The Guilliman Heresy

[GuillimanHeretic]

I think it should have "Black" in the title instead of "Dark." Since there's no risk of being confused with the Black Legion, only with the Dark Angels/Apostles.

 

Black Priest? Black Demagogue? Black Agitator? Black Anarch? Black Cardinal?

Not Black Templar, that'd just be silly.

Edited August 6, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

The strongest option of those, in my opinion is the 'Black Cardinal' but I'm not sure it's entirely suited to its purpose. I'm not sure 'black' as a prefix will automatically work here.

 

Edit - Or maybe Black Priest. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Olis

[GuillimanHeretic]

Why not?

[Olis]

It lends itself well to only a few options, in my opinion. It's purely down to a matter of personal preference.

[GuillimanHeretic]

I think "Black Cardinal" is a type of bird...

 

Black Priest would be my choice, anyway. Quick, before it becomes a heavy metal band!

Edited August 6, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[SixOfOne]

I can't be bothered to quote everything, but here are some thoughts.

 

@Olis

 

I like that course of events for the Raven Guard. Have the Namm massacre be protracted in a similar way to how Vietnam was in reality. This also allows for Russ and the Space Wolves turning up in a way that is less of a Deus Ex Machina. How about we have Corax sending Russ a message before the Massacre in which he states that he is going to meet Vulkan in order to ascertain the truth of what is going on, but if Russ doesn't hear from Corax after that then he should fear the worse. This makes Russ split his legion and take part of it to Namm as quickly as possible. When he arrives, he finds a void battle going on with the Raven Guard ships in terrible condition and obviously overwhelmed.

 

I would have the 'vision' and confrontation occur on Deliverance as it would be pretty stupid for the Chief Librarian to risk that meeting on Terra and they'd be no basis for it as the Raptors would not have been created yet. I do think that having Corax and the Raven Guard as more 'Unleash the Deliverers' and less 'Liberator of Lyceaus' is good during the Heresy. It might be a good end for their Arc if they begin to return to Corax's previous teachings slightly after the Heresy is over and maybe after the death of Corax. They could realise that the Imperium needs protectors more like how Corax was trying to shape the legion before the Heresy as opposed to their more violent ways. 

 

Regarding the Legion sizes, a bit of manipulation is all that's required. Let's have the DA be larger and emphasise their 'unknown resources' more as this gives more leeway to have Luther's loyalists as well. As they don't obtain the Gene tech from Corax, the Alpha legion would work as being smaller (For reasons I will talk about below) and having the Iron Warriors still garrison planets makes them more spread out and means that the siege of Terra is closer fought. The Emperor's Children also work well as a smaller legion.

 

I do like the idea of Guilliman taking a completely different approach to Horus. If we have Guilliman focus more on the Empire building part and making sure that the foundations of his rebellion are stronger fits his command style better and allows us to explore a different path than Horus's 'let's take Terra as quickly as possible'. If he focuses on the Empire building part then we can have the Ultramarines be larger and able to replace most losses quickly due to a huge recruitment pool (similar to Ancient Rome. It's one of the reasons why the Romans were so successful). It also means that the Alpha Legion find it more difficult to achieve their desired style of warfare if they can't subvert populations as easily, causing them to take higher losses.

 

@GuillimanHeretic

 

I don't feel that it's entirely necessary to fully explore Cypher. It's often best to keep things somewhat mysterious. Maybe have him be with the Lion, not on Caliban for most of the Crusade. Then have him show up on Caliban after the Heresy breaks out or something. 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by SixOfOne

[GuillimanHeretic]

 

@GuillimanHeretic

 

I don't feel that it's entirely necessary to fully explore Cypher. It's often best to keep things somewhat mysterious. Maybe have him be with the Lion, not on Caliban for most of the Crusade. Then have him show up on Caliban after the Heresy breaks out or something. 

 

 

 

 

 

Me neither, plus the more epic and heroic deeds he does, the cooler it is that his identity is completely unknown. Which is why I think he should be more important. No SO important that he's a household name or he saves the Imperium single-handed, but enough to make him this really cool rogue hero, the man with no name.

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

On a slightly different tack: Dark Angels ---> Dark Apostles. The part of me that hates literary convenience recoils at the idea but there is a part of me that finds the idea... curious. I know the Omega Legion is the only traitorous one to fully change their name atm and I know various Chaos Factions have their own identity (the Crusader Host for example), so what I'm considering is the ongoing development of distinctiveness. Maybe the 'Dark Apostles' direction is not one that me and Conn will likely implement but at the very least the discourse about it will yield fruit. There's plenty of Dark Angels around in this heresy, so maybe a warband of them might decide to call themselves the 'Apostles' for some reason.
 

I like that course of events for the Raven Guard. Have the Namm massacre be protracted in a similar way to how Vietnam was in reality. This also allows for Russ and the Space Wolves turning up in a way that is less of a Deus Ex Machina. How about we have Corax sending Russ a message before the Massacre in which he states that he is going to meet Vulkan in order to ascertain the truth of what is going on, but if Russ doesn't hear from Corax after that then he should fear the worse. This makes Russ split his legion and take part of it to Namm as quickly as possible. When he arrives, he finds a void battle going on with the Raven Guard ships in terrible condition and obviously overwhelmed.

I would have the 'vision' and confrontation occur on Deliverance as it would be pretty stupid for the Chief Librarian to risk that meeting on Terra and they'd be no basis for it as the Raptors would not have been created yet. I do think that having Corax and the Raven Guard as more 'Unleash the Deliverers' and less 'Liberator of Lyceaus' is good during the Heresy. It might be a good end for their Arc if they begin to return to Corax's previous teachings slightly after the Heresy is over and maybe after the death of Corax. They could realise that the Imperium needs protectors more like how Corax was trying to shape the legion before the Heresy as opposed to their more violent ways.

