The Guilliman Heresy

[Grotsmasha]

I was doing concept legion badges for new traitor legions. I'd need to dig through the threads to see what I've done and who's left.

[Conn Eremon]

That's really appreciative, Grot. Olis and I have been talking in messages, and the topic of symbols came up.

 

Here's some of my ideas on a couple we haven't really thought about yet, and some mock-ups to help visualize while we decide would be a great help.

 

The Khanate is its own, separate faction in our alt. setting. It exists because of the Imperium's inability to fully invade the Maelstrom to root them out, and because of their own efforts in claiming entire sections of the Imperial Webway and sealing them off. It's the embodiment of the renegade; it's neither loyal or Chaos. It's a rival human empire, forged by the White Scars Legion and their Primarch after being betrayed by both sides.

 

For a symbol, I'm thinking that merging two canon symbols would fit them quite nicely. The first is, obviously, the symbol of the White Scars. The second being that of the Maelstrom Warders:

 

There's two ways that I think it could work. One, keep the White Scar bolt of lightning, and impose it upon the Maelstrom. Secondly, replace the White Scar bolt with the Maelstrom. Personally, I like the first option better. EDIT: The Maelstrom could, of course, be rotated, stretched or otherwise modified to make it work.

 

What do you guys think? What colors would work? White or Gold Maelstrom? Red or Gold Bolt?

 

 

The other symbol to consider is that of the Auretian Technocracy, which replaces the Martian Mechanicus.

 

I'm thinking of taking the current symbol:

http://i.imgur.com/YIbmm43.jpg

 

And replacing either the skull or the cog with the alpha symbol. In either example, keep the black/white design.

 

 

Again, thoughts? Any further ideas, such as for the Investigatus? Thanks to GuillimanHeretic's artwork of Lorgar, Olis and I are starting to consider merging our Investigatus with our Agnostica into a single organization. It makes a lot of sense now that FW's Inferno has introduced the Investigatus as canon, a merge might better bring our version more in line with theirs.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Conn Eremon

[Olis]

I was doing concept legion badges for new traitor legions. I'd need to dig through the threads to see what I've done and who's left.

 

Iconography sounds like a good avenue to explore. 

 

The Talon of Ultramar - A massive lightning claw, based on Guilliman's old power fist called the Hand of Dominion. Fitted with an underslung heavy bolter that could annihalate even the toughest of opponents, and with clawed fingers that tore through armor like it were made of paper, it had no equal even among the traitor forces. The Talon was built by Belisarius Cawl and his Dark Mechanicum followers as a companion to the Armor of Destiny itself, with the armor and the Talon designed to operate with perfect synthesis.

 

I think, with the Talon, I'd be inclined to make it a little different given that it comes from a Dark Mechanicum Cawl, as opposed to the canon one. Embedding the gun within the gauntlet itself, like Huron and his melta-power-fist thing, seems like a cool way to go. Personally, in regards to the fingers of the glove, I'd be more comfortable with generic pointy finger-tips, rather than the scorpion-stinger ones, but that's down to personal preference, really. 

 

Regardless, the conceptual work (and related fluff) of Guilliman in his latter heresy guise, as opposed to before he fully grasped the power of the Dark Gods, is really quite interesting. It's an exploration of the setting that neither me or Conn had gotten around to, yet. 

 

Now then. I wonder how Guilliman managed to figure out where Drach'nyen was...

[GuillimanHeretic]

Maybe later I'll have another go at the Talon, but I really need to do full colour designs of Dorn and Vulkan sometime soon, plus I also have my Tzeentchian version of the Raven Guard to worry about.

 

Another question, what do you guys think of having successor Legions, like the canon Chapters? Legions that have a different name and colour scheme but when a particular 1st Founding Legion gathers somewhere at full strength (such as the Imperial Fists in the War of the Beast, etc.) they gather with their original Legion. Because I think this is another thing where my version differs from the original. I'm a Dawn of War 1 player, it's what got me into the franchise as a whole, and I used to be obsessed with the army painter and different colour schemes and looking for people's made-up Chapters. Plus the opportunity to create successors of Legions such as the Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus and the like is pretty much irresistible. Though I'm not sure who would come up with the idea or think it has any merit, perhaps Perturabo? I created a successor once called the Praetorians which he uses as the main guardians of Terra.

 

I think where it differs from canon would be that not all Legions would be required to do it, and some would only create a few. The Space Wolves naturally wouldn't bother making any. Still the idea of breaking up the Legions into smaller ones to avoid another catastrophe like the Heresy from inflicting too much damage is a pretty good one. And it lets me create loyalist mirror-images of existing traitor warbands out there. (Plus the traitor Legions have plenty of warbands and Chaos Chapters like the Bloody Handed and Crusader Host, and the Omega Legion probably have countless Chapters for every Chaos God).

 

Also, who would you guys pick as the Hand of the Sigilite? I went with Remus Ventanus of the Ultramarines, purely because I wanted an Ultramarines captain at the time and his name was the first to come up. TGH has had one particular benefit in that it's forced me to research the canon timeline over and over again. But part of me wishes I went with Sigismund, he's already a Knight and his Legion falls to Nurgle much like Garro's does in canon. Still you guys probably used him for the Crusader Host instead. The Roboutian Heresy uses Aeonid Thiel, or at least Nemris on DeviantArt used him, so I had to do something different with him, I basically use him as the Saul Tarvitz of the Heresy instead.

 

 

 

Again, thoughts? Any further ideas, such as for the Investigatus? Thanks to GuillimanHeretic's artwork of Lorgar, Olis and I are starting to consider merging our Investigatus with our Agnostica into a single organization. It makes a lot of sense now that FW's Inferno has introduced the Investigatus as canon, a merge might better bring our version more in line with theirs.

 

 

 

 

Ah, cool. The thing with Lorgar is I don't think he'd hang around letting the Sigilite do everything, once he finds out about his secret project I think he'd get pretty involved with it. The more I thought about how to design him, the more a "Primarch of the Inquisition" feel seemed right for him. He's always going to be either the first to study the occult and daemonic, or the first to study how to destroy it. So whatever the equivalent of Ordo Malleus there is, he'd be their founding father.

 

I don't think Grey Knights are at all necessary in this universe, as there's the Thousand Sons and Imperial Heralds. But Kill-Teams from various Legions like the original Knights-Errant and the Deathwatch make a lot of sense to me, only after the Heresy they'd paint their armor silver rather than black.

 

That reminds me, what do you guys think of the Thousand Sons renaming themselves the Blood Ravens after Magnus' internment in the Golden Throne? Again, for me it's irresistible.

 

Wait, the Investigatus is canon? Where does it say that?

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Conn Eremon]

Maybe later I'll have another go at the Talon, but I really need to do full colour designs of Dorn and Vulkan sometime soon, plus I also have my Tzeentchian version of the Raven Guard to worry about.

I would very much like to see what you can come up with for a Slaaneshi Vulkan and Nurgloid Dorn. Both of these Primarchs do already have a visual appearance set in stone, but it's one of those things being held back until both Olis and I are ready to return to this project at full blast. It'd be great to see where you take it, how you envision these Primarchs based off of what is available in these threads and your own ideas that you've brought into it.

 

Another question, what do you guys think of having successor Legions, like the canon Chapters? Legions that have a different name and colour scheme but when a particular 1st Founding Legion gathers somewhere at full strength (such as the Imperial Fists in the War of the Beast, etc.) they gather with their original Legion. Because I think this is another thing where my version differs from the original. I'm a Dawn of War 1 player, it's what got me into the franchise as a whole, and I used to be obsessed with the army painter and different colour schemes and looking for people's made-up Chapters. Plus the opportunity to create successors of Legions such as the Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus and the like is pretty much irresistible. Though I'm not sure who would come up with the idea or think it has any merit, perhaps Perturabo? I created a successor once called the Praetorians which he uses as the main guardians of Terra.

 

I think where it differs from canon would be that not all Legions would be required to do it, and some would only create a few. The Space Wolves naturally wouldn't bother making any. Still the idea of breaking up the Legions into smaller ones to avoid another catastrophe like the Heresy from inflicting too much damage is a pretty good one. And it lets me create loyalist mirror-images of existing traitor warbands out there. (Plus the traitor Legions have plenty of warbands and Chaos Chapters like the Bloody Handed and Crusader Host, and the Omega Legion probably have countless Chapters for every Chaos God).

Regarding DoW I, you and me both. It's what brought me into 40k, and why I began as, and will always be, a DIYer, or a Liberite to use the board's term.

 

The idea of creating successor legions is kinda cool, and would be a neat idea to explore. For the Guilliman Heresy, as developed by Olis and I, the means of adding DIY potential comes with the passing of time rather than institutionalized succession. Over time, the Legions become less homogenized, and individual units within begin to develop their own identities, sigils and colors. It doesn't happen all at once, and the time taken will vary, but after ten thousand years have passed the loyalist Legions of the Guilliman Heresy may be no more cohesive than the canon traitor Legions by that same point.

 

Also, who would you guys pick as the Hand of the Sigilite? I went with Remus Ventanus of the Ultramarines, purely because I wanted an Ultramarines captain at the time and his name was the first to come up. TGH has had one particular benefit in that it's forced me to research the canon timeline over and over again. But part of me wishes I went with Sigismund, he's already a Knight and his Legion falls to Nurgle much like Garro's does in canon. Still you guys probably used him for the Crusader Host instead. The Roboutian Heresy uses Aeonid Thiel, or at least Nemris on DeviantArt used him, so I had to do something different with him, I basically use him as the Saul Tarvitz of the Heresy instead.

To be honest, I'm not sure if that's something we've explored yet. I don't believe Remus Ventanus or Aonid Thiel have yet been presented in our Heresy, but I believe that was actually intentional. It's nothing against those characters, they're great characters. But one of the things I remember being discussed and agreed upon is that we'd like to show other Legionary characters come to the fore rather than fully recycling the canon BL series. The reasoning being that with the events of the Heresy and Great Crusade before it having so much potential for change, it comes with the potential for other individuals to somehow prove their worth and rise to the forefront, and for those who otherwise would have been in the forefront to fail to do so.

 

Another reason why I don't believe we've explored the canon Crusader Host is because our Sigismund's fate is already set in stone, and the name of his Nurgle-themed warband is the Crusader Host.

 

 

Ah, cool. The thing with Lorgar is I don't think he'd hang around letting the Sigilite do everything, once he finds out about his secret project I think he'd get pretty involved with it. The more I thought about how to design him, the more a "Primarch of the Inquisition" feel seemed right for him. He's always going to be either the first to study the occult and daemonic, or the first to study how to destroy it. So whatever the equivalent of Ordo Malleus there is, he'd be their founding father.

 

I don't think Grey Knights are at all necessary in this universe, as there's the Thousand Sons and Imperial Heralds. But Kill-Teams from various Legions like the original Knights-Errant and the Deathwatch make a lot of sense to me, only after the Heresy they'd paint their armor silver rather than black.

Your thoughts on this matter pretty closely follow what the Guilliman Heresy has done, though some of this content might not ever have made it to the thread itself. The idea of silver-painted kill-teams is a thought to consider.

 

That reminds me, what do you guys think of the Thousand Sons renaming themselves the Blood Ravens after Magnus' internment in the Golden Throne? Again, for me it's irresistible.

Honestly, I'm going to give a hard pass on that. What makes the Blood Ravens so interesting to me is their drive to know where they came from, and their doctrine of hoarding all information they come across being an extension of that. I personally feel like the hints laid out by Black Library's series were a mistake, because it got too close to confirmation. And I believe the powers that be there agree, for that particular thread has been wholly abandoned since. But that's my own personal preference.

 

Wait, the Investigatus is canon? Where does it say that?

Yes. If you have access to Forgeworld's Inferno, take a gander at the Sisters of Silence. They are the militant arm of the Divisio Investigates.

 

As I said to Olis yesterday, by changing the role of the Sisters of Silence to that of the Agents of the Emperor, by having the Konrad Curze successfully lobby for a return to force that which was eclipsed by the Sisters of Silence, and by having Lorgar petition for Iterator Order to be militarized and subsumed within the Investigatus, you get an institution that is honestly not that much different than the canon one, but has expanded roles that combine the Guilliman Heresy's Adeptus Agnostica (which is what our Lorgar founds) and our own Adeptus Investigatus (which was developed in a vacuum).

 

And yeah, we are going to be making a change to reflect the canon Divisio Investigates. Unless something we have already changed affects something later revealed, then we will shift our work to accommodate. More often than not, anyway. What I wrote above is my initial thoughts along those lines, to get the ball rolling.

[GuillimanHeretic]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would very much like to see what you can come up with for a Slaaneshi Vulkan and Nurgloid Dorn. Both of these Primarchs do already have a visual appearance set in stone, but it's one of those things being held back until both Olis and I are ready to return to this project at full blast. It'd be great to see where you take it, how you envision these Primarchs based off of what is available in these threads and your own ideas that you've brought into it.

