Ravenwing

[Augustus]

As　Phoebus is doing an amazing job with his review I'll mention a few things that have not been said (I think).

 

 

The Tourney

I'm torn between thinking that this is really cool and really hokey. On the one hand I think its perfect for a well disciplined monastic chapter to vent frustration and work outside the lines of traditional command. Furthermore it is a possble tie to the Caliban Knightly Tradition. But I get this hokey vibe from it.

 

The Ravenwing

The Black riders are and the Ravenwing are portrayed not as White(Black) Scars but almost as a Knightly fighting unit. Pretty cool.

 

Names

Amanael and Annael. Due to the way I read...I mixed these guys up about a thousand times. Due to Annael being of the 5th company prior to his joining only added to my confusion. :D But I guess this ones on me.

 

Sword of Corswain

Pretty Cool. Safe to say that Corswain remains loyal throughout? ^_^ Although...I guess we don't know if this sword is actually THE Corswain's..

 

[Isiah]

Great stuff Phoebus :tu:. Enjoying your summaries a lot.

[Phoebus]

Augustus, feel free brother! I got done with the book, but I won't have a chance to post on the second half of the book until later today.

 

As for the availability of the book, those who pre-ordered the eBook version were able to download it last Friday. :tu:

[Kaika87]

Regarding the earlier discussion about

"Horus killing the Lion," I took that to be a lie blanketed over another layer of truth that Annael was not privileged to know yet. In fluff prior, it's discussed that chapter history is taught to new recruits by allegory and metaphor, instilling in them from a young age to loathe the betrayer. The way I see it, the fact that Luther laid the Lion low is the most closely-guarded of the Chapter's secrets, and only some of the Grand Masters can know that it was not Horus, but the Lion's most trusted friend. Hell, Malcifer seems to think he is privy to secrets not even Sammael knows.

 

Moreover, regarding talking about secrets with other chapters, if Annael is oath-bound to never utter a word of this secret to other Dark Angels, what makes you think they would bring it up as banter to an entirely different Chapter? The multiple layers of secrecy and lies and the honor oaths that they must never tell their secrets to any not initiated to them ensures their survival. If Annael were to for some hypothetical reason talk about Horus killing the Lion to Azrael, Azzy would play along as though his words were truth, if he even answered at all.

 

The entire point seems to be that this is an incredibly fragile and tenuous system strained to the breaking point, just as the Imperium itself is being overwhelmed.

 

[Phoebus]

Well, for better or for worse I couldn't keep my word. I got too sucked into Ravenwing, and I couldn't commit to a play-by-play. I'll offer my condensed thoughts going through the second and third books of this novel. Some of this stuff will be repeated from the previous posts.

 

Throughout the remainder of the novel, I felt Gav just did a terrific job with the dialogue between the Dark Angels. I may have been one of the harshest critics of "The Purging of Kadillus", and I have to say: everything that felt like it was missing from that entry of "Space Marine Battles" was here in spades. I honestly feel is as if Gav just nailed the character of a Chapter like the Dark Angels.

 

One thing that I always felt is that, in order for the Dark Angels to make sense as a Chapter, there had to be a dichotomy of sorts between those who were in the Inner Circle and those who were line battle-brothers. This dichotomy had to be based on what an inducted Dark Angel would do in order to preserve the secrets of the Chapter. The moral choices one would have to brave in order to maintain the Hunt against the Fallen, and the effect/consequences this would have on the individual making them would have to be shown. There would be a difference between those who have to walk this perilous path and those who don't. Gav could have made everyone in the Inner Circle a grim and dour schemer and torturer. Even worse, he could have just made everyone in the Chapter that way.

 

I'm happy to say that Gav did neither; he didn't take the easy way out. Sammael and

Chaplain Malcifer (who is, again, an Interrogator Chaplain even if he doesn't advertise it) share moments of quiet levity. They demonstrate a fundamental level of respect for each other and for those of their brothers not inducted in their secrets. They approach their duties with a solemn gravity, not cruelty or obsession. When they torture (on no less than two occasions), it is clear that even though they seek to instill fear in their prisoners they take no pleasure from their deeds - they are clinical rather than emotional, and understand that they commit a necessary (to them) evil.

 

 

This carries over to the rest of the cast. Some have a sense of wit about them, others are dour, and one is in fact a braggart and a dandy who never truly left behind his aristocratic childhood. Whether battle-brothers of the Fifth Company or of the Ravenwing, though, all possess an integral baseline of dignity that suits the Dark Angels - who are, after all, monastic knights-cum-Space marines, very well. There is increasing tension between the Companies, and it's fitting - since one unit doesn't know what the other is doing and why. That, too, is handled very well.

