The Guilliman Heresy

[Olis]

As for the psyker thing, perhaps he doesn't see it as a psychic gift. Since Dorn himself has become a sentient plague, the manipulation and control of the myriad gifts of Nurgle might not be seen as a manifestation of psychic abilities but is instead no different to him than swinging his sword arm.

 

Indeed, an example of something similar would be boons (vintage and current representations) where some of the gifts are quite literally just that; gifts. Simply through the fact that daemonic powers are involved means that conventional associations with what is psychic and what is not can be warped to a degree (if you'll forgive the pun).

 

I think I'd like the Imperial Fists to steer clear of pysker-hate, as these should be in the scope of the Blood Angels. Now, the Crusader Host might be something different.

 

Just as an aside, the Blood Angels, during the Crusade (at least in canon), are pro-psykers and were one of the founding Legions of the Librarius department. Question is, do we want to change that outlook and event in this universe or do we want to have a crisis/turning point where Librarians end up being reviled by the Blood for the Blood Angels? 

 

Hm, how about this. Nurgle's opposite is Tzeentch. While the Blood Angels might hate all psykers, period, the Imperial Fists hold a specific grudge against Tzeentchian sorcerers. Perhaps an early conflict with the Iron Hands following their fall that affects all of Dorn's sons but the Crusader Host most of all. This could set the stage for an enduring rivalry/hatred that only a High Lord of the Omega Legion can convince them to set aside, for a time.

 

Maybe this would be part of an over-arcing yarn related to a Black Crusade? Perhaps the Crusade Host is sent, as a vanguard, to take care of the Burning Angel (I'll talk about him later). Now, why they want the Burning Angel dead, I don't know. I haven't got that far yet. But what is interesting is that instead of finding him, they come across Iron Hands. Bippity boppity boo, after a bit of a slap fight, the Iron Hands enact some sort of machine-witchery and the Crusade Host finds itself bereft of Dorn's influence (although still essentially Plague Fists). The Black Templar is then, for the first time in however many hundreds of years, fully able to decide his own actions. These Fists are his now, not Dorn's. But he's still loyal - loyal enough to return to Dorn despite the severed connection. Dorn may not be pleased but there is little he can do. The Fists affected are already 'dead' and already afflicted with the Dornian Hive. He can't re-infect them, no matter how hard he tries. 

 

(Btw, the Burning Angel is that flaming, chained figure in this picture. According to an Emperor's Children short story, Fabius Bile had acquired the marine from the world of Murder. In this version of the Heresy, a similar Burning Angel could be the product of the Lion's machinations. Food for thought.)

 

 

Which reminds me, with Guilliman gone but the Omega Legion retaining its ascendancy among the Traitor Legions, how are these High Lords able to retain the loyalties of the other Primarchs? Though we can have Dorn be the Warmaster's Champion and Sanguinius his hoped-for Emperor, with Guilliman gone they're top dogs.  So, I thought about it and I think I came up with something believable. Remember how I said a while ago 'what if the Warmaster lived?' Well. What if that was a theme throughout the history of the Imperium. The truth is never known, and most believe it a lie, but still it persists. What if the Warmaster lived? To tie this into my point, what if the High Lords of the Omega Legion speak with Guilliman's voice? Guilliman is interred in the same manner as he is in canon, and the Omega Legion have him as their greatest shrine. What if the High Lords convince everyone, including the other Primarchs, that Guilliman still lives? And continues to give orders, through them? With that, the other Primarchs would believe that they are following the will of their Warmaster, not his upstart sons. Perhaps it's all a lie, nobody really knows. Every credible account states that Guilliman sits unmoving in stasis, for ten thousand years. And yet, it could be possible. And if the Warmaster is still alive, that means that one day he may walk among us once more. This idea of Guilliman still possibly being alive, even if it is only a story, a lie, could explain why he is still the Warmaster and that there has been no other after him, though the High Lords are close in power.

 

And if the Warmaster still lives, while the Lion lies captured by his more weak-hearted sons? Oh, that would rankle the traitor Angels. They would hate that, hate the idea that their true Warmaster lies defenseless, powerless, while his failure of a rival retains his power? That would definitely set the stage for one of the proposed ideas of the last thread, that the traitor Dark Angels, following the dissipation of a multitude of warpstorms that had kept them imprisoned for ten thousand years only to find the horrible reality of the future, would band together and in a surprise assault take Guilliman from the Omega Legion. Now, during the close of the 41st Millennium, coinciding with the canon 13th Black Crusade, the biggest force of traitor Dark Angels the Imperium has seen since the Heresy is hunting for the Rock, their ancestral home and the headquarters of their loyalist brethren, where they will sacrifice Guilliman to the Dark Gods in the hopes that they will grant them their Warmaster, the Lion El'jonson, back from whatever hell his mind had been cast into. And as they hunt for their Primarch, so too does the Omega Legion. And on the current day, 999.M41, the Traitor Angels will have found the Rock. And the Omega Legion has found them both. As the Rock re-supplies in orbit around the great foundries in orbit over the still-ruined world of Calth.

