Julgolax Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Reading over some of the blurbs out there for one of my favorite characters and scenarios, Constantius the Liberator and the Constantius Iconoclasm, I am confused as to how this individual could amass so much fame/infamy and might without picking a god of chaos, especially since this time around, you don't seem to get ANY benefits unless you pick one. So what I'm wondering is unless there's evidence to the contrary here, which god would support a rising tyrant or pirate like Constantius OR if no specific god would be chosen by or choose to aid him than how would he be able to become strong? In the rules, how would you build a chaos lord that would be comparable to a "cult" lord who has chosen one patron? I love Khorne and all, but I'm finding that I love independent chaos lords who become tyrants and pirates (like Huron Blackheart, Tyrant of Badab). I'm revisiting the idea I had a long while back to do my own Iconoclasm with a younger chapter, where the chapter had fallen to chaos but has converted the system they rule into undivided legions of cultists to fight for the chaos marines when they are called. (Basically setting up a renegade allied force of Traitor Guard (IG codex) and Chaos Space Marines) I was really impressed with the stuff that came out of the Siege of Vrakks ordeal on Forgeworld, and the style of the traitor guard in particular caught my eye almost immediately. This image in particular: Traitor Guard Malcador Defender So can someone tell me how things are here? Do the gods favor tyrants and pirates, and which one in particular? If not, how then would I represent undivided in this current edition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 All of them and none of them. The thing is, you can still build a no Marks army. Is it harder? Yes. But Smurfalypse seems to be doing good. The other thing about Constantinus is that while Chaos supported him, he wasn't really one of the rabble so to speak. He was a Cult of Personality that was filled with Chaos worshippers and much like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion, he fed on that power and used it as he saw fit. In this case, that was to become a tyrant. All of the Gods favor tyrants and pirates. And as some of us have to agree on is that Marks are not necessarily indicative of someone worshipping the gods so much as the gods noticing them and approving of their deeds. And there are two ways to do an Undivided force. You can run no Marks. Like I said, it's harder but it's not impossible. Or, you can mix and match marks. For example, People still like Plague Marines. Have say either a Lord or a Sorcerer either with no Mark or the Mark of Nurgle, and then have normal CSM squads with either Dual Meltas or Flamers, CCW(either go ubergrit or drop the bolter) and then give them either MoS or MoK and use them for close combat. Maybe have a Havoc squad or two and leave them unMarked. Maybe throw in some Cultists or Traitor Guard allies somewhere. The other thing to remember about Constantinus is that he is solely a fluff character. And the fluff has less restrictions than the Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RolandTHTG Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Yea, the marks can be anything from worshipers being given boons by the gods to rewards given to the unsuspecting. I'd put pirates and renegades as less likely to have cult troops, baring 1 or 2 squads attracted by plunder, but anywhere between just turned and word-bearers full throated worship. for painting that type of Icon style you liked, Dave Taylor, a former GW painter, has a really good tutorial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Hey guys if you like Constantius, then you should totally check out Trecheries of Space Marines. There is short story about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 From the Book of Tzeentch, Liber Chaotica "Tzeentch loves schemes. Anyone who plots and plans their rise to personal success and power through devious or convoluted means will invariably attract Tzeentch's gaze - although this in itself does not mean that these people are necessarily bound to Him or doomed to be His servants. However, if the mortal in question impresses enough with the complexity and breadth of his schemes, and if that mortal is not already dedicated specifically to the service of another deity, Tzeentch may bestow a blessing upon him to show His favor. ... Rather than bestow His blessings upon mortals and asking nothing in return, Tzeentch endeavors to further complicate the plans of any scheming mortal that has attracted His gaze, thereby increasing the stakes for the mortal and perhaps pushing him closer to the brink of desperation and new complexities unfold. Tzeentch hopes to push the unfortunate mortal into a position where nothing short of a miracle could save him from the dilemma he is in - and then, of course, Tzeentch will be waiting with open arms and empty promises. ... But how many honest academics have turned to Tzeentch in desperation as they search vainly for an answer to some