The Guilliman Heresy

Conn Eremon · January 15, 2013

Well, the Heresy is going to be the first, and we'll release nothing finalized on the post-Heresy stuff until the Heresy is finished, but any and all discussions are welcome.

First thing we need to look at is how would what we have already established change those canon events. Goge Vandire was the head of the Ministorum, something that only exists in canon. There is no God-Emperor in the Guilliman Heresy, thanks to the efforts of the Imperial Heralds and the Iteratus Agnostica. I have attempted to add in a period of internal strife during that time, though. As the Necron Awakening begins to dwindle away, huge chunks of the Imperium will secede from the government that took everything from them and left them defenseless. Everything was thrown at the Necrons, and those Sectors that got stripped regardless of their own dangers and threats they had to face choose to secede and stand for themselves. This period will be equivalent to the civil wars raged during the time of Vandire's reign.

As for Huron Blackheart, there are no Red Corsairs, or Astral Claws. However, the Maelstrom is the center of the White Scars' powerbase. I know I've mentioned an equivalent event, but I can't remember what it is. It's somewhere in the first thread. However, a White Scar vs. Imperium event could easily take its place.

It appears I was ninja'd just barely by Olisredan.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Cormac Airt

Olis · January 15, 2013

It appears I was ninja'd just barely by Olisredan.

Some days you get the bear and on others the bear gets you. :P

That said, although we gave seperate answers, it seems we're both thinking along the same lines, which is a good thing. :tu:

Wade Garrett · January 16, 2013

Well, if any discussion is welcome, how about this:

Instead of Huron's Space Marine Pirates..

Cowboy Night Lords!

I know that's bizarre but hear me out. The Imperium has several frontier regions, yes? Regions where a group of Night Lords could ride in, declare themselves "The Law" and wind up more or less running things via dispensation of frontier justice (See Tom Horn or Roy Bean) to the point that they are more or less ruling the region.

The Imperium at large tells them they've overstepped their authority and they need to step down, the Night Lord replies that his rule is more just than how things were, why don't you make me stand down? Cue Badab War style conflict with a heavy seasoning of spaghetti Western. (This faction of Night Lords might adopt dusters worn over their power armor, to differentiate themselves from regular Sons of Curze and give them that Wild West feel. Something like the Elite Rangers in the videogame Fallout New Vegas)

Edit:

Will unpack this notion now that I've had time to consider angles.

Unlike the canon Badab War, which I'd imagine resulted in a closer watch being placed on Chapter Masters and a lessening of Astartes capability for independent action, this conflict results in the Night Lords being given extordinary privilieges in terms of serving as a seperate law enforcement body within the Imperium.

After all, in your basic Western movie, the men trying to bring some law to the frontier are outnumbered, outgunned, and in the right, and so it is here.

It's the Imperial and Mechanicum in this sector who are in the wrong, with offenses ranging from "merely" allowing Rogue Trader dynasties to squeeze every drop they can from the hapless frontiersfolk, to cutting deals with White Scar, Salamander, Ork, and Dark Eldar raiders and bandits.

And it is into this snake pit of corruption that a small group of Night Lords is dispatched, to bring justice. They're cut off from the rest of their chapter, and the corruption reaches so high that Iron Warrior, Space Wolf, and even other Night Lord forces are dispatched to rein them in as the bodies and bolt shells pile up (the Wolves are still the "Executioner" Legion in this timeline, right?) But even if they have to face off with their own brothers, they won't stand down. Because there has to be some law.

Oh, and the dusters? The planet where the main NL base in this sector is located has corrosive elements in its dust and rainfall, that can cause problems with even Astartes armor. They started wearing duster jacket style coverings over their armor, and it became a standard issue kit for all the Night Lords assigned to this sector, also it was a way to identify who was your brother and who was trying to kill you once other Night Lord forces showed up trying to gun them down.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Wade Garrett

ShasVa · January 16, 2013

I have not been back here for a while, and I find that the forum itself has changed. However...

I have just read through the GH Timeline on the first page, and I am so proud of what it has become. That I took a simple change to the 40k lore and, with the help of some good co-writers, turned it into THIS, is simply amazing.

My thanks to all those who have ever contributed to the project to any degree since it's inception well over a year ago. :D

Conn Eremon · January 16, 2013

Well, if any discussion is welcome, how about this:

Instead of Huron's Space Marine Pirates..

Cowboy Night Lords!

I laughed. I laughed.

I know that's bizarre but hear me out. The Imperium has several frontier regions, yes? Regions where a group of Night Lords could ride in, declare themselves "The Law" and wind up more or less running things via dispensation of frontier justice (See Tom Horn or Roy Bean) to the point that they are more or less ruling the region.

The Imperium at large tells them they've overstepped their authority and they need to step down, the Night Lord replies that his rule is more just than how things were, why don't you make me stand down? Cue Badab War style conflict with a heavy seasoning of spaghetti Western. (This faction of Night Lords might adopt dusters worn over their power armor, to differentiate themselves from regular Sons of Curze and give them that Wild West feel. Something like the Elite Rangers in the videogame Fallout New Vegas)

Not a bad idea, and it's an interesting twist on the Night Lords. It does rather fit with their character, as the vigilante types are a frequent sight in the Legion and the old Wild West, lone gunmen, frontiersmen law men image is very similar. Really, it's sanctioned vigilantism.

Edit:
Will unpack this notion now that I've had time to consider angles.

Unlike the canon Badab War, which I'd imagine resulted in a closer watch being placed on Chapter Masters and a lessening of Astartes capability for independent action, this conflict results in the Night Lords being given extordinary privilieges in terms of serving as a seperate law enforcement body within the Imperium.

After all, in your basic Western movie, the men trying to bring some law to the frontier are outnumbered, outgunned, and in the right, and so it is here.

It's the Imperial and Mechanicum in this sector who are in the wrong, with offenses ranging from "merely" allowing Rogue Trader dynasties to squeeze every drop they can from the hapless frontiersfolk, to cutting deals with White Scar, Salamander, Ork, and Dark Eldar raiders and bandits.

And it is into this snake pit of corruption that a small group of Night Lords is dispatched, to bring justice. They're cut off from the rest of their chapter, and the corruption reaches so high that Iron Warrior, Space Wolf, and even other Night Lord forces are dispatched to rein them in as the bodies and bolt shells pile up (the Wolves are still the "Executioner" Legion in this timeline, right?) But even if they have to face off with their own brothers, they won't stand down. Because there has to be some law.

Oh, and the dusters? The planet where the main NL base in this sector is located has corrosive elements in its dust and rainfall, that can cause problems with even Astartes armor. They started wearing duster jacket style coverings over their armor, and it became a standard issue kit for all the Night Lords assigned to this sector, also it was a way to identify who was your brother and who was trying to kill you once other Night Lord forces showed up trying to gun them down.

I would say less that the Imperium and Scientifica (Mechanicum without the religion, GH Mechanicum is full Chaos) is in the wrong and more that their appointed representatives, the Imperial Commanders of the frontier worlds, Forge Lords, etc, have become corrupted. But they operate intelligently. They pay the taxes, keep word about their indulgences hush hush, so forth. The greater Imperium/Scientifica is ignorant of their excesses, they see only the spike in efficiency. However, their local law enforcement is notably underpowered, undermanned or both. Which catches the eye of the Night Lords, who then proceed to dispatch a taskforce to the Sector with the orders to investigate and, if need be, enforce the law.

They're not met with great hospitality. They're certainly not openly attacked, but when the powers that be on these worlds discover that the Night Lords sent to their realms have caught their scent, things start to get hairy.

And what does the greater Imperium/Scientifica notice? The Night Lords are warring on an otherwise loyal region of space, whose marked efficiency has since been spiraling down. As this is a Legion issue, other Legions are brought in to censure the Night Lords present.

Here's where I get iffy on how to proceed. Who to bring in, how far to escalate and where do we conclude it. Space Wolves can be brought in, but we have not stated anything about the Executioner thing. And it's a hot topic, I'd rather not take a stand. Better to hint at both. With the Sector being a frontier, they're far from the hub of Imperial Routes. But, they've made themselves important to the Imperium. Though ill-begotten, it's an efficient Sector. So tendrils are beginning to spread in their direction. With the Space Wolves being one of two Legions that frequent the Routes as part of its military back-up, aggressive expansions, etc, they're the first Legion in. Maybe they were ordered in because of proximity and ease of mobility, maybe it's because they were the most trusted to end a possible Legionary insurrection attempt. Who else to bring in, I don't know.

As far as escalation, what do we do? Night Lord taskforces can range from a few hundred to a single Legionaire. Say it's only a squad, or a collection of squads that divide themselves along squad lines between the frontier worlds, to keep with the gunslinger theme. That's not a sizable force and any retribution against them would be met with swift success, if in force. As the Space Wolves certainly would. So is this a short period of Guerrilla Cowboys? Or do we have the Taskforce call in aid from the greater Legion of the Night Lords, who answer their call?

And where do we conclude it? Before matters get out of hand, where the Night Lords have to be openly censured or even get forced to turn traitor? Just the taskforce, or the whole Legion? Does the greater Imperium discover the true face of the frontier worlds in time, or do they back them up to the bloody end? Does the Taskforce itself become corrupted in its pursuit for justice, whether unwittingly or not?

I say, make the period in time where it's just a taskforce on the frontier last longer. A decade or so before the Imperium itself begins to move in. Then, it's a period of cease-fires and puffed chests and hurled threats as the fleets of the Night Lords and Space Wolves face off across the empty expanse, culminating with the Night Lords barely, just barely standing down. The Legions were inches from tearing into each other before the Night Lords finally allow the Space Wolves to continue to the region. There they find that the Taskforce sent in, though they began with noble intentions and still believe they seek justice, have become themselves corrupted. They defend themselves, but are overwhelmed. Instead of being captured or killed, however, they take flight. Though small, they remain at large.

As for the frontiers, the rulers are exuberant. They successfully fooled the Imperium. But, they can't fool the Dark Eldar. Who arrive to take their share of slaves earlier than scheduled, because that's what they do. Only, they find a fleet of Space Wolves in orbit. A Legion they are well aware of, considering the wars fought in the Webway between them and the Thousand Sons against the Dark Eldar. Clearly, the idiots thought to spring a trap on them, a trap they must have sprung before being finished. The Space Wolves see a pirate fleet thinking to take an isolated system unawares. The corrupted leaders of this frontier see their world burn down around them, taking them with it.

Wade Garrett · January 17, 2013

Well, I see it as only part of the VIII Legion being involved in this, for good or ill. That's the positive of their "lack of Legion unity", while it makes it hard to get the whole Legion working towards a single goal it also means that any higher ups who go off the reservation can only take their immediate subordinates with them, sort of what the canon Chapter system is supposed to accomplish. (That, and being a Legion of Martin Riggs, John Mclanes, Marion Cobrettis, and Sledge Hammers is going to make forging a clear chain of command a bit..difficult. Or have I misunderstood the theme of the GH Lords as a Legion of Rogue Cops on the Edge Who Don't Play By the Rules, as compared to Canon Sneaky Serial Killers Who Like Bats?)

And I certainly meant that it was only the local Imperium/Scientifica who were corrupt, not the realm as a whole, sorry if I wasn't clearer on that. That's actually another theme in a lot of Westerns, the U.S. Marshals, U.S. Army, or the Rangers may be good guys but they're a long way off, and the local marshal is in the black hats back pocket. As to what other Legions to drag in...the Iron Warriors have close ties to the Scientifica, right? And assuming they're a bit similar to canon, they have that "X amount of blood shed is a reasonable price for achieving objective Y" that could lead to them clashing with the much more "We see things in black and white" Night Lords.