 

Another thing I thought was done quite nicely: this book picked up after "Angels of Darkness" almost seamlessly. Despite all the years that have passed since Gav penned that tone, it's obvious he put a lot of effort in making sure that there weren't continuity gaps. Sure, none of the heroes featured in the novel were in "Angels of Darkness", but the links are there and they fit nicely. The Fallen Astelan associated with? They're here. The mystery of Port Imperial? Features centrally in the Hunt. The fanatic armies Astelan set up on Tharsis? Part of a larger scheme that continues on. The questions of whether Astelan was a true believer, if he was trying to lead Boreas on, or if it was a bit of both?

 

Still to be answered...

 

Where Astelan is concerned specifically,

it is shown that not everything that he told Boreas was not true. Port Imperial was not destroyed. Did the Methelas and Avonel truly abandon him at Tharsis? One of the driving points of Methelas activities on Thyestes is its proximity to Tharsis and the proximity of both planets to Port Imperial. There's also the similarity between Astelan's Sacred Bands on Tharsis and Methelas' own corps of "Divines". Both are fanatic corps of warriors, and in addition they share similar names. And then of course there is the enduring loose end that Boreas himself recognized: that it couldn't be coincidence that the ship Astelan had shared with Methelas and Avonel returned after the former Chapter Master had been captured to plague Boreas specifically. It should be noted that Piscina is nowhere near Port Imperial and the two planets that were nearby it...

 

 

Probably the most interesting wrinkle arises when Sammael begins to consider Boreas' parting words more closely.

He never thinks Boreas was right in sympathizing with Astelan, per se. But he does begin to consider what the Hunt for the Fallen does for the Dark Angels. Two internal conflicts emerge inside him:

1. The first is whether they can truly consider their quest - and the things they do in the name of it - to be righteous and just. Sadly, this conflict is never truly realized in the last half of the novel. Sammael and Malcifer debate this topic, but this struggle is ended all too swiftly.

2. Sammael rightly remembers Boreas' warnings - that the Fallen used the Dark Angels needs against them. He recognized, in the end, that they used the Hunt against him and lured him to his own doom. They set him up and left him at a position where he lost the Gene-seed and had to decide whether he would die or live with shame and by causing the deaths of everyone in Kadillus. This, I thought, was going to be a delicious twist. Unfortunately, it never really comes up again. Malcifer makes a remark about not having time to engage in circular arguments or to assume that everything's a plot... and that's it.

 

 

Worse, in the fourth part of the novel, Sammael's choices - and, indeed, how the Chapter ways of handling things when they get near the Fallen - take a nose dive... in my humble opinion, at any rate.

It's funny; when I read "The Purging of Kadillus", I pointed out how I as a reader felt that Belial was spot on in confessing to Lexicanum Charon his fears that he would be demoted by Azrael for his conduct of that campaign. Likewise, while reading "Ravenwing", Sammael's choices as to how to capture the Fallen on Thyestes are interpreted by line battle brothers as bizarre and confusing. They undermine their loyalty in the Veteran Sergeant who leads them and who is, in fact, a member of the Inner Circle executing orders meant to further the capture of the Fallen.

 

As with Belial's confession, I thought the members of Squad Amanael were spot on in what they said. The more I got into it, the more disappointed I was by what I was reading. As good as books 1-3 of this novel was, book 4 just didn't come close to matching them (in my eyes, at least). The entire setup for how the Ravenwing were going to capture this Fallen struck me as contrived and illogical. Gav used tremendous imagination to showcase the advantages that Space Marine technology can provide in the first half of the book. He then did such an admirable job of showing how the Dark Angels - and their Inner Circle officers especially - take pains to make the hard decisions and do what they have to do. But after just a few pages in Book 4, it was as if the author had decided to write a completely different novel.

 

Suddenly, the Implacable Justice's previously formidable sensors were unable to penetrate winter weather in a temperate planet. The Grand Master of the Ravenwing, whose warriors were lauded as formidable scouts and masters of maneuver, decided it wasn't a worthwhile venture to look for their enemy - because at some point the Imperial Guard (and with them Inquisitors) could arrive to quell rebellion on Thyestes. Never mind that they had no arrival date. Never mind that just a few pages prior, upon reading the report on the planet, Sammael himself commented that this planet was so unimportant that centuries might pass before the Guard responded and that this was an advantage to their cause!

 

It was as if Gav had decided that this was the chapter where Sammael and Malcifer would have to make a HARD CHOICE and it didn't matter how questionable the means by which they (and their Inner Circle deputy commanding the Fifth) would carry it out.

 

After deciding that they will not invest any resources or time in actually trying to find the rebel headquarters (where they believe the Fallen to be), Sammael and his Inner Circle companions decide that the best course of action is to lie to the planet's governor about a plot by the rebels to infiltrate his palace; to pretend that they will escort him to safety in a secret place in the wilderness; and then let him be captured by the rebels. Sammael decides to send two squads of Dark Angels, two Rhinos, and a Predator tank as part of this ambush.