 

Sounds good, although I'd want to add a little warp-craft to the whole stasis idea. Sub in some sort of bacta-tank device (powered by the souls of kittens or something) for the stasis device. Just to make it different enough from canon so that there is parallels but not direct correlation. Of course, with Guilliman floating in a tank full of greenish liquid and a mask on his face, no-one who holds court with Guilliman and his mouth-pieces (or envoys or whatever) knows for sure whether his eyes are closed or not.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention Olisredan's color piece. Well done on it. I like how you conveyed this hivemind thing by having the two Fist's speaking in that extremely comfortable way, where they're so used to each other's presence that they're able to finish each other's sentences. It immediately conveys a deep connection, and with the background of the scene lending it a paranormal feel to it worked well.

 

Thanks. It's good to hear praise for my scribblings. I all too often reread what I write and think about worry what I could have done better so knowing that the main point (how the Fists act and interact) has been conveyed then that's always a positive thing.   :)

[Conn Eremon]

During the Blood Angels fall is where I have the schism occur between normal Marines and Librarians. The Librarians are the ones who foresee the Angel's fall, and work together to save him. Reading 'Fear to Tread' validated a lot of this, as what I had written up is seen also in that book, though I'm sure the reason for that is that what I had written was in response to those whose ideas were shaped by having already read that book rather than me anticipating a similar danger to the Blood Angels as a BL author. Some of the Marines who had become more tainted however, see what they are doing as harmful rather than healing. He moves forward and kills a Librarian. Instinctively, the other Librarians kill this Marine with psyker powers. This is followed by a silent moment where the fate of the Legion literally hangs in the balance, as the Librarians surround their fallen Primarch and Marines losing control over their anger surround them. That moment of shock is broken just as their control is broken, as the Marines swarm the Librarians.  As almost all of the Librarius was present, these maddened Blood Angels slay almost all of their gifted brethren. With the winners spreading the story of what happened, the Blood Angels feel that the Librarians have betrayed them and their Primarch as they spiral ever further down into damnation, unwittingly taking their Primarch with them. By the time Sanguinius awakes, there are no psyker Blood Angels. With Khorne's favor burning Sanguinius' own abilities out, the image of that of a psyker betrayal becomes indelibly imprinted upon the Legion's outlook.

 

Hm. About the Crusader Host and the Iron Hands. While I like it, it puts the splitting of the Legion later than I had thought it should be. Rather than immediately following the Siege of Macragge, that'd be after almost a century has passed.

 

You know what, nevermind. It's a good idea, I like it. We can change things around so that the Imperial Fists are the last hold-out of staying a true Legion. Perhaps because of their Dornian Hive (much better than Dornian Plague or hivemind, thank you) thing, and to provide a correlation to Dorn's canon reluctance, and perhaps because with Guilliman dead Dorn doesn't take his orders anymore. Until he discovers he is actually still alive. Maybe. However, the Iron Hands' interference creates such a disturbance and separation that the Warmaster-mandated divisions become unavoidable.

 

And the Guilliman Bacta Tank thing is good, go on ahead and just swap what I've written with those details.

 

I had some ideas of making the Burning Angel in the GH a Tzeentchian sorcerer, one of those characters that reminds the reader of the canon Burning Angel (there'll be a different name) and therefore allude to the possibility of Traitor Legionnaires who went for different Gods than the one who took their entire Legion. However, we could trade our ideas on it and come to a unified decision on which one to go for, or which one to base off of the canon Burning Angel if we want to keep both.

[Olis]

During the Blood Angels fall is where I have the schism occur between normal Marines and Librarians. The Librarians are the ones who foresee the Angel's fall, and work together to save him. Reading 'Fear to Tread' validated a lot of this, as what I had written up is seen also in that book, though I'm sure the reason for that is that what I had written was in response to those whose ideas were shaped by having already read that book rather than me anticipating a similar danger to the Blood Angels as a BL author.