What is it that we have leading up to Namn? *checks the OP* 

 

Well, we have Miral (our Isstvan analogue) but there's not much before that. Now, Namn will clearly be at least some time after Miral - the Salamanders were at both though they were turned during/after Miral. In this case, the aftermath of Miral would be a time of confusion and accusation. What with the Alpha Legion making a public affirmation of their loyalty, the sides seem to have been at least partly defined before Namn. The Raven Guard know that Guilliman has rebelled. So, it stands to reason that they request support. Given our discussion so far, Corax seems to have reached out to Perturabo and Russ, for whatever reason.

 

Both Perturabo and Russ were not at Miral. In which case reasoning why Corax would request their aid shouldn't be too much of a leap. In any case, Peturabo failed in his promise. Russ did not. So, Corax goes to re-establish contact with one primarch who had gone silent after Miral. He knows he cannot fully trust Vulkan at this point. Vulkan, though, has brought overwhelming force to ensure that Corax won't be a problem in the future.

 

Why did Corax meet with Vulkan, instead of waiting for Russ himself and Perturabo's men? What could possess the primarch of the Raven Guard to attend a meeting in which he does have any advantage? Could it be a possible close relationship with Vulkan? Is there another factor we haven't explored yet? Does Vulkan attempt to fool Corax into thinking the Salamanders are grievously depleted after Miral? 

 

Whatever is the case, not only does Vulkan fail to turn Corax, he fails to eliminate him, too. The rescuers from the Vlka Fenryka beat back Vulkan's coup de grace. Vulkan, for his part, isn't captured nor is he killed. Indeed, much of his strength must have withdrawn with him if they are to remain a threat in the following years of the heresy. Which begs the question, what actual strength did Vulkan have? His Legion were never the largest and hardly ever seemed to be capable of becoming one. Then there is the events of Miral, which must have depleted his Legion to a degree.

 

In that case, what else could he have brought to the fray? Additional Ultramarine troops*? Possibly. Mortal elements? Almost certainly. Titans? Probably not. Skitarii? Again, probably not.

 

Regardless, Russ's Space Wolves should send them packing. I think, at this point, we would need to think of what else to do with Russ in the early heresy to justify him splitting his force. Well, split it further than it already may have been. 

 

* I would suggest, if any, to place the Aurorans under Vulkan's command, seeing as they were supposedly green even before the canon Chapter became an entity of itself. With this in mind, it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility for the Aurorans to disguise themselves so that it appears that Vulkan has a good sized army, when push comes to shove. 

 

As for the vision, I concur that it should happen on Deliverance. The aftermath of the event, though, might end up being a literal witch-hunt with Corax allowing his anti-psyker sentiment to boil over and push him to banish or execute them. This policy would only last until some time after Corax dies/disappears - the Emperor's ruling to the contrary would be reiterated at some point, and the Raven Guard would have to grudgingly allow Librarians. 

 

Regarding the Legion sizes, a bit of manipulation is all that's required. Let's have the DA be larger and emphasise their 'unknown resources' more as this gives more leeway to have Luther's loyalists as well. As they don't obtain the Gene tech from Corax, the Alpha legion would work as being smaller (For reasons I will talk about below) and having the Iron Warriors still garrison planets makes them more spread out and means that the siege of Terra is closer fought. The Emperor's Children also work well as a smaller legion.

In regards to the Iron Warriors - they are more techno-guerrillas in this 'verse. They won't be terribly well suited to garrisoning duties any more. That particular task would be handed to Dorn, iirc.  

 

I do like the idea of Guilliman taking a completely different approach to Horus. If we have Guilliman focus more on the Empire building part and making sure that the foundations of his rebellion are stronger fits his command style better and allows us to explore a different path than Horus's 'let's take Terra as quickly as possible'. If he focuses on the Empire building part then we can have the Ultramarines be larger and able to replace most losses quickly due to a huge recruitment pool (similar to Ancient Rome. It's one of the reasons why the Romans were so successful). It also means that the Alpha Legion find it more difficult to achieve their desired style of warfare if they can't subvert populations as easily, causing them to take higher losses.

 

Indeed, the GH is a war of attrition whereas the HH is a decapitation strike on a galactic scale. The large recruitment base for the Ultramarines has been the crux of their vast numbers here (and the Apothecarion Edict, too). Hence partly why his rebellion doesn't simply fold after the opening stages. Planning, strategy and attrition are the name of the game here. ^_^

[SixOfOne]

 

 

@GuillimanHeretic

 

I don't feel that it's entirely necessary to fully explore Cypher. It's often best to keep things somewhat mysterious. Maybe have him be with the Lion, not on Caliban for most of the Crusade. Then have him show up on Caliban after the Heresy breaks out or something. 

 

 

Me neither, plus the more epic and heroic deeds he does, the cooler it is that his identity is completely unknown. Which is why I think he should be more important. No SO important that he's a household name or he saves the Imperium single-handed, but enough to make him this really cool rogue hero, the man with no name.

 

Something like that sounds fine. It might also be an interesting change to actually have him become one of Malcador's chosen as per what was supposed to happen in canon.

 

 

On a slightly different tack: Dark Angels ---> Dark Apostles. The part of me that hates literary convenience recoils at the idea but there is a part of me that finds the idea... curious. I know the Omega Legion is the only traitorous one to fully change their name atm and I know various Chaos Factions have their own identity (the Crusader Host for example), so what I'm considering is the ongoing development of distinctiveness. Maybe the 'Dark Apostles' direction is not one that me and Conn will likely implement but at the very least the discourse about it will yield fruit. There's plenty of Dark Angels around in this heresy, so maybe a warband of them might decide to call themselves the 'Apostles' for some reason.

 

I like that course of events for the Raven Guard. Have the Namm massacre be protracted in a similar way to how Vietnam was in reality. This also allows for Russ and the Space Wolves turning up in a way that is less of a Deus Ex Machina. How about we have Corax sending Russ a message before the Massacre in which he states that he is going to meet Vulkan in order to ascertain the truth of what is going on, but if Russ doesn't hear from Corax after that then he should fear the worse. This makes Russ split his legion and take part of it to Namm as quickly as possible. When he arrives, he finds a void battle going on with the Raven Guard ships in terrible condition and obviously overwhelmed.