 

Now, I want you to think about the logic behind this plan real quick. If the Fallen was only able to call upon enhanced rebel fighters (more of the "Divine" that he commanded on Port Imperial) to help catch the Imperial Governor, how exactly did Sammael expect these Dark Angels (of whom only their Veteran Sergeant was in on the plan) to be defated or otherwise lose their charge? Was Sammael counting on them to be incompetent against inferior opposition? The only was this could work is if Fifth Company somehow ran into superior opposition. Was Sammael really willing to sacrifice as much as 20% of a Battle Company on a gambit to lure the minions of a Fallen who they weren't even sure was on that planet? I entertained that this might be a worthy sacrifice under truly trying circumstances, to catch a known enemy. To do so without even trying to use their considerable resources to find him first?

 

Long story short, the Dark Angels run into superior opposition, alright. Death Guard Chaos Space Marines and Defiler engines ambush them, quite literally mop the floor with them, and leave the few survivors feeling dejected, dishonored, and questioning the worth of their acting commander (the Veteran Sergeant).

 

If I'm going to be honest, I should have expected this turn from earlier on. As good as the character interactions were in the first three quarters of the novel, the way the majority of the battles were handled (minus Port Imperial) didn't make sense to me. I hate to say this, but I felt that as long as the central theme of the Dark Angels was conveyed - that the Chapter cannot let the uninitiated learn of the Fallen - Gav was satisfied. Making sure that the decisions, tactics, and actions of the Dark Angels ably reflected honed and experienced military minds, though? I felt as if this was purely a secondary consideration to him... and one that ultimately wasn't followed through with. Again, it's no coincidence that mere battle brothers find themselves wondering just how and why their very experienced commanders are making these tactically bizarre decisions that don't even pay out in the end. It's not like Sammael is using his dazzling genius to put the Fifth in awkward places that prevent them from learning of the Fallen AND end up gaining the overall force a brilliant win. Quite the opposite...

 

Would that have been so hard? Honestly? I find myself asking this question over and over. I don't think it should be. The answer shouldn't be "let's make these centuries-old super-soldiers with minds made for warfare arrive at solutions at once both overly simplistic and bizarrely unhelpful to their cause." On Hadria Praetoris, the Dark Angels of the Fifth Company are assigned to maintain blocking positions should the enemy flee their way following a Ravenwing assault. On Piscina IV, the Fifth Company are again ordered to hold outside Kadillus - not so much to help the PDF against the orks, but to keep the orks from interfering with the Ravenwing investigation of the Chapter Keep. In both cases, Gav is focused first, foremost, and only on the Dark Angels being Dark Angels - that is, agents of the Inner Circle's will - and never what it means to be a Space Marine. That is, on what Space Marines do well. If your own characters speak their mind as to how they're being misused, shouldn't that perhaps serve as an indicator that the author might have their commander use them differently?

 

Ultimately, the end of the novel struck me as simply anticlimactic. It's so sad because the pace of the novel up until Thyestes is excellent. It pulls you forward. It's constant, but not rushed. Events lead to other events, and you feel as if you're part of a hunt. Once the Dark Angels get in Thyestes, though? You have a tragic mismatch between a sacrificial pawn of a force and a small warband of Chaos, and then the Ravenwing eventually tracks and attacks the enemy at their stronghold. The final battle is largely omitted, and even the capture of the Fallen Methelas comes off almost as an afterthought - a largely uneventful closing action. Methelas never says anything we haven't heard half a dozen other Fallen say in half a dozen other stories.

 

Finally, one of the last disappointments in the last quarter for me was how several of the characters were handled in the epilogue itself.

 

If you've ever read the short story "Unforgiven" by Graham McNeill, there's certainly a precedent for uninitiated Dark Angels being brought into the higher mysteries under unplanned-for circumstances. Brother-Sergeant Kaelen, for instance, was exposed to the Fallen Cephesus, whom he slew after the renegade and his monstrous Angel of Blades slaughtered his assault squad and mortally wounded his Interrogator-Chaplain. Thing is, though, whatever the Inner Circle had thought of Kaelen before, and whatever their reasons for not trusting him to be inducted to the Deathwing... there's no doubt that, as a Veteran, he had the skill to take his part in the First Company. By contrast, when Sammael informs Telemenus and Daellon that they are to join the First Company, it feels like a sham. Their great deed was to survive. Neither displayed mettle worth mentioning in that final fight (not that Sammael would have known - he didn't see most of that fight, where Methelas took out the remainder of their squad). When Squad Amanael needed a new acting Sergeant, Telemenus was not chosen. His skill with the bolter is admirable, but his skill with the blade is admittedly sub-standard. Their induction is thus purely to keep their mouths shut. How does that make sense, though, when for over four years one of the fluff pieces of the Dark Angels has been that Chaplains who don't pass the interview process to become Interrogator-Chaplains are mind-wiped? Making matters worse, "Ravenwing" heavily implies that the Dark Angels don't retain firm memories of fighting Chaos Space Marines due to hypno-indoctrination... but suddenly Telemenus and Daellon get a pass?

