. Any suggestions?

[greatcrusade08]

Id like to throw a question at all of you scout experts. Im thinking about taking CF as allies, and want to roll 1 of 2 ways. Kantor with atleast two scout squads. Or a different hq with 2 scout squads. Kantor because Id like to throw in some sternguard. I definitely plan on having snipers w/ Telion attached but was wondering what the other squad should be. Any suggestions?

 

under the new edition you cant go wrong with a 10 man bolter squad, 150 points with a HB is pretty good value.. if they are close to Kantor they get the +1A (dont they?) which makes them just like ccw scouts when they get charged.

you could give them cloaks but it takes them to 180 points, at which point they are as expensive as a tactical squad.

 

i think ccw scouts need alot more effort to play now, as described above youd need to soften up thier targets before they can even charge.. i can kind of understand no charges when ifiltrate and scout, but removing it from outflank well has really limited thier options

[Captain Idaho]

I think Scouts are a lot like Orks now when it comes to close combat; either roll in an expensive transport or light open topped vehicle, or have 2 units of shooters just behind the close combat element and hope the opponent fails his target priority choices. After all, if an opponent blasts to pieces your 20 Scouts moving into position for a charge, but there are 20 Scouts behind them who have been peppering them with fire this whole time and taking a toll on the opponent, that's still a strong position to be in! This is achievable now thanks to the wonderful changes to Rapid Fire weapons.

 

Of course, that's like 600pts on that combo, but then you do have 40 models out of it! And you could drop a close combat squad too to save points?

 

Theory of course, 'coz I'm rubbish with Scouts. Just talking from an opponent's perspective.

[Stormshadow]

Here’s a thought. How about a scout sergeant with dual plasma pistols for some real drive bye, gangster stile

would be great for a LSS, trouble is the cost and the chances of a death by overheating

 

The cost of a scout sergeant with dual plasma pistols: 53p

 

The ability to slowly glide up to your opponent with a LSS and a Sargent leaning out of the passenger seat set with dual plasma pistols in a gangster tilt, and screaming “Eat plasma, Bitches!!!”: Priceless ;)

 

Overheat? So worth it! :)

[greatcrusade08]

I think Scouts are a lot like Orks now when it comes to close combat; either roll in an expensive transport or light open topped vehicle, or have 2 units of shooters just behind the close combat element and hope the opponent fails his target priority choices. After all, if an opponent blasts to pieces your 20 Scouts moving into position for a charge, but there are 20 Scouts behind them who have been peppering them with fire this whole time and taking a toll on the opponent, that's still a strong position to be in! This is achievable now thanks to the wonderful changes to Rapid Fire weapons.

 

Of course, that's like 600pts on that combo, but then you do have 40 models out of it! And you could drop a close combat squad too to save points?

 

Theory of course, 'coz I'm rubbish with Scouts. Just talking from an opponent's perspective.

 

scouts can do quantity really well, and as stalin once said quantity is a quality of its own :P

ive written a mock up list that has a horde feel to it, its easy to get the 6 x 10 for less than 1000 points even when taking telion and giving heavy weapons to each squad with cloaks on a couple.

as ive said now, bolter scouts are worth thier place, snipers are exceptional, trouble is ccws got the nerfbat.

that isnt to say your not right, ccw scouts can still be a bully unit taking on enemy squads that have been shot to death.. i fancy them more as an old wood elf wardancer-esque usage now, jumping between units of shooty troops killing the remains of anything thats gotten too close.

 

time will tell i guess

 

@stormshadow, dual plasma shots every turn is alot beter than a single combi shot, it depends on keeping the storm alive for a turn or two i guess.

ill give it a go and let you know how it fares,, if you get any run-outs post up the results.

 

ta muchly

[Rage]

Is it worth attaching Telion to a bolter scouts unit with Hvy Bolter?

 

When they're static he can do his usual sniping duties and when they move can he drop BS5 onto the heavy bolter?

[greatcrusade08]

Is it worth attaching Telion to a bolter scouts unit with Hvy Bolter?