As for how things develop...at first it's the Night Lords defending the fringe planets against the various Orks, Salamanders, pirates, rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, *cuss*-kickers, *cuss*-kickers, and Methodists, and being undermined by the crooked local authorties, to the the point that they decide to start hanging and shooting said local authorites, cue elements of the Imperial armed forces and other Astartes being brought in against them.

I see their forces being sort of like the Tyrant's Guard from the original Badab war, you've got the core of Night Lords with allies ranging from grizzled ex Guardsmen, hard bitten hunters and trappers, peaceful farmers with improvised weapons made from farming tools, allied contingents of tribals who use tomahawks and arrows, and so on. With them being reinforced by heavier elements from the Night Lords main chapters (perhaps the Night Lord Leader, who by Curze is going to have Cypher's "Gunslinger" special rule, calls for aid from chapter brothers he knows he can trust).

As for them going corrupt in the end...at first I didn't like it, but looking at this we are still in the grim darkness of the far future, falling into damnation by trying to cling to ideals of justice and law is a 40K staple.

In that case, I see the Night Lord leader making a deal with Chaos to save his forces from the final attack by the Iron Warriors, Wolves, and whoever else, with him fleeing to become a sort of "Hanging Judge" figure who stages mock trials before his warships execute Exterminatus attacks on the Imperium's worlds.

("All have sinned. The wages of sin is death. I believe you can figure out how things go from here, little man.")

ChromeZephyr · January 17, 2013

I hit "mugs, pugs..." and started laughing because I could hear Harvey Korman in my head. Well done, sir.

Conn Eremon · January 17, 2013

I'd rather the Taskforce go renegade, non-Chaos. The sort of renegades that are still loyal to their ideal of the Imperium, if not the actual Imperium. Any transition to Chaos should follow the initial betrayal, as a slow decay for survival. Think Soul Drinkers rather than Red Corsairs. No actual deals, just misguided loyalty.

Iron Warriors are different, but we haven't expanded on how this affects their demeanor. Really, that 'x to y' comment you made should still fit, I think. But their siegecraft is now a pre-Primarch thing. With Perturabo having a background akin to Corax's, his stage entrance creates a Legion that mixes siegecraft with guerilla warfare, ultimately creating a Legion specializing in urban warfare. A Legion able to operate with less resources and manpower, with an affinity for fortifications, makes a perfect force for urban environments that would split the force into small units and provide plenty of cover. Still siege-craft specialists, but not as their canon counterparts do, not as a Legion who mans the walls.

Legion of Rogue Cops on the Edge Who Don't Play By the Rules

It's a nice blanket description, but it does go further. The Legion is heavily divided among themselves in manner. The three greatest descriptors we've used are the Enforcers (by the book lawmen), Vigilantes (Civilians with their own interpretation of the law) and Ex-Criminals (Think born-again Christians, people who have wronged but now see the light). Within each three categories however, there's plenty who divide it further. Enforcers who take the law into their own hands, Vigilantes who do not deviate from the written law, Ex-Criminals who use their dark talents against their former kindred, and so forth. The idea of the Western gunmen fits in the Night Lords because the Night Lords represent every single iteration of the law. Whether by holding to it, re-interpreting it, or bending/breaking it. The Night Lords are the law. In every single possible way, good or bad. They're Judge Dredd, Gentleman Johnny Marcone, Batman, Superman, Two-Face, the Punisher, J. Edgar Hoover, Al Capone, Texas Rangers, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday, the Boondock Saints, TV's Dexter and Harry Callahan. And yes, Martin Riggs, John McLane, Marion Cobretti and Sledge Hammer (which I never knew about until now and totally want to watch).

Taskforce Guard idea is good, and can be fitting. With how much the Night Lords operate with mortal institutions (primarily the arbites), it stands to reason that their smaller forces would have an effective mortal entourage. Not altogether different from the Alpha Legion, though towards different purposes. Or the GH War Hounds, where Grand Companies are almost permanently attached to a Fleet and their Army contingent.

However, about the Legion unity and chain of command. We never really did specify who was in command and how that worked. The only thing I can recall was a heavy inference that the high higher-ups tend to organize taskforces in a way to best take advantage of this diversity, by making very specific combinations and carefully choosing commanders. I also think that there was some criteria mentioned on how a Night Lord got to join a Taskforce, or be up for selection, something that showed that, despite how eclectic they can be, they have progressed to a point where they will serve the greater purpose rather than their own. Sort of like how the canon Space Wolves have that transition between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. In this case, it's Legionaires part of the greater crusading host and those veterans who have proven their worth and operate as Taskforces, which are as eclectic and diverse as the Legion itself. So, with that understanding, this Taskforce we're discussing now would be specifically chosen, populated and mandated by a rather unified command to specifically counter the known/perceived threats in this frontier colony.

Wulfkry · January 17, 2013

Well now i think you have to write a color piece where one of those night lords broadcasts across the sector in a very gravelly voice that "person XYZ is not the law we are the law". Perhaps this Night Lords name is Josephus Drett.

Grotsmasha · January 18, 2013

Well now i think you have to write a color piece where one of those night lords broadcasts across the sector in a very gravelly voice that "person XYZ is not the law we are the law". Perhaps this Night Lords name is Josephus Drett.

Seconded!!!

Conn Eremon · January 26, 2013

I think it's time for some more notes!

What if Sanguinius can't die? Literally can't. Despite his intentions to kill himself on the blades of his former brothers, every attempt ends in failure. No matter what is done to him, he survives it. Imperial records have a long history of declaring the Daemon Primarch dead, only to have to face him once more further down the road. Say Angron doesn't just tear off Sanguinius' wings but buries his twin axes into his chest with his dying breath? Both are dragged away by their sons, each clearly dead. But Sanguinius pops back up at the Siege of Terra. Once the Lion retreats, many Blood Angels remain, including Sanguinius himself. While rampaging through a Terran Hive, the Imperials do the unbelievable and commence an orbital bombardment directly upon it, firing shells normally reserved for Exterminatus but only in a localized manner. The Hive, and much the surrounding land, is simply obliterated. Of the Blood Angels and Sanguinius, there is absolutely no sign. No survivors, no remains, everything was atomized. Later, at Baal, he reappears in defense of his homeworld. Again, believed lost in battle, the Grand Cruiser he assaults suffers a cataclysmic plasma core overload and is incinerated by the blast. At Macragge, he is believed slain, buried under a mountain of debris by the concerted fire of the War Hounds, only to reappear upon the Fortress of Hera's walls. Later on, his ascension to that of a Daemon Primarch makes this more than understandable. Daemon Primarchs can't be slain permanently, only sent back to the Warp. But Sanguinius exhibits this trait when the influence of Khorne is just beginning to take its toll. Inexplicably, Sanguinius survives everything he throws himself against in spite of his own inner turmoil pushing him to his death. This would all tie into how Sanguinius already is, for all intents and purposes, dead. His vital signs go flat when in a comatose state as his Legion fell to Khorne all around him, only to rise Dracula-style. Sanguinius' initial fall, mirroring that of his sons, is that of a mortal dying and rising as a vampire.

Another thing: The Red Thirst is already present pre-Heresy, according to Fear to Tread. And it instills that berserker fury that we all know and love in Khornates and the canon Death Company. Sanguinius wants to find the flaw and remove it, but obviously doesn't succeed. What if he does succeed in the GH? Not fully, but partially. Sanguinius seems like the guy who would do anything for his sons, his Legion. This could be how he ends his suicidal stage (if it ever does end. If we go with the above never-truly-dead Daemon Primarch, maybe he stays suicidal), by making a deal. Okay, Khorne, I'll accept you, I'll be yours. But free my sons from this curse. And so Khorne does. The curse is there, always there, but the Legion is better equipped to deal with it, like Sanguinius himself is able to. However, the Khornate influence is still there and it operates not much differently than the Red Thirst did. So they're saved, but that doesn't make them instantly sane loyalists again. It just makes them more lucid than the canon World Eaters. A good set up for the honorable Berzerkers we've talked about. The thinking man's Khornates. They rage, they thirst, but they are fully aware and in control. But not all of them. Some are unable to deal with it, regardless of Sanguinius' sacrifice. They're ostracized by the Legion, but are given a unique place among them. They are brothers, terrible reflections of their own futures. Worse of all, Sanguinius himself is one of them. How do you banish them from your midst when your own beloved, even worshipped, gene-father is among their number? I don't know if we should give them any names. Merely descriptors, such as Blood Angels who have succumbed to a black rage (note the lack of capital letters).

Another thought, about Death Company thing. What I wrote above is obviously the GH equivalent to the Death Co. We have the controlled berserkers who seek challenges and quality skulls, blood. And we have those who have lost control, who care for nothing but the quantity of the skulls and blood they can bring. Not for Khorne, because they're so far gone that they don't even register anyone or anything anymore. But I don't want to call these latter Khorngels the "Death Company." It doesn't really flow with a Traitor Legion, and it would only serve to make people think of them as they are in canon. But I'm reading Fear to Tread and a certain part struck me as significant. Raldoran, First Captain and Chapter Master (interestingly, the book calls it a new honorific. He's not a Chapter Master in the 40k sense, he's just the First Captain and the title of Chapter Master is just tacked on. So the Blood Angels are more like the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, divided by 100-man Companies as their primary organisational unit. Since the BA are stated as 120,000 Legionaires, that's 1,200 Companies. Since the Blood Angels in our GH are fractured by their new natures as bloodthirsty berserkers who don't retreat from defeats, or victories for that matter, in an orderly fashion and get easily separated, it may fit that the Blood Angels Warbands are mostly of company strength. Making a potential thousand or more Blood Angel Warbands roaming around. Unless we try to get them to conform to Guilliman's Chaos Chapter set-up, which I think we should, but I'm not sure of how. Anyway, I digress) sprinkles black ink, or crumbled black inkstone, onto the armor of a dead Blood Angel who had succumbed to the Red Thirst and says something along the lines of him being in the 'company of death.' What if the Khornate Legion keeps the red blood and white wing motif, and perhaps brass instead of gold for things like the Sanguinary Guard or Sanguinius himself, but there is an inclination to spread black across the armor, for all who walk the 'eightfold path,' as I recall a World Eater saying a time or two, are in the 'company of death.' They might not think of themselves as dead, but in the realm of death. And so they paint themselves according to their Baalite traditions. Just an idea, throw some more color into the mix. Or, perhaps we make the Wardens more prevalent among the Traitor Legion. They're the Chaplains, the spiritual heads of the Legion and they have taken unto themselves to ensure that the once-Librarians don't break the Nykaean Edict. Now, in ours, the Nykaean Edict doesn't break the Librarians. But perhaps the Chaplain orders remain the same, have the same roles. They ensure that the Librarians don't overstep their bounds, don't reach beyond what they can grasp. Sort of like Commissars attached to psyker units. When the Librarians and Apothecaries seek to save Sanguinius when he's in his comatose state, perhaps it's the Wardens who lead the charge against them. The Wardens feel that the Librarians are overstepping, that they're the cause for Sanguinius' condition. When the Blood Angels fall to Khorne, the Wardens are the ones to show them the way. Khornate Wardens remain a dangerous threat to the Imperium, black-clad and skull-faced. They are the only ones to tolerate those battle-brothers who lose control of themselves.

