Russ....alive ?

[Arkangilos]

But so far there is only one Heart of Iron revorded and no such device was recorded to be on place on Gulliman and actually it healed the Captain through the several times that they pulled him out stasis, left him out for a while and then put him. It still did not work in stasis.

 

I hadn't heard about that until now (the whole heart of iron). But I know it has been an established fact for a long time that there were "rumors" of him healing.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

But so far there is only one Heart of Iron revorded and no such device was recorded to be on place on Gulliman and actually it healed the Captain through the several times that they pulled him out stasis, left him out for a while and then put him. It still did not work in stasis.

Not exactly correct - the observation that one of the four bolter wounds was healed was made after he was in stasis; not while he was out. If the Heart of Iron only worked outside of stasis, then they would've noticed the healed wound right after one of the episodes when he's taken out for advice, which is not the case. The implication is that while the Heart of Iron speeds its process of healing up outside of stasis, it works within as well.

[Kol Saresk]

Angel Exterminatus, Page 134

 

"It's supposed to heal him, but you say it's killing him?" said Sharrowkyn.

 

"I understand little of what it is doing to him," confessed Tarsa, his voice cultured and precise. "It appears to be attempting to regrow some of his major organs, but with each iteration of renewal, his vitals go down across the board. If we were to let it take its course, the captain would be dead before it had repaired him enough to live."

Emphasis is mine.

 

Yes, you are right that the healed wound was noticed after he was put back in stasis. However, the Heart of Iron was only active when he wasn't in stasis, which would infer that it only worked when he wasn't in stasis. If I went on to put the next two or three pages down, it would show that their focus, while on his vitals, wasn't truly on him. They were sort of "Not seeing the forest for the trees". They knew he was wounded and they knew every time they brought him out of stasis his wounds would revert to being open wounds and start bleeding again. So they weren't paying too much attention to the actual physical state of the extent of his wounds, such as the number of wounds simply because they didn't think they were giving it enough time to actually work.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

The majority were, sure, but the Salamanders Apothecary tended to him after each of the two (I think it was) times they pulled him out. Pretty sure he would've noticed.

[Kol Saresk]

And yet it was the captain who just happened to look at him who noticed that the wound was healed, not the Apothecary. :D

 

To be honest, the more I look at it in the book(I'm currently reading it) the more it could go either way. No one is really paying attention to his body, just the vitals. The "tending" is just making sure the stasis works and that he isn't awake, not the actual status of his body since nothing should be happening while it is in stasis. Every comment they make about the Heart, gives the impression that it only works while he is pulled out of stasis. Nothing definitive is given to say if it works while in stasis although it seems to only move when the captain is pulled out of stasis and the only time anyone actually looked at him was when the captain looked.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Yes, not much to go either on it. In any case, all the UM need to do is find a Heart, take Guilliman out of stasis and slap it onto him. Boom! Papa Smurf I is back.

[Beef]

:D Russ is dead. We have the Space Wolf codex itself saying so.

Really? That would totally make my day.

Pathetic... :)

Uh-huh, not sure what that's supposed to mean. But when I see crap like this:

Russ is to badass to be killed. He is still floating around the eye of terror. To many conflicting accounts of his disapearance to say for sure he is dead.

 

 

 

 

Beacuse thats your personnal opinion. How many versions of Russ's disapearance do we have? Atleast 3 different accounts if not more, so before you refer to my post as crap take a look at how hard you are defending the death of a fictional character, its almost like Russ being dead makes your life better. Its not real.

[Kol Saresk]

Russ is to badass to be killed. He is still floating around the eye of terror. To many conflicting accounts of his disapearance to say for sure he is dead.

 

Notice the emphasis in bold? That is the "crap" I was referring to. Everything else is an opinion although stating "He is" gives the impression that there is concrete evidence when there is none.

[Beef]

Russ is to badass to be killed. He is still floating around the eye of terror. To many conflicting accounts of his disapearance to say for sure he is dead.