 

Funny how that worked out, isn't it? :D 

 

Some of the Marines who had become more tainted however, see what they are doing as harmful rather than healing. He moves forward and kills a Librarian. Instinctively, the other Librarians kill this Marine with psyker powers. This is followed by a silent moment where the fate of the Legion literally hangs in the balance, as the Librarians surround their fallen Primarch and Marines losing control over their anger surround them. That moment of shock is broken just as their control is broken, as the Marines swarm the Librarians.  As almost all of the Librarius was present, these maddened Blood Angels slay almost all of their gifted brethren. With the winners spreading the story of what happened, the Blood Angels feel that the Librarians have betrayed them and their Primarch as they spiral ever further down into damnation, unwittingly taking their Primarch with them. By the time Sanguinius awakes, there are no psyker Blood Angels. With Khorne's favor burning Sanguinius' own abilities out, the image of that of a psyker betrayal becomes indelibly imprinted upon the Legion's outlook.

 

 Having read most of FtT, I think it'd be a good idea to start with the ritual going as it had in canon (with the odd Librarian burning out at regular intervals) but before any good can be brought about, one of the Wardens kills Kano (Annelus might be a good candidate for that). Then the Librarians defend themselves, as you have said, before the other Blood Angels mob them. Now, as far as the mob goes, a decent candidate for a ringleader is Captain Amit as he's the most far gone of the Blood Angels in canon. 

 

Speaking of Amit, I'd like to push him as our Khârn counterpart in this universe. Now, I'm not advocating that Amit becomes a Betrayer-alike, or that Khorne resurrects him at any point, just that the niche of a Khornate Champion goes to Amit Flesh Tearer. 

 

Hm. About the Crusader Host and the Iron Hands. While I like it, it puts the splitting of the Legion later than I had thought it should be. Rather than immediately following the Siege of Macragge, that'd be after almost a century has passed.

 

You know what, nevermind. It's a good idea, I like it. We can change things around so that the Imperial Fists are the last hold-out of staying a true Legion. Perhaps because of their Dornian Hive (much better than Dornian Plague or hivemind, thank you) thing, and to provide a correlation to Dorn's canon reluctance, and perhaps because with Guilliman dead Dorn doesn't take his orders anymore. Until he discovers he is actually still alive. Maybe. However, the Iron Hands' interference creates such a disturbance and separation that the Warmaster-mandated divisions become unavoidable.

 

Not that I was deliberately pushing the timeline of the split back a few tens or hundreds of years but now that we speak of it, it seems to work well that way. 

 

And the Guilliman Bacta Tank thing is good, go on ahead and just swap what I've written with those details.

 

Glad you like the notion. Although the idea takes it's cues from the Star Wars universe, I'd like to try to morph or mutate the construct enough that it only bears a passing resemblance to the original influence. The first and most obvious thing we can do, as I've stated already, is to fuel it with souls/daemons. Second is to change the fundamental appearance - I think a glass tube filled with liquid just ain't going to cut it. Maybe make it a metal tube with a window slit in it? Thoughts on that would be welcome. Thirdly is it's function. The fundamental thing it must do is keep Guilliman alive. So in order to do that, I suggest having Apothecaries monitor/operate the device, or at least keep it clean.  

 

I had some ideas of making the Burning Angel in the GH a Tzeentchian sorcerer, one of those characters that reminds the reader of the canon Burning Angel (there'll be a different name) and therefore allude to the possibility of Traitor Legionnaires who went for different Gods than the one who took their entire Legion. However, we could trade our ideas on it and come to a unified decision on which one to go for, or which one to base off of the canon Burning Angel if we want to keep both.

 

I kinda like the epithet of ' the Burning Angel' tbh, but I am open to alternatives. Making him Tzeentchian would work well with the whole Iron Hands/Crusade Host situation, as the Burning Angel [working moniker], has natural allies in them. Perhaps the reason why he's called the Burning Angel [working moniker] is because he's swathed in warpfire, which would be of his own doing rather than as a consequence of his enemies doing ill to him.

[Conn Eremon]

 

Having read most of FtT, I think it'd be a good idea to start with the ritual going as it had in canon (with the odd Librarian burning out at regular intervals) but before any good can be brought about, one of the Wardens kills Kano (Annelus might be a good candidate for that). Then the Librarians defend themselves, as you have said, before the other Blood Angels mob them. Now, as far as the mob goes, a decent candidate for a ringleader is Captain Amit as he's the most far gone of the Blood Angels in canon.

 

Speaking of Amit, I'd like to push him as our Khârn counterpart in this universe. Now, I'm not advocating that Amit becomes a Betrayer-alike, or that Khorne resurrects him at any point, just that the niche of a Khornate Champion goes to Amit Flesh Tearer. 

 

 

I remember bringing up that the Wardens might be the ones to lead the Legion down into bloody oblivion, so having them be the ones who strike the first blow is fitting.