 

 

 

The more description you can give me, the better. I could use a brief when drawing them both. As long as nothing doesn't particularly sit well with me, I'll let you know.

 

Regarding DoW I, you and me both. It's what brought me into 40k, and why I began as, and will always be, a DIYer, or a Liberite to use the board's term.

The idea of creating successor legions is kinda cool, and would be a neat idea to explore. For the Guilliman Heresy, as developed by Olis and I, the means of adding DIY potential comes with the passing of time rather than institutionalized succession. Over time, the Legions become less homogenized, and individual units within begin to develop their own identities, sigils and colors. It doesn't happen all at once, and the time taken will vary, but after ten thousand years have passed the loyalist Legions of the Guilliman Heresy may be no more cohesive than the canon traitor Legions by that same point.

 

I like that idea, and it's better than having a moment with a particular Primarch (in this case, Perturabo) declaring "From now on the Legions will be divided into smaller Chapters!" and forcing everyone to go along with it. Kind of a dumb move on Guilliman's part there, actually.

 

Here's my idea. How about getting rid of the whole notion of a "Founding"? Instead of the first twenty Legions being the First Founding, and the newer Chapters being founded in waves. Instead, each Successor Legion is simply numbered, so if it's the 666th Legion to be founded, then it's the DCLXVI Legion. And then given a name and a colour scheme, if they don't have one already.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure if that's something we've explored yet. I don't believe Remus Ventanus or Aonid Thiel have yet been presented in our Heresy, but I believe that was actually intentional. It's nothing against those characters, they're great characters. But one of the things I remember being discussed and agreed upon is that we'd like to show other Legionary characters come to the fore rather than fully recycling the canon BL series. The reasoning being that with the events of the Heresy and Great Crusade before it having so much potential for change, it comes with the potential for other individuals to somehow prove their worth and rise to the forefront, and for those who otherwise would have been in the forefront to fail to do so.
 
Another reason why I don't believe we've explored the canon Crusader Host is because our Sigismund's fate is already set in stone, and the name of his Nurgle-themed warband is the Crusader Host.

 

 Yeah, it's hard to realistically say whether fifty years of change (much less 500) since the timeframe of the Horus Heresy, in a universe where the HH still hasn't happened yet, which named characters would still be alive and which ones would be killed off in some particular battle. Hence why I promoted Aeonid Thiel to Captain, and Remus was (at least temporarily) a Chapter Master at one point while the previous one was missing or presumed KIA.

 

I also want to try and establish new versions of the Warrior Lodges and the Mournival into the Dark Angels and Ultramarines in the 50 years leading up to the Heresy. The Dark Angels could have "Inner Circles" like they do in canon 40k. Which could then spread to the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and possibly others. I'm just not sure about the name, or how to make it plausible that Guilliman would approve of the idea or how he could be persuaded to. Especially coming from a rival like the Lion. Or does it not really matter?

 

Aeonid Thiel I thought about making a close advisor to Guilliman before he's killed on Ichar IV (an event which is the Isstvaan III of the Guilliman Heresy). So he's an equivalent of a Mournival member, others possibly being Gage, Ventanus and... Verus Caspean? Phratus Auguston? I dunno.

 

Since these are all named characters that already exist, what about we work out a new character, someone who would have been a lowly Legionnaire at the start of M31, or a newer recruit from the Five Hundred Worlds, a byproduct of Guilliman's ruthless recruiting. Someone who is essentially the Ultramarines reincarnation of Abaddon, and ends up commanding the Ultramarines 1st Company during the Heresy. He could wear a big badass suit of Terminator armor (Cataphractii or Tartaros or whatever) and be in charge of the Suzerain Invictarii (Drakus Gorod was the leader during the Horus Heresy, we could just have him killed off.)

 

It's a bit late for me to change my Knight-Errant choice though, it didn't take me long to get attatched to Remus Ventanus, and I even have a model of him now which I've painstakingly converted. I need to take some photos of it soon. Still, I may end up drawing Sigismund as the Hand of the Sigilite one day just as a "What if?" scenario (within a What If scenario). Because it sounds so cool.

 

Your thoughts on this matter pretty closely follow what the Guilliman Heresy has done, though some of this content might not ever have made it to the thread itself. The idea of silver-painted kill-teams is a thought to consider.

 

 

Last year I tried a bunch of Deathwatch conversions, but ended up hating nearly every one of them. I guess it depends when I'm allowed to start using MkVIII power armor in Kill Teams, presumably the entire Legiones Astartes become kitted out in MkVIII or better by M41, instead of just a majority wearing MkVI/MkVII. For some reason I like the idea of Space Marines becoming increasingly like Navy SEALs with pouches galore, like a certain Deathwatch concept art picture.... where'd I put it... this one: http://i.imgur.com/jXTwIx7.jpg

 

Speaking of power armor, I decided ages ago to swap MkV and MkVI around, so the 'Corvus Suit' is completed and shipped out to the Legions before the Heresy, as MkV armor, as it was originally intended. The MkVI 'Heresy' suit is both a prototype MkVII and a patchwork mishmash of previous Marks and elements of armor. That way the arms, legs, the round kneepads and the helmet grille make as much, if not more sense. MkVII is simply a finalized, improved version. If it's used at all. But whatever suit is used during the Siege of Macragge, should become a serious badge of honor among the loyalists, in my version it's the Heresy Suit.

 

That way, I can collect a Sons of Horus army someday in Maximus, Corvus and Heresy suits. Corvus has always been my favourite (I'm a complete Beaky lover) but since Betrayal at Calth last year, Maximus has become intensely nostalgic. I'm currently stuck with Death Guard MkIIIs and keen to move on again.

 

Honestly, I'm going to give a hard pass on that. What makes the Blood Ravens so interesting to me is their drive to know where they came from, and their doctrine of hoarding all information they come across being an extension of that. I personally feel like the hints laid out by Black Library's series were a mistake, because it got too close to confirmation. And I believe the powers that be there agree, for that particular thread has been wholly abandoned since. But that's my own personal preference.

 

 

Understandable, though my personal preference is for the 1k Sons to become Blood Ravens post-heresy, so chalk it up to my personal "brand" of Guilliman Heresy.

 

Here's my thinking: After the Rubric of Magnus, the 1k Sons would be so few in number, that they'd have to refound themselves all over again. And it's not hard to imagine members of the Corvidae Chapter surviving, with Azariah Vidya among them, if not their leader. That, and I personally dislike the name "The Thousand Sons" for a Legion of Space Marines. They're never going to be a thousand Astartes strong, or even in that ballpark. They're always going to be a lot more, or a lot less. So it just seems like a silly name at best, and arbitrary at worst. I'd prefer the name Blood Ravens anyday. Also with the Blood Angels falling to Khorne, the most popular Marine Chapter (almost everybody at my local GW store has them but me) if not the most popular 40k faction IRL, are missing. I need red Space Marines that aren't candy red any longer.

 

And purely selfishly, there's my Dawn of War nostalgia, and seeing their canon counterparts vindicated. I want to see Gabriel Angelos in this universe in M41, even if it makes no sense. It might be more visually interesting if he were a Thousand Son though. In terms of canon, I wouldn't really mind if GW all-but-confirmed that they were founded by/descended from Thousand Sons, but that's just me. To me that's the coolest thing about them, that they might be the living legacy of a traitor Legion. It explains so much about them, especially why they wouldn't have any memory of it, it's something their founders would take to the grave. But loyalist Chapters that are secretly from traitor Legions in 40k, is a lot like Order 66 Survivors in Star Wars. It's such a cool idea, it's really tempting to have a million of them, but then it makes them no longer special.

 

Blood Ravens have been getting some love from GW lately.... if I wasn't collecting Dark Angels....

 

How about having a loyalist Legion in the GH universe, post-heresy, with the same sense of mystery? Since the Iron Hands fall to Tzeentch here and in my "version" on DeviantArt  the Raven Guard fall to Tzeentch, it could be a Legion that appear to be founded from the Raven Guard, but have no real records of their past. That could work.

 

I sense a Tzeentchian plot. Surely it's no coincidence that my version of the Raven Guard fall to Tzeentch...

 

Yes. If you have access to Forgeworld's Inferno, take a gander at the Sisters of Silence. They are the militant arm of the Divisio Investigates.

As I said to Olis yesterday, by changing the role of the Sisters of Silence to that of the Agents of the Emperor, by having the Konrad Curze successfully lobby for a return to force that which was eclipsed by the Sisters of Silence, and by having Lorgar petition for Iterator Order to be militarized and subsumed within the Investigatus, you get an institution that is honestly not that much different than the canon one, but has expanded roles that combine the Guilliman Heresy's Adeptus Agnostica (which is what our Lorgar founds) and our own Adeptus Investigatus (which was developed in a vacuum).

And yeah, we are going to be making a change to reflect the canon Divisio Investigates. Unless something we have already changed affects something later revealed, then we will shift our work to accommodate. More often than not, anyway. What I wrote above is my initial thoughts along those lines, to get the ball rolling.

 

 

 

So, what about the Ordos? The Ordo Malleus/Xenos/Hereticus? Who takes care of those roles?

 

Last year I had this idea regarding the Deathwatch. It's inspired by watching Star Trek Deep Space Nine all the way through, for the millionth time. In Star Trek, there's Section 31 which operates from within the Federation but are answerable to no-one. Basically the canon Inquisition in 40k. But in the Guilliman Heresy, the entire Imperium still answers ultimately to the Emperor himself, and relations with certain Eldar craftworlds (and possibly even Tau, if that's where this is headed, personally I couldn't care less about the Tau or their caste system society) means that not every Xenos race is automatically considered a threat. So the Imperium of M41, in the GH universe, is more political in nature, with emissaries, diplomats and treaties. And how to deal with aliens is a much trickier issue.

 

So, there's a spectrum of opinions, all well-founded and thought out, from the ordinary civillians and Imperial Army soldiers who had to fight against alien invaders only for the Emperor to make deals with them, allowing them to take their homeworld in exchange for some other thing, to the Emperor's Children Marines who deal with the Eldar on a regular basis and are good pals. And have a bigger picture in mind.

 

So to reflect this, I thought about creating The Watch, an organization of what would otherwise essentially be Blackshields, as well as human agents working at every level of society from soldiers to planetary governors. All have a burning hatred of xenos, working as spies and terrorists, and basically being the Maquis from Star Trek. All have complete anonymity, removing any Legion heraldry or even records of their existence if possible. Even the name, like Star Trek's Section 31, is simply a code, something that can hide them in plain sight.

 

Their colour scheme could be black. Black, black and more black. Even the gold parts, black. Just spray 'em and yer done!

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

Another question, what do you guys think of having successor Legions, like the canon Chapters? Legions that have a different name and colour scheme but when a particular 1st Founding Legion gathers somewhere at full strength (such as the Imperial Fists in the War of the Beast, etc.) they gather with their original Legion. Because I think this is another thing where my version differs from the original. I'm a Dawn of War 1 player, it's what got me into the franchise as a whole, and I used to be obsessed with the army painter and different colour schemes and looking for people's made-up Chapters. Plus the opportunity to create successors of Legions such as the Emperor's Children and Sons of Horus and the like is pretty much irresistible. Though I'm not sure who would come up with the idea or think it has any merit, perhaps Perturabo? I created a successor once called the Praetorians which he uses as the main guardians of Terra.

 

I think where it differs from canon would be that not all Legions would be required to do it, and some would only create a few. The Space Wolves naturally wouldn't bother making any. Still the idea of breaking up the Legions into smaller ones to avoid another catastrophe like the Heresy from inflicting too much damage is a pretty good one. And it lets me create loyalist mirror-images of existing traitor warbands out there. (Plus the traitor Legions have plenty of warbands and Chaos Chapters like the Bloody Handed and Crusader Host, and the Omega Legion probably have countless Chapters for every Chaos God).

 

The idea of having new Legions (successors or otherwise) is novel to me. My first thoughts on the matter head directly to whether it would be possible for the Emperor to craft a new batch of Primarchs, however I feel this particular avenue cheapens the idea of Primarchs altogether in the context, so I think having any 2.0 Primarchs is a dead end. 

 

However, it has occurred to me that rather than have direct successors, I think the idea of raising a new Legion whole cloth from fresh gene-seed intriguing. Why have a descendant of a Legion when the capability and motive is there to craft a brand new one? And what would the original Legions think of the newer ones? Food for thought, at least.