 

I would have the 'vision' and confrontation occur on Deliverance as it would be pretty stupid for the Chief Librarian to risk that meeting on Terra and they'd be no basis for it as the Raptors would not have been created yet. I do think that having Corax and the Raven Guard as more 'Unleash the Deliverers' and less 'Liberator of Lyceaus' is good during the Heresy. It might be a good end for their Arc if they begin to return to Corax's previous teachings slightly after the Heresy is over and maybe after the death of Corax. They could realise that the Imperium needs protectors more like how Corax was trying to shape the legion before the Heresy as opposed to their more violent ways.

What is it that we have leading up to Namn? *checks the OP* 

 

Well, we have Miral (our Isstvan analogue) but there's not much before that. Now, Namn will clearly be at least some time after Miral - the Salamanders were at both though they were turned during/after Miral. In this case, the aftermath of Miral would be a time of confusion and accusation. What with the Alpha Legion making a public affirmation of their loyalty, the sides seem to have been at least partly defined before Namn. The Raven Guard know that Guilliman has rebelled. So, it stands to reason that they request support. Given our discussion so far, Corax seems to have reached out to Perturabo and Russ, for whatever reason.

 

Both Perturabo and Russ were not at Miral. In which case reasoning why Corax would request their aid shouldn't be too much of a leap. In any case, Peturabo failed in his promise. Russ did not. So, Corax goes to re-establish contact with one primarch who had gone silent after Miral. He knows he cannot fully trust Vulkan at this point. Vulkan, though, has brought overwhelming force to ensure that Corax won't be a problem in the future.

 

Why did Corax meet with Vulkan, instead of waiting for Russ himself and Perturabo's men? What could possess the primarch of the Raven Guard to attend a meeting in which he does have any advantage? Could it be a possible close relationship with Vulkan? Is there another factor we haven't explored yet? Does Vulkan attempt to fool Corax into thinking the Salamanders are grievously depleted after Miral? 

 

Whatever is the case, not only does Vulkan fail to turn Corax, he fails to eliminate him, too. The rescuers from the Vlka Fenryka beat back Vulkan's coup de grace. Vulkan, for his part, isn't captured nor is he killed. Indeed, much of his strength must have withdrawn with him if they are to remain a threat in the following years of the heresy. Which begs the question, what actual strength did Vulkan have? His Legion were never the largest and hardly ever seemed to be capable of becoming one. Then there is the events of Miral, which must have depleted his Legion to a degree.

 

In that case, what else could he have brought to the fray? Additional Ultramarine troops*? Possibly. Mortal elements? Almost certainly. Titans? Probably not. Skitarii? Again, probably not.

 

Regardless, Russ's Space Wolves should send them packing. I think, at this point, we would need to think of what else to do with Russ in the early heresy to justify him splitting his force. Well, split it further than it already may have been. 

 

* I would suggest, if any, to place the Aurorans under Vulkan's command, seeing as they were supposedly green even before the canon Chapter became an entity of itself. With this in mind, it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility for the Aurorans to disguise themselves so that it appears that Vulkan has a good sized army, when push comes to shove. 

 

As for the vision, I concur that it should happen on Deliverance. The aftermath of the event, though, might end up being a literal witch-hunt with Corax allowing his anti-psyker sentiment to boil over and push him to banish or execute them. This policy would only last until some time after Corax dies/disappears - the Emperor's ruling to the contrary would be reiterated at some point, and the Raven Guard would have to grudgingly allow Librarians. 

 

Regarding the Legion sizes, a bit of manipulation is all that's required. Let's have the DA be larger and emphasise their 'unknown resources' more as this gives more leeway to have Luther's loyalists as well. As they don't obtain the Gene tech from Corax, the Alpha legion would work as being smaller (For reasons I will talk about below) and having the Iron Warriors still garrison planets makes them more spread out and means that the siege of Terra is closer fought. The Emperor's Children also work well as a smaller legion.

In regards to the Iron Warriors - they are more techno-guerrillas in this 'verse. They won't be terribly well suited to garrisoning duties any more. That particular task would be handed to Dorn, iirc.  

 

I do like the idea of Guilliman taking a completely different approach to Horus. If we have Guilliman focus more on the Empire building part and making sure that the foundations of his rebellion are stronger fits his command style better and allows us to explore a different path than Horus's 'let's take Terra as quickly as possible'. If he focuses on the Empire building part then we can have the Ultramarines be larger and able to replace most losses quickly due to a huge recruitment pool (similar to Ancient Rome. It's one of the reasons why the Romans were so successful). It also means that the Alpha Legion find it more difficult to achieve their desired style of warfare if they can't subvert populations as easily, causing them to take higher losses.

 

Indeed, the GH is a war of attrition whereas the HH is a decapitation strike on a galactic scale. The large recruitment base for the Ultramarines has been the crux of their vast numbers here (and the Apothecarion Edict, too). Hence partly why his rebellion doesn't simply fold after the opening stages. Planning, strategy and attrition are the name of the game here.

 

With regards to the Salamander forces on Namm, demons are always a possibilty and it's highly likely that traitor guard was involved to at least some extent. It may also be interesting to have at least a few titans on the Salamander side. I can see Warhound titans with the massive flamers being utilised by Vulkan in order to burn away the jungle. A contigent of Ultramarines is basically guaranteed, and if we're going with a rivalry between the Lion and Guilliman then I can definitely see the DA being there to some extent (Dreadwing would be a good possibility). 

 

So, we have Vulkan going quiet after Miral only for him to request a meeting with Corax. Both brothers were close, but with battle-lines being drawn and Corax knowing that the Salamanders were present at Miral leads him to be suspicious of Vulkan and to request support from Russ and Perturabo. Perturabo, busy on Terra and already suspicious of Corax and his methods of war does not answer the call for support. Russ does, but cannot reach Corax by the agreed upon meeting date. Corax and Vulkan mutually agree on a meeting on the jungle world of Namm, with both of them confident that if it comes to blows the terrain will be favourable to their sides. Corax goes ahead with the meeting based on the fact that the Salamanders, never a large Legion, must be depleted by the conflict at Miral at so he is confident that even if his style of warfare becomes unsuitable he will be able to simply overpower the Salamanders through sheer weight of numbers. However, despite the seemingly advantageous position, Corax is drawn into a trap where he cannot use his favoured style of warfare and also does not have the resources to win outright or even easily fight his way off the planet.