 

I think having Azkaellon be the ringleader works best. He is the head of the Sanguinary Guard, tasked with the protection of their Primarch. Thanks to the persuasion of a Warden (name dropping too many FtT characters might be a bit much, perhaps keep it as the main characters that have always been a part, leaving HH characters to color pieces and occasional screen time), and seeing this Warden's demise, he's the one who unleashes the Angels.

 

Having Captain Amit, the Fleshtearer, as the most exalted Champion of Khorne is a nice idea. It reminds me of Lucius, who is a simple warrior-captain and yet earns more of his God's favor than those higher up the food chain. To change it up a bit, remember how we had the Blood Angels be the 'honorable' Khornates? There would still be the Black Rage victims, nothing more than mindless berserkers, but those are the lesser brethren. But it'd be a nice contradiction if the one most exalted in the eyes of their liege deity is in fact one of these lesser brethren. Azkaellon may have retained a false sense of nobility, but the Fleshtearer, leader of the largest Warband of Blood Angel berzerkers and the most monstrous of them all, who takes the most after their altered Primarch. Maybe he could be a true Khârn, just refluff the 'betrayal.' If there is no enemy blood to spill, their own will just fine. But it's not Amit turning on his brothers, it's his brothers sacrificing themselves so that the Fleshtearer need never go a moment without taking blood, though they keep a large stock of cultist slaves for that purpose. I think of the Fleshtearer as a unarmed rage-vampire. His hardened nails can penetrate any armor, where he will proceed to drain the blood of those unfortunate enough to be within his reach. He is the River of Blood made manifest. So long as it flows unceasingly, the Fleshtearer will thrive. If ever the blood ceases to flow, Khorne shall shift his favor to another. For ten thousand years, the blood has flowed.

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps only the Apothecaries and High Lords know. Guilliman has been implanted into a great mausoleum, reminiscent of the Parthenon to keep that Roman/Greek theme. Those Apothecaries given the privilege and honor to work upon their Primarch's battered frame enter, but are never allowed to leave. Only the High Lords of the Omega Legion can enter and leave with impunity. Some say that the Apothecaries are coming closer to resurrecting their liege. Others say that the Apothecaries never leave because their true purpose is as sacrifices to the Dark Gods, to lend their souls as strength for their weakened lord. When the Dark Angels took Guilliman from this place, they left no survivors. As to be expected, for no one could take their Primarch for as long as one of his defender's still draws breath. They have since stowed him away, letting none see him. What Guilliman looks like, or how the apparatus that keeps him alive works, none who know speak of it.

 

Not that I was deliberately pushing the timeline of the split back a few tens or hundreds of years but now that we speak of it, it seems to work well that way.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps this event makes the Legion aware of how the psyker powers not derived from Father Nurgle (does the Imperial Fists look upon their God with love? Heh "We're adopted.") are disruptive to the symbiotic connections they've developed. For as long as a psyker is present, their connection with each other and their Primarch grows weak. For some, it even disrupts how it animates their corpses and they fall to true death. In fact, outside of total dissolution, it's the only way to truly kill an Imperial Fist. You can incapacitate them, but given time that same Marine will resurface. Well, their presence makes it grow weak, but the use of powers, especially in a large collection or from a powerful psyker, has a greater affect and can even kill an Imperial Fist. The Iron Hands event completely severs the Crusader Host from the Dornian Hive, and Dorn refuses to be present in any war or battle in which the Emperor takes part.

 

Here's an idea.

487.M37 The Space Hulk 'Convergence of Misery' is found in orbit over Isseldor IV. Reports from the Isseldor system confirm the presence of the daemon known as Fateweaver, before the system utterly grows dark. Nearby system of Cravnix readies itself to defend against this threat, having felt the immense pressure of the Space Hulk traveling through the Warp towards them. However, the pressure unexpectedly vanishes and the Space Hulk never arrives. This was fortunate for the Cravnix system as they are unexpectedly struck by a devastating unknown plague during preparation and would have been an easy target.

 

932.M38 A plague-ridden Space Hulk 'Poisonous Life' threatens the Karaikin Sector. However, the investigations of the Alpha Legion discover that this Space Hulk was once classified as the 'Convergence of Misery.'