 

I just don't get that. If you want the characters to receive an impressive reward and be put in a more central position for future stories, why not have them get there by doing impressive things?

 

 

Rant over.

 

Three quarters of "Ravenwing" were, to me, the best book I've read on the Dark Angels and one of the better novels I've read from the Black Library, period. It wasn't just a good Dark Angels book, it was a very good book, period. Part Four of "Ravenwing", however, just disappointed me. I wish this had been a longer novel. I wish it's last couple of chapters had been meatier. I wish

the battle against Methelas and his Death Guard proxies had been a proper campaign that showed the tenacity and cunning of the enemy, and the will, perseverance, and skill of Sammael and his warriors as well.

 

 

I would recommend this novel to any fan of the 40k milieu. It's an invaluable look into the Dark Angels for those who like the Chapter. Unfortunately, it obviously also holds what I (at least) consider to be some disappointments. Such is life! I don't want anyone to read the latter half of my post and infer that I'm somehow not excited about the next two novels in the "Legacy of Caliban" series. That is not the case. While I'm probably going to be resigned to the fact that Gav will not always show the Dark Angels behave in ways I would expect them to (on the battlefield, at least), he has shown that he has these characters more or less nailed and that he can provide an excellent background for them to operate in. He has seized on what made this Chapter interesting (its background, legends, themes, etc.) and given it a life of its own!

 

If you happen to read this, well done Gav! I'm overly critical at times, but that was $8 well spent for me. Whatever my criticisms for Part 4, the only reasons I put the book down over the last couple of days was to sleep, eat, work, and bathe. I look forward to "Master of Sanctity"!

 

SIDE THOUGHTS:

There were a lot of neat little things I liked about "Ravenwing" -

 

 

[*] As readers, we know what the Ravenwing does, and why they do it. But how does the Inner Circle's choice to hold back the "less elite" Companies while the Ravenwing goes after key targets get interpreted by line battle brothers? They consider them glory hounds, and assume that this practice has more to do with elitism. I just thought it was interesting that the rest of the Dark Angels don't so much think that the Second Company are fearsome and reclusive (with the exception of the Black Knights, below)... but rather that they are somewhat showboat-ish.

 

[*] Gav's take on Astropathic visions. It was an elegant way of conveying interstellar communication, and neatly reflected examples from other authors. The message behind the vision? No less than a call from Azrael for Sammael & Co. to move toward Piscina, to investigate a threat to the Chapter: the death (or possible betrayal) of an Interrogator-Chaplain.

 

[*] The motivations of one of the main members of the Inner Circle are revealed. Sammael is so much more than a sinister schemer and plotter. Really, he's not that at all. He's a schemer by necessity, one who doesn't like having to lie and perform low deeds, but who is driven by his loyalty to the Chapter and the legacy of his gene-ancestors to do so. Specifically, he feels his position always entails balancing the needs of the hunt with the duty the Chapter owes to the Imperium.

 

For example, Sammael wrestles with the moral conundrum of opening fire on the opposing civilians who, despite their attack on his warriors, he still considers desperate civilians and unarmed citizens. I really liked that. Why? Because I've always felt that what makes a Space Marine what he is is the ability to still feel that he is a noble, puissant warrior and champion of Mankind... even after he does terrible things.

 

[*] Gav gives us a nice look into the way Dark Angels remember their lives. Or, rather, how they don't remember them. Another recruiting world is mentioned: Bartia - a world whose terminology (Taiga plains, yurts, bow-wielding hunters) summons thoughts of White Scars. Telemenus, a product of this world, was certainly ballsy. One of his great uncles had been taken by the Dark Angels, which was an honour for his family. Being very skilled, the boy is also brought before the Dark Angels, generations later. While the rest of the 8-9 year old kids quail before the Chaplain, Telemenus faces him down and asks him if he's his uncle! Great moment, I thought!

 

[*] Much has been said about the sinister reputation of the Dark Angels. Interestingly, though, in "Ravenwing", the Second Company's warriors reveal to us that it's a surprising when loyal Imperial citizens would shun them.

 

[*] When Sammael, Malcifer, and Harahel hear Boreas' last message (to tell the person in the solitary cell at the heart of the Rock that he was not wrong), they confirmed my worst fear. Sammael's lie to Harahel reveals that Boreas was not trying to say to Astelan "you were not wrong" (which would make sense, and would elegantly tie in both to Boreas' warnings that the Dark Angels have lost their way AND to Astelan's claims that the Dark Angels have become sinister, etc.)... but was intending this message for Luther. That just doesn't make sense to me, because Boreas never shows that he lost faith in the Lion - and certainly not that he took to Luther - but that he lost faith in what the Dark Angels had become as a Chapter.

