Cultists from the Planet of Sorcerers

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

So since the new Chaos Codex came out I'v heard nothing of Cultists for Tzeentch except for people saying that they are not worth taking.

 

However I have been running them for a while now with the 6++ and ... To be honest I disagree, I struggle to see how paying 1pt (!) per model, a grand total of 35 pts (!) For a fully maxed out squad, that will raise your chances of surviving any gunfire is a bad thing.

 

From experience of this I can honestly say that In all my time of playing with them I have only had 1 set of rolls out of abut 20/25 that has not had at least one cultist saved every time? That's like 5/6 cultists if not more per game.

 

I can't see the disadvantage?

[Shuggnuggath]

I suppose if you have the points to spare.

 

On the other hand since most things in a Thousand Sons have a 4++ your cultists can hug the cover since the rest of your force doesn't need it.

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

See I use them as a forcefield for my sorcerer that also packs a punch in shooting. The 6++ just helps to make the force field stronger as far as I'm concerned.

The 35pts in any army is a petty amount of points in any army and I would never go into battle without it, the only time I haven't I'v lost more than usual.

It's not a hard descision for me?

[Ethrion]

I wouldn't take MoT on cultists mainly because the cost, while cheap, is still 35 points that you can spend on something a lot more valuable and the 6+ invulnerable it gives is worse than the 4+ or 5+ cover saves that are commonplace all over the board. Ok they can't take cover saves from flamers but then again how many 6's are you going to be rolling from a flamer hit with the invulnerable? One or two perhaps - not worth the 35pts.

 

Finally, from a fluff point of view I don't see cultists being nearly important enough to have been even slightly blessed by Tzeentch to get an invulnerable. If anything they have allied themselves to Tzeentch but ultimately have been tricked and don't get "saved" as they were promised.

 

For me cultists are massive meat shields that can range ahead of the main force to get in the way or sit in the back and cap rear objectives freeing up the main army to do their thing. These two tactics don't require more points than necessary spent on them.

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

My biggest problem with that is that I'm not likely to have them in cover most of the time, I can understand if they were all behind an Aegis and safe, but to be honest as I just use them as a force field it's best to put it on them.

 

In my full list I use 1 Chaos Sorcerer in termi-armour with sigil and MoT (2+ 3++) surrounded by 35 of them, and then a Warpsmith with MoT and AoDG (2+ 4++) again surrounded by them.

 

Likelyhood being I will have maybe 1 sqaud of them behind an Aegis along with my Havoc squad hugging cover at the back to protect the havoc squad with a good load of fire, but other than those which I wouldn't put MoT on, I think it's a waste not to.

[Hellios]

Well I play Kroot merc list and in the Tau codex Kroot get the option to take a 6+ save for 1pt, I'm forced to take it as Kroot Merc list player. In that case it certainly isn't worth it because most weapons have AP6 or better anyway. A 6++ is a little different. I'm still not for it... Ok I have 30 cultists + 1pt for each of them... 30pts I suffer 30 wounds from whatever... I save 5 cultists. Now I could roll really well and save 20 cultists and that would be great. I am however more likely to roll no 6s and have 30 cultists die. Let's however say I save 5. Now unless I have some kind of special in that unit (champion, flamer, whatever), I would have been better off buying extra cultists instead. Now I have mentioned that upgrades that make each individual model worth more or really good roles would make the 6++ more likely to payoff. You do however get more common scenarios where you will be getting a better save from cover and won't be using the 6++ making it a waste.

 

Cultists are pretty much fodder, they are there to die, why waste points keeping them alive? The exception being if you make them a lot harder to kill for little extra investment; Typhus comes to mind, but his upgrade is free.

 

--EDIT--

 

When I say they are there to die, I do not mean it literally. That would be a waste. I mean they are a cheap expendable unit; a rule of thumb in these matters is to keep expendable units as cheap as possible, unless the upgrades you are giving them will really increase their effectiveness. For example a cultist with a flamer has a good chance of doing more damage than one with an autogun for only a few points and it is fairly easy to keep that one guy alive so that he can use it at least once. So it might be worth the investment. However if he was in a unit whose main task will be to camp objectives in your deployment, you have probably wasted points on a flamer.

[facmanpob]

....I would have been better off buying extra cultists instead.

 

This!

 

I think the point is that vanilla cultists are so cheap that it is more cost effective to buy more cultists than it is to pay for a 6++ save.

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

The problem with what everyone seems to be saying ''just buy more cultists'' is that seeing as I'm talking about 35 man squads, which can't take more cultists, I would have to spend even more points to even get another 10 man squad of them, therefore the whole purpose of buying more in defeated?