 

When they're static he can do his usual sniping duties and when they move can he drop BS5 onto the heavy bolter?

 

its BS6 and its doable, personally i prefer to combine telions VoE with a ML, especially when snap firing is concerned as you cant fire the hellfire shell

[Rage]

I can understand the ML but was just considering that if you're on the move with bolters then a HB would be a more appropriate back up for anti-infantry. I'm only considering this in a fall blown 10 man unit, in a 5 man unit then an ML would be more appropriate.

 

It was only a thought, something different from the standard Telion + Snipers unit.

[Tristan Hoag]

Hey, greatcrusade!

 

I was thrilled to see you are still writing these great scout army articles!

 

As far as CCW scouts go, I think that while the alpha strike variant is obsolete, they are still going to be effective units. I am a lot less worried about overwatch shooting, it is more of a minor inconvenience. Since the overwatching unit only hits on sixes, you are going to see very little impact. Even a ten man squad of space marines rapid firing bolters should only generate roughly 4 hits, translating into two wounds, one of which should be saved. I would be careful assaulting really large units, like massive numbers of Ork shootas or Termigaunts, as their numbers can increase the numbers of hits. (Not to mention units with psychic powers letting them overwatch at normal BS...)

 

Using stacked charges can help you handle these units, too. Before you charge a large unit, or one where you are concerned about it's overwatch abilities, drop a Landspeeder Storm nearby and disembark your five man squad. Declare their charge first, and your opponent has to decide whether to overwatch them (which they can do only once per turn) or let them assault. Once the enemy are engaged or have burned up their overwatch, the larger CCW squads can declare their charges without fear of further shooting.

 

Just some thoughts - I have only played one game of 6th edition so far, so I may be way off base, too...

 

TristanHoag

[ShinyRhino]

How do folks feel shotgun scouts were treated with the changeover to 6th?

On one hand, they can Infiltrate and put out a nice amount of Overwatch fire if assaulted. Should you want them to move forward, you can still fire those two shots per man and charge afterwards. On the other, bolter scouts fire Overwatch equally well and only lack the ability to charge after moving forward and firing bolters. Pistol/blade scouts are the middle ground, shooting half as well in any situation, but gaining additional attacks when charging.

 

I guess the only big change for infiltrating scouts that aren't designed for aplha strikes is the addition of Overwatch. But, how heavily will Overwatch shooting (both outgoing, and incoming) affect your weaponry choices for your scouts?

I'm considering the use of a 10-man squad, half pistol/blade and half shotguns. The shotgunners can line up in the front and take the Overwatch fire, preserving the pistol/blade scouts for melee attacks.

 

How are folks considering altering their scout sergeant armaments for Challenges now? The powerfist/combi loadout is now a quick way to get murdered in a challenge. Are you planning to swap to power swords? Maybe going full-on shooting loadout and simply denying any challenges?

[greatcrusade08]

How do folks feel shotgun scouts were treated with the changeover to 6th?

On one hand, they can Infiltrate and put out a nice amount of Overwatch fire if assaulted. Should you want them to move forward, you can still fire those two shots per man and charge afterwards. On the other, bolter scouts fire Overwatch equally well and only lack the ability to charge after moving forward and firing bolters. Pistol/blade scouts are the middle ground, shooting half as well in any situation, but gaining additional attacks when charging.

the arguments for shotguns or bolters, is pretty much the same, two shots per but the shotugn gives you the assault which is nice

 

I guess the only big change for infiltrating scouts that aren't designed for aplha strikes is the addition of Overwatch. But, how heavily will Overwatch shooting (both outgoing, and incoming) affect your weaponry choices for your scouts?

I'm considering the use of a 10-man squad, half pistol/blade and half shotguns. The shotgunners can line up in the front and take the Overwatch fire, preserving the pistol/blade scouts for melee attacks.