Back to the Chaos Chapters thing, I think I might be trying to push it too hard onto the Blood Angels. Thing is, it fits with all the others. Imperial Fists and Salamanders have nothing standing in their way and are supposed to be followers of Guilliman, as their Warmaster. The Lion's Angels are already divided among Chapter lines following their disastrous dissolution at Caliban. I was going to say the Iron Hands share in the Blood Angels thing, but their division by Clans is roughly the same thing. And though they're not followers of Guilliman, why wouldn't the Omega Legion and its High Lords seek to secure this new Traitor Legion's loyalty as they did the Imperial Fists, Salamanders and Blood Angels and why wouldn't they succeed in it? And obviously the Omega Legion would take it to heart thoroughly, creating hundreds of thousands of Chaos Chapters from itself, unique in identity and heraldry except for when a High Lord bands them together for a concerted assault upon the Imperium. But the Blood Angels require a bit of stretching and pulling to fit in the whole Chaos Chapter thing. We've got them splintering well before the conclusion of the Heresy, and with their Legion organisation it'd be by company lines.

Hm. You know what, maybe it does fit that they don't conform to Guilliman's Codex in this regard. Adds a bit more tragedy to Guilliman's uprising. Ever since the Horus Heresy book line has come out with tidbits about Guilly's 'Imperium Secundus,' I've been trying to connect it with the GH. Guilliman's betraying the Emperor because he feels his Imperium Secundus is better, basically. And it appears that Guilliman never saw himself as the new Emperor. New Warmaster, sure, but not the Emperor. For that, he envisioned Sanguinius would be best suited. And it fits with our GH. He only ever calls himself the Warmaster of his rebellion, never the Emperor of his own secessionist Imperium. And so perhaps he still envisions his brother Sanguinius as the Emperor of this new Imperium he intends to forge upon the old. But when Sanguinius returns to him, as an ally, he is no longer someone he would trust in this position. He belongs to Khorne, by then. He's bloodthirsty, crazed and cares only for the next challenge capable of putting an end to his suffering. He is not what he once was. Guilliman would be shattered. This would be the first irrefutable evidence that his rebellion is not as morally grounded as he might have once assumed. But he's proud and he still has his ideals, though he doesn't know how easily the Ruinous Powers are using these very traits against him. So he doesn't concede defeat, he fights on. But Sanguinius and the Blood Angels would continue to be evidence of a failure. Guilliman's failure, somewhere or somehow. Despite his intentions, things have turned out wrong. And the Blood Angels continued existence, as a Legion, in name only, that defies the Codex, remains as proof.

Okay, I just finished Fear to Tread. I'd been thinking throughout how easy it would be to make it a GH variation. It wouldn't even have to vary much, just a small tweak here and there to lead to a different conclusion, but in ways I had already put down in what I think is still the accepted story. By the end of it, it felt eerie. My idea matches the book step by step, differing only in that the Horus Heresy has miraculous events change the tide and secure a Legion's loyalty, whereas mine does not. Then again, my idea was based off of conversations with other Blood Angel fans and I think the book was already out by then so I might have incorporated elements of it without realizing it at the time. Either way, having finished it I am doubly secure in what has been put down for our Guilliman Heresy. Though the events don't take place on Signus, as the trap set for them there goes unsprung without Horus or Erebus around to lead the Blood Angels down that path, still it concludes that Sanguinius falls into a sleep that only the psychic Librarians can wake him from. But the blood-thirsty Blood Angels, those who had succumbed to the terrible rages no differently than in the events of canon Signus, led perhaps by the black-armored Wardens who had always counseled caution towards the witch-minded, tear these valiant Blood Angels apart in a misguided attempt to save their fallen lord from what is in reality his saviors. Soon following this, with Sanguinius still unconscious and no guiding hand upon them, the Blood Angels truly and finally fall to Khorne. After severe internal skirmishes, as the Blood Angels tear into each other following the slaying of all other prey-victims, only the most ferocious and blood-thirsty remain. Though tens of thousands strong, they are but a portion of their original grand whole. And when the soul of Sanguinius, ever a collection of the hearts and souls of his sons, has become something corrupted and dark, a reflection of the face of his last living sons, he will awake from the hold the Warp holds over him.

As for where this happens, I don't think I've made a name for it yet or chosen one already in canon. I think it'd work best as a centralized location where the Blood Angels are forced to. Hm. By Guilliman. After he has fallen in whole, but not after his betrayal is discovered. He knows that Sanguinius and the Blood Angels are the one and only Legion and Primarch he needs to have on his side more than any other. Not as servants to his cause, but as equals who will take it up with him. Well, no. I don't think the Ultramarines should do this, nevermind. Doesn't sit right if that's their reason, for them to attack and hound the Blood Angels to their fall. Better keep it a daemonic attempt. Well, how about this. Guilliman's acceptance of the Ruinous Powers has a condition: You want me, bring me Sanguinius. These Powers agree, though Guilliman is not made aware of the whole truth of their manner of getting the deed done. He is expecting an equal, one in full control of himself. They deliver on their promise, but not to his expectations. They hand him the Blood Angels and Sanguinius, but they are useful only as blunt instruments. Weapons, not allies. The daemonic forces hound the Blood Angels for a while, collecting them into a single host and forcibly directing them unto hallowed ground prepared for them. Okay, so maybe Signus could still work. It'd been prepared for them, but they didn't go after it like originally planned. When Chaos re-exerts itself in the minds of the god-generals of the Imperium, they try to salvage their plan for the Blood Angels. The Blood Angels don't collect themselves into a single host and target Signus, so they are made to.

--- +++ ---

Been thinking more about the post-Heresy Omega Legion, namely their name and symbol change. I've already explained away that the name of Omega Legion is the Imperial moniker for the changed Legion in accordance with their symbol change and as far as I know this was accepted and I still think is good. But as for why they change the symbol, the obvious answer would be that they are re-inventing themselves in light of their new situation as failed usurpers. Plus, with my idea of the Legion being heavily divided into uniquely named and decorated Chapters, the new Legionary symbol would only be used by concerted military operations, typically led by one of the few Legion Commanders, the -arch fellows. So, with that in mind, and really I'm just going with the simple and obvious, the inverted Ultramarines' symbol, that of the symbol for omega, could be a visual declaration of their new view of themselves as the 'end.' Having failed to "save" the Imperium, they will be its destruction. Which fits, as they would only show it when they amass multiple Chaos Chapters into an enormous army with the specific purpose of toppling the Imperium. Something that I think should be ongoing. Really up the idea that this is the Long War. Instead of Abaddon's Black Crusades occuring every now and then (Only 13 over ten thousand years), there is just the Long War. There is never a moment where the Omega Legion isn't at full-out war with the Imperium, what changes is merely where they are attacking, who is leading them, and which Chaos Chapters make up the force. Though the Imperium has so far been successful at holding them at bay, it's taken quite a toll. Even should they push back one army, another arises to take its place but elsewhere. And often there are more than just one army around. I'm going to say the last time the entire Legion, or the biggest portion of it since the Heresy, had struck out at the same exact time, as seven great armies led by the Tetrarch, Hexarch, Octarch and others, along with many other forces ranging from the small Justaerin Warband led by Abaddon to Sigismund's enormous crusader host, was M38. However, the numbers of Traitor Marines participating in the Long War as of the close of M41 is steeply on the rise. Five Omega Legion forces have recently spewed forth from the great Eye in addition to the three already present, as well as mobilization of all four other Traitor Legions, in conjunction with the Omega Legion, and the sudden dissipation of dozens of the Warpstorms that had each hid whole Chapters of the traitorous Dark Angels since the Heresy. With the greater unification of the White Scars under a single leader, for the first time since the Great Khan's disappearance, the Imperium is finding itself under assault from the greatest amassing of Traitor Legionaires since Guilliman's uprising. This coupled with the increasing number of Tyranid Hive Fleets, the war with the Tau since Supreme Commander Farsight took over, the first expansion of the reborn Eldar Empire following its official inception earlier that millennium and the Necrons refocusing their efforts against the Imperium makes it truly understandable why the close of the 41st Millennium is referred to as the End of Days. You might notice I didn't mention the Orks and that's because they're Orks. Nothing's changed. They're everywhere, they're in a fighting mood and they're everywhere.

Another thing about the Omega Legion, I never gave the great lords of the Legion a collective title beyond the -arch thing. Makes it hard to describe them as a whole. While adding some more input to the above Blood Angels' bit, I called them 'High Lords.' Now that I think about it, aren't the canon High Lords products of Guilliman's vision post-Heresy as a continuation of the Emperor's civilian congress? He himself was one, but he stepped down. However, that Guilliman saw the dangers of an Imperium dominated by Primarchs, thanks to Horus. In the GH, he would obviously never come to that same conclusion. So here's my thinking: Sanguinius can't be the Emperor, for all the reasons I stated above. But Guilliman doesn't want to simply take over both roles, he'd rather just stay as Warmaster. But he needs some sort of ruling body, so he comes up with the High Lords of Macragge. He is the first, but each Primarch loyal to him becomes High Lords themselves. Perhaps others are brought in, the powerful heads of all those organizations outside of the Legions that are loyal to him. But whatever this ruling body is, it's ended along with the Heresy. As the Traitor Legions are cast from the Imperium and into the Eye of Terror, no such ruling council is necessary. The other Legions become more self-involved, the Daemon Primarchs more concerned with whatever it is they do for their God than anything else (Isn't there some sort of eternal war in the Warp fought between the Gods, mostly fought by the Greater Daemons and most powerful of Daemon Princes such as the Primarchs, explaining their absences away?). Those mortal institutions could never survive the Heresy as the Legions have and as such, any High Lords derived from them are long gone. Only the Omega Legion might keep it up, perhaps as a tradition or as further means to follow the guidelines set by Guilliman. As such, the Omega Legion would have High Lords. Who better to be these High Lords than these great commanders, the -archs? Fitting collective title, and it has a ring to it. The Pentarch, Chapter Master of the Overlords and High Lord of Macragge. The Septarch, formerly of the War Consuls, Chapter Master of the Emerald Tigers and High Lord of Macragge. Though Macragge is a lifeless ball, its oceans boiled and its mountains leveled, it remains alive to the Omega Legion as a powerful symbol. Hm. Chapter Master. Chaos Lord. Or a variation of either/both. Chaos Master, Chapter Lord. Lord of the *insert name here* Chapter? You know what, no, Chapter Master sounds better, though variations should exist in other Legions. Praetors, Lords, Khans, etc. Blood Angels have no title, they just follow someone of 'the blooded,' meaning experienced in battle, leading to their commanders being called the Blooded. The Imperial Fists call their commanders something different for each variation. The Imperial Fists are the praetorians of pestilence, the crusaders of calamity.

And about Guilliman, I was reading their canon IA. In it, Konor, Guilliman's adopted father, is stricken by visions of the Emperor who leads him to discover Guilliman as a babe. During this time, he's greatly fevered and is only cured by doing what the vision says. In ours, we have the villainous Gallan finding Guilliman instead. So here's an idea, Konor's visions don't change. He is stricken by a terrible fever as the visions take hold and for weeks he is a raving, mumbling bed-ridden soul. Gallan comes to visit his co-Consul, as protocol dictates, and overhears some of his feverish ramblings. On a whim, he listens to them and not so soon later organizes a small party to head out into the mountains. And there, exactly as Konor's ravings described, will Gallan find Guilliman.