 

After weeks of strike and fade attacks, and almost being killed at the hands of his Brother before escaping to his surviving fleet, Russ and his wolves arrive. Faced with fresh enemy reinforcements and a highly capable naval commander, Vulkan withdraws his remaining forces. However, before withdrawing Vulkan reduces the once lush, verdant world of Namm to an ashen husk forever as an act of spite (No gene-seed to recover) to his brother and the Imperium he has betrayed.

 

Also, my bad regarding the Iron warriors. Been a long time since I read up on them in this universe.

[Olis]

With regards to the Salamander forces on Namm, demons are always a possibilty and it's highly likely that traitor guard was involved to at least some extent. It may also be interesting to have at least a few titans on the Salamander side. I can see Warhound titans with the massive flamers being utilised by Vulkan in order to burn away the jungle. A contigent of Ultramarines is basically guaranteed, and if we're going with a rivalry between the Lion and Guilliman then I can definitely see the DA being there to some extent (Dreadwing would be a good possibility). 

 

So, we have Vulkan going quiet after Miral only for him to request a meeting with Corax. Both brothers were close, but with battle-lines being drawn and Corax knowing that the Salamanders were present at Miral leads him to be suspicious of Vulkan and to request support from Russ and Perturabo. Perturabo, busy on Terra and already suspicious of Corax and his methods of war does not answer the call for support. Russ does, but cannot reach Corax by the agreed upon meeting date. Corax and Vulkan mutually agree on a meeting on the jungle world of Namm, with both of them confident that if it comes to blows the terrain will be favourable to their sides. Corax goes ahead with the meeting based on the fact that the Salamanders, never a large Legion, must be depleted by the conflict at Miral at so he is confident that even if his style of warfare becomes unsuitable he will be able to simply overpower the Salamanders through sheer weight of numbers. However, despite the seemingly advantageous position, Corax is drawn into a trap where he cannot use his favoured style of warfare and also does not have the resources to win outright or even easily fight his way off the planet.

 

After weeks of strike and fade attacks, and almost being killed at the hands of his Brother before escaping to his surviving fleet, Russ and his wolves arrive. Faced with fresh enemy reinforcements and a highly capable naval commander, Vulkan withdraws his remaining forces. However, before withdrawing Vulkan reduces the once lush, verdant world of Namm to an ashen husk forever as an act of spite (No gene-seed to recover) to his brother and the Imperium he has betrayed.

 

Sounds like a good narrative. :tu:

And daemons! I knew I was forgetting something! Warpcraft, portals, daemonic weapons... there's Vulkan's big advantage. He'd show up, begging for Corax's indulgence only for Corax's initially larger force to be suddenly and instantly outnumbered. Through these portals the rest of the Salamanders, the Aurorans, the mortal regiments and daemons would pour. Promethian fire and warp flame would burn swathes of the forests to cinders in minutes. Armoured columns would establish beachheads from those portals soon after. The fleet in orbit would find itself amongst an entire fleet of enemy ships, appearing as if out of nowhere. 

 

A stray Warhound, warped from the caress of Slaanesh, fells burning trunks with a whip crack of tentacle-appendages, it's Inferno gun engulfing entire squads of retreating Raven Guard. The Nineteenth scatter, committed to remaining planetside and determined to avenge the fallen. 

 

Russ, perhaps delayed by the warp, arrives weeks too late. Or, in others eyes, at precisely the right time... 

 

Perturabo... actually, with Perturabo I'd have him elsewhere than Terra. At this point the Fists are reinforcing Terra, having yet to fall. The Iron Warriors? Maybe they're containing the initial outbreak of civil war, fighting to maintain same semblance of order behind the new frontline of a new war. 

 

The Dark Angels... including them is a new idea. I don't think we've fully explored the beginning of the heresy with the Lion - the whys and wherefores of his fall. Perhaps this could be his affirmation to the Chaos Gods that he has committed to the rebellion. Sending a Wing of the Hexagrammaton might be his first overture to his rebelling brothers that he is standing with them. I feel he could also be the one behind the attempt to court the Khan, one that sees the Khan secede... 

 

But, yeah. I like this direction with Namn.

 

Also, my bad regarding the Iron warriors. Been a long time since I read up on them in this universe.

No big deal, brother. I won't expect anyone, including me and Conn to remember everything that this project has produced.

[SixOfOne]

 

With regards to the Salamander forces on Namm, demons are always a possibilty and it's highly likely that traitor guard was involved to at least some extent. It may also be interesting to have at least a few titans on the Salamander side. I can see Warhound titans with the massive flamers being utilised by Vulkan in order to burn away the jungle. A contigent of Ultramarines is basically guaranteed, and if we're going with a rivalry between the Lion and Guilliman then I can definitely see the DA being there to some extent (Dreadwing would be a good possibility). 

 

So, we have Vulkan going quiet after Miral only for him to request a meeting with Corax. Both brothers were close, but with battle-lines being drawn and Corax knowing that the Salamanders were present at Miral leads him to be suspicious of Vulkan and to request support from Russ and Perturabo. Perturabo, busy on Terra and already suspicious of Corax and his methods of war does not answer the call for support. Russ does, but cannot reach Corax by the agreed upon meeting date. Corax and Vulkan mutually agree on a meeting on the jungle world of Namm, with both of them confident that if it comes to blows the terrain will be favourable to their sides. Corax goes ahead with the meeting based on the fact that the Salamanders, never a large Legion, must be depleted by the conflict at Miral at so he is confident that even if his style of warfare becomes unsuitable he will be able to simply overpower the Salamanders through sheer weight of numbers. However, despite the seemingly advantageous position, Corax is drawn into a trap where he cannot use his favoured style of warfare and also does not have the resources to win outright or even easily fight his way off the planet.