 

i always take bolters for units not built for combat, the longer range and better AP give you a little more flexibility

 

How are folks considering altering their scout sergeant armaments for Challenges now? The powerfist/combi loadout is now a quick way to get murdered in a challenge. Are you planning to swap to power swords? Maybe going full-on shooting loadout and simply denying any challenges?

this is awkward for scouts as the combi reprisents the one saving grace for basic scouts, who have no access to special weapons.

i like just having the combi tbh, maybe on a large squad of ccw/shotgunners it might be worth considering challenges, but i wouldnt let it affect how i build storm squads for example (who are now more use in shooting, which irects the builds a little more favourably to just combi anyway)

 

As far as CCW scouts go, I think that while the alpha strike variant is obsolete, they are still going to be effective units. I am a lot less worried about overwatch shooting, it is more of a minor inconvenience

overwatch itself isnt a huge deal, although it depends on the unit your attacking, lootas, lots of flamers etc and you could start losing lots of bods.

what bothers me is the lack of charge on outflank, infiltrate, scout etc.. as it means taking a full salvo (usually at close range) before they can charge.

that kind of thing can be devestating for scouts.

 

thats not to say ccw scouts dont have a roll to play, if you can get them in a transport or use them for late game outflanking or find a way to keep them safe for that round of shooting then they are still viable.

they have become a unit that arent as easy to use, which i think will cause alot of frustration

[Kingkaneda]

I like using Shotgun scouts in a landspeeder storm. Basically using them as CCW scouts. In the end you get the same amount of attacks, only more before the combat and less during combat.

5 scouts are almost never going to win CC anyway, and with lysander making my scouts stubborn losing is what i expect of them. I just hope 1 survives so that they hold the enemy for a turn. Shooting extra shots before the charge can make sure you get less attacks in the combat, wich ups the chances of 1 marine surviving.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

i think ccw scouts need alot more effort to play now, as described above youd need to soften up thier targets before they can even charge.. i can kind of understand no charges when ifiltrate and scout, but removing it from outflank well has really limited thier options

 

I am going to play a couple of games with 50/50 mix of scouts (shotguns & CCW) and see how well i can get them to work with 6th edition. I think they can work well as a distraction against long range support. 75 pts for a distraction is not a bad deal.

 

@kingkaneda

I think that is a valid point. they can shoot twice against the same target. (once in their phase and overwatch)

[Deiros]

I had a friendly game today and fielded a bunch of scouts, the typical 5 man sniper with telion and a five man squad with bolter and H. bolter. the rest were 2 units of 10 scouts half shotgun and half ccw.

 

Telion camped my home objective as it normally does but I used my bolter and 1 ccw scout unit to hold the objective in the middle.

 

My tactic with the ccw was helping the bolter scout holding an objective in the middle and in the second game we played I used them to deny a small chunk of the map as the firepower was still something to consider and charging 10 scouts might not be much but counter charged by 10 more is not something nice.

 

The trick was giving him something more threatening (which it seems doesn't take much).

 

I still need to buy a storm and I use a proxy but bolter scouts in a storm are pretty decent harassment, since you can hide melta bombs and combi melta in the sgt. for a quick drop and shoot. It's not the alpha strike but it's an alpha shooting that can destroy a vehicle.

[Kingkaneda]

Well I DO miss the alpha strike for vehicle killing. Melta bombs on a scout sergeant in a storm or on a scout bike were priceless. I still give them the meltabombs to increase their threat and to be able to punish players who dont judge them dangerous enough. The new vehicle hitting rules make the meltabombs a lot better even without alpha strike possibilities.

[BassWave]

Well lately I've been using 10 strong shotgun scouts, with bp and power sword on the sarge. Thanks to infiltrate, and the fact that we play in city terrain, I've been able to get in close to lone marine squads and blast them first turn. Usually it leaves the enemy squad 3o weak to retaliate so I clean em up on the second turn. Sarge is meant to challenge and add anti mech power to the squad.

[Lucien Eilam]

How does it leave them too weak to retaliate? Against Marines, with shotguns, you'd be lucky if you killed more than one guy.