 

Also, who would you guys pick as the Hand of the Sigilite? I went with Remus Ventanus of the Ultramarines, purely because I wanted an Ultramarines captain at the time and his name was the first to come up. TGH has had one particular benefit in that it's forced me to research the canon timeline over and over again. But part of me wishes I went with Sigismund, he's already a Knight and his Legion falls to Nurgle much like Garro's does in canon. Still you guys probably used him for the Crusader Host instead. The Roboutian Heresy uses Aeonid Thiel, or at least Nemris on DeviantArt used him, so I had to do something different with him, I basically use him as the Saul Tarvitz of the Heresy instead.

And here we delve into unexplored territory. Personally, I'd either break from canon and craft an entirely new character or... give the position to my favourite character from the very first FW HH black book: Crysos Morturg. I mean, I really want to do something of note with him, so why not this, eh?

 

I don't think Grey Knights are at all necessary in this universe, as there's the Thousand Sons and Imperial Heralds. But Kill-Teams from various Legions like the original Knights-Errant and the Deathwatch make a lot of sense to me, only after the Heresy they'd paint their armor silver rather than black.

In regard to the the Grey Knights, they would not exist in the GH 'verse. There is sufficiently differing circumstances that they have little reason to crop up here. Inter-Legion kill-teams, however, does strike a pretty cool chord. Something to expand upon later, I reckon.

 

That reminds me, what do you guys think of the Thousand Sons renaming themselves the Blood Ravens after Magnus' internment in the Golden Throne? Again, for me it's irresistible.

 

I find myself here in full agreement with Conn. The initial hints given out by the powers that be kinda rubbed me the wrong way the whole time - to me, the Blood Ravens may have some passing coincidences but were never destined to be of Thousands Sons stock. This style of reference doesn't really fly with me, to be honest.

 

Regarding DoW I, you and me both. It's what brought me into 40k, and why I began as, and will always be, a DIYer, or a Liberite to use the board's term.

 

Looks like I'm the grizzled old veteran here, then. I was a Second Edition inductee.

 

The more description you can give me, the better. I could use a brief when drawing them both. As long as nothing doesn't particularly sit well with me, I'll let you know.

 

Well, then. Perhaps that might be something to do this weekend. My vague recollection of Dorn is that he's host to the Destroyer Hive, if I recall it correctly at all, and my mental image is of a gaunt, lanky figure, swaddled with robes and chainmail (wherever remnants of his old armour doesn't cover). Short of that, I'll have to drag a net through our old material and see if I can provide more.

 

Here's my idea. How about getting rid of the whole notion of a "Founding"? Instead of the first twenty Legions being the First Founding, and the newer Chapters being founded in waves. Instead, each Successor Legion is simply numbered, so if it's the 666th Legion to be founded, then it's the DCLXVI Legion. And then given a name and a colour scheme, if they don't have one already.

I agree with the notion that distinct 'Foundings' can be avoided. More on this in my reply earlier.

 

Yeah, it's hard to realistically say whether fifty years of change (much less 500) since the timeframe of the Horus Heresy, in a universe where the HH still hasn't happened yet, which named characters would still be alive and which ones would be killed off in some particular battle. Hence why I promoted Aeonid Thiel to Captain, and Remus was (at least temporarily) a Chapter Master at one point while the previous one was missing or presumed KIA.

 

I also want to try and establish new versions of the Warrior Lodges and the Mournival into the Dark Angels and Ultramarines in the 50 years leading up to the Heresy. The Dark Angels could have "Inner Circles" like they do in canon 40k. Which could then spread to the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and possibly others. I'm just not sure about the name, or how to make it plausible that Guilliman would approve of the idea or how he could be persuaded to. Especially coming from a rival like the Lion. Or does it not really matter?

 

Aeonid Thiel I thought about making a close advisor to Guilliman before he's killed on Ichar IV (an event which is the Isstvaan III of the Guilliman Heresy). So he's an equivalent of a Mournival member, others possibly being Gage, Ventanus and... Verus Caspean? Phratus Auguston? I dunno.

 

Since these are all named characters that already exist, what about we work out a new character, someone who would have been a lowly Legionnaire at the start of M31, or a newer recruit from the Five Hundred Worlds, a byproduct of Guilliman's ruthless recruiting. Someone who is essentially the Ultramarines reincarnation of Abaddon, and ends up commanding the Ultramarines 1st Company during the Heresy. He could wear a big badass suit of Terminator armor (Cataphractii or Tartaros or whatever) and be in charge of the Suzerain Invictarii (Drakus Gorod was the leader during the Horus Heresy, we could just have him killed off.)

 

For the time discrepancy, dialling back the Heresy from the mid thirty first millennium to the beginning is probably for the best. Five hundred years is far too much of a break with canon.

 

As for warrior lodges or an equivalent thereof... I don't think we need to be making such counterparts in our heresy. The insinuation of the Lodges in canon was a direct attempt by the Word Bearers to corrupt each Legion from within. The fall of each of our Primarchs and Legions has been explored already without the addition of Lodge-analogues to help them on their way. This particular detail can be left at the wayside, imo.  

 

 

I think as far as an Ultramarine Mournival is concerned, at least one canon Legion that I can think of had a roughly similar concept: The Iron Warriors and their Trident.  

 

As a suggestion, perhaps a 'confidant council' of select individuals (which would not be limited to four members) could be used. Maybe call it the 'Tacitus'. 

 

So, what about the Ordos? The Ordo Malleus/Xenos/Hereticus? Who takes care of those roles?

 

The Hereticus, iirc, is kinda encapsulated by the Investigatus proper, while the Ordo Xenos is not required at all with the Legions being at large and undivided. The Malleus however? They are a part of the Agnostica. 

[Skalpynock]

Don't the Ultramarines Tetrarchs already cover the need for a Mournival-analogue?

[GuillimanHeretic]

 

However, it has occurred to me that rather than have direct successors, I think the idea of raising a new Legion whole cloth from fresh gene-seed intriguing. Why have a descendant of a Legion when the capability and motive is there to craft a brand new one? And what would the original Legions think of the newer ones? Food for thought, at least.

 

 

 

 

That's a good idea, though it'll be interesting to explain to other hobbyists exactly what those Legions are. "This isn't just another Space Marine Chapter. It's a Legion that only exists in this specific alternate-heresy timeline, where the Emperor isn't tied to the Golden Throne."

 

I think it'd be good to keep both options open, especially if there's an idea for a Legion that could only work as successors of an existing one.

 

 

And here we delve into unexplored territory. Personally, I'd either break from canon and craft an entirely new character or... give the position to my favourite character from the very first FW HH black book: Crysos Morturg. I mean, I really want to do something of note with him, so why not this, eh?

 

 

Wait, who...? A Death Guard Legionnaire? As the Hand or as a Knights-Errant member? Though having info on him fifty years after the HH is refreshing, gives some idea of what he could be doing in this for once.

 

In regard to the the Grey Knights, they would not exist in the GH 'verse. There is sufficiently differing circumstances that they have little reason to crop up here. Inter-Legion kill-teams, however, does strike a pretty cool chord. Something to expand upon later, I reckon.

 

 

I kinda figured instead of having Grey Knights who are silver because of Garro, have inter-Legion kill-teams who are silver because of Ventanus, but without the secrecy or forgotten past. It'd be a proud tradition.

 

 

I find myself here in full agreement with Conn. The initial hints given out by the powers that be kinda rubbed me the wrong way the whole time - to me, the Blood Ravens may have some passing coincidences but were never destined to be of Thousands Sons stock. This style of reference doesn't really fly with me, to be honest.

 

 

Oh well, it's mostly a cosmetic change, and it's probably now tied to the switched out fate of Corax and his Legion somehow.

 

 

 

Well, then. Perhaps that might be something to do this weekend. My vague recollection of Dorn is that he's host to the Destroyer Hive, if I recall it correctly at all, and my mental image is of a gaunt, lanky figure, swaddled with robes and chainmail (wherever remnants of his old armour doesn't cover). Short of that, I'll have to drag a net through our old material and see if I can provide more.

 

I seem to remember him being portrayed in Terminator armor and with a beard once, now in the FW artwork he looks more like H.P. Baxxter from Scooter than anything else.

 

As for Vulkan and the Salamanders in general, I've been trying to figure out the colour scheme, in case GW releases a bunch of Emperor's Children models in the near future I can use for conversions with the existing Salamanders stuff on FW. Instead of simply making them pink or purple, I thought maybe exaggerating the colours, a bright orange with a serpentine green, and with random parts of the armor black and flames painted over them. Something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/NhH3TgW.jpg

 

 

 

For the time discrepancy, dialling back the Heresy from the mid thirty first millennium to the beginning is probably for the best. Five hundred years is far too much of a break with canon.

 

As for warrior lodges or an equivalent thereof... I don't think we need to be making such counterparts in our heresy. The insinuation of the Lodges in canon was a direct attempt by the Word Bearers to corrupt each Legion from within. The fall of each of our Primarchs and Legions has been explored already without the addition of Lodge-analogues to help them on their way. This particular detail can be left at the wayside, imo.  

 

 

I think as far as an Ultramarine Mournival is concerned, at least one canon Legion that I can think of had a roughly similar concept: The Iron Warriors and their Trident.  

 

As a suggestion, perhaps a 'confidant council' of select individuals (which would not be limited to four members) could be used. Maybe call it the 'Tacitus'. 

 

 

Yeah, still having an Inner Circle suits the Dark Angels.

 

If the Tacitus have different roles for different members, like the Mournival's four temperaments, then Aeonid Thiel's role would have to be something to do with lateral thinking, thinking outside the square. I'm not sure about Ventanus or the others though, my interpretation of Ventanus in this universe is basically the "Sanguine" or Tarik Torgaddon equivalent. Think Vash the Stampede.

 

There isn't enough people like him in canon 40k, and it's my way of injecting some Noblebright (or Nobledark at least) into the setting. It's probably nothing like his canon counterpart though.

Don't the Ultramarines Tetrarchs already cover the need for a Mournival-analogue?

 

Maybe, but they'd be spread out over 500 worlds, not Guilliman's most senior commanders at his side wherever he goes. Wouldn't they...?

Edited August 4, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[SixOfOne]

@GuillimanHeretic

 

I think it's great that you've made a concerted effort to 'revive' this project and would like to thank you for it.

 

I do feel that having Corax and the Raven Guard ultimately remain loyal as per the original draft is better. Having him use questionable and psychic methods to rebuild the legion I think is fine based on his desire to take revenge on the traitors and rebuild his legion to the point where they're massively overstrength. I would change it to having Corax kill his Chief Librarian after his admittance of guilt (If Corax wasn't close to him then there's no real reason to spare him and in canon is all too aware of the danger of Psykers, which is why he votes to censure Magnus) and then perhaps ordering a purge of the previously created mutants without destroying the research. This makes the character of Corax less similar to canon by having be more vengeful and less consumed by self-doubt. He will have already lain siege to his homeworld by this point. An interesting idea might be to have Russ meet Corax after the Namm massacre in a similar fashion to how Corax meets Russ at Yarant in canon which helps to steer him along this road.

 

By having the Raven Guard fall as well I feel this Heresy becomes too similar to the majority of other 'alternate heresies' where it's just the canon loyal legions turning traitor instead.

 

With regards to the colouring of the Salamanders, I would overemphasise the colours as Slaanesh is all about excess. Have the green be so bright it's almost neon with a similar orange. Yeah, it would look terrible but I feel that that's kinda the point of Slaanesh. Apart from that I like the scheme you've created for them.

 

The Tetrachs in my mind fit the idea of the Mournival better. In canon the mournival are Horus's most trusted advisors and commanders, so it would make sense for Guilliman to delegate parts of the 500 worlds to their command. They would be together for a lot of the time regardless, so I don't feel the need to create a whole new body.

 

Crysos Morturg was a Death Guard Librarian and lieutentant who survived Istvaan III and went on to tell the Council of Terra what happened there. He's one of the only people to actually survive and escape the extermination. I feel he could be a good fit for the 'Hand of the Sigillite' role, although why he'd be chosen for this is a different question entirely. Maybe he's been under the command of Typhon and escapes the event that causes the loss of Mortarion and Typhon to report this to Terra?

 

Instead of inter-legion kill teams, how about we have the re-introduction of the Consul-Obsequirai role. These were pretty much space marine commissars who held the power of life and death over their brothers. They were necessary in the early VI Legion. The fact that we don't have the splitting of the legions could justify the re-introduction as they would be more important as you really don't want corruption in Legion sized forces.

 

Also, does anyone have any ideas regarding other forces like the Legio Custodes bearing in mind we don't have Magnus' Folly existing in this timeline? (as far as I know). Do we want them to only show up at the Siege of Terra and Siege of Macragge and simply limit the focus to the Legions or do we want to expand on the roles of the other military forces?

[Olis]

 

However, it has occurred to me that rather than have direct successors, I think the idea of raising a new Legion whole cloth from fresh gene-seed intriguing. Why have a descendant of a Legion when the capability and motive is there to craft a brand new one? And what would the original Legions think of the newer ones? Food for thought, at least.