 

Notice the emphasis in bold? That is the "crap" I was referring to. Everything else is an opinion although stating "He is" gives the impression that there is concrete evidence when there is none.

 

 

My point was there is no concrete evidence to state he is dead or alive. I like the way people on forums really pick up on a word or two like 'He is' Dammit i need to try and get a lawyer to proof read my posts in future.

[Kol Saresk]

Normally, I don't although I have a habit of responding aggressiveness with aggressiveness and I will admit that I also cause escalation.

[Kol Saresk]

@Apothcary Vaddon: You may indeed be right about the Heart of Iron working in stasis. Or at least Apothecary Tarsa agrees with you. Just reached Page 336 and the impression given by the Salamander is that he believes that it is somehow working within the stasis even though nothing should be able to happen within a stasis field, but still notes that it only becomes active(or I guess hyperactive as the case may be) only when the stasis field is deactivated. It's still iffy on which theory is right, but definitely leans towards it doing something during stasis.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

There's definitely not enough info on it either way though, I agree with you there. I mean, McNeill literally pulled that out of nowhere and threw it into this book (and since the UM are his, well, CONSPIRACY THEORY TROLOLOLOL). It's a neat piece of fluff though, I think we all agree on that as well.

[Domhnall]

As far as Russ being alive or dead is concerned, I think the best compromise we can come to is that we have a case of "Schrodinger's Russ" :D

 

If GW ever decide to open the "end of times" box we can confirm that he is either alive or dead. But for now we can only assume that Russ is both alive and dead ;)

[Bulwyf]

@Apothcary Vaddon: You may indeed be right about the Heart of Iron working in stasis. Or at least Apothecary Tarsa agrees with you. Just reached Page 336 and the impression given by the Salamander is that he believes that it is somehow working within the stasis even though nothing should be able to happen within a stasis field, but still notes that it only becomes active(or I guess hyperactive as the case may be) only when the stasis field is deactivated. It's still iffy on which theory is right, but definitely leans towards it doing something during stasis.

 

 

I think you mean "Bulwyf" may be indeed right since I was the first one to point this out. :) The book clearly states the device worked in stasis as the Iron Hand captain went from four bolter wounds to only three and the wound that disappeared was completely healed. So it is in fact possible to heal in stasis. I also have to suggest that since the author is the same author that writes virtually all Ultramarine fluff and novels that this is a deliberate plot device to later reveal that before the UM put Papa Smurf in stasis they also slapped one of those devices on him hidden from plain sight.

 

This could eventually lead to his return from stasis and being an active primarch again. I frankly hope this does happen because I want to see the 40k storyline actually advance and see the primarchs return and the Emperor to either be reborn or actually die or be healed.

[AGPO]

Arguing over who is/isn't a fanboy on a website dedicated to discussing playing with plastic toy soldiers and the stories people have made up about them seems a tad odd to me.

[Kol Saresk]

Arguing over who is/isn't a fanboy on a website dedicated to discussing playing with plastic toy soldiers and the stories people have made up about them seems a tad odd to me.

It's all about degrees dear AGPO. Like the difference between a fan and a fanatic.

 

@Bulwyf: Okay fair enough you might be right although I said it that way because Vaddon was the one who went back and forth over it with me. However, I still would not draw the concrete lines that you are because the book does not clearly state. While Tarsa is examining it after Tyro noticed the healing of the wound, he makes several notes of the Heart only being actibe outside of stasis and that nothing is supposed to "happen" inside a stasis field even though the healing was only noticed after Branthan had been put back into stasis and that no one had ever really paid attention to his physical appearance as they were worried about his vitals because they thought they weren't giving it enough time to actually work. That's why I said it leans towards the theory that it might work in stasis, not confirm it as it could still go either way.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

@Apothcary Vaddon: You may indeed be right about the Heart of Iron working in stasis. Or at least Apothecary Tarsa agrees with you. Just reached Page 336 and the impression given by the Salamander is that he believes that it is somehow working within the stasis even though nothing should be able to happen within a stasis field, but still notes that it only becomes active(or I guess hyperactive as the case may be) only when the stasis field is deactivated. It's still iffy on which theory is right, but definitely leans towards it doing something during stasis.