 

With the two informational pieces being at least a page or two apart, or even in separate pieces. Such as the first being in the Chaos Booklet (I feel it's wrong to call them Codices without GW approval, despite calling the articles IA's . . . Hypocrisy!) and the second being in the Alpha Legion IA, or perhaps the Space Marine Booklet.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Cormac Airt

[Olis]

I think having Azkaellon be the ringleader works best. He is the head of the Sanguinary Guard, tasked with the protection of their Primarch. Thanks to the persuasion of a Warden (name dropping too many FtT characters might be a bit much, perhaps keep it as the main characters that have always been a part, leaving HH characters to color pieces and occasional screen time), and seeing this Warden's demise, he's the one who unleashes the Angels.

 

I agree about the name dropping - I got a little ahead of myself there. 

 

Having Captain Amit, the Fleshtearer, as the most exalted Champion of Khorne is a nice idea. It reminds me of Lucius, who is a simple warrior-captain and yet earns more of his God's favor than those higher up the food chain. To change it up a bit, remember how we had the Blood Angels be the 'honorable' Khornates? There would still be the Black Rage victims, nothing more than mindless berserkers, but those are the lesser brethren. But it'd be a nice contradiction if the one most exalted in the eyes of their liege deity is in fact one of these lesser brethren. Azkaellon may have retained a false sense of nobility, but the Fleshtearer, leader of the largest Warband of Blood Angel berzerkers and the most monstrous of them all, who takes the most after their altered Primarch. Maybe he could be a true Khârn, just refluff the 'betrayal.' If there is no enemy blood to spill, their own will just fine. But it's not Amit turning on his brothers, it's his brothers sacrificing themselves so that the Fleshtearer need never go a moment without taking blood, though they keep a large stock of cultist slaves for that purpose. I think of the Fleshtearer as a unarmed rage-vampire. His hardened nails can penetrate any armor, where he will proceed to drain the blood of those unfortunate enough to be within his reach. He is the River of Blood made manifest. So long as it flows unceasingly, the Fleshtearer will thrive. If ever the blood ceases to flow, Khorne shall shift his favor to another. For ten thousand years, the blood has flowed.

 

Amit would certainly present the berserker side of our Blood Angels, there's no doubt considering his character. Having him rend and kill with his own bare hands does lead a savagery to him not present in canon Khârn, maybe he could have some daemonic claws/nails/fingers/whatever (I'm thinking of things like the Genestealer hands that look human-ish or simple human hands that have a clawing pose to them). 

 

Perhaps only the Apothecaries and High Lords know. Guilliman has been implanted into a great mausoleum, reminiscent of the Parthenon to keep that Roman/Greek theme. Those Apothecaries given the privilege and honor to work upon their Primarch's battered frame enter, but are never allowed to leave. Only the High Lords of the Omega Legion can enter and leave with impunity. Some say that the Apothecaries are coming closer to resurrecting their liege. Others say that the Apothecaries never leave because their true purpose is as sacrifices to the Dark Gods, to lend their souls as strength for their weakened lord. When the Dark Angels took Guilliman from this place, they left no survivors. As to be expected, for no one could take their Primarch for as long as one of his defender's still draws breath. They have since stowed him away, letting none see him. What Guilliman looks like, or how the apparatus that keeps him alive works, none who know speak of it.

 

Interesting thought. Perhaps instead of anyone 'meeting' with Guilliman, they could only be allowed to see his body via a pict-link or something, supplied by whichever High Lord they'd be meeting with. It would beg the question of how the machine would keep operating in the care of the Dark Angels, however. Presumably, they wouldn't know how to.

 

Perhaps this event makes the Legion aware of how the psyker powers not derived from Father Nurgle (does the Imperial Fists look upon their God with love? Heh "We're adopted.") are disruptive to the symbiotic connections they've developed. For as long as a psyker is present, their connection with each other and their Primarch grows weak. For some, it even disrupts how it animates their corpses and they fall to true death. In fact, outside of total dissolution, it's the only way to truly kill an Imperial Fist. You can incapacitate them, but given time that same Marine will resurface. Well, their presence makes it grow weak, but the use of powers, especially in a large collection or from a powerful psyker, has a greater affect and can even kill an Imperial Fist. The Iron Hands event completely severs the Crusader Host from the Dornian Hive, and Dorn refuses to be present in any war or battle in which the Emperor takes part. 

 

Perhaps it'd be a little like the DnD way of killing Trolls - they can only die from acid or fire, anything else simply won't kill them. So, supplied with a portion of Dorn's essence, if it is countered by direct (and harmful) psychic power, the connection to the primarch dissolves. With the Crusade Host severed from Dorn, the only thing that changes really is the individuality of the marines. They can still be killed like all the other Plague Fists but they don't exhibit the same hive-mind state, or at least to the same degree.

 

Here's an idea.