 

[*] Great zinger by one of the Fifth Company: "A stairwell is no obstacle to the warriors of the Fifth Company ... The Ravenwing must submit to that eternal truth." Gotta love the underlings mocking their betters!

 

[*] The tourney between the Fifth Company and the Ravenwing... really good stuff. I liked that it hearkened back to knightly tournaments without losing the sense of solemnity and dignity that the Chapter displays throughout the novel.

 

[Phoebus]

Regarding the earlier discussion about

"Horus killing the Lion," I took that to be a lie blanketed over another layer of truth that Annael was not privileged to know yet. In fluff prior, it's discussed that chapter history is taught to new recruits by allegory and metaphor, instilling in them from a young age to loathe the betrayer. The way I see it, the fact that Luther laid the Lion low is the most closely-guarded of the Chapter's secrets, and only some of the Grand Masters can know that it was not Horus, but the Lion's most trusted friend. Hell, Malcifer seems to think he is privy to secrets not even Sammael knows.

 

Moreover, regarding talking about secrets with other chapters, if Annael is oath-bound to never utter a word of this secret to other Dark Angels, what makes you think they would bring it up as banter to an entirely different Chapter? The multiple layers of secrecy and lies and the honor oaths that they must never tell their secrets to any not initiated to them ensures their survival. If Annael were to for some hypothetical reason talk about Horus killing the Lion to Azrael, Azzy would play along as though his words were truth, if he even answered at all.

 

The entire point seems to be that this is an incredibly fragile and tenuous system strained to the breaking point, just as the Imperium itself is being overwhelmed.

 

 

Again, I don't have an issue with there being layers of truth that vary between one's level of initiation. My issue is that this particular lie is a loose end. The lie to be used should be crafted in a way that it can't be disputed by a non-Dark Angel (well, except a Fallen) regardless of how unlikely the circumstances would be. See my example earlier for that. The Dark Angels are the only witnesses to what happened on Caliban. Period. No other person save a Fallen can dispute them.

 

Besides, it's not a matter of Annael or any other Dark Angel revealing something to an outsider. It's more about what a Dark Angel could hear from someone else. The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels sailed together to Terra. When they meet, they duel one another. What happens the next time a Space Wolf says something off-hand about the Lion and the Wolf getting to Terra too late for the final battle between Horus and the Emperor to someone other than the top few members of the Inner Circle? That generates questions, and now the Inner Circle has to do damage control. At some point, it becomes disingenuous to promote anyone who accidentally saw or heard the wrong thing to greater positions of trust and responsibility.

 

And at the end of the day, this lie dates back to when the Dark Angels had complete control over what lies they wanted to propagate to outsiders and novitiates within their Chapter alike. Not when the Imperium was collapsing. I struggle to see why they would choose a loose end as the tale to tell so many individuals in a dangerous position - those placed within units undertaking the Chapter's most sensitive missions... but who haven't proven trustworthy enough of the truly meaningful secrets...

 

 

;)

[lost_angel]

What a great summary. Hat's off Phoebus for a detailed yet concise commentary:)

[Artemid]

What a great summary. Hat's off Phoebus for a detailed yet concise commentary:)

 

 

This! I'm glad most of the book was handled very well. I'm kinda curious to pick it up now to get that mood.

 

I am, however, extremely concerned that Phoebus' woes from the last part of the book will be what much of the new codex will feel like....

[Augustus]

Do to the Heresy being half myth. The Dark Angel could say. "The Lion was not late! He was struck down along with Sanguinius on the Vengeful Spirit." YOUR primarch was late. Wolf-turd...lol

 

I thought it interesting that the Dark Angels 5th company had no idea what the Death Guard was.

[Phoebus]

That was kind of old school, to be honest. It made me think of Ian Watson's earlier material, when the Space Marines were kept deliberately ignorant of many things.

 

As for the other bit... I LOL'ed, Augustus, but I stand by my point. Especially if Bjorn the Fell-Handed was present for whatever reason.

 

"Uhm, I was there when your Primarch showed his fury for being late for that battle. If it makes you feel any better, he did stab Russ through one of his hearts. And they became friends again afterwards. Which makes me wonder why you're still dueling each other. Idiots."

 

;)

[Harleqvin]

Regarding the earlier discussion about

"Horus killing the Lion," I took that to be a lie blanketed over another layer of truth that Annael was not privileged to know yet. In fluff prior, it's discussed that chapter history is taught to new recruits by allegory and metaphor, instilling in them from a young age to loathe the betrayer. The way I see it, the fact that Luther laid the Lion low is the most closely-guarded of the Chapter's secrets, and only some of the Grand Masters can know that it was not Horus, but the Lion's most trusted friend. Hell, Malcifer seems to think he is privy to secrets not even Sammael knows.