 

After weeks of strike and fade attacks, and almost being killed at the hands of his Brother before escaping to his surviving fleet, Russ and his wolves arrive. Faced with fresh enemy reinforcements and a highly capable naval commander, Vulkan withdraws his remaining forces. However, before withdrawing Vulkan reduces the once lush, verdant world of Namm to an ashen husk forever as an act of spite (No gene-seed to recover) to his brother and the Imperium he has betrayed.

 

Sounds like a good narrative.

And daemons! I knew I was forgetting something! Warpcraft, portals, daemonic weapons... there's Vulkan's big advantage. He'd show up, begging for Corax's indulgence only for Corax's initially larger force to be suddenly and instantly outnumbered. Through these portals the rest of the Salamanders, the Aurorans, the mortal regiments and daemons would pour. Promethian fire and warp flame would burn swathes of the forests to cinders in minutes. Armoured columns would establish beachheads from those portals soon after. The fleet in orbit would find itself amongst an entire fleet of enemy ships, appearing as if out of nowhere. 

 

A stray Warhound, warped from the caress of Slaanesh, fells burning trunks with a whip crack of tentacle-appendages, it's Inferno gun engulfing entire squads of retreating Raven Guard. The Nineteenth scatter, committed to remaining planetside and determined to avenge the fallen. 

 

Russ, perhaps delayed by the warp, arrives weeks too late. Or, in others eyes, at precisely the right time... 

 

Perturabo... actually, with Perturabo I'd have him elsewhere than Terra. At this point the Fists are reinforcing Terra, having yet to fall. The Iron Warriors? Maybe they're containing the initial outbreak of civil war, fighting to maintain same semblance of order behind the new frontline of a new war. 

 

The Dark Angels... including them is a new idea. I don't think we've fully explored the beginning of the heresy with the Lion - the whys and wherefores of his fall. Perhaps this could be his affirmation to the Chaos Gods that he has committed to the rebellion. Sending a Wing of the Hexagrammaton might be his first overture to his rebelling brothers that he is standing with them. I feel he could also be the one behind the attempt to court the Khan, one that sees the Khan secede... 

 

But, yeah. I like this direction with Namn.

 

Also, my bad regarding the Iron warriors. Been a long time since I read up on them in this universe.

No big deal, brother. I won't expect anyone, including me and Conn to remember everything that this project has produced.

 

 

I made a successful contribution! Well done me.

 

Anyways, I think having small numbers of Dark Angels with various traitor groups before he's publicly declared for Guilliman is a nice touch. It provides him with  a a way to keep watch over the other traitor legions as well as some slightly plausible deniability if necessary. He wants to become Warmaster, so having him keep watch over everything would fit this. I could see the Lion going to try to convince the Khan. Maybe he attempts to offer the Khan something, only for the Khan (who has only ever been close to Magnus and Horus) to rebuke him. I think what happens with the White Scars needs to be expanded upon. Magnus isn't censured here, so why does he turn renegade? Sanguinius going to convince him could work as well bearing in mind that they came up with the Librarius along with Magnus.

 

Regarding the Iron Warriors, the idea of them trying to contain the initial outbreak of the Heresy is good. Maybe have them mainly stationed in and around the main routes to Terra in order to try an gain a better picture of the situation and work out who is loyal and who isn't. 

[Olis]

so why does he turn renegade? 

 

In a nutshell, he doesn't trust anyone. Both sides try to bring him in from the cold but, because of both sides either not getting it right (aka start shooting) or not proving themselves worthy, he just flips the bird and secedes. Basically.

[Conn Eremon]

Regarding Khan and his renegade status, it's because he gets hit by both sides. He's offered a place among the traitors, and I can't remember who makes that offer. The Lion could certainly work. Turning it down, the traitorous forces don't just up and leave. You're either with us or against us.

 

The White Scars survive the attack, and make for the safety of numbers. In this case, the relatively nearby Emperor's Children.

 

However, that the meeting occurred is no secret. Fulgrim is aware that the Khan has met with the Lion, and the Third Legion have already been burned by supposedly loyal forces at Miral. They refuse to take further chances, and the fact that the Fifth defend themselves only damns them further in the Phoenician's eyes, and in the eyes of those that he speaks of this day to.

 

It's entirely a tragic affair, the only thing that keeps the Khan from being loyal in this universe is the paranoia and suspicions that permeate at this particular period of our Heresy. By defying the Lion, all of the traitorous forces deem him the enemy. By meeting with the Lion, the loyalist forces refuse to trust him. Simply because the Khan defended himself and his sons, he is forced to continue to do so.

[SixOfOne]

 

so why does he turn renegade? 

 

In a nutshell, he doesn't trust anyone. Both sides try to bring him in from the cold but, because of both sides either not getting it right (aka start shooting) or not proving themselves worthy, he just flips the bird and secedes. Basically.

 

 

 

Regarding Khan and his renegade status, it's because he gets hit by both sides. He's offered a place among the traitors, and I can't remember who makes that offer. The Lion could certainly work. Turning it down, the traitorous forces don't just up and leave. You're either with us or against us.

 

The White Scars survive the attack, and make for the safety of numbers. In this case, the relatively nearby Emperor's Children.

 

However, that the meeting occurred is no secret. Fulgrim is aware that the Khan has met with the Lion, and the Third Legion have already been burned by supposedly loyal forces at Miral. They refuse to take further chances, and the fact that the Fifth defend themselves only damns them further in the Phoenician's eyes, and in the eyes of those that he speaks of this day to.

 

It's entirely a tragic affair, the only thing that keeps the Khan from being loyal in this universe is the paranoia and suspicions that permeate at this particular period of our Heresy. By defying the Lion, all of the traitorous forces deem him the enemy. By meeting with the Lion, the loyalist forces refuse to trust him. Simply because the Khan defended himself and his sons, he is forced to continue to do so.

 

Having just re-read through the thread yeah, I'd completely forgotten all of that. Then again it has been a while since I read through it all. I do like what happens to the Khan. It's very 40k in that it really should never have happened. 

 

I'll probably start thinking about what happens to the Raven Guard after Namn if that's ok. Don't want to intrude upon any ideas that people may already have.