 That's a good idea, though it'll be interesting to explain to other hobbyists exactly what those Legions are. "This isn't just another Space Marine Chapter. It's a Legion that only exists in this specific alternate-heresy timeline, where the Emperor isn't tied to the Golden Throne."

 

I think it'd be good to keep both options open, especially if there's an idea for a Legion that could only work as successors of an existing one.

 

 

Then perhaps we'll let both options remain, for now, and see what works. With a view to finalising the idea at a later point, of course.

 

 

In regard to the the Grey Knights, they would not exist in the GH 'verse. There is sufficiently differing circumstances that they have little reason to crop up here. Inter-Legion kill-teams, however, does strike a pretty cool chord. Something to expand upon later, I reckon.

 

I kinda figured instead of having Grey Knights who are silver because of Garro, have inter-Legion kill-teams who are silver because of Ventanus, but without the secrecy or forgotten past. It'd be a proud tradition.

 

 

Personally, I am unconvinced of the connection between Garro and the Grey Knights (evidence to the contrary is always welcome), but that is completely by-the-by. I'm wary of making connections to canon just because it is easy - for example, making anything silver because what they replaced in canon was also silver. In my opinion, kill teams and the like will bear heraldry that makes sense at the time. Now, that said, this is a fluid area due to it's undeveloped nature. We'll see what we can see.

 

 

Well, then. Perhaps that might be something to do this weekend. My vague recollection of Dorn is that he's host to the Destroyer Hive, if I recall it correctly at all, and my mental image is of a gaunt, lanky figure, swaddled with robes and chainmail (wherever remnants of his old armour doesn't cover). Short of that, I'll have to drag a net through our old material and see if I can provide more.

I seem to remember him being portrayed in Terminator armor and with a beard once, now in the FW artwork he looks more like H.P. Baxxter from Scooter than anything else.

 

As for Vulkan and the Salamanders in general, I've been trying to figure out the colour scheme, in case GW releases a bunch of Emperor's Children models in the near future I can use for conversions with the existing Salamanders stuff on FW. Instead of simply making them pink or purple, I thought maybe exaggerating the colours, a bright orange with a serpentine green, and with random parts of the armor black and flames painted over them. Something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/NhH3TgW.jpg

 

 

I think moving to extremes is the name of the game with Slaanesh and the Salamanders. So, the brighter the green, the more obnoxious the orange, the better (I like that illustrative example btw). As for Dorn... oh yeah. I still have to look up any description of him, if there is any.

 

 

Don't the Ultramarines Tetrarchs already cover the need for a Mournival-analogue?

 

Maybe, but they'd be spread out over 500 worlds, not Guilliman's most senior commanders at his side wherever he goes. Wouldn't they...?

 

 

As I understood them, the Tetrarchs served as co-rulers of Ultramar, each governing a particular world of importance. They serve as counsel when they happened to be in the same place as Guilliman. But permanent counsel? That's something the Tacitus can give.

 

@GuillimanHeretic

 

I think it's great that you've made a concerted effort to 'revive' this project and would like to thank you for it.

 

And I too. Two years of inactivity (not including the personal discourses I have had with Conn in the meantime) can leave a project cold. Inert. The express interest shown has certainly thawed this stasis - jolted in into active territory once again.

 

I do feel that having Corax and the Raven Guard ultimately remain loyal as per the original draft is better. Having him use questionable and psychic methods to rebuild the legion I think is fine based on his desire to take revenge on the traitors and rebuild his legion to the point where they're massively overstrength. I would change it to having Corax kill his Chief Librarian after his admittance of guilt (If Corax wasn't close to him then there's no real reason to spare him and in canon is all too aware of the danger of Psykers, which is why he votes to censure Magnus) and then perhaps ordering a purge of the previously created mutants without destroying the research. This makes the character of Corax less similar to canon by having be more vengeful and less consumed by self-doubt. He will have already lain siege to his homeworld by this point. An interesting idea might be to have Russ meet Corax after the Namm massacre in a similar fashion to how Corax meets Russ at Yarant in canon which helps to steer him along this road.

This, now this is intriguing. Doing something different with Corax may be what he needs to make him our own Corax and not merely a passenger to an alternative canon. We do indeed begin him on a new direction with Namn - a chance meeting with Russ afterwards could be another moment to redefine our Corax - and continue that with his successful implementation of the Raptors. 

 

Incidentally, these Raptoris Astartes would end up being the next generation that would not become a thing in canon for ten thousand years with the Primaris. These would be the 'astartes 2.0' that we've mentioned from time to time. They are the Daft Punk generation - Stronger. Better. Faster. 

 

I'm getting a little off-track here. This Chief-Librarian (maybe Hriak? Maybe someone else?) has had fifty extra years to develop as opposed to canon. He has seen the denial of the Warmaster role to both the Lion and Guilliman. He has witnessed the Nikaean Council and the Emperor's Verdict personally. He remembers where he was when Horus died on Davin. So what exactly would motivate him to do what he had, earning him the ire and judgement of his gene-father?

 

By having the Raven Guard fall as well I feel this Heresy becomes too similar to the majority of other 'alternate heresies' where it's just the canon loyal legions turning traitor instead.

 

Exactly my thoughts throughout, from day one. Having a mixture of canon loyalists and traitors be our alternate loyalists paints our heresy differently from some of the others*. While the traitorous astartes in our heresy are 95% loyalist in canon, they are not a mirror of the disposition of forces in canon. Incidentally, our own rebellion, without the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines manpower to carry the numbers, would be in serious trouble what with numbering only around five Legions in total (the Iron Hands fall later and the White Scars break from everyone in their own secession). It will be a credit to Guilliman that his war will not see his own side crushed within months.

 

*This was begun at a time when the only major alternate heresy around was the Dornian Heresy, with many 'minor' attempts merely swapping the sides around.

 

With regards to the colouring of the Salamanders, I would overemphasise the colours as Slaanesh is all about excess. Have the green be so bright it's almost neon with a similar orange. Yeah, it would look terrible but I feel that that's kinda the point of Slaanesh. Apart from that I like the scheme you've created for them.

 

Agreed! In fact... it's pretty much my own thoughts on the matter, as written earlier in this reply. :tu:

 

The Tetrachs in my mind fit the idea of the Mournival better. In canon the mournival are Horus's most trusted advisors and commanders, so it would make sense for Guilliman to delegate parts of the 500 worlds to their command. They would be together for a lot of the time regardless, so I don't feel the need to create a whole new body.

Hmm. I may have to mull over this whole 'Tacitus' idea some more. My other thoughts on this are further up in this post.

 

Crysos Morturg was a Death Guard Librarian and lieutentant who survived Istvaan III and went on to tell the Council of Terra what happened there. He's one of the only people to actually survive and escape the extermination. I feel he could be a good fit for the 'Hand of the Sigillite' role, although why he'd be chosen for this is a different question entirely. Maybe he's been under the command of Typhon and escapes the event that causes the loss of Mortarion and Typhon to report this to Terra?

The man is a survivor, through and through. The exact nature of his survival from the loss of the Reaper's Blade may be something worth exploring, if he was there. Perhaps he is the one to personally bring the news of Mortarion's loss to Terra and, for what reason I don't know, he is inducted as the Hand of the Sigilitte. The how will be tricky but I believe he has the chops to do Garro's job.

 

Instead of inter-legion kill teams, how about we have the re-introduction of the Consul-Obsequirai role. These were pretty much space marine commissars who held the power of life and death over their brothers. They were necessary in the early VI Legion. The fact that we don't have the splitting of the legions could justify the re-introduction as they would be more important as you really don't want corruption in Legion sized forces.

I'm not overly familiar with the 'Consul-Obsequirai'. Though, then again, I am slowly but surely getting ever more behind on my HH literature. Can you point me to them? Are they in Inferno?

 

Also, does anyone have any ideas regarding other forces like the Legio Custodes bearing in mind we don't have Magnus' Folly existing in this timeline? (as far as I know). Do we want them to only show up at the Siege of Terra and Siege of Macragge and simply limit the focus to the Legions or do we want to expand on the roles of the other military forces?

 

The Custodes. While it would initially seem like me and Conn are the only two destined to finalise input for this project, we'd like input from others. Fresh perspectives. So... what would you do with them? 

[Conn Eremon]

I'm less inclined to think the Ultramarines need a Mournival equivalent, as the Tetrarchs fulfill the role well enough already. The differences between the two, and there are quite a few, are a good thing that should be retained. It's the difference between the Ultramarines and the Sons of Horus. Guilliman's primary goals was a self-sufficient empire that his own sons would have a place in, and the Tetrarchs are an extension of that. Horus, on the other hand, concentrated himself and his sons into the pinpoint force of the one, forever on the offensive. The "speartip" assault and the Mournival are essentially the same strategy, one simply being off of the battlefield.

 

The concept of the Tacitus is an interesting one, don't get me wrong, but I think trying to recreate a Mournival within the Ultramarines is a step away from their own character and toward being a mirror of canon. The Ultramarines are a replacement of the Sons of Horus, true, but that doesn't mean we should make the Ultramarines more like the Sons of Horus. If that makes any sense.

 

The Tetrarchs are not always at Guilliman's side, but rather embody his virtues and authority across his domain. In the Guilliman Heresy, this domain is greatly extended, and a greater distance among the Tetrarchs would be a given. It's not just the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar, it's most of the Imperium. Following the death of Guilliman at the hands of the Emperor, it's these Tetrarchs (and newer additions over the course of 10,000 years) that continue to hold his authority over the remnants of their lord's sons, long after the Ultramarines as a Legion have stopped being truth.

[Olis]

Well said, brother. I now realise that, yes, an Ultramarine Mournival would be unnecessary. Still, chewing the cud can be good for the grey matter. ;)

 

As for Dorn's appearance...

 

 

I have this mental image of a Dorn looking somewhat zombie-like but absolutely massive, as in dreadknight massive if not larger still, striding the battlefield scooping up foes and biting off their heads, Ozzie Osborne style (holding the victim with both hands like you would hold a large burger). Kind of a zombie-giant clad in tons of armour. 

[Olisredan 30th April 2012]

 

 

I've seen a few Nurgle ascendants who were basically sentient plagues. They controlled who they infected into a sort of hive mind. I could see Nurgle infecting Dorn in such a way, leading to his corruption and fall. The daemonic intelligence and Dorn's conscious fuse into a single being, so that Dorn's true 'self' ceases to be his primarch body but the disease infecting it. His body becomes a separate entity that is animated by this Dorn-Daemon virus, rather than being Dorn. So as this monstrous thing decays and corrupts and breaks down, the Dorn-Daemon replenishes it by devouring his enemies (or allies), or through surgical means. The Dorn entity strives to keep his original Primarch appearance, but by now he looks exactly as you describe it, with a little Frankenstein mixed in. You could say that this daemonic plague is the Destroyer Hive that the canon Typhus has, only instead of it being a gift for service well done, it's Nurgle's heavy-handed attempt to simply take Dorn, resulting in an amalgamation of the two. That'd be absolutely horrifying, seeing that massive, shambling figure slowly working its way past barricades, fortifications, walls, what have you, without breaking a single stride as it simply wades through them, booming, overlapping voices issuing from it, like a thousand voices whispering the same words of doom. Its corroded, clogged chainsword seeming to literally chew its way through enemies as clouds of miasma waft from it. Those who touch the gaseous emanations die quickly. But their second death is never so quick. How does one stop the dead when they are animated by a Daemon Primarch's very essence?

[Cormac Airt 30th April 2012]

 

 

The miasma could come from the engine running the blades, maybe... I dunno, I think making the exhaust from the daemon-chainsword deadly would be pretty cool.

[Olisredan 30th April 2012]

 

 

For the Imperial Fists, I think we can simply modify that clenched fist. Open the fist up so that it becomes a palm with curled fingers, revealing three weeping wounds in the palm, like infected bullet holes. Neatly turns the clenched fist of Dorn into a very zombie-like gesture, with a Nurgle reference within.

 

[Cormac Airt 2nd October 2012]

 

 

The Plague Fists could even adorn themselves (see what I did there?) with disembodied hands, for good measure.

[Olisredan 9th October 2012]

 

 

Rogal Dorn - The Monolithic Dead. The Imperial Fists are the implacability of death itself. Not the cold, clinical, metaphysical aspect of the Death Lord, but the harsh reality of decay and corruption. In the Death Guard, death comes to you. In the Imperial Fists, you come to death. It builds its impenetrable walls, releases its potent gasses, and waits for the living and the dead to come to it. They are the ultimate lurking horror, that of the corrupted core that can tear down all that was built upon it. The horror of the inevitability of a death that is no release. 