487.M37 The Space Hulk 'Convergence of Misery' is found in orbit over Isseldor IV. Reports from the Isseldor system confirm the presence of the daemon known as Fateweaver, before the system utterly grows dark. Nearby system of Cravnix readies itself to defend against this threat, having felt the immense pressure of the Space Hulk traveling through the Warp towards them. However, the pressure unexpectedly vanishes and the Space Hulk never arrives. This was fortunate for the Cravnix system as they are unexpectedly struck by a devastating unknown plague during preparation and would have been an easy target.

 

932.M38 A plague-ridden Space Hulk 'Poisonous Life' threatens the Karaikin Sector. However, the investigations of the Alpha Legion discover that this Space Hulk was once classified as the 'Convergence of Misery.'

 

With the two informational pieces being at least a page or two apart, or even in separate pieces. Such as the first being in the Chaos Booklet (I feel it's wrong to call them Codices without GW approval, despite calling the articles IA's . . . Hypocrisy!) and the second being in the Alpha Legion IA, or perhaps the Space Marine Booklet.

 

Two linked events (albeit relatively minor ones) would serve us well to interlink timeline events and provide a greater sense of story, or meaning to this universe. I suggest we call the IA's something like Chronicles or Tracts or Lexicons, as I think calling them Booklets is a tad... mundane. :)

[Conn Eremon]

I meant by Booklets the Codex-like creations we'll create following the IA's. The IA's are the Guilliman Heresy, the Codex-like things are the everything else. Like an Imperator one that is all about the Imperium of Man, providing ten thousand years of history and the status quo of the present day. I think calling those Lexicons works well, and perhaps calling the IA's Chronicles could work. That way we're not literally re-making GW's work, just imagining our own DIY on a very grand scale.

 

This computer sucks at the scrolling (for some reason, the break computer lags like mad on this site), so I'm going to forego quotes and hopefully you'll understand which ones I'm talking about.

 

Amit should have human hands, with at the most inch-long talons. Sort of like how the Space Wolves are portrayed, slightly elongated, toughened, sharpened nails. Not enough to be outright supernatural, but enough to give it a bestial appearance as he utilizes them with an unstoppable fury. Making anything on him less than, or more than, human to a certain degree may make him seem daemonic, and the thing about the Champions is that they're not. They're plain Marines with a lot of deific favor, but not ascendants.

 

Perhaps the Dark Angels need to keep him alive. They can't sacrifice something that's already dead, right? So they take all of those who operate the machinery, or learn enough to do so themselves. Maybe they take many slaves to sacrifice them for Guilliman, or they take all of the Apothecaries, perhaps for the same purpose as those slaves. Maybe they lock Guilliman in a stasis to keep him as he is when they take him, knowing that as soon as he's let out he will finally die. Perhaps that's their means of sacrifice. Steal him, take him to the Rock, then release the stasis field in the midst of a grand ritual, taking Guilliman's dying energies to rejuvenate their recumbent Lion.

 

About the Imperial Fists, pretty much, yeah. You can't just land a killing blow. You have to utterly incapacitate them. Burn them to a crisp works, as well as acid to burn through their muscle tissue. Dismemberment isn't as successful, for there have been reports of disembodied appendages clinging to life, and often to their killer as well.

 

Interesting that the one group in 40k that may be able to stand up against these Imperial Fists are the Necrons. With their weapons technology, they'd be just as effective against the GH Fists as any other foe. Perhaps there's some hatred there. The one foe they can't infect, who remind them so much of the despicable Iron Hands, whose weapons utterly ignore the resiliences gifted to their bodies by Dorn.

[Olis]

Amit should have human hands, with at the most inch-long talons. Sort of like how the Space Wolves are portrayed, slightly elongated, toughened, sharpened nails. Not enough to be outright supernatural, but enough to give it a bestial appearance as he utilizes them with an unstoppable fury. Making anything on him less than, or more than, human to a certain degree may make him seem daemonic, and the thing about the Champions is that they're not. They're plain Marines with a lot of deific favor, but not ascendants.

 

I'm cool with this. :)

 

Perhaps the Dark Angels need to keep him alive. They can't sacrifice something that's already dead, right? So they take all of those who operate the machinery, or learn enough to do so themselves. Maybe they take many slaves to sacrifice them for Guilliman, or they take all of the Apothecaries, perhaps for the same purpose as those slaves. Maybe they lock Guilliman in a stasis to keep him as he is when they take him, knowing that as soon as he's let out he will finally die. Perhaps that's their means of sacrifice. Steal him, take him to the Rock, then release the stasis field in the midst of a grand ritual, taking Guilliman's dying energies to rejuvenate their recumbent Lion.