 

Moreover, regarding talking about secrets with other chapters, if Annael is oath-bound to never utter a word of this secret to other Dark Angels, what makes you think they would bring it up as banter to an entirely different Chapter? The multiple layers of secrecy and lies and the honor oaths that they must never tell their secrets to any not initiated to them ensures their survival. If Annael were to for some hypothetical reason talk about Horus killing the Lion to Azrael, Azzy would play along as though his words were truth, if he even answered at all.

 

The entire point seems to be that this is an incredibly fragile and tenuous system strained to the breaking point, just as the Imperium itself is being overwhelmed.

 

 

Again, I don't have an issue with there being layers of truth that vary between one's level of initiation. My issue is that this particular lie is a loose end. The lie to be used should be crafted in a way that it can't be disputed by a non-Dark Angel (well, except a Fallen) regardless of how unlikely the circumstances would be. See my example earlier for that. The Dark Angels are the only witnesses to what happened on Caliban. Period. No other person save a Fallen can dispute them.

 

Besides, it's not a matter of Annael or any other Dark Angel revealing something to an outsider. It's more about what a Dark Angel could hear from someone else. The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels sailed together to Terra. When they meet, they duel one another. What happens the next time a Space Wolf says something off-hand about the Lion and the Wolf getting to Terra too late for the final battle between Horus and the Emperor to someone other than the top few members of the Inner Circle? That generates questions, and now the Inner Circle has to do damage control. At some point, it becomes disingenuous to promote anyone who accidentally saw or heard the wrong thing to greater positions of trust and responsibility.

 

And at the end of the day, this lie dates back to when the Dark Angels had complete control over what lies they wanted to propagate to outsiders and novitiates within their Chapter alike. Not when the Imperium was collapsing. I struggle to see why they would choose a loose end as the tale to tell so many individuals in a dangerous position - those placed within units undertaking the Chapter's most sensitive missions... but who haven't proven trustworthy enough of the truly meaningful secrets...

 

 

:o

 

I am interested in seeing how it is worded.

I mean if it just says Horus killed the Lion then it would be right in a way. but if it said that Horus in single combat slew the Lion in twain. it would be a loose end. lqtm

 

[Phoebus]

 

"Horus, arch-traitor, thrice-cursed, had murdered the primarch of the Dark Angels."

 

Following this, we get a short description of Annael's reaction to this. The clincher is a paragraph that states Chaplain Malcifer related the tale of the Horus Heresy to Annael: that the Dark Angels had fought against the evil of Horus and the primarchs he corrupted, and that they had triumphed; that the victory had been won at a great cost, and that the Lion had given his life to defeat the enemy.

 

That paragraph didn't bug me. That sounds vague and plausible enough to be passed off to Scouts and newly-inducted Battle-Brothers. Horus murdering the Lion, though, is another matter. The thing to remember is that it doesn't matter whether you can justify the lie in the way Obi-Wan Kenobi tries to justify the lie about Anakin Skywalker being killed by Darth Vader. It's not about being able to say, "See, I wasn't really lying to you." Everything that the Dark Angels do is meant to keep secret their great shame. Any lie that can be disputed by someone who has no reason to lie to the Dark Angel and who can offer both context and authority to back his position will at the very least raise questions. That's the last thing the Dark Angels want.

 

Hence why I have been so intent on asking why a more plausible lie couldn't have been invented.

 

But again, this is part of my larger complaint against parts of this book that end up being a minority of the overall work. It ties into how I was disappointed with Sammael's use of Fifth Company: how such a highly experienced, cunning commander wasn't portrayed in a way where he could achieve his aims without issuing orders that were bizarre and demoralizing to the Fifth Company... and undermined their faith in their direct commander.

 

 

I don't mean to sound mean-spirited, condescending, or insulting toward Gav. Again, I think he did fans of the Dark Angels a solid, overall, with "Ravenwing". On the other hand, I just don't feel that he put as much thought and effort in a couple of facets of the book. Such is life, though. It's rare that you'll find any read lacking discernible flaws. And, at the end of the day, I admit that it could just be a matter of me being overly critical/picky. :o

[Augustus]

It is a big lie. But I don't know how any other Chapter would confront the DA about it.

 

There are people who believe the world is flat after all.

[Vazzy]

 

mettle worth mentioning in that final fight (not that Sammael would have known - he didn't see most of that fight, where Methelas took out the remainder of their squad). When Squad Amanael needed a new acting Sergeant, Telemenus was not chosen. His skill with the bolter is admirable, but his skill with the blade is admittedly sub-standard. Their induction is thus purely to keep their mouths shut. How does that make sense, though, when for over four years one of the fluff pieces of the Dark Angels has been that Chaplains who don't pass the interview process to become Interrogator-Chaplains are mind-wiped? Making matters worse, "Ravenwing" heavily implies that the Dark Angels don't retain firm memories of fighting Chaos Space Marines due to hypno-indoctrination... but suddenly Telemenus and Daellon get a pass?

 

I just don't get that. If you want the characters to receive an impressive reward and be put in a more central position for future stories, why not have them get there by doing impressive things?