+++ --- +++

"Perfection is not a state of being. It is a state of striving. The journey is all that has meaning, not the goal."

-- the Phoenician

Horus says it in Fear to Tread, but it continues to say that these were Fulgrim's words. Goes along nicely with our changed Emperor's Children. From the 'perfection for the Perfection God' to the 'always strive, but never pretend you can obtain it.' Which is really the only thing I can think of that wouldn't be a copy of the Dornian Heresy's 'already got it, never gonna change.'

--- +++ ---

Bringing Chaos Chapters up again, specifically the Imperial Fists. Up to now, I've been thinking of the Fists and Templars as Chapters fo the original Legion. But what if the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars make of themselves two separate Legions, further dividing into Chapters. To the Imperium, their Legion name is most important, their Chapter name just an additional signifier, just like they do for the others like the Omega Legion. So to the Imperium, there is just the Imperial Fist and the Black Templar Legions, though many wouldn't even make that distinction. But the Imperial Fists do divide themselves along Chapter lines and the Black Templars have equivalent independent Crusader Hosts. Though the Templars see Dorn as their gene-father, their true leader is Sigismund, the Chosen of Nurgle. Gives a bit of distinction to the Nurgle and his favored while being in keeping with some of the canon friction between Dorn and Guilliman over the formation of Chapters from the Legions. However, I'd say that the Imperial Fists and their successors are more in league with the Omega Legion than the Black Templars are. To the Templars, their Crusader Hosts and their Crusades are all-important. Though they will work in concert where appropriate, they won't go out of their way to help. The Fists and their successors will readily come to the banner of a High Lord, as the Salamanders, Blood Angels and Iron Hands would.

Hm, why don't we try to name the Chosens? Sigismund is the Chosen of Nurgle, and I'd say Azkaellon can be the Chosen of Khorne. Not sure who to choose for the others. I'll have to re-read the Salamander book to see who is high up in that Legion or would be an appropriate Chosen, and if Santar is the great Daemon Prince of the Iron Hands, who's going to be their Chosen?

Wade Garrett · January 29, 2013

I've been continuing to ponder on my Badab War spin off, and I really think it needs to have a great big city fight between the VIII and IV Legions.

Here's why:

I'm seeing that the Night Lords have a very black and white vision of how things are: There is the Law. Flout the law, deny the law, defy the law, and know this: You will behold those in midnight clad, and it will be the last thing you ever see.

Meanwhile, the Iron Warriors are pragmatic, secular, seeing the gray areas and compromises needed to allow Mankind to survive in the Ages of Darkness.

Of course they aren't going to get along. Then there's the fact that the Iron Warriors are urban warfare specialists, the Night Lords are Enforcers of the Law. Consider the great urban combat zones of history: Stalingrad, Fallejah, etc. Generally, they were burned to the ground. Compare that to the way all those agents of the law you mentioned (The Saints, Capone, etc.) operate. So...we've got an ideological conflict, and a "Way Things Are Done" Conflict. By the Throne, let's spin this into an actual chainblades screaming and bolters roaring conflict!

Conn Eremon · January 29, 2013

Though the Night Lords are the present force and any reaction to them would be to root them out, I think it'd be great if such a hive battle took place that the positions be reversed. The Iron Warriors place themselves in the Night Lords' way, fortifying themselves in a large hive the Night Lords have publicly declared their next target for justice.

Therefore, the Night Lords are the Marshals moving in to clean up the lawless rather than being 'caught in the act,' while the Iron Warriors, with their moral high ground, wind up defending those unworthy of their aid. The grimdarkness of it is that the Iron Warriors are as ever cold and pragmatic, seeing collateral damage as an easy price to pay, while the Night Lords are fervent in their pursuit of justice and see no innocent bystanders, only conspirators of varying guilt. Though one side fights the corrupt no matter their status and the other defends a beleaguered Imperial institution, in the middle the innocents suffer.

I think if I'm going to borrow from any real world application of urban/guerrilla warfare, I'm going to use the Sandinistas of Nicaraguan fame. What with the U.S.'s involvement, it has a lot of links to the idea of a battle between the two Legions. A group of guerrilla fighters seeking to end injustice, meeting with success, only for another great power that should be on their side, that of justice, instead moves against them. That, and Contra and Peacewalker are two awesome games, one old and the other new.

However, the Night Lords are few in number while the Iron Warriors would probably field at least a Grand Company. Since the Iron Warriors are the urban warfare fighters of Our40k, it stands to reason that they would win. Though the battle would be hard-fought, and the Night Lords should definitely have some moments to be proud about, it'll inevitably be an Iron Warriors victory.

Or the Iron Warriors win their battle, while the Night Lords win theirs. Though the Night Lords are brutally kicked out of the hive, they still managed to bring to justice their primary targets. In other words, the ringleaders are still executed, while the Iron Warriors, as far as they see it or know, successfully defend the hive.

Ace Debonair · February 20, 2013

Better late than never, says Ace, replying a month after the last post. :ermm:

Sanguinius becoming a can't-really-be-killed sorta-kinda-daemon thing way in advance is an awesome idea. It also means Angron can strike what he thinks is a killing blow and make the War Hounds even more bitter and furious when Sanguinius turns up elsewhere.

Guilliman basically making Sanguinius a 'must-have' for his compliance with the Dark Gods is cool too. I'd maybe suggest that he extends that to at least Dorn as well, on the basis that if two of his brothers who are most loyal to their father agree with him, Guilliman's ideas of seccession must be the right thing to act upon.

Konor still having the fever is a nice touch, making it so he's simply too incapacitated to find Guilliman while Gallan takes advantage. Also, the Omega Legion having High Lords is a quality idea - it's both a nod to the canon High Lords of Terra and a slightly more subtle indication they're essentially the top Chaos Lords of the Arch-Betrayer's Legion.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about individual heresy-era legions to name Champions for them, though. :sweat:

Conn Eremon · February 20, 2013

It would certainly make the confrontation between Sanguinius and Angron be more grand, as both would effectively kill each other by the end of the days-long duel. And yeah, you're right. It would certainly increase the bitterness of the War Hounds when it becomes clear to them that, though their own father died of his wounds, Sanguinius survived. Though they may not know the specifics of how and why, and do not know that it was literally against his will.

Olis · February 20, 2013

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Okay, so here's the details of the Imperial Fists that we've had over the course of the original thread - I've got to show something had been done in the past month on my end, eh? Same as Cormac's compilation, the most current and/or accepted bits are in bold. Again, older info has been kept. :smile.:

Legio Astartes: Imperial Fists

Trimmed from the Guilliman Heresy thread up to Post #670, pg 27

By searching with the keywords: "Imperial Fists" "Rogal Dorn" "Sigismund" "Inwit" and "Phalanx", and also reading the entire damned thread. (It took me hours.)

ShasVa’s First Post, Jan. 9th:

Imperial Fists

- The Pain Glove is presented to Rogal Dorn by Guilliman, whom intends to corrupt Dorn with the gift.

- Dorn and the Fists eventually become corrupted warriors of Chaos, their defences nigh-impregnable...

- ...until the Siege of Terra, when the Iron Warriors tear them down and cripple the Imperial Fists.

- The legion is later renamed the Fists of Darkness.

- Their colours change to rusty yellowish chrome.

- The legion worships Chaos as a pantheon.

- Perturabo was injured by Rogal Dorn during a post-heresy battle. Although not killed, he was interred inside a Primarch-sized Dreadnought, which would later by known as the Obliterator. The Obliterator can change weapons on the fly and is slightly larger than a canon Dreadknight.

- Their rivalry with the Imperial Fists continues to the present day.

What if Dorn landed on Mars, and he became more enamoured with building vast indestructible marvels of ancient technology and metal, and Perturabo landed on a feral, tribal world, and learned to put his faith more in the strength of man than machine?

[Ace Debonair 20th January 2012]

- Haven't worked out who turns to Nurgle (MAYBE the Imperial Fists)

- The following loyal Primarchs are dead by M41; Perturabo (killed by Rogal Dorn),

[shasVa 29th February 2012]

Nice. I vote for Nurgle Fists. Can we have them all gaunt and wasted? Maybe a little zombie-ish?

Will definitely take this to the drawing board. Thankyou.

[shasva 1st March 2012]

With the imperial fists though they could work aswell, using 'great wall' tactics, if youve ever read into the history of the Great wall of chine, you will know that even dead bodies were used in some cases for mortar (or just buried under the wall) you could have the fists create baricades of Human flesh, (kinda like giant tummors that slowly spread over a planet)

[The_son_of_Dorn 1st March 2012]

"We have made our walls of your dead. Do you dare assault us again, Word Bearer?" - Captain Uriseus, on the walls of an unamed bastion, Inwit.

[Olisredan 1st March 2012]

Perhaps Rogal Dorn was half way between loyal and corrupt (IIRC, he got along with Guilliman in canon, and would do the same in the GH). His legion, having built what they thought was an unbreakable and immovable fortress on an unnamed planet, would soon find it tumbling as if it was made of Jenga blocks. Nurgle would come to Dorn, and sway him to Chaos, promising the now traitor Primarch that with the power of Nurgle, his walls will never fall again.

This will also lead into an incident similar to the Iron Cage one in canon. The urban techno-guerillas of the Iron Warriors get ambushed in a dead fortress crafted by the ruinous Imperial Fists, and Perturabo is killed by Dorn here as well.

[shasva 6th March 2012]

Though I'm shamelessly in love with the idea that the Imperial Fists' manner of falling is tied to something Chinese in nature, considering I have a DIY Imperial Fist successor Chapter with a Chinese theme.

[Cormac Airt 6th March 2012]

Perhaps that unnamed planet could be Inwit?

This is shaping up nicely, I'd say. That last bit about the Iron Warriors in a dead fortress sounds pretty killer. Perhaps call it the Necropolis or the Fortress of the Dead?

[Olisredan 6th March 2012]

Slaanesh seems to fit more with the Fists' Pain Glove backstory and Nurgle seems to jibe more with the Sallies intractable nature.

[alphariusomegon20 6th March 2012]

I can see Iron Hands turning to Nurgle to escape the pain of the loss of their primarch, don't get Salamanders with slaanesh, agree those should be traded out, either for (Emperor forgive me...) the Imperial Fists, or the iron hands (Who originally quest for perfection through bionic improvement but get convinced otherwise.)

And you could flip the pain idea of the imperial fists so certain members despise the practice and become the majority, and turn to nurgle to avoid pain altogether.

[Roesor 13th March 2012]

I've become aware that Guilliman referred to at least four legions as "the dauntless few" that he was arrogantly certain he could win a war with. I believe they were Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius, and Ferrus Manus. I was giving thought to having them turn to Chaos, and worship a different god. I was thinking that Ferrus Manus could turn to Tzeentch (magic plus technology is a dangerous mix) in place of Corax, who could now bond with Konrad Curze, and be part of the reinforcements that save Terra from Guilliman's all-out siege. Sanguinius would still go with Khorne, Vulkan with Slaanesh, and Dorn with Nurgle. The Dark Angels on Lion's side would still go evil, and the ones on Luther's side would still remain loyal.

[shasva 28th April 2012]

Dorn turns to Nurgle, and raises walls and fortresses made of disease, corpses, and all sorts of nasty biological things. Dorn himself becomes a pustulent blob of daemonic nastiness, slow moving but nigh-unstoppable, and his very presence brings decay and lifelessness.