[Cormac Airt 14th October 2012]

As for the 'Dornian Hive' (rather than the Destroyer Hive):

 

 

As for Alexis Pox, I don't know. Current rendition of the Nurgle Fists is that it is Dorn and it is Sigismund. They have their own plague hive consciouses and they use them to animate and bond their individual forces, the Imperial Fists and the Crusader Host. However, when the Dornian Hive matures more fully and grows to its truest strength, it's able to detach portions of it more readily and without any danger of creating permanent separations like what occured with Sigismund and gang. We can keep Alexis Pox as one of Dorn's favored commanders, who regularly branches out on his own, though forever working under Dorn's direct gaze thanks to the Hive's ever-constant presence. So like with the Black Death, we can keep the Red Plague as a sometimes-used title or an oft-used descriptor.

[Cormac Airt 3rd June 2013]

 

And this. Other details or quotes may be somewhere. 

[SixOfOne]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do feel that having Corax and the Raven Guard ultimately remain loyal as per the original draft is better. Having him use questionable and psychic methods to rebuild the legion I think is fine based on his desire to take revenge on the traitors and rebuild his legion to the point where they're massively overstrength. I would change it to having Corax kill his Chief Librarian after his admittance of guilt (If Corax wasn't close to him then there's no real reason to spare him and in canon is all too aware of the danger of Psykers, which is why he votes to censure Magnus) and then perhaps ordering a purge of the previously created mutants without destroying the research. This makes the character of Corax less similar to canon by having be more vengeful and less consumed by self-doubt. He will have already lain siege to his homeworld by this point. An interesting idea might be to have Russ meet Corax after the Namm massacre in a similar fashion to how Corax meets Russ at Yarant in canon which helps to steer him along this road.

This, now this is intriguing. Doing something different with Corax may be what he needs to make him our own Corax and not merely a passenger to an alternative canon. We do indeed begin him on a new direction with Namn - a chance meeting with Russ afterwards could be another moment to redefine our Corax - and continue that with his successful implementation of the Raptors. 

 

Incidentally, these Raptoris Astartes would end up being the next generation that would not become a thing in canon for ten thousand years with the Primaris. These would be the 'astartes 2.0' that we've mentioned from time to time. They are the Daft Punk generation - Stronger. Better. Faster. 

 

I'm getting a little off-track here. This Chief-Librarian (maybe Hriak? Maybe someone else?) has had fifty extra years to develop as opposed to canon. He has seen the denial of the Warmaster role to both the Lion and Guilliman. He has witnessed the Nikaean Council and the Emperor's Verdict personally. He remembers where he was when Horus died on Davin. So what exactly would motivate him to do what he had, earning him the ire and judgement of his gene-father?

 

By having the Raven Guard fall as well I feel this Heresy becomes too similar to the majority of other 'alternate heresies' where it's just the canon loyal legions turning traitor instead.

 
Exactly my thoughts throughout, from day one. Having a mixture of canon loyalists and traitors be our alternate loyalists paints our heresy differently from some of the others*. While the traitorous astartes in our heresy are 95% loyalist in canon, they are not a mirror of the disposition of forces in canon. Incidentally, our own rebellion, without the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines manpower to carry the numbers, would be in serious trouble what with numbering only around five Legions in total (the Iron Hands fall later and the White Scars break from everyone in their own secession). It will be a credit to Guilliman that his war will not see his own side crushed within months.
 

*This was begun at a time when the only major alternate heresy around was the Dornian Heresy, with many 'minor' attempts merely swapping the sides around.

 

With regards to the colouring of the Salamanders, I would overemphasise the colours as Slaanesh is all about excess. Have the green be so bright it's almost neon with a similar orange. Yeah, it would look terrible but I feel that that's kinda the point of Slaanesh. Apart from that I like the scheme you've created for them.

 
Agreed! In fact... it's pretty much my own thoughts on the matter, as written earlier in this reply.
 

The Tetrachs in my mind fit the idea of the Mournival better. In canon the mournival are Horus's most trusted advisors and commanders, so it would make sense for Guilliman to delegate parts of the 500 worlds to their command. They would be together for a lot of the time regardless, so I don't feel the need to create a whole new body.

Hmm. I may have to mull over this whole 'Tacitus' idea some more. My other thoughts on this are further up in this post.

 

Crysos Morturg was a Death Guard Librarian and lieutentant who survived Istvaan III and went on to tell the Council of Terra what happened there. He's one of the only people to actually survive and escape the extermination. I feel he could be a good fit for the 'Hand of the Sigillite' role, although why he'd be chosen for this is a different question entirely. Maybe he's been under the command of Typhon and escapes the event that causes the loss of Mortarion and Typhon to report this to Terra?

The man is a survivor, through and through. The exact nature of his survival from the loss of the Reaper's Blade may be something worth exploring, if he was there. Perhaps he is the one to personally bring the news of Mortarion's loss to Terra and, for what reason I don't know, he is inducted as the Hand of the Sigilitte. The how will be tricky but I believe he has the chops to do Garro's job.
 

Instead of inter-legion kill teams, how about we have the re-introduction of the Consul-Obsequirai role. These were pretty much space marine commissars who held the power of life and death over their brothers. They were necessary in the early VI Legion. The fact that we don't have the splitting of the legions could justify the re-introduction as they would be more important as you really don't want corruption in Legion sized forces.

I'm not overly familiar with the 'Consul-Obsequirai'. Though, then again, I am slowly but surely getting ever more behind on my HH literature. Can you point me to them? Are they in Inferno?

 

Also, does anyone have any ideas regarding other forces like the Legio Custodes bearing in mind we don't have Magnus' Folly existing in this timeline? (as far as I know). Do we want them to only show up at the Siege of Terra and Siege of Macragge and simply limit the focus to the Legions or do we want to expand on the roles of the other military forces?

 

The Custodes. While it would initially seem like me and Conn are the only two destined to finalise input for this project, we'd like input from others. Fresh perspectives. So... what would you do with them? 

 

 

Yes, the Consul-Obsequirai is from Inferno. Basically the early Space Wolf Legion was much more like the World Eaters and they required actual disciplinary officers in order to keep them in line. They're effectively more extreme Chaplains.

 

I personally like the idea of Morturg being the one to tell Malcador of the fate of Mortarion. If we're using him as a Garro type character then we can have the journey through the warp be really difficult, thus allowing him his moment to shine in this alternate canon. The man is hard as nails and this needs to be shown.

 

I personally like the idea of Russ 'saving' Corax. Maybe after the Namm massacre, the surviving Raven Guard flee the system whilst hounded by the Salamanders. The Raven Guard ships are faster and stealthier (Obviously), but they are worn down and being slowly picked off by the superior firepower of the Salamanders. It eventually reaches the point where Corax realises they cannot flee any longer and he learns that the route to Terra is currently being blocked by the forces of the Iron Warriors who view the Raven Guard as potential traitors (If the Battle of Gate 42 still happens, then this works quite well as Corax and Perturabo don't exactly get along). Corax decides to retreat further into a system that is more favourable to his tactics in order to reap the largest toll on the traitors. The world chosen is highly mountainous and has an elliptical orbit. Before making planetfall, it is discovered that the Space Wolves are returning to Terra after a punitive campaign with a small contigent of Thousand Sons.

 

The Salamanders begin to land on the planet, and Corax sends one last message to his Brother. The Raven Guard acquit themselves well, but their numbers are far too depleted by this point to really halt the traitors advance. Corax, by this point, is becoming increasingly consumed by rage to the point that he is beginning to act more like his sons that he exiled as opposed to the Liberator that most know him by. After weeks of guerilla attacks and with the Raven Guard becoming more unhinged and their supplies basically depleted the Space Wolves arrive. When Russ meets Corax, he finds a brother so consumed by rage that they almost come to blows after Corax learns that Vulkan was not even present on the planet. What the brothers spoke of once Corax had been calmed and safely aboard the Hrafknel is between them, however most records show that Corax returned to terra and while the grudge was lessened decidedly after the Heresy it was often whispered in secret that he never entirely forgave the Iron Warriors for refusing them when they needed it most. 

 

The Raven Guard Chief Librarian could have been tainted by Chaos for a long time (Tzeentch is all for elaborate schemes), and after Corax confronts him the Chief Librarian could show him visions of something like the scene from Master of Mankind where The Emperor is talking to Land about Angron. However, due to everyone seeing The Emperor differently Corax sees a completely different view than what his Chief Librarian and Arkan Land do. So, instead of challenging his belief of The Emperor it instead reinforces it. So, he executes the Chief Librarian and the Raptors that are too mutated immediately. However, determined not to let The Emperor's dream die he keeps the research and uses it to replenish his forces even though it is highly questionable, whilst taking the view that it may be necessary to purge them later. So, while he has plenty of new marines he is dangerously low on Veteran marines to train them. After much deliberation he recalls the exiled Terran XIX and begins to try to combine his views and that of the Terrans into a reborn XIX legion.

 

 

If that was awful, then please just say. I'm more of an establishing the setting person than the details. I also feel that I may have pushed Corax too far away from how he is in canon. I still feel that he needs to retain some of the tragedy of his canon incarnation. GuillimanHeretic suggested PTSD in his own version which could be an interesting way to integrate this.

 

Regarding the Custodes, we need a reason for them not to be too involved in the Heresy if Inferno and Master of Mankind is anything to go by. However, I feel that keeping it simple is best. How about we have the Imperial Webway project reach a point where simply building new tunnels is not viable and they have to being to expand through, and clear out long abandoned parts of the Eldar Webway. Obviously, some of these tunnels would be demon infested and would need to be purged. This depletes the Legio Custodes, but not to the extent that it does in canon. So, by the time the Siege of Terra occurs they are able to take a more active role and help to balance out the fact that the traitors on Terra are much more numerous than the defenders (Attackers include Ultramarines and DA right, and I imagine that they're probably more organised than the traitors on terra in canon). I don't feel the need to massively complicate it, but we need a reason other than 'the Emperor is busy' as to why He doesn't muster the 10,000 and slaughter the Ultramarines etc. as soon as they're able.  

Edited August 5, 2017 by SixOfOne

[Nomus Sardauk]

[SixOfOne]

 

That was awful, but I love it.

[Olis]

Yes, the Consul-Obsequirai is from Inferno. Basically the early Space Wolf Legion was much more like the World Eaters and they required actual disciplinary officers in order to keep them in line. They're effectively more extreme Chaplains.

 

Damn. I'm going to have to dig out my copy and get reading again.

 

I personally like the idea of Morturg being the one to tell Malcador of the fate of Mortarion. If we're using him as a Garro type character then we can have the journey through the warp be really difficult, thus allowing him his moment to shine in this alternate canon. The man is hard as nails and this needs to be shown.

Iirc, the loss of Mortarion and the Reaper's Blade is as much an enigma as it is a tragedy. Or, at least, in-universe it is. If this remains the case, then Morturg's revelations on that final flight will be from a personal perspective and likely won't include experience of what happens on the bridge. However, his own escape could very well be because he was aboard an escort of the Reaper's Blade instead. This may provide enough distance so that we can maintain a certain level of mystery while giving a first-hand account of what apparently went down.

 

I personally like the idea of Russ 'saving' Corax. Maybe after the Namm massacre, the surviving Raven Guard flee the system whilst hounded by the Salamanders. The Raven Guard ships are faster and stealthier (Obviously), but they are worn down and being slowly picked off by the superior firepower of the Salamanders. It eventually reaches the point where Corax realises they cannot flee any longer and he learns that the route to Terra is currently being blocked by the forces of the Iron Warriors who view the Raven Guard as potential traitors (If the Battle of Gate 42 still happens, then this works quite well as Corax and Perturabo don't exactly get along). Corax decides to retreat further into a system that is more favourable to his tactics in order to reap the largest toll on the traitors. The world chosen is highly mountainous and has an elliptical orbit. Before making planetfall, it is discovered that the Space Wolves are returning to Terra after a punitive campaign with a small contigent of Thousand Sons.

 

The Salamanders begin to land on the planet, and Corax sends one last message to his Brother. The Raven Guard acquit themselves well, but their numbers are far too depleted by this point to really halt the traitors advance. Corax, by this point, is becoming increasingly consumed by rage to the point that he is beginning to act more like his sons that he exiled as opposed to the Liberator that most know him by. After weeks of guerilla attacks and with the Raven Guard becoming more unhinged and their supplies basically depleted the Space Wolves arrive. When Russ meets Corax, he finds a brother so consumed by rage that they almost come to blows after Corax learns that Vulkan was not even present on the planet. What the brothers spoke of once Corax had been calmed and safely aboard the Hrafknel is between them, however most records show that Corax returned to terra and while the grudge was lessened decidedly after the Heresy it was often whispered in secret that he never entirely forgave the Iron Warriors for refusing them when they needed it most. 