 

 

I think you mean "Bulwyf" may be indeed right since I was the first one to point this out. :) The book clearly states the device worked in stasis as the Iron Hand captain went from four bolter wounds to only three and the wound that disappeared was completely healed. So it is in fact possible to heal in stasis. I also have to suggest that since the author is the same author that writes virtually all Ultramarine fluff and novels that this is a deliberate plot device to later reveal that before the UM put Papa Smurf in stasis they also slapped one of those devices on him hidden from plain sight.

 

This could eventually lead to his return from stasis and being an active primarch again. I frankly hope this does happen because I want to see the 40k storyline actually advance and see the primarchs return and the Emperor to either be reborn or actually die or be healed.

I think I mentioned it in the Angel Exterminatus thread when I started it, actually... double checking now

edit

forgot - I started the BoTS thread, not the AE thread. But yeah, I pegged it in that thread.

[Bulwyf]

@Apothcary Vaddon: You may indeed be right about the Heart of Iron working in stasis. Or at least Apothecary Tarsa agrees with you. Just reached Page 336 and the impression given by the Salamander is that he believes that it is somehow working within the stasis even though nothing should be able to happen within a stasis field, but still notes that it only becomes active(or I guess hyperactive as the case may be) only when the stasis field is deactivated. It's still iffy on which theory is right, but definitely leans towards it doing something during stasis.

 

 

I think you mean "Bulwyf" may be indeed right since I was the first one to point this out. :blink: The book clearly states the device worked in stasis as the Iron Hand captain went from four bolter wounds to only three and the wound that disappeared was completely healed. So it is in fact possible to heal in stasis. I also have to suggest that since the author is the same author that writes virtually all Ultramarine fluff and novels that this is a deliberate plot device to later reveal that before the UM put Papa Smurf in stasis they also slapped one of those devices on him hidden from plain sight.

 

This could eventually lead to his return from stasis and being an active primarch again. I frankly hope this does happen because I want to see the 40k storyline actually advance and see the primarchs return and the Emperor to either be reborn or actually die or be healed.

I think I mentioned it in the Angel Exterminatus thread when I started it, actually... double checking now

edit

forgot - I started the BoTS thread, not the AE thread. But yeah, I pegged it in that thread.

 

I'm talking about this thread. I was the first person to mention it in this thread and was the first person he responded to. I didn't have a chance to respond back to him until after you did.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

My bad. I was trying to be a dick a little too hard. :teehee:

[Bulwyf]

My bad. I was trying to be a dick a little too hard. :D

 

lol its ok I think we've all been there before. :P

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

My bad. I was trying to be a dick a little too hard. :D

 

lol its ok I think we've all been there before.

And then you stopped... wise move :(

 

As to the actual discussion. To the people who claim that simply because Russ did not die while gurgling out his final few words* it means that Russ is not dead... That seems very RAW (or FAW, I guess) but if that's what you choose to believe, so be it. I highly doubt that is the case, but if you want to hang on to the tiniest thread of belief that Russ might be alive, it is your hobby, you may do so :D

 

 

*I would also like to point out that it does say "...when the chapter is dying, even as I am now dying..." and to argue that Russ is referring to everyone always slowly dying doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because that doesn't apply to chapters, since they constantly regenerate and bring in new members. You have to work pretty fast and hard to kill off a chapter, and once the chapter is finally at the state of dying it isn't going to take long before it's over. If Russ is comparing his state of dying to a chapter's he's pretty much done for.