seemingly unsolvable problem? How many scholars, obsessed with learning, have been lured into Tzeentch's embrace with the promises of attaining greater wisdom or absolute truth? Far to many, I fear. Yet Tzeentch, at His core, is the embodiment of the desire for change, and any being who wishes to alter their own (or anyone else's) state are likely targets for the predations of this unkind deity. Indeed, judging by the various reports and records that the witch hunters have garnered to aid my researches, and also according to many a folk take I have unearthed on the subject, the people most vulnerable to the lure of the Great Mutator seem to be those who possess a revolutionary spirit. Any visionary - man or woman - who dreams or actively tries to change the world, whether they be nobles or statesmen seeking to improve the lot of their nation, or usurpers plotting to overthrow corrupt officials and bring justice to the community they live within, all run the risk of attracting Tzeentch's gaze." TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julgolax Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I really have to thank you guys for the insight so far. So Constantius in particular came to power because of circumstance and charisma, the chaos gods favored him and so he fell to the whimsy of the dark gods. What I don't get is why he didn't become one of the chaos lords we all see and know from the codex, a mighty swollen giant of power and corruption, it sounds like his marines didn't really feel the taint at all, more like an army of mercenary space marines. Also, seeing as how this has REALLY piqued my interest for my own force of chaos space marines, what would an aspiring tyrant/pirate have to consider when dabbling in the fell powers of the warp? I mean, how does one go from looking like a shining champion of the emperor to ... Huron? Where do space marines learn about these things on some desolate planet ruined by war and strife with giant chunks of city laying all over the place? I mean here-say can only get you so far, and holding a tattered piece of cloth aloft bearing the 8-pointed star can only draw so much attention from the immortal deities of the warp. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Well the thing to remember about Constantinus was that he stayed somewhere the Imperium could easily assault and painted a huge bull's eye right on his backside. And the Imperium had few qualms hunting him down. On the mercenary aspect, yes and no. The original members of his squad probably didn't feel the touch of Chaos as the Marines in the warbands that he assimilated into his forces later on. How does one become a Chaos Lord? Any number of ways. In the short story Renegades in the Heroes of the Space Marines anthology as well as its sequel The Rewards of Tolerance in Victories of the Space Marines anthology show how a small group of Avenging Sons kill some of their own brethren and hand over an Imperial world to Cultists just so they can escape a coming warp storm and go on to aid some eldar raiders to get some necessary supplies before crippling the xenos and using them as bait to escape an Imperial retribution fleet so they can escape to the Eye. While they haven't fully fallen to Chaos, they are certainly on their way as their Librarian has already become a partial host to a minor warp entity, combined with the fact that they willingly became Renegades and chose to willingly go to the one place that, in their words, "all renegades go"; the Eye of Terror. It doesn't take much to fall to Chaos. In the case of Luther, it was his twin desires of protecting Caliban and proving he could do it without the Lion. In the case of Constantius, it was his desire to fulfill his oath of protecting a single planet from the threat of xenos. For the Relictors, it was their belief to fight fire with fire that saw their fall. In the case of the Sons of Malice, the Imperium ousted them from their homeworld so they turned to Malice in order to both survive and to one day attain enough power to reclaim their lost homeworld, although it's probably ashes from an Exterminatus by now. Very rarely do we see someone just "switch sides". It is a gradual process. Although for some, the process is much faster than it is for others and some it is slower. A company Champion might be fighting to defend an Imperial world from the invasion of Chaos when a warp storm erupts and swallows the planet whole. He awakes to find himself on a strange new world with no sun and the sky is a constant riot of colors. He begins to venture across the world, searching for a way to leave. Along his journey, he meets and defeats several champions of Chaos, claiming their weapons and armor, both to replace his damaged ones and as spoils of war. Eventually, he becomes a full-fledged Champion of Chaos and also finds a spaceport. There he finds that he is in the Eye of Terror and so begins his journey to build an army to get payback on the Chapter that his now-warped mind believe had abandoned him to his fate. His mindset went from escaping, to seeking a misplaced revenge. Not all followers of Chaos go through this change, but it is similar. Some are raised in it, some seek it for power, some worship it and some simply use it as what they see as a weapon of convenience, a drug they assume that they can always just stop using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julgolax Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I just wanted to post this piece of artwork that went along with the blurb in the 5th Edition Codex. Very interesting and inspiring piece of artwork IMO. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/0/0b/Constantinus.jpg/800px-Constantinus.jpg It's interesting how you can clearly see the stylized icon of chaos and the traitorous peoples but Constantius and his squad appear to not even bear the mark of chaos anywhere, let alone seem much more than marines who have removed their chest aquilas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julgolax Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 Sorry, B&C double posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Like as been said above, Constantius is an aspiring champion and was not given enough time to be wholly physically corrupted. Corruption appears to usually happen to astartes in the face of deperate circumstance, such as Huron storming the SW ship or Constantius facing a never ending fight to rid an ungratful and wretched aristocracy from the Tyranis threat. Desperation and hubris. Betrayal, hatred, pride and greed these are the first steps on the Dark Path and why Chaplains have a busy time...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Betrayal, hatred, pride and greed these are the first steps on the Dark Path and why Chaplains have a busy time...... Unless they're Word Bearers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Betrayal, hatred, pride and greed these are the first steps on the Dark Path and why Chaplains have a busy time...... Unless they're Word Bearers..... True, the Apostles preach openly what the Emperors Dogs fear in secret - mans true nature as a minion of the Fell Powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Well, if nothing else, at least Constantius has a pair of cool ammo belts! True gunslinger style! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Ha! All he needs is a ceramite sombrero and he can be a bandito! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julgolax Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 So a Captain, Veteran Sergeant, or Chapter Master has converted/fallen/embraced evil and now faces a thousand new challenges, including how to handle his loyalist brothers because there are surely some left. What would this be like? I mean the epic tragedy of the Horus Heresy was on such a scale that individual experiences meant nothing to the full breadth of the shock and awe, but here the might of a single chapter, company, or squad is called into the situation, what comes of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 It can go a number of ways. It is very rare that an entire Chapter falls, usually it's leftover. On a squad level, it is easier for the whole, or at least the overwhelming majority, to fall because all of them usually share rather tight bonds of brotherhood and have shared the same experiences. In the case of Constantinus, it became those who were utterly devoted to Constantinus versus those who realized his descent into madness. In the case of the Avenging Sons Renegades I mentioned earlier, it was a matter of the older members who just survived a rather brutal campaign and only survived because of their Captain versus the newer members who were on their first tour with the Company and a Chaplain who also did not serve in that campaign who was more than willing to drive the Company to death as penance for its imagined failure. On the Chapter level, it does and doesn't get more complicated. In Chapters like the Sons of Malice, the overwhelmingly majority is usually what decides the path so if there is any resistance, it is quickly snuffed out. In Chapters like the Astral Claws, most, if not all, of their members will have been descending into Chaos for quite a while, so when it comes time to cross that line, they will do so thinking they already have. In most normal Chapters, there will usually be some sort of Civil War that pits the Loyalists versus the Traitors and it will be the surviving faction that decides the future of the Chapter. For the most part, we will see in miniature scale what happened in the Heresy. It will truly be "Brother against Brother." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The battle between torgaddon and Little Horus in galaxy of flames is probably the best example of to individual marines battling after a fresh conversion, the loyalist a always shown to be the angrier of the two they are far more insulted by there comrades betrayal, while the traitor at the very least feigns regret for having to fight there former brother. That scene has always been one of my favourite bits of fluff I always imagine that torgaddon went to that battle knowing he couldn't kill aximand. An I imagine that it happens like this a lot with those chapters that have been reduced to only a couple squads with individual rivalries causing clashes that may even result in the seemingly loyal brother becoming a traitor himself, the hubris of an astartes is so great that he doesn't even notice his own evil doings as he falls which makes the tales of space marines falling even more tragic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julgolax Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 It seems as long as there's a believable reason, you can make any chapter, company, or squad fall to chaos even if they were noble and selfless (even for space marines). My personal favorite is a chapter that turned to chaos, however large or small a chapter may be, because of a certain reason. I've always thought that Slaanesh-devotees could have turned because they take pleasure in hoarding slaves for expanding their influence through the Imperium, converting populations to Slaanesh before descending upon them and reaping great rewards. Or perhaps my other idea was for a Chief Librarian (much like Brother-Librarian Sarpedon of the Soul Drinkers) to usurp the chapter master and corrupt his chapter in search of artifacts to increase their power, wealth, and knowledge. Starting a Cult of Tzeentch, the Librarians (now sorcerers) forge a pact with Tzeentch and learn the ways of daemon-binding and harnessing the chaos of the warp. Or perhaps my original idea for a chapter to fall to Khorne out of desperation and force, becoming blood-stained warriors seeking to conquer and spread their blood cults. I wish I could get a friend to play a game with me to see which tactics fit me best. As treacherous as it sounds, I'm actually taking a shine to the idea of following Slaanesh for the love of slaving, infiltration, and spreading Slaanesh's corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Is there a LGS near you? Or any independent retailer that hosts tabletop games? I'm sure that at the very least you can find someone there who will help out. The only other thing I can suggest is try writing out and fleshing out all three ideas. Whichever one seems to come more naturally to you and takes up most of your time is mostly likely going to be the one you would pick anyways. But yeah, you pretty much have the gist of the fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Xenthor Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 If you want a Pirate/Tyrant, who loves to deal with Slavery, infiltration and spreading its ooie-gooeyness...go with your Slaaneshy idea. For me and my DiY Chapter they were a loyalist chapter who was split by a Shism when one of their Librarians began to recieve visions from the 'Emperor'. the 'Emperor' wanted the Chapter to go around and aquire various Eldar artifacts of great power to bring the 'Emperor' back into glory. (Who do we know that loves Eldar artifacts....Ahriman >_> ) Not everyone agreed to this course of action and in the end it led to a very bloody civil war. So now I have both a Loyalist and a Renegade Chapter. That is of course a very very short version of the chapter and its history. Corruption can be a very quick or a very slow process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julgolax Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Is there a LGS near you? Or any independent retailer that hosts tabletop games? I'm sure that at the very least you can find someone there who will help out. There is, The Battle Standard, but most of the people in there are playing fantasy, Warmachine/Hordes, Dystopian Wars, MERCS, and other games when I'm there. Plus, I'd rather play games with people who care about my decision, not just to crush me because of my noobiness. haha The only other thing I can suggest is try writing out and fleshing out all three ideas. Whichever one seems to come more naturally to you and takes up most of your time is mostly likely going to be the one you would pick anyways. But yeah, you pretty much have the gist of the fluff. Well, I do love to write short stories and scenarios :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Is there a LGS near you? Or any independent retailer that hosts tabletop games? I'm sure that at the very least you can find someone there who will help out. There is, The Battle Standard, but most of the people in there are playing fantasy, Warmachine/Hordes, Dystopian Wars, MERCS, and other games when I'm there. Plus, I'd rather play games with people who care about my decision, not just to crush me because of my noobiness. haha Yeah, that does put you in a pcikle. The only other thing I can suggest is try writing out and fleshing out all three ideas. Whichever one seems to come more naturally to you and takes up most of your time is mostly likely going to be the one you would pick anyways. But yeah, you pretty much have the gist of the fluff. Well, I do love to write short stories and scenarios :) Well hey, at least you can do this! I know it's what I've been doing for the longest time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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