 

The Raven Guard Chief Librarian could have been tainted by Chaos for a long time (Tzeentch is all for elaborate schemes), and after Corax confronts him the Chief Librarian could show him visions of something like the scene from Master of Mankind where The Emperor is talking to Land about Angron. However, due to everyone seeing The Emperor differently Corax sees a completely different view than what his Chief Librarian and Arkan Land do. So, instead of challenging his belief of The Emperor it instead reinforces it. So, he executes the Chief Librarian and the Raptors that are too mutated immediately. However, determined not to let The Emperor's dream die he keeps the research and uses it to replenish his forces even though it is highly questionable, whilst taking the view that it may be necessary to purge them later. So, while he has plenty of new marines he is dangerously low on Veteran marines to train them. After much deliberation he recalls the exiled Terran XIX and begins to try to combine his views and that of the Terrans into a reborn XIX legion.

 

 

If that was awful, then please just say. I'm more of an establishing the setting person than the details. I also feel that I may have pushed Corax too far away from how he is in canon. I still feel that he needs to retain some of the tragedy of his canon incarnation. GuillimanHeretic suggested PTSD in his own version which could be an interesting way to integrate this.

 

Okay. Riffing off of this, I think events could occur like this:

 

The Raven Guard are ambushed and massacred at Namn. This is a well established fact at this point. The battle itself could last hours... or it could last weeks. Whatever is the case, when the Raven Guard quit the planet, their fleet and their ground forces are much reduced. Now, rather than landing somewhere else within the Namn system, after some supposedly promised aid from Perturabo fails to turn up, the Raven Guard are instead caught and boarded. These are what Corax might assume to be his last hours in action, with his sons dying by the dozen and his ships are, one by one, crippled, seized or destroyed outright.

 

This is when Russ arrives. Russ finds Corax an enraged animal, burnt and weary by the repeated boardings from Salamanders squads. In his exhausted fury, Corax attempts to slay Russ but is easily bested. The bridge of the Shadow of the Emperor is in a ruinous state with corpses of the crew, the fallen Salamanders and Corax's own honour guard. The rest of the ship, hell, the rest of the Raven Guard flotilla is in little better shape. The Salamanders in-system are either destroyed or forced to flee from this new Legion presence, fresh to the fight. 

 

After that... well, from the part about the Hrafknel onwards could be roughly what would happen. The Chief Librarian would be corrupt (by Tzeentch) and attempt to sway Corax with a false vision - when exactly that is... could be on Terra, could be afterwards on Deliverence. Corax sees through it and executes the man with his bare hands, Gregor Clegane-style. With the reduction of the old Legion, and the swelling of the ranks by the Raptoris, the Predation Fleets are recalled*. In effect, the Raven Guard of canon are changed to a Legion of bitter and brutal veterans, leading entire squads - nay, entire companies - of Raptoris. The character of the Legion will have changed. They'd be more murderous. Less humane. Less measured in their actions. They will have become more of a wild card amongst the loyalists. 

 

* It may not be the case that Gate 42 ever happened in this 'verse. In that case, the Predation Fleets would need another motive to leave - but that'll be something for later.

 

How does that sound?

 

Regarding the Custodes, we need a reason for them not to be too involved in the Heresy if Inferno and Master of Mankind is anything to go by. However, I feel that keeping it simple is best. How about we have the Imperial Webway project reach a point where simply building new tunnels is not viable and they have to being to expand through, and clear out long abandoned parts of the Eldar Webway. Obviously, some of these tunnels would be demon infested and would need to be purged. This depletes the Legio Custodes, but not to the extent that it does in canon. So, by the time the Siege of Terra occurs they are able to take a more active role and help to balance out the fact that the traitors on Terra are much more numerous than the defenders (Attackers include Ultramarines and DA right, and I imagine that they're probably more organised than the traitors on terra in canon). I don't feel the need to massively complicate it, but we need a reason other than 'the Emperor is busy' as to why He doesn't muster the 10,000 and slaughter the Ultramarines etc. as soon as they're able.

 

The attackers would have the DA at their core (who were plenty numerous as it was) but, because of the actions of the Lion and the attempted usurpation of control of the civil war, the Ultramarines do not assist. However, committing the ten thousand to the webway, largely, seems reasonable enough. No major events have occurred to divert their attention or give the Emperor pause enough to recall them.  

 

 

 

[GuillimanHeretic]

Oh boy, so much to respond to... 

 

 

@GuillimanHeretic

 

I think it's great that you've made a concerted effort to 'revive' this project and would like to thank you for it.

 

 

And I too. Two years of inactivity (not including the personal discourses I have had with Conn in the meantime) can leave a project cold. Inert. The express interest shown has certainly thawed this stasis - jolted in into active territory once again.

 

 

I suppose, I'm glad I got the ball rolling again. But I don't think I can really say I'm a part of this anymore. My "version" of the GH is clearly different in some details that aren't to you guys' liking so much as they are to mine, and even from the beginning a year ago, I had ideas that will probably be contradicted, like setting up an alternate Deathwatch/Grey Knights in the form of the Knights-Errant, and making Remus Ventanus the Angetia Primus/Hand of the Sigilite/K-E founder.

 

I didn't initially want to stray from what was written and agreed upon here, originally I was very reluctant to. But the thread had obviously died and I didn't think it would ever be kicked back to life again, even when I finally got around to joining B&C and posting here (which was kind of on a whim). I thought it would stay dead regardless.

 

Last year I had a really difficult decision to make regarding the Imperial Fists and Salamanders and their patron Chaos God. Someone at my local GW had told me that they thought Salamanders and Death Guard were a mirror of each other, and that they thought they should have fallen to Nurgle instead. I gave it some thought and almost swapped them around, because I liked the idea of neon-yellow Slaameshi Imperial Fists (with Sigismund's Crusader Host resembling canon EC, in pink and black). But I eventually talked myself out of it.

 

Recently I came to a decision about the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Salamanders, and whether they should fall to Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh respectively. Based on other people's alternate heresies and this and what I like/don't like about each one. It goes something like this:

 

I have four options.

1. Khornate BA, Nurgle IF, and Slaamanders. I like all three enough, even if I'm still unsure about Nurgle IF, it still works.

2. Khornate BA, Nurgle Salamanders and Slaanesh IF. I like the idea of Khorne BA and Slaanesh IF makes some sense. But I don't think Salamanders suit Nurgle. If anything he would hate fire as it destroys life rather than changing or corrupting it.

2. Khornate IF, Nurgle Salamanders and Slaanesh BA. I like the idea of Khorne IF and Slaanesh BA makes some sense. But I don't think Salamanders suit Nurgle, if anything he would hate fire as it destroys life rather than changing or corrupting it.

4. Khornate IF, Nurgle BA, and Slaamanders. I like the idea of Khorne IF and Slaamanders, but Nurgle BA don't sit well with me.

 

So the first option is still the best one available, or at least the least flawed.

 

So while I can still provide ideas that hopefully don't contradict anything or get turned down in the end, and take plenty of pointers and ideas from this in my version, it's still going to be my "version." I don't know what to call it though to differentiate the two. My this is B&C's Guilliman Heresy and my "version" is.... I dunno, GuillimanHeretic's Guilliman Heresy? DeviantArt's Guilliman Heresy? I'm bad at naming things. Something that differentiates it as an offshoot/off-branch of the forum thread, but no longer the same project.

 

When talking about my version though, I'll type in bold just to make it clear, and so you don't have to pay it any mind if it's not useful or relevant.

 

Regarding Morturg:

 

Personally, I am unconvinced of the connection between Garro and the Grey Knights (evidence to the contrary is always welcome), but that is completely by-the-by. I'm wary of making connections to canon just because it is easy - for example, making anything silver because what they replaced in canon was also silver. In my opinion, kill teams and the like will bear heraldry that makes sense at the time. Now, that said, this is a fluid area due to it's undeveloped nature. We'll see what we can see.

 

 

 

The whole silver armor thing, and Garro's assumed connection to the Grey Knights, is because Garro's armor is stripped of it's Death Guard paint and because he's dubbed a Knight-Errant by Tylos Rubio. So he may not be the founder (he probably isn't, as GW have said they have a different fate in mind for him) but he is a big part of where the idea of the Grey Knights came from.

 

So for Remus Ventanus, I chose him because I wanted to play a version of the Dawn of War Horus Heresy Campaign Demo that I found and downloaded in 2006, using the same map and editing screenshots of the ending cutscene, to replace Horus with Lion El'Jonson and Garro with an Ultramarines Captain. 

 

The Lion sends a force of Dark Angels and Ultramarines to recapture Istvaan III. And the Lion is able to tell an Ultramarines Captain on the planet (the same as what Horus says to Garro in the campaign):

 

 

Rest assured, I will pass on your complaint to your Primarch as he battles at the very heart of Terra by my side. Goodbye Captain, may he have more mercy on your soul than he had for you in life.

 

 

So I needed an Ultramarines Captain from the 30k era and Ventanus was the first name on offer. I posted the edited screenshots of that campaign (along with Luther offering Ventanus his support) here:

http://guilliman-heretic.deviantart.com/art/The-Guilliman-Heresy-Betrayal-at-Istvaan-III-625063797

 

 

But since a lot has changed (both in the Horus Heresy lore and this) since that DoW mod/demo of a mod was released, and it's no longer canon to my version of the GH either. Ventanus and Luther would have to be stationed on Istvaan III for fifty years almost before the Heresy broke out, and it'd give them too much time to go and warn Terra. So I ended up completely rewriting it as the Ichar IV massacre, which was a real pain to write until I ended up making it a lot closer to Istvaan III in canon. I couldn't really see any other way around it. The only problem is Guilliman getting enraged enough at Thiel's defiance that he commits a massive ground assault to deal with him rather than simply bombarding the planet again. But then Cypher's Dark Angels emerge to make it a more even fight, even though it's still a last stand with Thiel losing his life and Cypher escaping the planet (much like how Morturg escapes Istvaan III.)

 

 

Crysos Morturg was a Death Guard Librarian and lieutentant who survived Istvaan III and went on to tell the Council of Terra what happened there. He's one of the only people to actually survive and escape the extermination. I feel he could be a good fit for the 'Hand of the Sigillite' role, although why he'd be chosen for this is a different question entirely. Maybe he's been under the command of Typhon and escapes the event that causes the loss of Mortarion and Typhon to report this to Terra?

 

 

 

Iirc, the loss of Mortarion and the Reaper's Blade is as much an enigma as it is a tragedy. Or, at least, in-universe it is. If this remains the case, then Morturg's revelations on that final flight will be from a personal perspective and likely won't include experience of what happens on the bridge. However, his own escape could very well be because he was aboard an escort of the Reaper's Blade instead. This may provide enough distance so that we can maintain a certain level of mystery while giving a first-hand account of what apparently went down.

 

 

The man is a survivor, through and through. The exact nature of his survival from the loss of the Reaper's Blade may be something worth exploring, if he was there. Perhaps he is the one to personally bring the news of Mortarion's loss to Terra and, for what reason I don't know, he is inducted as the Hand of the Sigilitte. The how will be tricky but I believe he has the chops to do Garro's job.

 

 

I personally like the idea of Morturg being the one to tell Malcador of the fate of Mortarion. If we're using him as a Garro type character then we can have the journey through the warp be really difficult, thus allowing him his moment to shine in this alternate canon. The man is hard as nails and this needs to be shown.

 

 

 

All this is interesting, but I don't know what else I can do but have him be a part of Remus' Knights-Errant, a new recruit after the loss of the Reaper's Blade. 

 

I don't see why he needs to do Garro's job when somebody else could have broken free of the traitors' ranks and warned Terra well in advance of the Reaper's Blade incident. I just think the traitor Legions need famous loyalists, I've always loved loyalists from traitor Legions, that's what attracted me to Garro and the canon Knights-Errant in the first place. Even if it's not Remus Ventanus, I mean I haven't seen anyone mention what happens with Cypher. In canon, Cypher (or A Cypher) makes it all the way to Terra in the Gathering Storm series. So why not replace the idea of a named character like Garro or Ventanus, with an enigmatic one like Cypher? It's too late for me to do that, but it'd make it different from canon, and Luther can still lead his rebellion on Caliban by himself, or appoint a new Cypher to take his place.

 

I don't know if this is useful or not, but the actor Bill Nighy (who played Davy Jones in Pirates of the Carribean, and the Vampire Lord Viktor in Underworld) has always struck me as perfect casting for Mortarion. And since the Reaper's Blade is lost in the Warp and turns him and everyone on board into unnatural mutant monstrosities of Nurgle, it makes Mortarion closer to Davy Jones. Especially if his ship is the only one to do so, making the Reaper's Blade the space equivalent of the Flying Dutchman.