[shasva 30th April 2012]

I have this mental image of a Dorn looking somewhat zombie-like but absolutely massive, as in dreadknight massive if not larger still, striding the battlefield scooping up foes and biting off their heads, Ozzie Osborne style (holding the victim with both hands like you would hold a large burger). Kind of a zombie-giant clad in tons of armour.

[Olisredan 30th April 2012]

I've seen a few Nurgle ascendants who were basically sentient plagues. They controlled who they infected into a sort of hive mind. I could see Nurgle infecting Dorn in such a way, leading to his corruption and fall. The daemonic intelligence and Dorn's conscious fuse into a single being, so that Dorn's true 'self' ceases to be his primarch body but the disease infecting it. His body becomes a separate entity that is animated by this Dorn-Daemon virus, rather than being Dorn. So as this monstrous thing decays and corrupts and breaks down, the Dorn-Daemon replenishes it by devouring his enemies (or allies), or through surgical means. The Dorn entity strives to keep his original Primarch appearance, but by now he looks exactly as you describe it, with a little Frankenstein mixed in. You could say that this daemonic plague is the Destroyer Hive that the canon Typhus has, only instead of it being a gift for service well done, it's Nurgle's heavy-handed attempt to simply take Dorn, resulting in an amalgamation of the two. That'd be absolutely horrifying, seeing that massive, shambling figure slowly working its way past barricades, fortifications, walls, what have you, without breaking a single stride as it simply wades through them, booming, overlapping voices issuing from it, like a thousand voices whispering the same words of doom. Its corroded, clogged chainsword seeming to literally chew its way through enemies as clouds of miasma waft from it. Those who touch the gaseous emanations die quickly. But their second death is never so quick. How does one stop the dead when they are animated by a Daemon Primarch's very essence?

[Cormac Airt 30th April 2012]

The miasma could come from the engine running the blades, maybe... I dunno, I think making the exhaust from the daemon-chainsword deadly would be pretty cool.

[Olisredan 30th April 2012]

- Perturabo's backstory is similar to the plot of Final Fantasy X and X-2. He later dies at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Dorn, during the Necropolis Incident.

[shasva 30th April 2012]

I was thinking something akin to the Armaggedon Wars. The "Iron Cage" event is swapped with the "Necropolis Incident", as both were between the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists.

[shasva 30th April 2012]

- Crisis at Inwit - With the Praetorian's homeworlds in open revolt, Dorn and his Imperial Fists leave the fortifications of the Imperial Palace and Terra to pacify them and bring them back under Imperial rule. What occurred when the Imperial Fists made planetfall is a matter of conjecture but what is known is that they fell from grace, becoming gaunt, wasted creatures bearing the mark of dark powers. When they returned to Terra, it was as beseigers, rather than defenders, taking horrendous losses attempting to tear down that which they created.

- The Siege of Terra - The Emperor's Children, the Iron Warriors, the War Hounds and the Word Bearers face off against the Lion's Dark Angels, the Salamanders, the Imperial Fists, and the Blood Angels. At the culmination of the Siege El'Jonson is confronted by Fulgrim. Unfortunately, Fulgrim dies at the hands of the Lion, valiant though the fight was. Bloodied by his brutal battle with his brother, El'Jonson and the Emperor duel inside the walls of the Imperial Palace but before the Emperor can end his wayward son the Blood Angels and the Salamanders break into the compound. Soundly beaten by the Emperor, covered by Sanguinius and Vulkan, the Lion retreats. With heavy Loyalist reinforcements en route, it is his only choice.

- The Necropolis Incident - Facing the corrupted Imperial Fists on their own homeworld of Inwit, the Fortress of the Dead (otherwise known as the Necropolis) proves a formidable obstacle in bringing the Fists to justice. As the final butresses are taken and the deepest of dungeons purged, Peturabo confronts Dorn in his throne room. The fight, although monumental, is too much for the Iron Warriors Primarch and he dies valiantly fighting the Chaos imbued Rogal Dorn. His legion, on the cusp of victory, forces the remainder of the Imperial Fists and their Primarch to escape Inwit, reducing the once noble world to ashes.

[Olisredan 20th May 2012]

Siege of Terra

He gets on his side Sanguinius, Rogal Dorn, and Vulkan. They don't swear to him over Guilliman, they just agree on the merits of such an assault. Dorn feels he can get through the Imperial Palace fortifications quickly,

Guilliman and his Legion are not a part of it, however the Lion's Angels, the Blood Angels, a the Imperial Fists, and the Salamanders do take part.

While the Lion and Fulgrim go at it, Dorn and Vulkan tag-team the Emperor. The Emperor forces them into retreat by the time the Lion reaches him. The Emperor is hurt, and the Lion is a less-powerful Warmaster.

[Cormac Airt 3rd June 2012]

The Imperial Fists are split into three distinctive groupings: the experienced and veteran Imperial Fists under Rogal Dorn (the Emperor's Children never changed their name, why should they?), the zealous Templars under Sigismund (a non-Daemon Prince Chosen of Nurgle), and Crimson Fists, led by a series of leaders instead of one particularly notable leader, who were formed by those younger Marines who didn't find a home among the other two. Over time, there have been many Warbands from these three break-ups, such as the Soul Drinker renegades, but there is still a heavy tie of allegiance to one of these three and all view the Daemon Primarch Rogal Dorn as the highest authority, and the idea of breaking down into Chapters purposefully is seen as disdainful.

I think it'd be amazing to have an orbital conflict involving the Furious Abyss and the Phalanx.

[Cormac Airt 4th June 2012]

Doesn't feel right. Specifically, the names of the groups (Templars, Crimson Fists and Soul Drinkers). The rest of it is fine - it's just the names I'm uncomfortable with. I would rather them have names alluding to their Canon counterparts or have new names altogether. There's plenty of scope for names, I think, given the circumstances.

[Olisredan 4th June 2012]

I was mostly using them as place-holder names. The post-Heresy break-up of the GH Imperial Fists should, I feel, go along the same lines as the canon break up. Sigismund's group, young stoics, and the older vets: Templars, Crimson Fists, and Imperial Fists. And that, later certain specialized groups might break off, like the planetary assaulters: Soul Drinkers. Their canon names described that well enough, however giving them a unique naming system, like what I did with the Iron Hands (even though those names are in canon), is perfectly fine with me. Actually, I prefer it as much as you.

[Cormac Airt 4th June 2012]

A battle between the Furious Abyss and the Phalanx would be epic, although the Phalanx would come out on top.

[calgar101 4th June 2012]

I would see such a battle less as a one-on-one duel, and more like the Phalanx and its attendent ships being outnumbered by a Fleet or two, but winning by attrition, as the Furious Abyss moves in for the kill. Or attempted kill, depending on who we make win.

[Cormac Airt 4th June 2012]

The Phalanx is not even a ship, it is a moon that's been turned into a space fortress, it would take a considerable fleet to take it down even with the Furious Abyss helping. Also I think the Phalanx should survive the Heresy to give the Imperial Fists a strong base of operations.

[calgar101 4th June 2012]

I was re-thinking what I said about the Imperial Fists naming thing. I'm still fine with different names, but we need to have good reasons for why. Because we know why they chose some of those names, and they are good reasons. The Emperor's Children is a good precedent for having an Imperial-named Traitor Legion, so we'll need a good reason why they don't stay Imperial Fists, especially if Rogal Dorn is still around. The Black Templar Sigismund is still one of the most charismatic leaders of the Heresy era, and he would still get his own, so there would still be Black Templars. We'd have to give a good reason why they wouldn't be, like taking away that title from Sigismund. But considering its religious overtone, it wouldn't be something to give away to some other Legionary in this alternate universe, I think, so why wouldn't he still be the Black Templar? The others, like the Crimson Fists and Soul Drinkers, are a bit more flexible, as we don't really know why they chose that name. We do, however, know why GW gave the Crimson Fists that name, which is an awesome story. For those of you who don't know it, here's the concise story:

Two Spaniards dispute ownership over an island, and take the affair to the religious authorities. Said religious authority declares a contest: Whosoever reaches the island first has claim to the land. And so the two race off to their boats, and start rowing. They keep relatively well apace, but one Spaniard is able to keep a small, say five feet, lead on the other. This Spaniard reaches the island first, and rejoices. However, the man declared judge over the contest ruled that the second Spaniard had reached the island first, and so is the true lord over it. Why did he make that ruling? Because the second Spaniard, seeing he was about to lose, had stopped rowing, pulled out his knife, cut off his hand, and chucked it onto shore. This is the thematic origin of the Crimson Fists. And, personally, I think it's way too good to pass up.

[Cormac Airt 4th June 2012]

I'm going to strongly suggest we avoid Templars of any kind, as, like I've said in a much, much older post, it's an unnecessary tie to the Canon universe. It's one of the few niggles I have with the Dornian Heresy - it name drops the Templars without any real need. Granted, it's explained away well enough but it still just feels wrong.

[Olisredan 4th June 2012]

Having the Black Templar Legion swap is my niggle about the Dornian Heresy, for the same reason why the Black Templar removal here niggles me.

But we need to have a reason why it's not there. If we just let it proceed as we have it, we would have Black Templars. So we need a reason why they don't become this without feeling like it's shoehorned in. I'm fine with the idea of them not being Black Templars, but nitpick the idea of shoehorning them out.

So, here's what we have: Imperial Fists led by Rogal Dorn and Sigismund. Like Abaddon and the Justaerin, Sigismund doesn't share his Legion's colors. He wears black and white, and is called the Black Templar. Following the Heresy, the Imperial Fists break up. Sigismund commands one of these break-offs, and is mostly made up of the forces under his control during the Crusade, who likely wore the same colors. As Sigismund is the Black Templar, and his force has the same colors, they are called the Black Templars.

If we want that gone, we'd need a reason why. If we just say "it's out" than I'm going to advocate against it. It's reverse-shoehorning in that case.

But I've listed the basic steps on how they come about. Breaking them down further we have: Sigismund as the Black Templar and Sigismund as the head of like-minded Marines. Changing one or both should aid us in removing that name. Personally, I don't want Sigismund to leave. I rather like his character, and I don't see a Chaos-influenced Sigismund being taken out. So I'm against changing number 2. Number 1, then. Well, Sigismund is also the Emperor's Champion of his Legion, with the Primarch Dorn being the Emperor's Champion of all the Legions. So, maybe he has more than those as well, and like the Emperor's Champion, they were given in light of his efforts to better the Imperium. If he betrays the Imperium, maybe he'd want to cast off those titles.

But the thing I really want to point out is these two things: One, the Black Templar name fits just as well with the GH Chaos forces as it did with the canon Imperial forces, and Two, removing the name would require an active change just for the sake of removing it. The changes I like, the ones I try to propose or support, are ones that naturally flow into each other. If one, then the other. I like things to connect, as it builds sustainability and believability. Taking away the Black Templar doesn't, at least not yet, connect with anything, and runs counter in certain areas.

[Cormac Airt 4th June 2012]

I don't like the idea of Abaddon falling... but anyway what if only the Imperials call them the Black Templars but to themselves and other traitors they are still Imperial Fists led by Sigismund?

[calgar101 4th June 2012]

The Codex Astartes is the epitome of Guilliman's works. In canon, he holds to it so hard that there was almost a second civil war over it, and he wasn't the one that backed down. In GH, his dedication to it would be unchanged, and Dorn's confirmed place as subservient to him, as the first among equals rather than superior, would put a hamper on his resistance to it.