 

A thought regarding the Custodes after the Heresy. I quite like the idea of them becoming even more paranoid than they normally are and becoming incredibly distrustful of anyone that isn't The Emperor, one of the 10,000 or a Sister of Silence. I know some of them in canon are already like this, but it would be interesting to see it amplified. Them showing more of a presence on Terra would be interesting as well.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm trying to remember all of what we've already done with the Custodes. We know that the combined strengths of the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves are focused upon the Imperial Webway, the former within and the latter without. Leading to Prospero and Fenris becoming the first great nexuses outside of Terra itself, though others would eventually come to the fore.

 

The Custodes would, logically, still be a powerful presence. There's no great tear that leads to the canon Webway War, but nonetheless they are ever at the Emperor's side and this is his greatest project.

 

But we also have the Custodes taking a primary role within the Investigatus, replacing Inquisitors as Investigators. With the Emperor not being gone, no institution can just claim to represent His highest authority, as the Inquisition does. So it'd fall to those who already have it: the Custodes.

 

With the canon Investigates being the Sisters of Silence and the Great Tithe, and with the Sisters of Silence often being paired with the Custodes under the umbrella of the Agents of the Emperor, the role of custodes-investigates won't need to change while we rework it according to what's in canon.

 

Between the Webway, the Emperor and Investigates, that should cover them.

 

What're your guys's thoughts? Anything need to be reworked or can be fit in?

[SixOfOne]

I'm trying to remember all of what we've already done with the Custodes. We know that the combined strengths of the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves are focused upon the Imperial Webway, the former within and the latter without. Leading to Prospero and Fenris becoming the first great nexuses outside of Terra itself, though others would eventually come to the fore.

 

The Custodes would, logically, still be a powerful presence. There's no great tear that leads to the canon Webway War, but nonetheless they are ever at the Emperor's side and this is his greatest project.

 

But we also have the Custodes taking a primary role within the Investigatus, replacing Inquisitors as Investigators. With the Emperor not being gone, no institution can just claim to represent His highest authority, as the Inquisition does. So it'd fall to those who already have it: the Custodes.

 

With the canon Investigates being the Sisters of Silence and the Great Tithe, and with the Sisters of Silence often being paired with the Custodes under the umbrella of the Agents of the Emperor, the role of custodes-investigates won't need to change while we rework it according to what's in canon.

 

Between the Webway, the Emperor and Investigates, that should cover them.

 

What're your guys's thoughts? Anything need to be reworked or can be fit in?

 

I don't mind the idea of Custodes as inquisitor replacements, but I don't think that role really suits them. They are bodyguards first and foremost and are singular in that purpose. I would instead change the system so that you don't have Inquisitors that 'speak with His voice' but who perform the role of investigator when necessary. Then we could have them sometimes be accompanied by a Custodian to really get the message across. The original idea is not bad by any means, but but just doesn't really fit in my mind.

[Conn Eremon]

Yeah, a lot of what we've been led to assume with the Custodes certainly makes them an odd choice, I'll admit. I'm not entirely sure when the decision was made, or what our reasoning was at the time, but further exploration of the Custodes' role in canon certainly has given retroactive confirmation. We're now finding that their actual role as bodyguards is more a label than a full description of their duties, and beneath that umbrella they've cast for themselves a very wide net of duties and responsibilities. The simple task of guarding the Emperor's body is now known to be but a fraction of what the Custodes as an agency do.

 

For example, a Black Library short story depicts the Custodes performing the very investigating duties we propose on Terra itself. According to FW, they are the Chamber Militant of the Imperial Household, their authority within accorded duty incontestable except by the direct and expressed word of the Master of Mankind, and their legal remit is the entirety of the Emperor's domain. More than just His guard, they were His watchmen and direct agents of His will.

 

It's a lot like the US Secret Service, in that while they're more popularly known as bodyguards for the highest office, their actual role is quite expansive and does include investigative and law enforcement duties. And a lot of the colorful turns of phrase used to describe these additional duties held by the Custodes are also often used to describe those of the later Inquisition.

 

now, all that said, I don't think the intention was to say that all Custodes are Investigators, or that all Investigators are Custodes.

[GuillimanHeretic]

Guys, I've been busy today but it's given me time to think. I've decided I definitely need to start a new thread soon. To avoid confusion, I'll either call it Guilliman's Gambit or The Guilliman Gambit. It's an alright name, but on Deviantart it'll always be the Guilliman Heresy.... a different flavour but still the Guilliman Heresy.

 

I also think that one of the root causes of why it's so different is that I'm into this for a different reason. The main selling points of the GH universe were the Emperor being alive and most of the Legions being switched around, so my favourite traitor Legions are loyalist, and the dull and overwhelmingly popular Ultramarines and Blood Angels were traitors. I want something that supersedes the canon storyline, at least for me. I've always found the hardest thing to deal with in 40k is it's constant grim tone. So my relationship with canon is always going to be different.

 

A bizarre side effect of that is the need to take what I like from canon and "save" it like I'm building a Noah's Ark. Rather than wanting to create something entirely different from canon just for variety and fun. I'm looking for a replacement... for some reason it's similar but different in different ways. That's why I keep singing from different hymn sheets. So to speak. It can have its darkness and tragedy, like the events that cause Jaghatai Khan to secede. But I need more variety, and some sort of silver lining through it. I'm not British, so apparently I don't "crave despair" or whatever it is UK comedians like Bill Bailey talk about.

 

I started thinking that I was the only one who would keep the GH flame going and that I needed to flesh it out, but it's slowly turning into it's own beast. So it's best for everyone that I start transitioning away from this and into a new thread/timeline. Still, if I'm not too busy with Uni and other projects, maybe I can juggle both. If there's anything I can add or feedback I can give, or anything I can write or draw for this, I'll definitely think about it.

 

I know something you probably don't have yet. A detailed M31 timeline. It seems like the easiest and best way to keep everything clear and put it all in perspective, especially the 50 year gap between the events of the HH in canon and the events of the GH. I was working on it a while ago, I need to dig it out and get back to it. I'll need help filling in the main blank area between 014.M31 and 050.M31.

