Khârn question

[RastlinD]

Played a game with the new codex tonight. Have a question about Kharns betrayer special rule. If he is fighting space marines and charges does veterans of the long war allow a reroll of any ones that Kharns rolls in the first round of combat. Thus giving him a second chance to not hit his own side. Or does his betrayer rule override the reroll. Thanks!

[Morollan]

VotLW grants Hatred doesn't it? If so, Khârn doesn't get any benefit from it as it allows you to reroll misses but Khârn doesn't miss - he hits another target.

[greatcrusade08]

VotLW grants Hatred doesn't it? If so, Khârn doesn't get any benefit from it as it allows you to reroll misses but Khârn doesn't miss - he hits another target.

 

its a hotly debated issue.. the fact that his 1 rolls are redirected doesnt change the fact they have missed thier intended target.

its a grey area and something that needs a FAQ in my opinion

[Morollan]

I don't have the new chaos codex so I've not seen the precise wording of Khârn's rule. Difficult to comment.

[Legatus]

The 'betrayer' rule in the 4th Edition Codex was quite explicit, describing that if Khârn does not have any friendly models within range, then his rolls of 1 simply miss. The 6th Edition Codex has changed the phrasing of the rule slightly, now stating that if there are no friendly models within range, his rolls of 1 are "discarded". So, the 6th Edition Codex is more ambiguous about it (it still states that rolls of 1 will "hit" friendly models, though), but in the 4th Edition Codex his 1s were explicitely only considered to miss if there were no friendly models to hit.

[Seahawk]

Either 1's are "hits" or 1's are "discarded," but they are never "misses" according to the new rules. The double Hatred he has is utterly worthless unless it gets addressed in a future FAQ.

[Legatus]

If there are no friendly models around, then Khârn hits on a 2+. In that case, all of his 1s are misses and can be re-rolled in his first turn of a combat.

[Seahawk]

That was last edition, as you just said. In this edition, the dice are not misses, they are simply discarded.

[Legatus]

I would say that if the rules state that he needs to roll a 2+ to hit, then it is understood that the 1s are misses. I don't think it has to be declared that the rolls that do not score a hit are considered misses.

[cielaq]

The thing is, rules for Khârn are written so any roll of 2+ is a hit, while any roll of 1, instead of missing, either hit a friendly model or is discarded.

It works like this (by strict RAW):

1. Roll a die

2a. You've rolled 2+ => it's a hit

2b. You've rolled 1=> do you have friends nearby?

if yes => hit them

if no => discard this die

There are no misses for him (until GW comes and FAQ it, so at point 2b. you'll be allowed the re-roll).

[Legatus]

Seriously: The rules do not have to point out that "not a hit" is considered a "miss". Check the rulebook rules for rolling to hit in the shooting or the close combat phase. Those rules similarly only explian that the model needs a certain result to score a hit. The rules do not point out that all the rolls that do not score a hit are considered "misses".

[cielaq]

True, but hitting/missing is basic, rulebook rule, while this is codex rule (and codex>rulebook...). And this codex rule clearly states what happens to a roll of 1, no matter what general rule for non-hitting rolls is.

[Spear of Achilles]

The Codex overules the basic book. However, a 1 is STILL a miss if there is no friendly unit nearby. You rolled the dice trying to hit someone, and failed. You can't say Khârn didn't attack with the 'discarded' roll. What's the point of even listing Long War if it does nothing to or for the model? In any case, roll a dice to decide it...

[Venemox]

To add even more fuel to the inferno:

 

Gorechild always hits on a 2+, even if hitting would be automatic. Since an unmodified roll of 1 results in an automatic hit on a friendly model, Gorechild resolves that hit as a required miss.

 

EDIT: Unless, of course, Khârn decides to pistol whip someone with his Plasma Pistol. Then Gorechild gets ignored, and unmodified 1's become automatic hits on friendly models.

[Legatus]

To add even more fuel to the inferno:

 

Gorechild always hits on a 2+, even if hitting would be automatic. Since an unmodified roll of 1 results in an automatic hit on a friendly model, Gorechild resolves that hit as a required miss.

Well, these are two different kinds of "automatic". Though it is an unfortunate use of the term.

 

Usually, an "automatic hit" means that you don't roll any dice. Models will automatically hit a stationary vehicle in combat, for example. You don't roll any dice, all of the attacks of the models simply hit. In this situation, Khârn would still have to roll for it, because he has to roll to hit on 2+ with Gorechild, even if the attacks would otherwise hit automatically.*

 

Since Khârn is rolling dice, that is not the kind of "automatic hit" he is scoring. What that phrase means for his rolls of 1 is that you don't have to roll again for his 1s to see if they actually hit someone, or which side they hit. I.e. saying that his rolls of 1 "automatically hit his one side" is like saying all successful attack rolls "automatically hit the enemy unit". There simply is no further randomization or determination process at that point, and the attack simply go on that side.

 

 

 

 

*(And why would GW have Khârn roll against stationary vehicles, making him less accurate here than any other model in the game? Precisely so that even in that event, he would still be in danger of hitting his own side on rolls of 1. That GW implemented such a ruling where it would otherwise be impossible to miss at all does suggest that they wouldn't simply intend for him to be allowed to re-roll and reduce his 1s in other instances.)

[Venemox]

Thank you, Legatus. That is exactly what I'm trying to highlight. The rules for Khârn, and their interaction with other rules (both general, advanced, and Khârn specific), are in a horrible state of affairs.

 

The unfortunate use of the words 'miss', 'discarded', 'unmodified', and 'automatic' leave room for an ample variety of interpretations that all look like they could be what the author was intending. Unfortunately, we are discussing the RAW, and the writing leaves much to be desired.

 

As for how I would play it: Always to my own disadvantage (until GW clarifies it). My Khârn doesn't get to re-roll his ones. My opponent's does. Knowing my gaming group, this could lead to a roll-off for who was going to screw themselves by taking the disadvantage (an akward sittuation, at best).

[Legatus]

As for how I would play it: Always to my own disadvantage (until GW clarifies it).

That would be the courteous thing to do. And I think that makes the game more enjoyable for everyone involved.