Dark Apostle Thirst Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Not all the Traitors worship or even acknowledge Chaos and they are fine. They enjoy the benefits of being able to spend time in the Eye and they do not worship Chaos. If a lost Chapter of the SW could survive in the Eye for thousands and thousands of years before leaving it then I think a freakin' Primarch and his elite guard would be just fine as well. You have Magnus talking to the statue of Russ in Battle for the Fang and the way he talks it is apparent Russ is still alive but being occupied somehow. It is IMO rather apparent that the lost Primarchs are still alive and for whatever reason GW is holding back on them for some possible later reveal in BL or an expansion to 40k. Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? I don't think so. Some like Talos might have time jumped, but for a pure ten thousand years? Nope. I haven't read Battle for the Fang - the whole idea that a few dreadnaughts and scouts could hold off an invasion isn't really appealing to me - so maybe it does hold something, but again I doubt that it substantially proves that Russ is alive as it would have already been brought up. Finally, I think someone in the Eye would have noticed that Russ was still alive. Abbaddon would love to get some more primarch blood on Horus's talon, and it would be huge for drawing more Chaos forces to his side. Instead you never hear about Russ. Ever. I'm pretty sure his corpse is mouldering somewhere in the Warp, just waiting to be reanimated for the plot's sake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? It depends on how you define "accepted". Worship? No, there are still some who don't worship it. Use it and therefore become corrupted by it? Yes, those guys still exist. Not even the members of Talos' Warband of the Broken Aquila truly escaped that fate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? It depends on how you define "accepted". Worship? No, there are still some who don't worship it. Use it and therefore become corrupted by it? Yes, those guys still exist. Not even the members of Talos' Warband of the Broken Aquila truly escaped that fate. Exactly. The Space Wolves would have to constantly reject it, and they would suffer for it. If they didn't reject it, then they are corrupted and are as much a detriment to Russ as any other traitor would be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Yep. And while they may not be exposed firsthand to the power of Chaos, according to the last Ragnar Blackmane's novel whose title I am forgetting because the book is apparently not where I thought it was, the armor of the 13th Grand Company was a mixture of salvaged components from the enemies they had defeated and their own, original armor. Which could imply that they are at least being exposed to it and the increased number of Wulfen among their ranks might end up being the final culmination of that corruption and be putting them in the same class as the Relictors and the Soul Drinkers as being neither "Imperial"(or rather not being recognized by the Imperium) nor Traitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Not all the Traitors worship or even acknowledge Chaos and they are fine. They enjoy the benefits of being able to spend time in the Eye and they do not worship Chaos. If a lost Chapter of the SW could survive in the Eye for thousands and thousands of years before leaving it then I think a freakin' Primarch and his elite guard would be just fine as well. You have Magnus talking to the statue of Russ in Battle for the Fang and the way he talks it is apparent Russ is still alive but being occupied somehow. It is IMO rather apparent that the lost Primarchs are still alive and for whatever reason GW is holding back on them for some possible later reveal in BL or an expansion to 40k. Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? There are plenty of CSM that are alive and well in today's 40k timeline that have rejected Chaos. You have the majority of entire Legions that the fluff and lore explicitly state they don't worship Chaos. They also don't have any of the corruption that comes from worshiping it as it is has been said more than once that some of the Traitor Legions have pure or almost pure gene seed in 40k timeline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Not all the Traitors worship or even acknowledge Chaos and they are fine. They enjoy the benefits of being able to spend time in the Eye and they do not worship Chaos. If a lost Chapter of the SW could survive in the Eye for thousands and thousands of years before leaving it then I think a freakin' Primarch and his elite guard would be just fine as well. You have Magnus talking to the statue of Russ in Battle for the Fang and the way he talks it is apparent Russ is still alive but being occupied somehow. It is IMO rather apparent that the lost Primarchs are still alive and for whatever reason GW is holding back on them for some possible later reveal in BL or an expansion to 40k. Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? There are plenty of CSM that are alive and well in today's 40k timeline that have rejected Chaos. You have the majority of entire Legions that the fluff and lore explicitly state they don't worship Chaos. They also don't have any of the corruption that comes from worshiping it as it is has been said more than once that some of the Traitor Legions have pure or almost pure gene seed in 40k timeline. I'm still confused with the NL? Are the renegade or chaos dudes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Not all the Traitors worship or even acknowledge Chaos and they are fine. They enjoy the benefits of being able to spend time in the Eye and they do not worship Chaos. If a lost Chapter of the SW could survive in the Eye for thousands and thousands of years before leaving it then I think a freakin' Primarch and his elite guard would be just fine as well. You have Magnus talking to the statue of Russ in Battle for the Fang and the way he talks it is apparent Russ is still alive but being occupied somehow. It is IMO rather apparent that the lost Primarchs are still alive and for whatever reason GW is holding back on them for some possible later reveal in BL or an expansion to 40k. Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? There are plenty of CSM that are alive and well in today's 40k timeline that have rejected Chaos. You have the majority of entire Legions that the fluff and lore explicitly state they don't worship Chaos. They also don't have any of the corruption that comes from worshiping it as it is has been said more than once that some of the Traitor Legions have pure or almost pure gene seed in 40k timeline. They haven't rejected chaos, they use it. Even the night lords had people use chaos (they had daemon princes). So you really can't say that the legions reject chaos, because they don't. They just don't "worship" it. They use it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Not all the Traitors worship or even acknowledge Chaos and they are fine. They enjoy the benefits of being able to spend time in the Eye and they do not worship Chaos. If a lost Chapter of the SW could survive in the Eye for thousands and thousands of years before leaving it then I think a freakin' Primarch and his elite guard would be just fine as well. You have Magnus talking to the statue of Russ in Battle for the Fang and the way he talks it is apparent Russ is still alive but being occupied somehow. It is IMO rather apparent that the lost Primarchs are still alive and for whatever reason GW is holding back on them for some possible later reveal in BL or an expansion to 40k. Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? There are plenty of CSM that are alive and well in today's 40k timeline that have rejected Chaos. You have the majority of entire Legions that the fluff and lore explicitly state they don't worship Chaos. They also don't have any of the corruption that comes from worshiping it as it is has been said more than once that some of the Traitor Legions have pure or almost pure gene seed in 40k timeline. Didn't you read what Kol had me clarify? I'm not saying everyone worshipped it Word Bearer style, but the only puritans that exist either time jumped, are semi-new or are Darth Vader like because of all the limbs they've had to chop off due to mutation that is a simple fact of life in the Eye. Even Russ wouldn't be able to stave it off forever, let alone any of his Wulfen. I will also point out the fallacy of arguing for any of the Legions to have rejected Chaos - 1) even the Iron Warriors use daemons, therefor accepting Chaos, and 2) those Legions have the strength and support of an entire Legion to help them. The Space Wolves were only a fraction of a legion and it seems an incredibly thoughtless part of the Legion at that, rushing straight into the Eye after the traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Last I heard, the only Legion that is supposed to actively reject Chaos is the Night Lords Legion and they....... Well let's just leave it at the Puritans are dying out. Mostly due to corruption and madness. So if the one Legion that is supposed to actively reject Chaos is being corrupted by it after ten thousand years of exposure, well it sort of gives a basis how a single company that has been in the same place for the same time can expect to be at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Not all the Traitors worship or even acknowledge Chaos and they are fine. They enjoy the benefits of being able to spend time in the Eye and they do not worship Chaos. If a lost Chapter of the SW could survive in the Eye for thousands and thousands of years before leaving it then I think a freakin' Primarch and his elite guard would be just fine as well. You have Magnus talking to the statue of Russ in Battle for the Fang and the way he talks it is apparent Russ is still alive but being occupied somehow. It is IMO rather apparent that the lost Primarchs are still alive and for whatever reason GW is holding back on them for some possible later reveal in BL or an expansion to 40k. Are the traitors who haven't accepted Chaos still alive after ten thousand years though? There are plenty of CSM that are alive and well in today's 40k timeline that have rejected Chaos. You have the majority of entire Legions that the fluff and lore explicitly state they don't worship Chaos. They also don't have any of the corruption that comes from worshiping it as it is has been said more than once that some of the Traitor Legions have pure or almost pure gene seed in 40k timeline. Didn't you read what Kol had me clarify? I'm not saying everyone worshipped it Word Bearer style, but the only puritans that exist either time jumped, are semi-new or are Darth Vader like because of all the limbs they've had to chop off due to mutation that is a simple fact of life in the Eye. Even Russ wouldn't be able to stave it off forever, let alone any of his Wulfen. I will also point out the fallacy of arguing for any of the Legions to have rejected Chaos - 1) even the Iron Warriors use daemons, therefor