[Cormac Airt 5th June 2012]

Quick idea: Sigismund, after the Fists fall, calls himself the Black Knight (I'm just going off of imagery in my head atm). On the plus side it doesn't necessarily invalidate the Templars thing (although it's plausible they could be the 'Black Knights'). I know the notion has arrived a little late for the discussion, but it's just a thought from a sleep-deprived mind.

I can imagine a gaunt, black armoured 'knight' stalking the field with a sword and shield, soaking up shots (to both shield and body), challenging any across his path. His sword drips with pathogens and viruses, so that those who aren't slain immediately will feel the embrace of Nurgle, decaying where they lie.

[Olisredan 5th June 2012]

Sigismund is so in after reading the above post. "Plague Knights" as a title perhaps?

[shasva 5th June 2012]

Oh dear God, no. "Plague" anything just sounds terrible. So no Plague Fists either! And while I like the sound of Black Knight, it does kind of sound like a cop-out, too. Combining them just gets you Knights Templar, unfortunately, which is an obvious out. But my main issue with it is that it means Sigismund is removing a religious title for a secular one, while he and his are simultaneously moving to a religious thinking from a secular one. So while it sounds cool, and is a step in the right direction, I'm not all for it.

Going with the Black Knights as a Working-Title, though, we can keep a large part of their Templar character in just how they act rather than in name. For instance, certain worlds are holy to them. Macragge, Inwit, etc. Every time Sigismund goes out on a crusade, and it would be a crusade with him, these are his targets. They carve a path to one or more of these worlds, and attempt to hold both it and the path itself. They get kicked out pretty quickly, but they try nonetheless. But, at the close of the 41st Millennium, they take the Inwit system. The homeworlds of Dorn are theirs, and so far they haven't been kicked out yet. They're closed off, they've lost their path, but they have holed up there and are so far holding it still. Basically, combining the idea of a Crusade to a Holy Land with canon Abaddon's hold over Cadia.

[Cormac Airt 5th June 2012]

Loyalist Sigismund, split off from the Nurgelite Imperial Fists perhaps? Maybe I'm just biased, but it opens up some really nice alleys for conflict between Dorn and his second. That gives us Loyalist Fists, and gives us an avenue for the Crusade-y goodness. In canon, one of the nicknames for the Templar's is "The Emperor's favored sons" maybe make that an actual title. Siggy is refered to as the Emperor's Champion, and changes the name of the Legion, to distance himself from the Fists. The Black Milita prehaps? Whatever is the secular version of Templars.

[Grey Knight Purifier 5th June 2012]

Loyalist Sigismund as the Black Knight as opposed to a Chaos Black Templar? Hm. It bears thinking, but we should be careful with it. We already have a loyal Luther with the Dark Angels. We don't want to to apply the same formula to too many Legions, that'd just be boring. Personally, I say keep the Nurgle Black Templars.

[Cormac Airt 6th June 2012]

We also have a "possessed" Rogal Dorn, so another possessed Primarch shouldn't be.

[Cormac Airt 28th June 2012]

I've been thinking about Perturabo and his relationship with his traditional rival Dorn. Does Peturabo still have a rivalry with Dorn? As far as I can discern (and wish to expand) Peturabo's demeanor has changed. He's less petulant, less vindictive and apparently more humane in the brief forays into discussing him that we've had. The other thing we need to consider is that his boys' purpose has changed somewhat - they are no longer siege specialists. They are city-fighters. As such their views on defence and assault has changed and does not overlap as much as the traditional Imperial Fists. I'm inclined to make the rivalry between the two more jovial, or at least less serious. There aren't really any other primarchs that have their spheres of expertise overlap the Iron Warriors, in Canon or in the guilliman Heresy, so I'm not comfortable pawning off the relationship to another primarch over Dorn. I just feel that the dynamic has changed with the metamorphosis of Perturabo and his origin story. Whether or not Dorn becomes the antagonist when his story is fleshed out is another matter, however.

[Olisredan 23rd July 2012]

I'll answer as much as I can in the time I have. This, I understand your point. But I'm not sure that Perturabo is too removed from Canon. Different upbringing, but nature is the same. Nature vs. Nurture. He's different, certainly, but with half of his make-up remaining the same, he should still be similar. So rivalry might still be there, but in a much more muted fashion. A dislike, rather than a hatred. An unspoken disagreement, rather than open rivalry.

[Cormac Airt 23rd July 2012]

It is a good point, though. Since both are classified as undead, it might be too easy to mistake one for the other. Since we have a zombie faction already with the Imperial Fists, we'll have to be careful describing those traits of the two factions that are undead related, to prevent confusion.

[Cormac Airt 13th September 2012]

Maybe Khorne didn't try for the Blood Angels alone while Nurgle tried for the Imperial Fists alone. Maybe the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, and Salamanders got hit at the same time from four different directions. And while inevitably it concluded with one God, one Legion, maybe the fall-out was a bit more muddled. If a God got a Primarch, he got the Legion. But with all the other Gods focusing on the same Legion, perhaps the God that gets the Primarch gets only most of the Legion.

Beyond this, I've been thinking of the Siege of Terra, and its participants. At the moment, I can only remember the Traitor Legions involved, and one of the Loyalists: Dark Angels, Salamanders, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and the lonely Emperor's Children Legion. What we have is Fulgrim and the Lion duelling, the Lion losing against the Emperor, and the other Legions dragging him to safety. The Blood Angels are offworld, but invade Terra to aid in the retreat.

When the Imperial Fists entomb the Imperial Palace in an impenetrable bastion, they are still loyal. When the first word of traitor Legions reaches Terra, they are still loyal. When it comes time to ride out and meet the threat for the first time, the Imperial Fists ride out and meet the threat. And they are still loyal when they leave. It is after the leave that the events that turn them into traitors occurs. And so when the Lion marches on Terra, it is the Imperial Fists that are his biggest ally. They built the fortress. They can help him tear it down. But what was built by the greatest minds in siege warfare will be manned by the other great minds in siege warfare. The Iron Warriors will man the walls of the Imperial Palace, and they know it is the Imperial Fists that is their greatest threat. And so when the Lion marches on Terra, it is the Iron Warriors that direct Battlefleet Tempestus into the their oncoming waves, and strike at the Imperial Fists. When the Lion reaches the Sol System, the Word Bearers launch the Furious Abyss (I assume that the Word Bearers are involved in the Siege since the Furious was their ship) and, together with Battlefleet Sol, they strike out and obliterate Imperial Fist ships. And when the Lion reaches the orbit of Terra, it is on the Phalanx, the last Imperial Fist ship to break through the cordons, that the Lunar Defense Batteries open fire. And when the Lion lands on Terra, it is without the Imperial Fists. With single-minded determination, the loyalists take away the Lion's greatest asset, leaving him with three Legions to attack the perfect fortress, manned by three Legions of equal strength who were perfectly fitted to its defense. Wait, scratch the Battlefleets part. Those are post-Heresy things, when the Imperium is about keeping its borders rather than expanding. They're called Expeditionary Fleets during the Crusade. Since many of those Fleets are Legion-led, why don't we replace Battlefleet Tempestus with a Iron Warrior Expeditionary Fleet coming in from Segmentum Tempestus and Battlefleet Sol with a Word Bearer Fleet that was at Mars for a refit and resupply?

So the Siege of Terra would be, by this reckoning: The Iron Warriors, the Emperor's Children and Word Bearers vs the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Salamanders and Imperial Fists. The already-established Fleet from Tempestus, Furious Abyss and Fleet in Sol, and Luna as hindrances and cordons against the traitor forces are now, by this reckoning and of course open to everyone for c&c, specifically targeting the Imperial Fists and preventing them from landing on Terra. I feel that having Dorn and his Fists still be the ones to build the fortress that covers the Imperial palace makes the Lion's inclusion of the Fists and his attempt on Terra make more sense. He stands a greater chance, because he's attacking a fortress with a force that includes that fortress' creators. And I feel that having the hindrances and hold-ups by the Fleets and Luna target the Fists rather than the slower, non-Marine forces makes the fact that the Lion loses the Siege so utterly make more sense. His greatest weapon is taken completely out of the game, before the battle even starts. Without it, and considering the opposition has a weapon of equal bearing on their own side, the Iron Warriors, he no longer has a clear shot to victory.

So the actual battle on Terra would probably be two-fold. The Blood Angels rampage all across the globe, tying up the military resources so that the Dark Angels, backed up by the Salamanders, can assault the fortress. The Word Bearers could move to thwart the Blood Angels, perhaps even having an inconclusive duel between Lorgar and Sanguinius that both walk away from, while the Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children guard the Emperor in his Palace-Fortress. The Chaos-enfused Lion duels Fulgrim, killing him. At some point, the Phalanx finally gets close enough to Terra to teleport the Primarch and a cadre of his elite Templars directly onto the position of Vulkan and the Lion. To find that the Lion has been cast from the ramparts above, broken but alive. Upon the ramparts, the Emperor, bloodied but alive as well, will pick himself up as Perturabo hurries to him. Raging that he got to the fight too late, Dorn and Vulkan will drag the Lion back to l;their forces, and organize a hasty retreat. Many Blood Angel companies will simply refuse to retreat, too much in thrall with the bloodshed they cause. It will be months before the last one is killed.

[Cormac Airt 21st September 2012]

The idea of having the Fists turn after they've fortified Terra is pretty innovative, I certainly like it, but it does leave one question - what causes them to leave Terra in the first place? If they have the same outlook and demeanour as Canon Imperial Fists (not that I'm saying they definitely will) then they would be quite entrenched (mentally) in staying and protecting Terra. Might I posit an idea? What if Inwit came under attack? Say, from the Pyromanders, with Vulkan actively seeking to corrupt Dorn? I'm not entirely sure where this idea is going but we need a cause and effect that draws the Fists away from Terra. It could be a convenient way to tie in the whole Fortress of the Dead malarky - maybe the Necropolis is made from dead Inwits, the victims of the lost war against the Pyromanders?

[Olisredan 21st September 2012]

What if we go with rebellion? Maybe one of the regional lords left in care of a certain area of the Inwit Empire when it became part of the Imperium falls to Nurgle worship and initiates a war of secession. By the time the Fists have arrived, the entire Inwit system (or region of systems. Dorn was Emperor of the Inwits, but how big was the Inwit Empire? pre-Imperium Ultramar?) has been conquered by these Nurgle Cultists. Nurgle, wanting to claim the Fists for his own, gifts this Warlord with the Destroyer Virus. The Warlord believes that it will make him even more powerful than the Primarch, or the Emperor himself. Instead, the Virus consumes everything, increasing its power. When Dorn and his Legion land and march on the great capital fortress, the defenders are already dead. The things that man the walls, that fire down upon the Fists, that drag them down into the muck, are all re-animated by the daemonic virus. When Dorn fights the Hive Host, the re-animated corpse of the Warlord, the Destroyer Hive attempts to claim Dorn as well. As his Legion fights, and dies, Dorn wages war in ways he is utterly unprepared for.

So the Imperial Fists enter Inwit as loyalists in shame for their rebelling worlds (and this is certainly a good reason for them to leave Terra). They leave as Plague Fists. His Legion forced to accept Nurgle in order to survive, and the Primarch himself a corpse animated by the Dorn-Destroyer Hive.

[Cormac Airt 21st September 2012]

I have absolutely no idea how big the Inwit region was for definite. All I know is that is was more than one system. Presumably, that gives us a little breathing room to treat it in a similar fashion to a mini-Ultramar.