 

Instead of inter-legion kill teams, how about we have the re-introduction of the Consul-Obsequirai role. These were pretty much space marine commissars who held the power of life and death over their brothers. They were necessary in the early VI Legion. The fact that we don't have the splitting of the legions could justify the re-introduction as they would be more important as you really don't want corruption in Legion sized forces.

 

 

 

I'm not overly familiar with the 'Consul-Obsequirai'. Though, then again, I am slowly but surely getting ever more behind on my HH literature. Can you point me to them? Are they in Inferno?

 

 

 

 

Yes, the Consul-Obsequirai is from Inferno. Basically the early Space Wolf Legion was much more like the World Eaters and they required actual disciplinary officers in order to keep them in line. They're effectively more extreme Chaplains.

 

 

 

 

Sounds a bit grimdark for me, since I'm trying to strike a somewhat lighter tone from the usual grimdark tone of canon 40k. I guess it depends on the Legion, some like the early Space Wolves needing it more than others. Or it could be a secular replacement for the Chaplains, that Lorgar comes up with to maintain the spread of Imperial Truth and keep discipline among the loyalist Legions. In that case, my instinct would be to simply call them Consuls, after the Roman title of the same name, and thus handle diplomacy as well as being a chief magistrate in that particular Battle Company. Maybe call it the Consular Order.

 

Regarding the Salamanders:

 

 

I think moving to extremes is the name of the game with Slaanesh and the Salamanders. So, the brighter the green, the more obnoxious the orange, the better (I like that illustrative example btw). As for Dorn... oh yeah. I still have to look up any description of him, if there is any.

 

 

 

With regards to the colouring of the Salamanders, I would overemphasise the colours as Slaanesh is all about excess. Have the green be so bright it's almost neon with a similar orange. Yeah, it would look terrible but I feel that that's kinda the point of Slaanesh. Apart from that I like the scheme you've created for them.

 

 

 

I'll keep that in mind, and depending on if/when GW release new Emperor's Children and Slaaneshi models for 40k, and what those models are like in terms of conversion material, I may end up starting a GH Salamanders army. But as far as painting them goes, I wanna try giving them a bright, metallic green that looks reptillian. Not a pearlescent blue/green like the Alpha Legion, but if it looks too much like Alpha Legion I might just make it a flat green.

 

Regarding an Ultramarines Mournival:

 

As I understood them, the Tetrarchs served as co-rulers of Ultramar, each governing a particular world of importance. They serve as counsel when they happened to be in the same place as Guilliman. But permanent counsel? That's something the Tacitus can give.

 

 

 

The Tetrachs in my mind fit the idea of the Mournival better. In canon the mournival are Horus's most trusted advisors and commanders, so it would make sense for Guilliman to delegate parts of the 500 worlds to their command. They would be together for a lot of the time regardless, so I don't feel the need to create a whole new body.

 

 

 

'm less inclined to think the Ultramarines need a Mournival equivalent, as the Tetrarchs fulfill the role well enough already. The differences between the two, and there are quite a few, are a good thing that should be retained. It's the difference between the Ultramarines and the Sons of Horus. Guilliman's primary goals was a self-sufficient empire that his own sons would have a place in, and the Tetrarchs are an extension of that. Horus, on the other hand, concentrated himself and his sons into the pinpoint force of the one, forever on the offensive. The "speartip" assault and the Mournival are essentially the same strategy, one simply being off of the battlefield.

 

The concept of the Tacitus is an interesting one, don't get me wrong, but I think trying to recreate a Mournival within the Ultramarines is a step away from their own character and toward being a mirror of canon. The Ultramarines are a replacement of the Sons of Horus, true, but that doesn't mean we should make the Ultramarines more like the Sons of Horus. If that makes any sense.

 

The Tetrarchs are not always at Guilliman's side, but rather embody his virtues and authority across his domain. In the Guilliman Heresy, this domain is greatly extended, and a greater distance among the Tetrarchs would be a given. It's not just the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar, it's most of the Imperium. Following the death of Guilliman at the hands of the Emperor, it's these Tetrarchs (and newer additions over the course of 10,000 years) that continue to hold his authority over the remnants of their lord's sons, long after the Ultramarines as a Legion have stopped being truth.

 

 

 

I suppose so, and it's a good point about Guilliman's intentions and strategies being different from Horus'. Horus is all about the speartip and being on the offensive, conquering one world after another with ruthless efficiency and his best commanders at his side, but one world at a time nonetheless. Guilliman's is about spreading his force out and building a stable Empire with the strongest possible foundations, and giving his Legion an important role besides warfare. Since he is a statesman as well as a warrior, his Legion are genetically predisposed to be similar. Which is why I think Guilliman logically needs more of a "Corrupt Politician" feel to him, rather than a brutish invader like Horus. Horus is like Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, but Guilliman is like Sheev Palpatine/The Emperor. A sinister manipulator, politician and dictatorial ruler who uses his mind just as much as his strength and power.

 

Though he still needs some serious muscle to carry out his orders and be the brutish conqueror... I could do with some input and ideas regarding his second-in-command being either Marius Gage or a new character entirely, someone to be the Abaddon and take over as Warmaster after the Heresy.

 

What happens to Abaddon, anyway? I remember it being mentioned that his outsider status kept him low among the ranks of the traitors. But if he survives at all, I don't think that suits him. In canon, the Ultramarines supposedly provided safe haven for warbands of Blackshields and loyalists from traitor Legions, assimilating them into the Ultramarines and protecting them from being discovered. Hence the successor Chapters like the Silver Skulls being rumored to have been loyalist Iron Warriors (even if they weren't). And maybe members of the II and XI Legions were assimilated into the Ultramarines for their own protection. (Which would be an interesting avenue to help explain the Legion's size in the GH, and even hint at a possible reason for their mass corruption).

 

So what if Abaddon and his surviving Justaerin become a part of the Ultramarines/Omega Legion?

 

(As an aside, I was thinking of having Magnus kill him long before the Heresy and be done with it, after Abaddon leads a vicious campaign of re-compliance in the wake of Horus' death, the Thousand Sons challenge him due to his methods, the Sons of Horus and Thousand Sons aren't particular fond of him, so he and his Justaerin have a final stand. Afterwards Magnus finds Horus Aximand who is still insane and cures his insanity by showing him a vision of how Horus really died. Aximand takes command of the entire Legion a changed man, and the SoH start becoming a noble Legion again, like green Ultramarines. Hence the change from black Justaerin to white, commemorating Horus' sacrifice. And the general lack of black armor, replaced with either white or gold.)

 

Regarding Corax and the Raven Guard:

 

 

This, now this is intriguing. Doing something different with Corax may be what he needs to make him our own Corax and not merely a passenger to an alternative canon. We do indeed begin him on a new direction with Namn - a chance meeting with Russ afterwards could be another moment to redefine our Corax - and continue that with his successful implementation of the Raptors. 

 

Incidentally, these Raptoris Astartes would end up being the next generation that would not become a thing in canon for ten thousand years with the Primaris. These would be the 'astartes 2.0' that we've mentioned from time to time. They are the Daft Punk generation - Stronger. Better. Faster. 

 

I'm getting a little off-track here. This Chief-Librarian (maybe Hriak? Maybe someone else?) has had fifty extra years to develop as opposed to canon. He has seen the denial of the Warmaster role to both the Lion and Guilliman. He has witnessed the Nikaean Council and the Emperor's Verdict personally. He remembers where he was when Horus died on Davin. So what exactly would motivate him to do what he had, earning him the ire and judgement of his gene-father?

 

 

My problem is that the more he's made different from canon, and only saved from corruption by luck, the more I want to make him a traitor. I made Balsar Kurthuri the Chief Librarian following the Namn Massacre, and the means of corrupting Corax was his desperation and already being so far gone that the Emperor would have him and his Legion destroyed for their rampant mutations. They don't need the Alpha Legion to corrupt the genetic material the Emperor gave them, Kurthuri was already a follower of Tzeentch and made sure it resulted in hideous mutants instead. I could add a bit about him showing Corax a vision of the Emperor, and how he cares so little about his creations, like the conversation with Arkhan Land about Angron. Only it would just serve to drive Corax even further into the traitor camp.

 

Exactly my thoughts throughout, from day one. Having a mixture of canon loyalists and traitors be our alternate loyalists paints our heresy differently from some of the others*. While the traitorous astartes in our heresy are 95% loyalist in canon, they are not a mirror of the disposition of forces in canon. Incidentally, our own rebellion, without the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines manpower to carry the numbers, would be in serious trouble what with numbering only around five Legions in total (the Iron Hands fall later and the White Scars break from everyone in their own secession). It will be a credit to Guilliman that his war will not see his own side crushed within months.

 

 

By having the Raven Guard fall as well I feel this Heresy becomes too similar to the majority of other 'alternate heresies' where it's just the canon loyal legions turning traitor instead.

*This was begun at a time when the only major alternate heresy around was the Dornian Heresy, with many 'minor' attempts merely swapping the sides around.

 

 

 

I suppose so, but there's still the Space Wolves for that. I don't see why the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons would need to come to blows, without the events of the Burning of Prospero or Magnus' warning taking place. They can be distrustful of one another, but once they both have to team up to aid in establishing the Imperial Webway, they become really close brothers. Maybe that could be the Emperor's plan all along, to make them comrades in arms by fighting a challenging enemy together.

 

My problem with it is that the traitor Legions feel a bit outnumbered, and even with the sheer size of the Ultramarines, the loyalists' victory in the end feel too easy for me. Victory is sweeter by virtue of having to fight harder for it.

 

Regarding the Custodes:

 

Also, does anyone have any ideas regarding other forces like the Legio Custodes bearing in mind we don't have Magnus' Folly existing in this timeline? (as far as I know). Do we want them to only show up at the Siege of Terra and Siege of Macragge and simply limit the focus to the Legions or do we want to expand on the roles of the other military forces?

 

The Custodes. While it would initially seem like me and Conn are the only two destined to finalise input for this project, we'd like input from others. Fresh perspectives. So... what would you do with them? 

 

 

Regarding the Custodes, we need a reason for them not to be too involved in the Heresy if Inferno and Master of Mankind is anything to go by. However, I feel that keeping it simple is best. How about we have the Imperial Webway project reach a point where simply building new tunnels is not viable and they have to being to expand through, and clear out long abandoned parts of the Eldar Webway. Obviously, some of these tunnels would be demon infested and would need to be purged. This depletes the Legio Custodes, but not to the extent that it does in canon. So, by the time the Siege of Terra occurs they are able to take a more active role and help to balance out the fact that the traitors on Terra are much more numerous than the defenders (Attackers include Ultramarines and DA right, and I imagine that they're probably more organised than the traitors on terra in canon). I don't feel the need to massively complicate it, but we need a reason other than 'the Emperor is busy' as to why He doesn't muster the 10,000 and slaughter the Ultramarines etc. as soon as they're able.  

 

 

 

The attackers would have the DA at their core (who were plenty numerous as it was) but, because of the actions of the Lion and the attempted usurpation of control of the civil war, the Ultramarines do not assist. However, committing the ten thousand to the webway, largely, seems reasonable enough. No major events have occurred to divert their attention or give the Emperor pause enough to recall them.  

 

 

 

It's always been a bit of a plothole that the Emperor and the Custodes don't just leave the Webway and crush the traitor Legions with ease. So I think some sort of War in the Webway is needed, though not caused by Magnus. It could be that the Webway is still infested with countless daemons and needs the presence of the Emperor, the Custodes, the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons to purge it completely. And during this version of the War in the Webway, the Emperor still decides to lead the loyalists at a moment when Drach'nyen is lying it wait for him, and is still bound into the form of a sword the same way as in canon. And from there, is taken by the daemonic forces to the Tower of Silence. And the Dark Gods then commune with Guilliman, telling him to go to Uralan, near the Eye of Terror.

 

Perhaps Uralan could be Guilliman's version of Molech, where he goes to battle countless daemons and becomes visibly older when he emerges, with newfound powers and wielding Drach'nyen from that point on.

 

I don't know what should happen to Molech, if anything. Perhaps the most likely way to involve it in the Heresy is to make it part of Lion El'Jonson's assault on Terra, either in the initial assault or in the retreat, with traitor forces making a final stand there while attempting to break into the Warp Portal there.

 

In canon, Dark Angels are involved in bringing Molech into compliance originally, and Ultramarines and Blood Angels are part of the battle against Horus' assault. So maybe a splinter group of DA, UM and BA (and maybe others) use the Lion's assault on Terra as a diversion to attack Molech? But without any traitor Primarchs present. So however close they get, whatever damage they do, they ultimately fail.