 

 

This was the biggest issue I had with the novel, it's like, "Yeah, I'm a somewhat arrogant Braggart whose disregard for orders is the only reason I was promoted." Like, what? It creates an interesting precedent, such as, what if Telemenus was a scout? I'm assuming he'd be mindwiped, or God Emperor forbid, disappeared, but, Gav suggests that he might be promoted to the Deathwing, which would be hilarious, in my opinion. But overall I realy liked the book.

[Harleqvin]

 

I get ya on the part about adding them because they saw it when they do Mind wipe Chaplains if they don't meet the standard... If that was how it is being done. Maybe they just needed more guys in the DW... :o

 

The lie part seems vague enough, or maybe I should say more figuratively meaning, that it is meaning that because Horus caused the heresy the Lion died. So Horus murdered him even though "he" didn't physically kill him, just that his actions caused his death.

 

 

I think it's more figuratively meant.

[pueriexdeus]

OK, so whats going on here. GW retcon of DA lore and history, or it was not proof read by someone who knows the history of the Un-Forgiven? But it's a good story?

[Harleqvin]

I am 100% positive that the above mentioned was meant figuratively.

so that if others hear it they will just think that because of what Horus did caused Lion's death. Not making a loose end. Blaming all problems on the Main guy who started the issue and not the actual person who physically did it.

 

 

 

The DW promotion, I wonder if there is more to it and it just seems like it's that.

 

 

I very much look forward to reading this myself.

[Phoebus]

Again, the "figuratively meant bit" is neither here nor there.

 

 

Whether they meant the lie literally or figuratively doesn't make a difference. The point of the lie isn't for the Dark Angels to be able to say "A-ha, but we technically didn't lie to you" like the conversation Luke has after he finds out Obi-Wan lied about Darth Vader killing his father. The point is to be able to tell a lie that can't be disproven until they choose to tell the truth to the initiated.

 

That's the whole point about what I was talking about earlier: lies that CAN'T be disproven by anyone (and thus can't lead to questions being raised). If you're willing to sacrifice millions of allies, see worlds burn, etc., the last thing you'd be doing is telling a story that could fall apart in the worst case scenario. ESPECIALLY if you can tell a lie that NO ONE can disprove instead!

 

 

Augustus,

 

It's not about convincing someone. It's only about raising doubts. About forcing a confrontation and conversation between the Inner Circle and people they don't think are worthy of these secrets at a time not of their choosing. It goes against the grain of all the efforts the Dark Angels take to keep their secrets. And it wouldn't be an issue if someone wasn't telling a false story that goes against what four different First Founding Chapters and their Successors hold as their most sacred lore - to include a Chapter that the Dark Angels certainly quarrel with, but all the same interact with on a frequent enough basis.

 

What are the odds that this will happen? Extremely low. Ridiculously low. That's not the point, though. The point is that the Inner Circle would never have left this kind of loose end to chance. They would have told the right story (the one with no witnesses except Dark Angels) the first time around. :lol:

[Harleqvin]

 

But it doesn't go against what four founding and successor Chapters hold as lore. One can say that the Iron Hands Primarch was murdered by Horus because it was his fault even though he didn't personally do it. He can still be blamed for murdering him. Unless it was stated in such a way as to be completely contradictory to there lore, which it doesn't from what you have said, was written. It didn't go into detail saying Horus killed Lion in single combat above Holy Terra, did it? If it didn't it's not a loose end as it can be easily explained to any who say something about it and/or it would most likely be taken as being that they are blaming him, that it was his fault it happened, not that he personally did it. I am thinking that SMs of other Chapters would take it that they are blaming Horus and leave it at that as most would have such a great hatred of Horus any ways.

 

I see why it's being said it's bad as it can be taken as straight up literal and that if something is said to someone they will be like "No. That's not what happened." Instead of figuratively "Horus murdered many of our brethren."

 

 

As said I am looking forward to reading it myself and see how things are written. Maybe after reading it I may have the same view. It just seems from the information you have given it may not be as bad as one is thinking on that spot.

 

 

The DW promotion thing really does sound off from the fluff we currently have. From what you have said that seems really off and seems surprising as they have been doing pretty good at making the stories cohesive and not having blatant bad discrepancies between the fluff.

 

Also because of this it makes me wonder what the "story" was given to the Imperium as to what happened to Lion.....

 

[Reinen]

Where Astelan is concerned specifically, it is shown that not everything that he told Boreas was not true. Port Imperial was not destroyed. Did the Methelas and Avonel truly abandon him at Tharsis? One of the driving points of Methelas activities on Thyestes is its proximity to Tharsis and the proximity of both planets to Port Imperial. There's also the similarity between Astelan's Sacred Bands on Tharsis and Methelas' own corps of "Divines". Both are fanatic corps of warriors, and in addition they share similar names. And then of course there is the enduring loose end that Boreas himself recognized: that it couldn't be coincidence that the ship Astelan had shared with Methelas and Avonel returned after the former Chapter Master had been captured to plague Boreas specifically. It should be noted that Piscina is nowhere near Port Imperial and the two planets that were nearby it..