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

I would have been better off buying extra cultists instead.

 

The only problem with this is, ... You can't? 35 is the upper limit and therefore buying more to stop them from dying is not avaliable in your options.

 

 

I would have been better off buying extra cultists instead.

 

The only problem with this is, ... You can't? 35 is the upper limit and therefore buying more to stop them from dying is not avaliable in your options.

[*Furyou Miko]

Eh, then stop wasting points on cultists and put some meat back into your army.

[Babel_Triumphant]

There's really no good reason to fill all of your FoC troops slots with cultists. If you can't fit more, then it might be time to upgrade to marines.

[Hellios]

I would have been better off buying extra cultists instead.

 

The only problem with this is, ... You can't? 35 is the upper limit and therefore buying more to stop them from dying is not avaliable in your options.

 

 

I would have been better off buying extra cultists instead.

 

The only problem with this is, ... You can't? 35 is the upper limit and therefore buying more to stop them from dying is not avaliable in your options.

 

Whoa... You can only take one unit of cultists? I'm not saying it isn't worth it if you have nothing else to spend 30pts (or 60 or 90), but I bet you could find a better use elsewhere.

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

Sorry just to clarify what I meant was that you can't buy more cultists in that squad. Therefore making the 'just buy more cultists with the points' arguement irrelevant that's all. I could use the points elsewhere but to be perfectly honest it's never been a bad thing to take yet?

[Ethrion]

Well keep going with taking the mark of Tzeentch then if it's working for you but as for the rest of us, it seems we will have to disagree.

[Xenith]

The problem with MoT is that its only a 6++.

 

One in 6 models survive, for a 25% point increase.

 

Say you have 12 guys with MoT, and take 12 wounds. 10 die and leave you with 2.

 

Use the 12 points you spent on MoT to buy more cultists (3)

 

You now have 15 guys, and take 12 wounds. 12 die, leaving you with 3.

 

 

You actually keep more cultists alive by buying more models as opposed to a 6++.

[Kol Saresk]

So what's the mathhammer for the 35-man cultist squad with the MoT that the OP is running and how does it compare with his normal experience? Like the OP, I see a lot of Math Hammer for smaller squads and then the response "Get more bodies." But the OP is already at a full squad. So can we see something for that?

[Excessus]

Personally I have to scavenge for points anyway, I seem to always be short 10-30 points when I make my lists so I would gladly have that cultist squad without MoT.

[Xenith]

So what's the mathhammer for the 35-man cultist squad with the MoT that the OP is running and how does it compare with his normal experience? Like the OP, I see a lot of Math Hammer for smaller squads and then the response "Get more bodies." But the OP is already at a full squad. So can we see something for that?

 

Multiply my 12 man squad example by 3.

 

The main point is, you pay 6 points to change 6/6 guys dying from wounds, to 5/6.

 

You have paid 6pts to keep a single 4pt model alive. It's simply the law of diminishing returns.

 

The 35 man squad is best off being unmarked, then using the 35pts+another 15pts (drop 4 cultists?) and investing in an aegis line.

[*Furyou Miko]

What if you combine them with the Landing Pad for a 3+ invulnerable?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

How are people finding cultists on equipment wise? Is it better to take autoguns or not bother? And what about Special weapons?

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

So it's all well and good saying that you pay 6 pts for 1 4pt guy to survive, but (in response to the question about autoguns) it's a 5 pt man + the fact that it's not just going to work on one turn, you havent saved 1 guy you've probably saved two in the long run.

Plus as I have mentioned before, having them in the backlines simply isn't an effective use of them, they should be out as a force field while still having devestating amounts of firepower that can whittle down even Terminator sqauds?

[spafe]

So it's all well and good saying that you pay 6 pts for 1 4pt guy to survive, but (in response to the question about autoguns) it's a 5 pt man + the fact that it's not just going to work on one turn, you havent saved 1 guy you've probably saved two in the long run.

 

I think you've missed something here. average says you save 1 in 6. you paid 6 points to give them a save, and saved 4 points. now saying in greater numbers you'd save 2, well you dont. if you rolled 12 saves you'd save 2, but still only 8 points. Having said that, assuming a squad of 36 (I know 35 max but numbers easier), you save 6 after 36 saves. This is 24 points saved spending 36 (net lose of 12 extra points). however you then save one more of those 6, for no cost (as its factored into 1st save). So now it cost you 36 and saved 28 points. sadly you now have one cultist who dies next shot on average.

 

So it doesnt work for that points wise. However if you are running it and dont have any more troop slots, then it isnt the end of the world as your net lose is only 8 points.