 

I like this bit. Whack him is stasis to use at a later date. Speaking of using him at a later date - just how long do you think they'd hold onto him for? A century?

 

Interesting that the one group in 40k that may be able to stand up against these Imperial Fists are the Necrons. With their weapons technology, they'd be just as effective against the GH Fists as any other foe. Perhaps there's some hatred there. The one foe they can't infect, who remind them so much of the despicable Iron Hands, whose weapons utterly ignore the resiliences gifted to their bodies by Dorn.

 

This is a delicious little thought. Necron weaponry is anathema to the Imperial Fists while they are less dangerous to the Necrons. I can just imagine Sigismund busting a blood-vessel (figuratively speaking) trying to find a way of effecting a victory in his first encounter with the Silent King.

[Conn Eremon]

My mental timeframe for the Dark Angels having Guilliman was perhaps 1-2 decades, but that's open to change. I certainly want it to be one of the endgame events, something that is happening suddenly and immediately. In 999.M41, the Calth system is over-run by traitor Dark Angels, focusing their assaults on the Rock, currently in a vulnerable position. Though many pleas for aid have been sent out and acknowledged, the first to intervene are not saviors. The Omega Legion appears en masse, their goals twofold. Retrieve their Primarch. Leave no survivors. Led by the Tetrarch, the oldest High Lord still living, the odds are in their favor. Though battleforces of the Emperor's Children, War Hounds and Alpha Legion are en route, they may not arrive in time.

 

Hm. Maybe instead of the Silent King, it's his opposite, the Stormlord. The one who tries for a reborn Necron Empire, who aims to steal the power of the Silent King. And it is the first encounter the Necrons have with human forces outside of those already on the worlds they have taken for themselves. When the Necrons rise, they easily brush aside the defenders of the worlds they have taken. When the first response arrives, it's in the form of the Imperial Fists (perhaps answering the screaming prayers of dying Nurgle cultists on some random tombworld?). However, this military response is easily brushed aside by the Necrons of this world, and Imotekh comes to the realization that this "Imperium of Man" must be utterly weak, if this is the best they can do. Though the Imperium will definitely show itself to be a tougher opponent, this first encounter with the Astartes colors the opinions of the Necrons, justifying their rapid and aggressive expansions. And to the Imperial Fists, this outrages them. They are the undying, they are the everlasting. Not these perverted machines. To find they exist at all is an affront to them. To wage war so inneffectively against them is the greatest insult they have ever had to endure for ten thousand years. Perhaps it is the Necrons that brings the Imperial Fists more closely into the fold of Traitor alliances, more subservient to the High Lords of the Omega Legion. They can't be rid of the Necrons on their own, they'll need aid, though the idea of it rankles them. So they will do as the High Lords ask, so long as they aid them in utterly exterminating this disgusting breed.

 

Interestingly, they'll find an ally in this with the Iron Hands, whose opinions of the Necrons will mirror the Imperial Fists, though for different reasons. Though this goes nowhere to breaking the ice between them, it's an interesting contradiction.

[Olis]

I'm cool with it being the Storm Lord rather than the Silent King. Tbh I just wrote the first Necron specific character that came to mind. :P

[Grey Knight Purifier]

So kinda off topic, but is there any way that even one Imperial Fist can stay Loyal? Some kind of solitary, knight errant kind of character?

[Olis]

It'd make for an interesting footnote, although judging by how the original Heresy panned out and this Heresy muddying the water, it's entirely likely that more than one Fist remained loyal. However, I'd be inclined to stomp on them a bit. (And this is coming from a pro-Imperial Fist guy. :P)

 

Not keen on turning him/them into knight errant characters as it's kinda the territory of Luther's Dark Angels. It's their shtick. 

[Conn Eremon]

In the canon Horus Heresy series, we saw with the Isstvan Massacre just how many loyalists were among the Traitor Legions. The loyalist Dark Angels (and the canon Fallen for that matter) are our response to the idea of a Traitor Legion inadequately purging its ranks of loyalists. As Olisredan said, it's their schtick. Though there can be some areas of overlap, I feel that only one should be given the spotlight on it. Any others are relegated to rumors of dubious origins. This is like the idea of having members of the Traitor Legions vowing their souls to a different God than their brothers, such as a Tzeentchian Blood Angel Sorcerer. The Blood Angels are Khornate, therefore any idea of such a Sorcerer would be a small rumor that we'll mix into the finished products to give it some meat. Same for the idea of any Imperial Fist 'knight errants.' That's the loyalist Dark Angels, they'll get that spotlight. The idea of any loyalist Imperial Fists will be little more than rumor.