.

 

I think that this too simple explanation and obvious association. And that looks too obviously, can appear a lie.

The founder of an intrigue is Сyрher. :)

It never would leave on Kadillus data which would help his enemies.

 

 

Each time when Cypher leaves any data, hunters catch minor characters. Cypher uses Astelan's history in the purposes. It seems to me, he again deceives an chapter.

[Phoebus]

But it doesn't go against what four founding and successor Chapters hold as lore.

 

Yes it does. :D

 

Think about it. To the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, and the White Scars, the Siege of Terra is hallowed history. They take pride in knowing who was at the Siege of Terra. Conversely, the Space Wolves and their Primarch travelled to Terra with the Dark Angels and the Lion.

 

Unless their annals are woefully incomplete, none of those Chapters have a reason to think Lion El'Jonson died before Horus did. It's not about whether the Dark Angels could argue it was a figurative legend if they were exposed. It's simply about having to explain the lie, period. That's the last thing they want to do.

 

 

I see why it's being said it's bad as it can be taken as straight up literal and that if something is said to someone they will be like "No. That's not what happened." Instead of figuratively "Horus murdered many of our brethren."

 

I don't think I'm making myself clear. Allow me to elaborate.

 

Luke asks Obi-Wan Kenobi, "What happened to my father?"

Obi-Wan knew Luke's father, and responded: "Your father was a powerful Jedi Knight and a skilled pilot. Darth Vader killed him."

 

The truth of the matter, though, was that Luke's father betrayed his friends and took the name Darth Vader. Eventually, Luke confronted Vader and the dark lord revealed to the young man that he was, in fact, his father. When Luke met Obi-Wan the next time, he pointed out that he lied to him. Obi-Wan reflected, much like you are about the Dark Angels lie, that when Luke's father cast off all that he believed in and devoted himself to dark forces, it was as if he killed the man he had once been and became something new.

 

The point being, Luke was at some point going to have to confront Darth Vader. That's what he was being groomed for. The lie was designed to keep a teenage boy from being crushed by the fact that his father had become the galaxy's second most evil man... by failing to master the same discipline that Luke was being introduced to. As such, it didn't need to be lasting. A lie as a metaphor served as an adequate place-holder until the day the new Jedi Knight would be able to face the evil Dark Lord.

 

It's the same thing with the lie of the Dark Angels. At best, it's a metaphor. You yourself point this out. The problem is, the Dark Angels aren't Obi-Wan trying to keep a cruel truth from one boy for a short period of time. They're trying to keep the Imperium from finding out what happened forever. They are as obsessive in this aim as the Imperium is in its own goals. Given this context, a metaphorical lie that can be disputed - however unlikely that even might sound - doesn't serve the aims of the Dark Angels.

 

Again, it's not about being able to say, "Technically, we didn't lie to you... as it could be said that Horus had a hand in the Lion's death." It's about telling a lie that no one can ever dig up evidence to dispute. And thus, having no loose ends that can expose the Inner Circle in any way.

 

 

The DW promotion thing really does sound off from the fluff we currently have. From what you have said that seems really off and seems surprising as they have been doing pretty good at making the stories cohesive and not having blatant bad discrepancies between the fluff.

 

It's worth pointing out that this is an echo of what Boreas did in "Angels of Darkness". He inducted his squad into the Deathwing "on an emergency basis" to deal with the Fallen situation developing in Piscina IV.

 

The big difference being, of course, that he was dealing with an emergency... while Sammael had a plethora of options before him.

 

Also because of this it makes me wonder what the "story" was given to the Imperium as to what happened to Lion.....

Exactly. ;)

 

Ultimately, I get that not everyone will feel the same way I do about this. I think we're both at that polite "agree to disagree" point where this is concerned. All the same, though, I'm interested in hearing any opposing point of view. ;)

 

Cheers!

[Harleqvin]

You are making yourself clear. I am just saying that it is not necessarily as bad as you are saying it to be. It is something that would most likely be taken by others as them blaming him and not being literal. It happens all the time in the 40kverse. It's a very plausible.

 

and yeah we are at that polite spot. I like a good discussion :) I do my best not to get all up in arms about things especially when it is with something that can be seen either way.

[Brother Immolator]

What bugs me most is, that GAV continues to hand out bases for ill thought out lore accounts. I am pretty sure that I will be reading posts like:

The Lion was killed by Horus, he is in no Cell]

. Just as he did with Astelans confession. That OFC depends on the reader (whether he can put 2+2 together) but....

[redhorse]

Is it possible to remove the spoiler covers?

[Captain Semper]

Just select them with the cursor and the text will become visible.