 

Edit:

 

Sorry, jsut noticed the 5 points per autogunner.

 

therefore:

36 points saves you 30 points, (or 6 cultists left after 36 saves). you then pass one more leaving one cultist (35 points saved). he then dies. you are only 1 point lost in this format, meaning it effectly will break even. however bear in mind you say running forward shooting etc, well would it not be worth having a load more shots straight off the bat rather than trying to save some shots?

[Pilgrim Of Magnus]

Thank you for admitting that it does somewhat breakeven because of the end result, but only for units of 35 really, before that number I certainly agree that it doesn't really work because of the 'buy more' theory.

 

I just have 1 more thing to add into the mix.

I have two of these squads in my army, 70 cultists with 6++.

When you think about how low a price it is for these units, you begin to wonder whether the Math hammer makes so much sense. Even if you go squad to squad price wise, it's very unlikely with everything else on the field that you are gonna get 35 shots on each of the cultists going through.

So in the long run, cultists (unless the oponent decides to take them down especially) are going to last more than two turns unless they are extremely shooting heavy, in which case they may have an excuse.

 

Once the rest of the army is accounted for the cultists seem like a relatively small threat.

For space marines for instance, if you shot all of a ten man squads bolters, with all rapid fire that's 18 shots plus bolt pistol.

With only 4/6 hitting and 4/6 wounding that's only 8 hits, save 1 for instance, you still have 28 cultists. This is a more likely shooting attack against cultists?

[spafe]

I think that is a slightly harsh estimate, no heavy or spec wep? unlikely but possibly a combi flamer? lets assume they've gone multimelta, melta gun then, that makes them 175. your unit without any flamer, shotty or stubber is 220. I would expect a unit worth almost 50 points less than you to struggle, but overall I think it wouldnt. your example, they kill 7, lets keep that for ease. well its not a panic test, so thats good. you return fire, 52 shots, 26 hit, 7 wound, 2 die. playing this down I think they can whittle you down, or assult tie you up (half shots hurts you more), plus they can win a combat, sweep you. and this is a unit 50 points less, that is designed to kill tanks.

 

not saying its a bad unit, but 440 points minimum for what you describe is a significant investment for a bubble wrap. I'd go 2 units of 30 with 3 stubbers in each (easier to hide 3 models, everyone else keeps combat option, and still Str 4 reach out shots), for 60 points cheaper. But like I said, if it works, cant fault it, math shows they are roughly even in the scheme of things and will give you fun times when vindis scatter onto them and some walk away when you can say HA!, so rock on :(

[Hellios]

Thank you for admitting that it does somewhat breakeven because of the end result, but only for units of 35 really, before that number I certainly agree that it doesn't really work because of the 'buy more' theory.

 

I just have 1 more thing to add into the mix.

I have two of these squads in my army, 70 cultists with 6++.

When you think about how low a price it is for these units, you begin to wonder whether the Math hammer makes so much sense. Even if you go squad to squad price wise, it's very unlikely with everything else on the field that you are gonna get 35 shots on each of the cultists going through.

So in the long run, cultists (unless the oponent decides to take them down especially) are going to last more than two turns unless they are extremely shooting heavy, in which case they may have an excuse.

 

Once the rest of the army is accounted for the cultists seem like a relatively small threat.

For space marines for instance, if you shot all of a ten man squads bolters, with all rapid fire that's 18 shots plus bolt pistol.

With only 4/6 hitting and 4/6 wounding that's only 8 hits, save 1 for instance, you still have 28 cultists. This is a more likely shooting attack against cultists?

 

Math hammer is only there to give a rough guide of what might happen and as many have pointed out or even admit it means only so much once you have to work with an enemy, terrain the roles of the dice. However I don't think I would have issues putting 35 shots into a unit of cultists... The old IG army I used to run before I switched over to AirCav ran over 300 models. So if I make a blob squad with first rank, second rank... I am looking at a lot of shots... Even more at rapid fire range. If I'm running a very mechanized force I might be able to pretty much ignore your cultists unless your space marines can crack my cans open.

 

However it doesn't matter how long the cultists last. The cultists lasting longer doesn't really make the save more effective... If they take 35 wounds over 1 turn or over 2 they should still die in the same numbers. It isn't that buying then a 6++ is useless; it just isn't a terribly efficient use of points, but if you have nothing better to spend it on why not. Oh and cultists have pretty poor leadership so I have found that you often don't need to kill them all. Yes you can add characters to keep them going; this has a number of problems, often the cultists are not the ideal delivery unit for the character or people choose a cheap but not terribly useful character to lead them. Oh and let us not forget our friends; vindicares, mind-war and other abilities that can remove specific models from units.