Replacing the Pyromanders with Nurgle cultists is a good move, not least because we don't want to muddy the waters of who is turning whom. I was reasonably certain that, having frameworked the idea of the Fists leaving Terra for Inwit, you'd refine the out-of-place details into something more plausible.

[Olisredan 21st September 2012]

Imperial Fists - Fall to Chaos, experts in sieges/blockades. Blockaded Terra during Heresy.

[insacrum 26th September 2012]

Salamanders vs. Blood Angels, Imperial Fists vs. Iron Hands, and Dark Angels vs. Omega Legion make the most sense from what we already have.

[Cormac Airt 27th September 2012]

- Rogal Dorn: ascended to Nurgle Daemonhood, possibly banished into Warp by Iron Warriors

[shasVa 28th September 2012]

The Fists do build it, and man it for a time, but they leave the walls of the Imperial Palace in order to subdue their rebelling worlds. At these worlds, they are corrupted by Nurgle and go Traitor. When the Siege occurs, the Fists are part of the invading force. The Iron Warriors are already at the Palace, manning its walls. Perhaps the Fists had to wait for them to show up and replace them before they could go off. So not only do the Iron Warriors man the walls, but they know all of its tricks, because the Fists themselves taught it to them.

[Cormac Airt 28th September 2012]

For the Imperial Fists, I think we can simply modify that clenched fist. Open the fist up so that it becomes a palm with curled fingers, revealing three weeping wounds in the palm, like infected bullet holes. Neatly turns the clenched fist of Dorn into a very zombie-like gesture, with a Nurgle reference within.

[Cormac Airt 2nd October 2012]

The Plague Fists could even adorn themselves (see what I did there?) with disembodied hands, for good measure.

[Olisredan 9th October 2012]

Rogal Dorn - The Monolithic Dead. The Imperial Fists are the implacability of death itself. Not the cold, clinical, metaphysical aspect of the Death Lord, but the harsh reality of decay and corruption. In the Death Guard, death comes to you. In the Imperial Fists, you come to death. It builds its impenetrable walls, releases its potent gasses, and waits for the living and the dead to come to it. They are the ultimate lurking horror, that of the corrupted core that can tear down all that was built upon it. The horror of the inevitability of a death that is no release.

(Siege of Macragge)

Guilliman would have Dorn with him, of course.

Way I see it is this: The Emperor makes planetfall following the initial assaults of the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard against Macragge, defended by the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.

[Cormac Airt 14th October 2012]

Edited February 20, 2013 by Olisredan

Wulfkry · February 21, 2013

Perhaps sigismunds black templars could be named; Templars of Decay, Pestilent Knights, Knights of Pestilence, or perhaps Rotted Templars/Templars of Rot.

Conn Eremon · February 21, 2013

As identifiers or descriptors, I like those titles. As their actual name, I'm going to stick to my guns and say keep it the Black Templars. Though I have toyed with the idea of calling them the Crusader Host, as it fits with their demeanor and role in the GH while having a Nurgle-like name.

Anyway, great job Olis. Reading over it really helps get all the information in your head at one time, to know all of the fluff we've written so far.

It helped me come up with an idea. I've never been comfortable with how the Fists divide themselves into separate Warbands/Chapters. That they do should be taken for granted, as well as into what. But the how never settled right with me. I think I might have it, though. The Imperial Fists remain with Dorn, we have a Crusader Host led by Sigismund, and we have a Chapter or Chapters led by various leaders and of various demeanors that are unaligned with those first two major Fist factions. How they split up can be beautifully tied in with the fall of Dorn. He's possessed by a daemonic Virus, and his conscience and sense of identity are assimilated into it. Changing himself from Dorn the Primarch to Dorn the virus animating his own corpse. And we have him infecting and animating others, creating a Plague of Undead where it's Dorn himself reanimating them. And it starts at Inwit, while his sons are dying around him and he loses his war against the Destroyer Hive (though the Destroyer itself loses, as the personality and identity of Dorn overpower it once they become one). And his sons are being killed by an immense army entirely animated by the Destroyer Hive. What if they're not being killed, but are killed. When Dorn becomes the Dornian Plague and raises his corpse from the throne room where it lay, there are no surviving Imperial Fists. So Dorn brings them back. Reanimates life into them, creating a strange amalgamation between their original identities and a bit of Dorn himself. Those Imperial Fists will never leave Dorn's side. For they are him, and he is them. It is this reanimated army that will remain as the Imperial Fists when the Legion breaks apart. Sigismund, however, does leave. Though he is present at Inwit, and therefore is slain and reanimated, we have Dorn sending a taskforce out to Guilliman, led by Sigismund himself. What happens when a fragment of a hive mind breaks away, and spends enough time in its early youth separate from its original whole? It creates its own unique identity. With Sigismund at its head, the taskforce sent out evolves separately from the rest of the Legion. This leads to the Crusader Host, a disease like that of the Dornian Plague but shaped not by Dorn but by Sigismund. Not a stalwart praetorian, but a fanatical champion. When the Legion fractures, it is only natural that the Black Templar and his Host are one of the independent Chapters. The bulk of the Legion remains with Dorn, though their numbers are greatly diminished following the Iron Warriors assault upon Inwit. The remaining Imperial Fists, those not present at Inwit (as I doubt the entire Legion was at Terra. 95% of it, sure, but not every last Fist), will still be turned into followers of Nurgle. They will follow their father's lead, though the manner of their fall will be dissimilar. These might not have a home among the Fists, as they do not share in Dorn's Hivemind, or among Sigismund's Host. They will fracture more truly, following their Captains into many Warhosts.

How about that? Does this sound like a cool idea for having the Imperial Fists fracture into the many Chaos Chapters? And if the Black Templars naming scheme is still an issue (honestly Olis, I don't remember if we came to an agreement), perhaps we have Sigismund be the Black Templar, but his force is called the Crusader Host, after the plague they carry?

And does this mean I should be expecting a IF IA draft soon?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Cormac Airt

Olis · February 21, 2013

*snip*

How about that? Does this sound like a cool idea for having the Imperial Fists fracture into the many Chaos Chapters? And if the Black Templars naming scheme is still an issue (honestly Olis, I don't remember if we came to an agreement), perhaps we have Sigismund be the Black Templar, but his force is called the Crusader Host, after the plague they carry?

Sounds pretty good to me.

I think I've also forgotten if we came to an agreement or not but, I must say, having the Black Templar leading the Crusader Host sounds spot on to me. Not only do I like the play on the word 'host' but it does leave room for colloquial sources to call them Black Templars.

Also, I've had an idea (which must be the first real GH idea I've had in about a month) about the Crimson Fists. You know how we've decided that although the Chaos Gods pet Legions are theirs and that they don't have complete dominion over all of the legionnaires? What if the Crimson Fists were swayed by a certain God that's got a liking for skulls? Essentially, they'd be red Imperial Fists with a berserker bent to them. Does that sound any good or is it a bunk idea? I know it's a little like cracking a nut with a sledgehammer in terms of subtlety but I thought I'd share my brainfart.

And does this mean I should be expecting a IF IA draft soon?

Ehh... I haven't started it yet but it is slated as my first one to do... :sweat:

Edited February 21, 2013 by Olisredan

Conn Eremon · February 21, 2013

Sounds pretty good to me.

I think I've also forgotten if we came to an agreement or not but, I must say, having the Black Templar leading the Crusader Host sounds spot on to me. Not only do I like the play on the word 'host' but it does leave room for colloquial sources to call them Black Templars.

Sold, then. Our pseudo-debate is thus settled.

Also,

I've had an idea (which must be the first real GH idea I've had in

about a month) about the Crimson Fists. You know how we've decided that

although the Chaos Gods pet Legions are theirs and that they don't have

complete dominion over all of the legionnaires? What if the Crimson

Fists were swayed by a certain God that's got a liking for skulls?

Essentially, they'd be red Imperial Fists with a berserker bent to them.

Does that sound any good or is it a bunk idea? I know it's a little

like cracking a nut with a sledgehammer in terms of subtlety but I

thought I'd share my brainfart.

Hm. I think I like the idea of alluding to the possibility of such a faction more than outright declaring one. Rather than saying the GH Crimson Fists are Khornates, maybe we have it like . . .

"By now Sigismund and his Crusader Host had acquired for themselves an identity too independent and self aware to properly return to the Legion, to merge back into the whole. They were the first and by far the grandest of the Imperial Fists to break away, but there were many gatherings of Legionaires who chose to make a name for themselves apart from their Primarch and former Legion. Some, such as the Bloody Handed, had chosen different paths and could no longer stand alongside their brothers."

And leave it that. No further mention, except perhaps having equivalent statements in the IAs of other God-specific Legions.

While I like the idea of having each Chaos God grabbing their own Legion, but not an entire Legion, a good one still, I think the best way to utilize such information is as a quietly spoken secret. It's possible this has happened, but you can't prove it.

Unless you read this thread, then hell. You know everything. Except that one thing I'm keeping away from the thread so that you won't know that. Ha!

Leofric · February 24, 2013

Hi, been keeping an eye on this topic as I find it very interesting (decently thought about AU 40k is good!)

I'm just not clear exactly on on the interpretation of how you're representing 'Dorn + Fists being one plague - literally'. It suggests a hive mind idea where you have no individuals left, every Fist is just an extension of Dorn. I mean that makes sense if you have Dorn literally reanimating his legion but it does turn them into effectively either a) WFB zombie horde in power armour, or b ) tyranid marines. It also makes the rise of Sigismund and his host as a seperate power more tricky. How does the Sigismund entity seperate off from Dorn, and how is it Sigismund if it was just an extension of Dorn's identity since the reanimation? Also given how reticient norm verse Dorn was about splitting his legion, nearly going to war over the issue (I know GH Dorn is not neccesaritly the same individual as regular dorn, but you have discussed this earlier), WHY would he allow a separate part of 'himself' to fully separate taking a significant chunk of 'his' body/plague with him? If it was not volountary then why would he allow this to happen again with the rise of other distict warbands?

If I've got the wrong end of the stick (never a good idea when discussing nurgle related topics :laugh.: ) then I apologise, but while I do quite like the idea of cadaverous aleady dead, plague infected Imperial fists, I'm less enamoured of turning them into another type of Thousand Sons just plague-ier and controlled by either Dorn or a seperate bit of Dorn (Like Sigismund, Alexis Pox/Pollux etc)

Edited February 24, 2013 by Leofric

Conn Eremon · February 25, 2013

Alexis Pox, nice.

Anyway, please feel free to do this as often as you feel like. Question us, I mean. It'll force us to take an additional look at it, which can only benefit the project, whether we go along with the suggestions or not.

Way I see it, these things are permanently set, by now:

Dorn is a virus that has reanimated his own corpse.

Dorn's sentience/conscience is a form of viral hivemind.

These are portrayed in a number of ways. Though his body moves and acts, it is a puppet connected to strings, whose mouth never moves when a thousand voices are emitted from it. He is the source of the plague that brings the dead back to life, reanimating them and amalgamating them into his hivemind.

Now, these are things we've just put forward:

The Imperial Fist Legion is reanimated by the Dornian Plague (working title, by the way, just like the sound of it and its similarity to the Dornian Heresy)

Sigismund commands a splinter force that exhibits its own, independent hivemind.

Your concerns with the new stuff is that it might make them too much like the canon Thousand Sons Traitor Legion and certain parts, such as the break off of Sigismund's group, is unbelievable.

