shaun03 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Point on kills per turn seams a bit high. I been running a tally list with max out shooting for a while on avg u reach 20 by nd of turn 2, so reap the benefits turn 3. Most meq list dont even have 60 models. Horde list 20 by end if turn 1 is easy. Also what point level u playing at? You points in drones and plague hulks makes perfect sense, there written in IA books as so. Zombies were written as so, because of the tally. Think about how broken they would be if they could reap the Benfits of the tally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Firstly, you can kill your own cultists/zombies on turn 1 by attacking your own quadgun/comms relay. Then Destroyer Hive, etc... Secondly, that shouldn't be necessary. With marked Oblits, Havocs, Blight Drones, and plasma toting Plagues you should be able to get 20 on turn one reasonably often. I get about 60/30/10 turn 1/2/other. Plague Hulk also work, and bikers and winged DP with Black Mace all reinforce your turn 2 shot. Yes you can attack your own Quadgun and unleash the Destroyer Hive. However, a Comms Relay is not attackable and non-destructable by any means. It's terrain. The Quadgun alone has specific provisions allowing it to be attacked. Your second point is completely valid as well of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crl1981 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 you can use nurgles rot. i particularly enjoy this as it doesn't effect nurgle's followers but according to the logic of FOOLS zombies are not followers of nurgle ^_^ plague wind will do too but its not as pleasing the biggest failing of the epi list is that he has to be on the table for the kills to be added to the tally and he has to deploy via daemonic assault so there is a 1/3 chance he will not be coming in 1st turn. also the instinct is to castle him somewhere nice and safe on your edge of the board but then there are the pretty majpr problems of mishaps when trying o get into a small space like that. Uhm...... 1. who says you need Typhus? 2or more units 20 cutists MoN. 2. Epidemiues attached to 1 unit of nurglings or plague bearers thats it! He has 100% chance of arriving tunr 1! That is assuming that he can be attached to either of those squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 you can use nurgles rot. i particularly enjoy this as it doesn't effect nurgle's followers but according to the logic of FOOLS zombies are not followers of nurgle ;) plague wind will do too but its not as pleasing the biggest failing of the epi list is that he has to be on the table for the kills to be added to the tally and he has to deploy via daemonic assault so there is a 1/3 chance he will not be coming in 1st turn. also the instinct is to castle him somewhere nice and safe on your edge of the board but then there are the pretty majpr problems of mishaps when trying o get into a small space like that. Uhm...... 1. who says you need Typhus? 2or more units 20 cutists MoN. 2. Epidemiues attached to 1 unit of nurglings or plague bearers thats it! He has 100% chance of arriving tunr 1! That is assuming that he can be attached to either of those squads. You still have to roll to see if the arrives turn 1, sorry. There's nothing that says if you only have a single unit that they don't arrive by daemonic assault, and it states pretty clearly "no model in this army is ever placed on the battlefield during deployment". So on a 1-2 roll your daemon detachment would stay in reserve. Not 100% on arriving turn 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Sure they come in. You have only one wave to roll for, which means it always comes in. You don't have a wave of 1 and a wave of 0; the wave of 0 doesn't exist, and you never roll for something that doesn't exist. Unless, of course, you advocate for me rolling a 2+ to win the game...;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Sure they come in. You have only one wave to roll for, which means it always comes in. You don't have a wave of 1 and a wave of 0; the wave of 0 doesn't exist, and you never roll for something that doesn't exist. Unless, of course, you advocate for me rolling a 2+ to win the game...:) Actually you can have an empty subset. The rule tell you to divide your army in two groups as evenly as possible. That means one group with deamons and one without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 This has been discussed already but I believe the verdict was that if it's just one unit they arrive automatically. OT- It really shouldn't be hard at all to get the tally up there with oblits, bikers and then a winged DP turn 2 should be the latest you're getting it. Unless it's a deathstar type army then you might not get it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Actually you can have an empty subset. The rule tell you to divide your army in two groups as evenly as possible. The 'as possible' operational phrase does not mean that you are forced to divide your force into two groups when one of those two groups does not actually exist. That makes no sense. 1 divided by 2 does not equal 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Indeed, you'll roll and get either the wave you want or the wave you don't, but since there's still only one wave, all results turn up as a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I still don't see any real discussion to back up the claim, but do what you want. I read it as having 1 wave of 1 unit, and 1 wave of an "empty subset", so on a roll of 1-2 the gods laugh at you, and on a roll of 3-6 you get Epi 1st turn. Since the book claims you must divide your army as evenly as possible into two groups and you must roll for it, the two subsets would be 1 and 0 (yes zero is a number). The second wave would consist of zero units, since again you have to divide it into two waves as evenly as possible... I'm sure it'll be cleared up next codex release, since this was before the advent of allies. The book does not include an exception to the rule if there is only a single unit entering play, so making an exception up is essentially what you're doing, since it doesn't make sense as you claim. You want to make a house rule for the allies thing, go ahead, that's your prerogative. Gameplay-wise, it still makes sense to play it in waves 1 and zero, since you will still have units on the table on turn 1 the same as you would playing daemons codex without allies. IMO it's twisting the rules around so you are assured to have Epi in on turn 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Not at all. The book doesn't say what happens when there's a wave of zero because at the time of writing it didn't exist unless you were playing very small games. You can't rollfor something that doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus Nurgling Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Even for very small games, you'd still have to have 2 troops choices, so I'd deign to say that it didn't exist at all, but that doesn't mean that you just make something up that works out to your advantage. You have to use the existing rule set, which says there is a chance of getting something you don't want in the first round. As I said, it's not like you don't have troops on the table, so the interpretation accounts for that. Your interpretation, also as I said, is (and I'm trying to find a way to word this without being insulting, so don't take it negatively) a way to loophole the rules to your advantage instead of reading them in an (imo) balanced fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Your interpretation, also as I said, is (and I'm trying to find a way to word this without being insulting, so don't take it negatively) a way to loophole the rules to your advantage instead of reading them in an (imo) balanced fashion. But that works both ways- it seems to me that you are trying to gimp yourself with a mandate to split a tiny force into two groups, one of which is not extant. At that tourney back in November we all played with the 'auto arrival' and no one batted an eye or considered it bad form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Rulings from the swedish tournament scene (Swefaq) dictate that you roll for demoic assault even if you only have one unit. That might not mean much to you but I belive that the ruling came from the fact that the rule demonic assault is a deliberate gimp to the demonic codex because its very powerful. The fact that even we are advocating this ruling, even if we are gimping ourself should tell you something.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antarius Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Even for very small games, you'd still have to have 2 troops choices, so I'd deign to say that it didn't exist at all, but that doesn't mean that you just make something up that works out to your advantage. You have to use the existing rule set, which says there is a chance of getting something you don't want in the first round. As I said, it's not like you don't have troops on the table, so the interpretation accounts for that. Your interpretation, also as I said, is (and I'm trying to find a way to word this without being insulting, so don't take it negatively) a way to loophole the rules to your advantage instead of reading them in an (imo) balanced fashion. Otoh, claiming the revers could also be seen as gaming the system. Suppose I have Daemon allies that I want to deepstrike in as late as possible to grab an objective? I can prefer the "empty group" and effectively work around the Daemonic Assault rule to my own benefit. In my group I think people would probably view that as a bit cheesy. As to which of you is right, I'm really not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelanen Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The tourney scene here says your roll with a null deployment subset too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Time to close the thread. The tally doesn't matter and doesn't work for C:CSM units anymore anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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