 

I don't know why but I always imagine Molech resembling Scariff from Rogue One, with tropical beaches and lush vegetaton.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Conn Eremon]

I suppose, I'm glad I got the ball rolling again. But I don't think I can really say I'm a part of this anymore. My "version" of the GH is clearly different in some details that aren't to you guys' liking so much as they are to mine, and even from the beginning a year ago, I had ideas that will probably be contradicted, like setting up an alternate Deathwatch/Grey Knights in the form of the Knights-Errant, and making Remus Ventanus the Angetia Primus/Hand of the Sigilite/K-E founder.

 

 

I didn't initially want to stray from what was written and agreed upon here, originally I was very reluctant to. But the thread had obviously died and I didn't think it would ever be kicked back to life again, even when I finally got around to joining B&C and posting here (which was kind of on a whim). I thought it would stay dead regardless.

 

 

Like they stated already, it's nice to see this thread revived and interest shown, particularly at this level. The Guilliman Heresy thread may have gone silent for quite some time, but it's never left our minds as something to return to. We're far too invested to ever let this idea die, as I have the Corax Coup. Each of FW's releases, for instance, tends to lead to some quiet conversation on how it ties in. the near mythical Third Thread has long been on our List of Things To Do.

 

 

Last year I had a really difficult decision to make regarding the Imperial Fists and Salamanders and their patron Chaos God. Someone at my local GW had told me that they thought Salamanders and Death Guard were a mirror of each other, and that they thought they should have fallen to Nurgle instead. I gave it some thought and almost swapped them around, because I liked the idea of neon-yellow Slaameshi Imperial Fists (with Sigismund's Crusader Host resembling canon EC, in pink and black). But I eventually talked myself out of it.

 

Recently I came to a decision about the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Salamanders, and whether they should fall to Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh respectively. Based on other people's alternate heresies and this and what I like/don't like about each one. It goes something like this:

 

I have four options.

1. Khornate BA, Nurgle IF, and Slaamanders. I like all three enough, even if I'm still unsure about Nurgle IF, it still works.

2. Khornate BA, Nurgle Salamanders and Slaanesh IF. I like the idea of Khorne BA and Slaanesh IF makes some sense. But I don't think Salamanders suit Nurgle. If anything he would hate fire as it destroys life rather than changing or corrupting it.

2. Khornate IF, Nurgle Salamanders and Slaanesh BA. I like the idea of Khorne IF and Slaanesh BA makes some sense. But I don't think Salamanders suit Nurgle, if anything he would hate fire as it destroys life rather than changing or corrupting it.

4. Khornate IF, Nurgle BA, and Slaamanders. I like the idea of Khorne IF and Slaamanders, but Nurgle BA don't sit well with me.

 

So the first option is still the best one available, or at least the least flawed.

 

So while I can still provide ideas that hopefully don't contradict anything or get turned down in the end, and take plenty of pointers and ideas from this in my version, it's still going to be my "version." I don't know what to call it though to differentiate the two. My this is B&C's Guilliman Heresy and my "version" is.... I dunno, GuillimanHeretic's Guilliman Heresy? DeviantArt's Guilliman Heresy? I'm bad at naming things. Something that differentiates it as an offshoot/off-branch of the forum thread, but no longer the same project.

 

When talking about my version though, I'll type in bold just to make it clear, and so you don't have to pay it any mind if it's not useful or relevant.

 

It's admirable that you're taking this in your own direction. Really, the idea that someone likes our setting enough to make it their own sandbox is hugely gratifying. Regarding keeping your own offshoot distinct, if the intent is to avoid confusion over which "Guilliman Heresy" content is being discussed for, the best solution is honestly to create another thread. A new thread, a new name, and you'd have something entirely yours from that point on. Of course, cross traffic would be a thing, given how closely tied the two projects would be. Here you can provide feedback while Olis and I make final determinations, and there we can provide feedback while you make final determinations.

 

One name that was offered to us, and was a pretty tempting one, is Roboute's Rebellion. Alliterative, and calls to mind Robert's Rebellion of ASoIaF fame.

 

Until your new thread is created, we can continue to provide feedback here. For starters, honestly I'm of the opinion that every Legion/Primarch could be suited to any Chaos God. Each of the Chaos Gods represent something fundamental about existence and humanity, and with the Primarchs being reflections of humanity, there's something there that can be connected to any of the Four. All it takes is finding that reflection and bringing it forward to stand center-stage.

 

For example, you mention the Salamanders and Nurgle being unsuited to each other, but I beg to differ. Fire is not just a force for destruction but one of regeneration. Forest fires precede periods of rapid growth and a changing ecology. A good comparison can be made there between the two. Nurgle doesn't want to end life, but cultivate it in the Chaos way. Nurgle's touch upon reality takes the form of rapid, violent bursts of life that subverts and supplants that which came before. Fire paves the way for similarly rapid, violent bursts of life that, through the fire, subverted and supplanted that which was there before.

 

I'd continue further, but food's here and I'm starving.

[GuillimanHeretic]

 

Like they stated already, it's nice to see this thread revived and interest shown, particularly at this level. The Guilliman Heresy thread may have gone silent for quite some time, but it's never left our minds as something to return to. We're far too invested to ever let this idea die, as I have the Corax Coup. Each of FW's releases, for instance, tends to lead to some quiet conversation on how it ties in. the near mythical Third Thread has long been on our List of Things To Do.

 

It's admirable that you're taking this in your own direction. Really, the idea that someone likes our setting enough to make it their own sandbox is hugely gratifying. Regarding keeping your own offshoot distinct, if the intent is to avoid confusion over which "Guilliman Heresy" content is being discussed for, the best solution is honestly to create another thread. A new thread, a new name, and you'd have something entirely yours from that point on. Of course, cross traffic would be a thing, given how closely tied the two projects would be. Here you can provide feedback while Olis and I make final determinations, and there we can provide feedback while you make final determinations.

 

One name that was offered to us, and was a pretty tempting one, is Roboute's Rebellion. Alliterative, and calls to mind Robert's Rebellion of ASoIaF fame.

 

Until your new thread is created, we can continue to provide feedback here. For starters, honestly I'm of the opinion that every Legion/Primarch could be suited to any Chaos God. Each of the Chaos Gods represent something fundamental about existence and humanity, and with the Primarchs being reflections of humanity, there's something there that can be connected to any of the Four. All it takes is finding that reflection and bringing it forward to stand center-stage.

 

For example, you mention the Salamanders and Nurgle being unsuited to each other, but I beg to differ. Fire is not just a force for destruction but one of regeneration. Forest fires precede periods of rapid growth and a changing ecology. A good comparison can be made there between the two. Nurgle doesn't want to end life, but cultivate it in the Chaos way. Nurgle's touch upon reality takes the form of rapid, violent bursts of life that subverts and supplants that which came before. Fire paves the way for similarly rapid, violent bursts of life that, through the fire, subverted and supplanted that which was there before.

 

I'd continue further, but food's here and I'm starving.

 

 

I dunno if another thread is really neccessary, the differences aren't so huge that it's a different entity altogether. But not small enough to be ignored. It's an awkward position to be in...

 

The thing about the Guilliman Heresy as a name, is that it's the best one I can think of. Roboute's Rebellion is more secular and has the alliteration of the Horus Heresy. But when people talk about Horus, they refer to him as Horus. Not Lupercal. When people talk about Guilliman, they refer to him as Guilliman, not Roboute. So I prefer the Guilliman Heresy as a title, even if it's still refers to the concept of Heresy which implies a religious meaning.

 

Guilliman Gambit, maybe. I don't know if Gambit is a good enough word for it though. If it grows on me I'll think about it. The Guilliman Heresy has just stuck.

 

With the Legions and their patron Gods, I'm always quietly envious of the Horus Heresy having it seem so natural and effortless, like those Legions were destined to fall from the beginning. The Thousand Sons' sorcery, the Emperor's Children's unmanliness, the Death Guard's morbidity, the World Eater's bloodlust, and the Black Legion's conquering, warmongering nature.  And the Night Lords' sadism., and the Word Bearer's piousness. I don't really like destiny as a device in storytelling, critically or philosophically, but the canon timeline will always look like this amorphous blob of unassailable literature. There's no question of what happened or why, and tries to create the impression that it couldn't have been any other way.

 

The only way to counter that is find some obvious, well known characteristic and exaggerate the hell out of it. The Salamander's interest in reptiles, the Blood Angels' vampirism, the Fists' implacability and the Raven Guard's avian theme/sneakiness. The Ultramarines meanwhile are like a mad Roman Emperor, like Caligula or something, rather than a noble one. They are Rome from the perspective of it's enemies rather than from their own egotistical point of view. I want it to feel as definitive as possible, I don't want people to go "Really?" very often. And if they're surprised, it needs to be in a good way, like something that never occurred to them but makes perfect sense.

 

Oh and I just took some photos of my updated Remus Ventanus model:

http://i.imgur.com/5yiH1Hc.jpg

http://guilliman-heretic.deviantart.com/art/Sir-Remus-Ventanus-model-update-697091135 (also has the link to where I got the spiked shoulderpad from)

Edited August 6, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

In regard to the Legions feeling outnumbered, a while back a Frater by the name of GrimApostle made a thread analysing various alt.heresies (with our effort described initially as "The Macraggian Schism"). Suffice it to say, while our Ultramarines were strong on the front of quantity, it still wouldn't be enough to stymie the loyalists. Hence why I keep saying the Dark Angels have numbers. Our discourse revealed his recommendations for making our Heresy more plausible. The path of least resistance would be to increase the size of the DA to a degree where they would threaten the supremacy of the Ultramarines:

By the numbers, Guilliman is looking very good for only having 7 Legions on his side. While still a tall order for him to overcome, this would be the best way to put him in striking distance of victory without altering your story significantly. An additional possibility is, without turning another Legion, that Guilliman had an early co-conspirator who had another effective Legion which also undertook preparations for the rebellion by increasing its strength - say the Dark Angels doubled their Legion in tandem with Guilliman to prepare for the revolt, for example.

Now, according to his more-or-less arbitrary numbers, the GH is still destined to fail. And, the other option given which promised better numbers had the White Scars join him. This was not an option as we had already long established the Khanate as a seceded entity, but that is immaterial here. We're talking of the DA.

It occurs to me that not much has been said about this in this thread. I know myself and Conn had discussed it privately, seeing it as an avenue to make Guilliman's rebels more of a threat. We all know that, with fifty years lead time, numbers in all the Legions are likely to increase. The Word Bearers, of them all, had a significant numbers advantage in canon - which, with the events at Calth, was squandered - but without Lorgar being the prime mover of this heresy would they still have those numbers? It seems less likely for them to have the men rivalling their canon nemeses, instead having a more... middling amount. Exactly what can be considered 'middling' is for us to work out. Probably something around the 200,000 mark.

The Iron Warriors, given their stable gene-seed stock, would probably be a large Legion. As could be the Sons of Horus. But not to the same degree as the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels. Of course, our Ultras have half a million men. Guilliman has had at least some time to build his numbers. The Lion, ever competing with Guilliman for that non-existent Warmaster title and likely trying to recapture the First Legion pre-Rangdan glory days, would be keen to not let the XIIIth outclass his own Legion in any regard. Our Lion is not exactly humble.

---------

As for Cypher... Man, we haven't spoken about Cypher in years. Literally. I had to go back to the original thread to find references to him. And I say we. Well... me and Conn have never talked about him. Shas'Va did. Briefly. As a loyalist on the side of Luther. But that is mostly it. *shrug*

So... we could make him a cohort of Morturg with no real problem...

[GuillimanHeretic]

I'm gonna surprise everyone with a short post.

 

Which Cypher, Zahariel or someone else? Or will his true identity never be revealed or even hinted at?

[Olis]

I'm gonna surprise everyone with a short post.

 

Which Cypher, Zahariel or someone else? Or will his true identity never be revealed or even hinted at?

 

Hooray for short posts! I know I am also guilty of long posts but they do drag on my attention somewhat. ^_^

 

Anyhoo... Cypher. Do we want Zahariel to be this character in this heresy? The events that brought him to be the canon one don't occur, so I feel Zahariel's predecessor could still inhabit that role no problem, what with him being described as 'young'. And, if that is the case... he still has no confirmed identity other than 'Lord Cypher'.

[GuillimanHeretic]

Is there an equivalent of the Word Bearer's Dark Apostles? With the Chaplains, Lorgar probably either doesn't create them or changes it to something different. But what do the traitor Legions have as their main orators to spread the word of Chaos and lead armies of cultists?

 

My version of the Lion's Dark Angels renamed their Legion the Dark Apostles, to reflect their "mirror Word Bearers" status. So I kinda need a different name. I could use Word Bearer and swap things around fully, but I'd rather come up with something better.

[Olis]

Hmm. I would assume that something like Chaplains by and large exist in our 'verse. But a reskin of Dark Apostles, eh? Not sure. Agitators? Demagogues? Instigators? Anarchs?