Now, I don't want a clone of the canon Thousand Sons, so I will try to re-think the hivemind. Perhaps . . . what if it is merely a matter of will, force of personality and self-identity? Mortal humans simply can not keep their individuality when being reanimated. There are exceptional beings, perhaps. Important Cult Commanders who lead their zombie flocks. But by and large, the Legionnaires are better equipped to hold onto their individuality. Some might not have, but by their nature of being mindless they are the first to die in the coming wars. Very rapidly, all that would be left of the Legion would be those who held onto their sense of identity. But Dorn's hivemind is still present, ever-present. It merely manifests itself differently. It'd be like . . . Well, if anyone has ever read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series? If you haven't, don't. It's an amazing world he created and an interesting cast of characters but the author had certain . . . quirks that accumulated to make his work nigh unreadable. Like gender relations, dear God he could not do that without making everyone a sudden feminazi or dumb farmboy. Anyway, he had these female magic-casters called Aes Sedai, who would at times 'Bond' male warriors to them, called Wardens. This created a mental link between the two. Certain things, like actual language, could not be shared. But senses, emotions or intuition could. That and an unerring GPS for where the other was. I would like the idea of a individualistic Imperial Fists Legion to have their hivemind be like that. Dorn still reanimates the Legion, however the Legionnaires retain their individuality. The hivemind is ever-present, but is not all-commanding. Instead, it's a highly effective means of communication in which the Legion Commander, Dorn, has with every last one of his sons. They have a sense, a feeling, of what their Lord Primarch desires of each and every one of them to do. They would still do it unquestioningly, not as automatons but as warriors who have received their orders.

Now, the reason why I feel that Sigismund's Crusader Host would form a unique hivemind is still valid, I think. When the Imperial Fists Legion is reanimated by the corrupted Dorn, the hivemind is young, in a sense. It is inexperienced and not all that it will eventually become. With Dorn then commanding a significant portion of his Legion away, under Sigismund's command, Dorn's presence at the top of this hivemind disappears. However, it itself is still there, a remnant of Dorn's presence. Sigismund, being the commanding officer of this massive group, would eventually shift this remnant to him and absorb it. Take Dorn's place, for this Crusader Host. With enough time passing between when these two Legion groupings separate, the immature hivemind(s) will have become permanently entrenched and secure. By the time the Crusader Host meets back up with the remainder of the Legion, the two are unique individuals that can not be easily subsumed into each other. The rest could be explained as those Imperial Fists who were not part of the Inwit event, and were therefore acclimated to their new dark patron in different ways. Perhaps without any hivemind attachments or reanimations. These individuals, ranging from squads to Grand Companies, would therefore be separate from their changed Legion. Different than their reanimated brothers, though perhaps no less zealous in their Nurgle worship.

Now, why Dorn would be okay with this splitting, but not in the canon universe, is because of the above point. It's a big war going on, and there's no reason that the Legion would remain whole throughout the entire affair. No, certain Imperial Fists will break away to fight in certain battles, as Dorn would command. Only the biggest and greatest battles would have the entire Legion attend, like the Assault on Terra and Siege of Macragge. Sigismund, being the Legion's second-in-command, would be the likeliest choice to lead the largest faction of Imperial Fists outside of Dorn's own, and would be the most capable of being on its own for larger periods of time than others. Hence why Sigismund's Crusader Host gets its own hivemind. Now, with that as the set-up, why would Dorn in this universe oppose the official break-up of his Legion? It already has between him and Sigismund. Not only that, but canon Dorn was Guilliman's equal. Not so in the Guilliman Heresy. Guilliman is Dorn's Warmaster, his immediate superior. The break-up of his Legion wouldn't be the demand of an equal that could lead to war between them, it is an outright order of his commander. With these being the cases, the break-up of the Imperial Fists Legion would be a certainty, in my eyes. However, I would like to keep some of that hesitation on Dorn's part, making the Imperial Fist break ups fewer and the newly made factions larger than their counterparts in other Traitor Legions. The primary concentrations would be the main Imperial Fists Legion, those who would remain under Dorn's direct command, and Sigismund's Crusader Host. Between them, 80% of the original Legion could be accounted for, with Sigismund having the smaller of the two. The remaining twenty could be those Imperial Fists I mentioned above, those who are not part of the Inwit event and are separate, different from the rest of the Legion. They could band together and form their own identities, or they could choose to join in with one of the two. It'd be a nice thing to add. "Rejoin us, my sons. Die and live again, through me."

Does this appease you, Leofric? Or do you have further misgivings or questions?

Leofric · March 2, 2013

Sorry Its taken me so long to respond, all you've suggested makes sense (btw got as far as book 9 of WOT and agree with your assessment).

I think you correctly identified my concerns, the conversion of canon thousand sons into golems sorta woks with them and their sorcery focus, but I can't think you could apply it in any way with any other legion that it wouldn't be seen as a direct inimaginative copy. In addition, Marines are supersoldiers, by turning them into mindless walking suits of armour, you can't fail to loose something about what makes them epic (one of the reasons I like Brother-Captain Karlsson...).

With this theme I think you are turning the Fists/templars more into something akin to wights (WFB grave guard/blackknights) which is better, as it allows for individuals to have some personality and would probably look good in ill maintained Iron and crusader armour, I certainly think the Black/grave knight theme has a place in the fists/templars image.

it would also make a horrible foe to fight, Space marines (ie superfast super strong heavy infantry), who can shrug off damage that would kill normal plague marines because THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD, who can know about and react instantly to take adavantage of ANY circumstance affecting ANY of them in the force... I mean the Alpha legion is supposed to be good at co-ordination on the battlefield, but these guys would be a level above them... Add in plague related daemon nasties to taste

Would Dorns hatred of Psykers still apply? Would the fists make use of Nurgle sorcery or be more reliant on their 'natural' abilities to compensate? (or the Templars)

Will continue to observe :yes:

Olis · March 2, 2013

The 'wight' idea fits right in with my mental interpretation of the Plague Fists image. Gaunt, wasted figures rather than bloated, diseased shamblers is always how I've seen our Nurgle legion.

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Brutal close quarters melee boiled along the walkways and the habs of Ultorosk Hive, figures plunging hundreds of metres as they were forced over the railings. In the Governor's residence, traitor legionnaires checked the loyalist assault, step for step. Plush decor, burnt and damaged from days of combat lay where it fell, alongside the dead astartes sporadically marking places that had seen killing.

Knocking down his opponent, Cerrac plunged his combat blade into the damaged armour of the traitor. Lodged deep, the weapon refused to move as Cerrac pulled the handle. Fellow sons of Perturabo fought desperately to overcome their hardy foe, losing marines for every step forward they took. For every traitor that was dragged down, three of his killers died in response.

"You cannot kill us." Rasped the Fist with his blade in it's chest. Sharply pulling the Iron Warrior over onto his back, the Fist loomed over him and held his collar fast.

"We are dead already." Whispered another through dry lips. Cerrac only had a moment to register the battered and rusted bolt pistol before he died, his corpse among many, marking yet another fight in the marble halls.

Conn Eremon · March 4, 2013

I'm not all that knowledgeable about the many Warhammer Fantasy factions, but how you described those wights is definitely in keeping with what Olisredan and I had envisioned when first exploring the GH Fists. Not the bloated, gaseous Boomers of Left 4 Dead that the canon Death Guard are, but the wasted, ancient, gnarled figures of the living dead.

As for the psyker thing, perhaps he doesn't see it as a psychic gift. Since Dorn himself has become a sentient plague, the manipulation and control of the myriad gifts of Nurgle might not be seen as a manifestation of psychic abilities but is instead no different to him than swinging his sword arm.

I think I'd like the Imperial Fists to steer clear of pysker-hate, as these should be in the scope of the Blood Angels. Now, the Crusader Host might be something different.

Hm, how about this. Nurgle's opposite is Tzeentch. While the Blood Angels might hate all psykers, period, the Imperial Fists hold a specific grudge against Tzeentchian sorcerers. Perhaps an early conflict with the Iron Hands following their fall that affects all of Dorn's sons but the Crusader Host most of all. This could set the stage for an enduring rivalry/hatred that only a High Lord of the Omega Legion can convince them to set aside, for a time.

Which reminds me, with Guilliman gone but the Omega Legion retaining its ascendancy among the Traitor Legions, how are these High Lords able to retain the loyalties of the other Primarchs? Though we can have Dorn be the Warmaster's Champion and Sanguinius his hoped-for Emperor, with Guilliman gone they're top dogs. So, I thought about it and I think I came up with something believable. Remember how I said a while ago 'what if the Warmaster lived?' Well. What if that was a theme throughout the history of the Imperium. The truth is never known, and most believe it a lie, but still it persists. What if the Warmaster lived? To tie this into my point, what if the High Lords of the Omega Legion speak with Guilliman's voice? Guilliman is interred in the same manner as he is in canon, and the Omega Legion have him as their greatest shrine. What if the High Lords convince everyone, including the other Primarchs, that Guilliman still lives? And continues to give orders, through them? With that, the other Primarchs would believe that they are following the will of their Warmaster, not his upstart sons. Perhaps it's all a lie, nobody really knows. Every credible account states that Guilliman sits unmoving in stasis, for ten thousand years. And yet, it could be possible. And if the Warmaster is still alive, that means that one day he may walk among us once more. This idea of Guilliman still possibly being alive, even if it is only a story, a lie, could explain why he is still the Warmaster and that there has been no other after him, though the High Lords are close in power.

And if the Warmaster still lives, while the Lion lies captured by his more weak-hearted sons? Oh, that would rankle the traitor Angels. They would hate that, hate the idea that their true Warmaster lies defenseless, powerless, while his failure of a rival retains his power? That would definitely set the stage for one of the proposed ideas of the last thread, that the traitor Dark Angels, following the dissipation of a multitude of warpstorms that had kept them imprisoned for ten thousand years only to find the horrible reality of the future, would band together and in a surprise assault take Guilliman from the Omega Legion. Now, during the close of the 41st Millennium, coinciding with the canon 13th Black Crusade, the biggest force of traitor Dark Angels the Imperium has seen since the Heresy is hunting for the Rock, their ancestral home and the headquarters of their loyalist brethren, where they will sacrifice Guilliman to the Dark Gods in the hopes that they will grant them their Warmaster, the Lion El'jonson, back from whatever hell his mind had been cast into. And as they hunt for their Primarch, so too does the Omega Legion. And on the current day, 999.M41, the Traitor Angels will have found the Rock. And the Omega Legion has found them both. As the Rock re-supplies in orbit around the great foundries in orbit over the still-ruined world of Calth.

About the Wheel of Time thing: You're already that far into it, do finish it. You only got two more books of Jordan's atrocious 'quirks.' He died before he could finish it but was replaced by an author who was able to keep the characters the same without making them maddeningly irritating every time another gender popped up, either in person or in conversation. The final three books are actually enjoyable and refreshing once you see what a good author can do with Jordan's imagination. If only they'd found this out when he was still alive, the whole series could have been done as a shared project. Jordan's ideas, someone else's writing.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Olisredan's color piece. Well done on it. I like how you conveyed this hivemind thing by having the two Fist's speaking in that extremely comfortable way, where they're so used to each other's presence that they're able to finish each other's sentences. It immediately conveys a deep connection, and with the background of the scene lending it a paranormal feel to it worked well.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Cormac Airt

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The Guilliman Heresy

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