[Bulwyf]

My bad. I was trying to be a dick a little too hard. :verymad:

 

lol its ok I think we've all been there before. :teehee:

And then you stopped... wise move ;)

 

As to the actual discussion. To the people who claim that simply because Russ did not die while gurgling out his final few words* it means that Russ is not dead... That seems very RAW (or FAW, I guess) but if that's what you choose to believe, so be it. I highly doubt that is the case, but if you want to hang on to the tiniest thread of belief that Russ might be alive, it is your hobby, you may do so :lol:

 

 

*I would also like to point out that it does say "...when the chapter is dying, even as I am now dying..." and to argue that Russ is referring to everyone always slowly dying doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because that doesn't apply to chapters, since they constantly regenerate and bring in new members. You have to work pretty fast and hard to kill off a chapter, and once the chapter is finally at the state of dying it isn't going to take long before it's over. If Russ is comparing his state of dying to a chapter's he's pretty much done for.

 

 

Why is it so hard to believe Russ is alive since we know he went into the Eye and yet hundreds of thousands of Chaos Space Marines are alive and well in 40k and are just as old or even older than Russ is in temporal age? If Russ was alive when he went into the Eye which no fluff or lore has ever disagree with then why couldn't he still be alive now? We know for a fact the Eye has its own peculiar and bizarre timelines.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Because the Chaos Marines accepted Chaos, as opposed to having it forced on to them. Even with the Wulfen 'curse' I doubt they were lacking in mutations they would have to cut off and so weaken themselves - Chaos would have destroyed all of them sooner or later. Also, very few of them try to attack everything they ever see, and are universally hated for being the Emperor's dogs. Really, how long do you think he would survive in an utterly hostile and entirely fatal enviroment? All those veterans that survived - they did so by not making enemies and doing anything and everything possible just to live another day. Space Wolves would try and kill everything they see, and take losses every single time.

 

Think about it like this. Abbaddon managed to break Cadia, despite the strength of the Astartes Praeses and countless Imperial Guard regiments, with the power of the forces in the Eye. You have a few chapters and a primarch going to fight the same forces, much more unified in the forms of the Legions, and you think they're going to live very long? Especially such a tempting target such as a primarch?

 

I don't think so B)

[Bulwyf]

Because the Chaos Marines accepted Chaos, as opposed to having it forced on to them. Even with the Wulfen 'curse' I doubt they were lacking in mutations they would have to cut off and so weaken themselves - Chaos would have destroyed all of them sooner or later. Also, very few of them try to attack everything they ever see, and are universally hated for being the Emperor's dogs. Really, how long do you think he would survive in an utterly hostile and entirely fatal enviroment? All those veterans that survived - they did so by not making enemies and doing anything and everything possible just to live another day. Space Wolves would try and kill everything they see, and take losses every single time.

 

Think about it like this. Abbaddon managed to break Cadia, despite the strength of the Astartes Praeses and countless Imperial Guard regiments, with the power of the forces in the Eye. You have a few chapters and a primarch going to fight the same forces, much more unified in the forms of the Legions, and you think they're going to live very long? Especially such a tempting target such as a primarch?

 

I don't think so ;)

 

Not all the Traitors worship or even acknowledge Chaos and they are fine. They enjoy the benefits of being able to spend time in the Eye and they do not worship Chaos.

 

If a lost Chapter of the SW could survive in the Eye for thousands and thousands of years before leaving it then I think a freakin' Primarch and his elite guard would be just fine as well. You have Magnus talking to the statue of Russ in Battle for the Fang and the way he talks it is apparent Russ is still alive but being occupied somehow. It is IMO rather apparent that the lost Primarchs are still alive and for whatever reason GW is holding back on them for some possible later reveal in BL or an expansion to 40k.

[FallenArtist]

I always thought it would be interesting if Russ turned into a giant werewolf who is out of control and Magnus just thinks its funny or fitting that Russ has become the beast he has always seen him as. Now thats just my thoughts becuase i would find it as a good story but again im sure if we find out what has happened to him Russ will his usual self.