 

On a slightly different tack: Dark Angels ---> Dark Apostles. The part of me that hates literary convenience recoils at the idea but there is a part of me that finds the idea... curious. I know the Omega Legion is the only traitorous one to fully change their name atm and I know various Chaos Factions have their own identity (the Crusader Host for example), so what I'm considering is the ongoing development of distinctiveness. Maybe the 'Dark Apostles' direction is not one that me and Conn will likely implement but at the very least the discourse about it will yield fruit. There's plenty of Dark Angels around in this heresy, so maybe a warband of them might decide to call themselves the 'Apostles' for some reason.

 

 

As I've said already, probably more than once, I suck at naming things. Of course it's convenient, that's kind of the point. After all, if the shoe fits, why not wear it? Still, if it doesn't suit the role you guys had in mind for the Lionist DA's, or you don't want to be tied too closely to canon, I understand. Traitor Legions keeping their old names works when it makes the most sense, or helps to emphasise the tragedy and irony. The canon Emperor's Children for example. The Imperial Heralds keep their old name in this reality with 'Word Bearers' being an unfortunate and embarrassing phase. The Blood Angels don't need a name change because it's ironic, and suits their role as Khorne's angels of death, as fallen angels and being devils in all but name. But the Lion's Dark Angels.... I just want a way to differentiate them from Luther's loyalist DA beyond having to refer to the Lion and Luther.

 

I used to think the Dark Apostles idea was so clever once... the only feedback I ever got gave me that impression anyway.

 

I do like the idea of Guilliman taking a completely different approach to Horus. If we have Guilliman focus more on the Empire building part and making sure that the foundations of his rebellion are stronger fits his command style better and allows us to explore a different path than Horus's 'let's take Terra as quickly as possible'. If he focuses on the Empire building part then we can have the Ultramarines be larger and able to replace most losses quickly due to a huge recruitment pool (similar to Ancient Rome. It's one of the reasons why the Romans were so successful). It also means that the Alpha Legion find it more difficult to achieve their desired style of warfare if they can't subvert populations as easily, causing them to take higher losses.

 

 

Indeed, the GH is a war of attrition whereas the HH is a decapitation strike on a galactic scale. The large recruitment base for the Ultramarines has been the crux of their vast numbers here (and the Apothecarion Edict, too). Hence partly why his rebellion doesn't simply fold after the opening stages. Planning, strategy and attrition are the name of the game here.

 

 

 

 

I think this is where Guilliman and the Lion differ, as well. Guilliman being all about delayed gratification, the Lion being all about a fast, decapitation strike. Hence the botched assault on Terra.

 

Before I forget, I had an idea regarding Lleman Russ, to make him different from canon. It comes from the original Rogue Trader Wh40k rulebook. Russ is illustrated as the founder of the Space Wolves (rather than a Primarch). He suffered severe alviola damage during acid storms on Susa, and transplanted with a cybron-osmotic gill.

 

http://i.imgur.com/06ib3Cl.jpg

 

What if this happened to our Russ? As a way of leading up to his ultimate fate. I seem to remember something about being ambushed by Iron Hands, like a scene from Star Wars Episode III where a Twi-lek Jedi is ambushed by her Clone patrol, on a tropical jungle planet, and with walking tanks behind her. So how about that still happens, but Russ willingly walks into the trap because he's lost the will to live and is sick of his compromised existence? Would that make it suicide? If so, would that make sense? He's withered and his skin is shrivelled up, and he can't enjoy life anymore, he can't have banquets and sing songs. So he's looking for a death in battle on purpose.

Edited August 7, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

*snip*

 

I think, to me, Custodes won't be field agents often - that's what mortals and other members of the Imperium are for - but it won't be unheard of for something significant for the Investigatus to warrant one of the Ten Thousand to attach himself to a case. Maybe a grand plot to seize a major webway materium nexus has come to light and communication with the nexus liaisons has been lost, along with the sector they are in...

 

Guys, I've been busy today but it's given me time to think. I've decided I definitely need to start a new thread soon. To avoid confusion, I'll either call it Guilliman's Gambit or The Guilliman Gambit. It's an alright name, but on Deviantart it'll always be the Guilliman Heresy.... a different flavour but still the Guilliman Heresy.

 

I also think that one of the root causes of why it's so different is that I'm into this for a different reason. The main selling points of the GH universe were the Emperor being alive and most of the Legions being switched around, so my favourite traitor Legions are loyalist, and the dull and overwhelmingly popular Ultramarines and Blood Angels were traitors. I want something that supersedes the canon storyline, at least for me. I've always found the hardest thing to deal with in 40k is it's constant grim tone. So my relationship with canon is always going to be different.

 

A bizarre side effect of that is the need to take what I like from canon and "save" it like I'm building a Noah's Ark. Rather than wanting to create something entirely different from canon just for variety and fun. I'm looking for a replacement... for some reason it's similar but different in different ways. That's why I keep singing from different hymn sheets. So to speak. It can have its darkness and tragedy, like the events that cause Jaghatai Khan to secede. But I need more variety, and some sort of silver lining through it. I'm not British, so apparently I don't "crave despair" or whatever it is UK comedians like Bill Bailey talk about.

 

I started thinking that I was the only one who would keep the GH flame going and that I needed to flesh it out, but it's slowly turning into it's own beast. So it's best for everyone that I start transitioning away from this and into a new thread/timeline. Still, if I'm not too busy with Uni and other projects, maybe I can juggle both. If there's anything I can add or feedback I can give, or anything I can write or draw for this, I'll definitely think about it.

 

I know something you probably don't have yet. A detailed M31 timeline. It seems like the easiest and best way to keep everything clear and put it all in perspective, especially the 50 year gap between the events of the HH in canon and the events of the GH. I was working on it a while ago, I need to dig it out and get back to it. I'll need help filling in the main blank area between 014.M31 and 050.M31.

 

While I can't be naive and assume that anything that gets thrown up here would automatically be kosher for you, I am a little sad that you're making your own way because of creative differences. That said, I wish you luck. Hopefully the 'Hobart edit' will gain some life of it's own, maybe even becoming a distinct alt.heresy of its own.