accepting Chaos, and 2) those Legions have the strength and support of an entire Legion to help them. The Space Wolves were only a fraction of a legion and it seems an incredibly thoughtless part of the Legion at that, rushing straight into the Eye after the traitors. Didn't you read what I wrote? The fluff and lore BOTH state there are Traitor Legions in TODAY'S timeline that have pure geneseed or almost pure geneseed so your argument that anyone whose in the Eye must be mutated by Chaos is simply incorrect. This is simply not true based on the actual lore. So yes, I do believe that a Primarch and his elite guards that went with him could be alive and well and simply trapped in the Eye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I'm not sure the IA articles are still "canon" anymore. Even then, the only two Legions(that I know of) that were said to have "pure" gene-seed(Alpha Legion and Night Lords) were still known to suffer from physical mutations, the Alpha Legion in particular. Pure gene-seed =/= free of mutation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Pure geneseed =/= no worship of the Dark Gods. The Word Bearers are noted to have incredibly pure geneseed for a traitor legion -_- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mysteriousmaskedmystery Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 chaos mutations are not strictly a result of corrupted gene-seed. if that were the case, only space marines could become mutated and that's simply not the case. chaos can cause mutation all on its own, no matter how pure a marine's gene-seed is. it could be argued that the traitor legions, since they have not been subject to the same levels of expansion and recruitment as the loyalist chapters, and thus should have fewer gene-seed 'generations' would be purer than their loyalist counter-parts since mutation is more likely to arise in reproduction and experimentation than spontaneously. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3251963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 You do realize that "pure gene seed" really just means that all of their organs function properly, right? It has nothing to do with actual mutations on limbs or anything like that. A corrupted gene-seed does not even mean that they are mutated, it just means that their organs don't all work, or can't be reproduced. Even quite a few loyalist chapters lack a pure gene-seed, with the Dark Angels and Ultramarines having the purest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3252039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The thing with Russ is, noone knows There was a piece of fluff back around 2nd or 3rd Edition which said that a group of Space Wolves (who had been searching the Eye of Terror for Russ) had found his armour discarded outside a Temple devoted to Khorne, but of the Primarch himself, there was no trace. Make of that what you will! He went to challenge Khorne and stripped his armour to even the odds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3301949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I think Russ either died at the hands of a superior Chaos champion or decided to follow Khorne. That makes the most sense to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 There is a piece in the old Ultramarine IA, and I think anywhere thatcovers their primarch's situation, where it says, "Some say the wound is slowly healing. How this is possible no one knows, for stasis usually prevents such things" (quoted loosely, but pretty close). Indeed, the most zealous pilgrims think he's healing. Just like lunatics believe in the star child theory. But in fact, the inquisition (and even the ultras, in RG's case) who know maybe a bit more about those matters than crazy fanatic #435, don't support those theories. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He is still alive so there's still some hope. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 If the only people that see him healing are just crazy fanatics, he's probably not healing at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Even if GW returns Russ or Vulkan, it doesn't necessarily mean the Imperium of Man wins Warhammer 40K forever. Dorn's fate shows us that if you throw enough Champions, Sorcerers, Lesser Daemons, and Possesed at a Primarch, he will go down eventually. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 It was a poetic ending for Rogal Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 ^ But the only realistic one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 On the pure gene seed argument, it seems to me that the Emperor designed each Primarch to be very different from each other (although arguably some are quite similar in many ways). So each Legion's gene seed replicates those differences. If the flaw described in Fear to Thread is indeed a flaw, might in not be based on a decision the designer took. Might he not have accepted an inherent weakness in return for a greater strength. Thus in having to fight the 'inner wolf', the VI Legion become one of his most dangerous, but trusted formations. However, by remaining a smaller Legion, they can be balanced by more stable, if less effective man-for-man, forces. Is Russ alive? In some form I imagine he is. If only because killing him off would be an unnecessary business decision for GW. Regards all, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266578-russalive/page/4/#findComment-3302888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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