 

But it would be remiss of me not to say that I'd be happy to have you drop by. Some cross-pollination might not be out of the question... 

 

Before I forget, I had an idea regarding Lleman Russ, to make him different from canon. It comes from the original Rogue Trader Wh40k rulebook. Russ is illustrated as the founder of the Space Wolves (rather than a Primarch). He suffered severe alviola damage during acid storms on Susa, and transplanted with a cybron-osmotic gill.

 

http://i.imgur.com/06ib3Cl.jpg

 

What if this happened to our Russ? As a way of leading up to his ultimate fate. I seem to remember something about being ambushed by Iron Hands, like a scene from Star Wars Episode III where a Twi-lek Jedi is ambushed by her Clone patrol, on a tropical jungle planet, and with walking tanks behind her. So how about that still happens, but Russ willingly walks into the trap because he's lost the will to live and is sick of his compromised existence? Would that make it suicide? If so, would that make sense? He's withered and his skin is shrivelled up, and he can't enjoy life anymore, he can't have banquets and sing songs. So he's looking for a death in battle on purpose.

I think some disfigurement for Russ might be a nice change for him. I like the idea of going back to his roots and taking inspiration. I don't specifically recall an encounter with some Iron Hands... though it has been quite some time so maybe I am simply forgetting.  

 

*searches the thread*

 

Ah. Yeah. He does die against Iron Hands on Medusa during the Mars-Terra/Imperium vs Mechanicum War. Incidentally, he's also on respectful terms (though not fully friendly) with our version of Curze. Shall we wound him at the start of that war and have him die at the end? Kind of a character arc involving death and revenge. (There's a long post by Conn revolving around the death of Russ here - which speaks of him losing an eye on Mars)

[Conn Eremon]

I like the idea of Russ becoming so disfigured as to look like the old artwork. It's fitting too, as he isn't the Wolf-King here, but a more modern take.

 

Also like that his injuries, suffered in battle against Martian and Iron Hand forces, require bionic augmentation.

 

But speaking of the Sixth losing its more primitive side, I think that leaves us with just the Fifth for that kind of Legion.

 

I kinda dig the idea of the Wild Hunt being a constant threat for Imperials within the Webway. Tunnels that can fit worlds echoing with their laughter and the roar of their engines.

 

Or Hunts deep into the Maelstrom, that corrupting space they warily base themselves out of. Regularly rooting out Chaos Warbands and the like.

[GuillimanHeretic]

 

While I can't be naive and assume that anything that gets thrown up here would automatically be kosher for you, I am a little sad that you're making your own way because of creative differences. That said, I wish you luck. Hopefully the 'Hobart edit' will gain some life of it's own, maybe even becoming a distinct alt.heresy of its own.

 

But it would be remiss of me not to say that I'd be happy to have you drop by. Some cross-pollination might not be out of the question... 

 

 

Of course, anything I can do to help. Anyway, I'd better get started on that first post.

[Olis]

Situation report: I have collected a couple of pictures, amalgamated notes/posts/ideas and begun writing - the Namn Massacre will be fleshed out at some point soon. ^_^

[GuillimanHeretic]

Are any of the Primarchs Perpetuals? Aside from Sanguinius. Is Vulkan a Perpetual like in canon or not? I can't remember if it was mentioned or not. Are any other Perpetuals from canon still alive? Just in case I want to do something with John Grammaticus or Ollanius Pius or Alivia Sureka.

 

If a new Perpetual Primarch on the loyalist side is needed, I'd suggest Lorgar...? He is considered the weakest of the Primarchs so it would give him something good going for him, and in case anyone else thinks of him as Vulkan's closest counterpart. Anyway it's just my suggestion.

Edited August 10, 2017 by GuillimanHeretic

[Olis]

Are any of the Primarchs Perpetuals? Aside from Sanguinius. Is Vulkan a Perpetual like in canon or not? I can't remember if it was mentioned or not. Are any other Perpetuals from canon still alive? Just in case I want to do something with John Grammaticus or Ollanius Pius or Alivia Sureka.

 

If a new Perpetual Primarch on the loyalist side is needed, I'd suggest Lorgar...? He is considered the weakest of the Primarchs so it would give him something good going for him, and in case anyone else thinks of him as Vulkan's closest counterpart. Anyway it's just my suggestion.

 

I... don't believe perpetuals have been discussed. Mainly because most of the GH material popped up before perpetuals in canon were big news. Least of all Vulkan being one. I would be inclined to strip Vulkan of any perpetual traits he may have, tbh.

 

The subject is wide open, I suppose. 

[Conn Eremon]

It's true that the subject of perpetuals was never approached, as the canon concept was as yet undeveloped, but I actually disagree about stripping Vulkan of his perpetualness for a couple reasons.

 

One, the changes already in place don't affect his perpetual status, so removing it would be an additional departure point rather than a progression from an existing departure point. Wouldn't be the first time we've done so, though.

 

Two, Vulkan's story arc as a perpetual in some ways mirrors our own narrative. Namely, that both on Isstvan III and Miral, Vulkan is lost presumed dead. In both, he actually survived but was captured and horribly tortured. In both, the torture leaves lasting mental scars. In canon, it's his brother Curze as the torturer, and it's the efforts of his sons that bring him back. In ours, the torturer is a god (or at the very least powerful daemons in the same vein as Fulgrim's descent), and it's the efforts of Vulkan that complete the corruption of the sons.

 

In canon, his perpetualness allowed Curze's torture to reach unheard of levels, because he could literally kill his victim and he'd just come back. While certainly, Curze just wanted to torture for his own sadistic reasons, and certainly, being tortured by Slaanesh is a whole other level of magnitude, but retaining that cycle of death and rebirth can go a long way to explaining why Vulkan came out of it damned.

 

The third and much more subjective reason, is that it would mean his perpetualness would be utterly unimportant from that point on. When he becomes a Daemon Prince, he'll have an entirely different kind of immortality. I'm not a fan of him being a perpetual in the first place, so honestly this is kind of a way to keep it from being handed to another Primarch instead.