 

Honestly, if I was going to run with that idea, I'd have it be confused pict-recordings of an ancient battle, immediately following the Heresy, where unknown golden-armored Marines fight to the last man against an encroachment of Plague Fists. Later historians/researchers believe that they may have been Custodians wearing experimental armor similar in design to those of the Legio Astartes. And leave that as the only potential clue as to loyalist Imperial Fists, albeit short-lived ones.

 

We certainly seem to like the idea of muddied waters as to loyalties, but as far as I know we're sticking to the idea that there won't be any overt mentions of any examples, just potential rumors and clues riddled throughout the finished products (currently codenamed 'Lexicons'). They're not there so that readers can know that it's Guilliman Heresy 'canon,' but to allow anyone who wishes to explore their own ideas or possibly even armies (it'd be the greatest compliment we could get, outside of a BL author's kudoes, unlikely as that would be) do so in whichever manner they so choose. Though the GH Imperial Fists are pledged to Nurgle, feel free to make a loyalist/Khornate/Malal/Tau/whatever Imperial Fist army you like. We won't contradict it, we will only validate the potential possibility of it.

[Wade Garrett]

 

Though the GH Imperial Fists are pledged to Nurgle, feel free to make a loyalist/Khornate/Malal/Tau/whatever Imperial Fist army you like.

 

DOUBLE PLUS EXTRA HERESY!

[Grey Knight Purifier]

So we have Nurgle Fists right now? If possible, could I possibly contribute an article regarding the turning of Sigismund?

 

Actually, what concrete details do we have on the whole Inwit thing? Aside from the fact that the Fists failed to crush a rebellion?

[[TA]Typher]

Pure Heresy... the OP should be purged by the Inquisition.

[Ace Debonair]

Pure Heresy... the OP should be purged by the Inquisition.

 

What startling insight.

 

 

On another note, is it just me, or did the image of Dorn literally controlling his whole legion prompt anyone else to think of Harbinger from Mass Effect controlling the collectors?

 

'Cause I could see that sort of working - Dorn shifts more of his presence, so to speak, into a marine facing a particularly difficult challenge, imbuing him with greater strength and so forth, until that marine is either slain or triumphant.

 

And if Dorn were to preface such events with the words 'ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL', well that's entirely his prerogative.

[Conn Eremon]

<p>Due to technical problems with my computer, I've never been able to get Mass Effect to work and have been unable to play it. So I have no idea what you're talking about.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>If we want to take them away from the Thousand Son mummies, we should probably avoid things like Dorn 'assuming direct control.' Lending aid through the Hive is a possibility, but perhaps that might be going too far down the canon TS path as well. I think of it a bit like the Tyranid swarms. Each member is a part of this overarching intelligence, however there are certain members in which it is localized, concentrated. With the Tyranids, these were the synapses, and with the Imperial Fists they'd be ranking officers. Instead of a Swarmlord, you have the Primarch Dorn. But because we don't want the Imperial Fists to be undead Tyranids, I've been re-interpreting the Dornian Hive (Olis' term for it, and I like it better than my own attempts at naming it) so that it's less about control and more about communication. Each and every last Marine has something of Dorn within them, bolstering and rejuvenating them. This connection gives them a sort of intuitive feel about many things. What Dorn wants of them, where their brothers are, what they are doing, the lay of the land, the movement/actions of the enemy, etc. It's a vastly more efficient communication system that doesn't rely on language or sensory-perception. However, the Imperial Fists retain their independence. They remain free-thinking individuals. Dorn doesn't over-ride his sons' minds and animate them entirely under his control, as he might mortal cultists. However, Rogal Dorn is no more. The Dornian Hive is the sum total of his being. Dorn does, however, animate and directly control his own corpse (and remakes it again and again, creating a very zombie/frankenstein looking beast, using his body as a temple for Nurgle while attempting to retain his original appearance), because he still thinks of himself as a warrior-leader. Dorn is the focus of this Dornian Hive, as Sigismund is of the Crusader Host.</p>

<p> </p>

<p><strong>Grey Knight Purifier</strong>, if you wish to write something up, feel free to do so. ShasVa gets final say on what is added in, so I can't make any promises, but I doubt anyone would be less than thrilled by the prospect of someone getting so involved.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>As for your questions, this is a summarized version of what we have (and some new bits as they come to me, to try and tie things together) on the fall of the Fists:</p>

<p>Following Ullanor, the Emperor retreats to Terra, decreeing that the Imperial Fists shall accompany him.</p>

<p>The Imperial Fists fortify and armor the Imperial Palace, creating an impenetrable fortress.</p>

<p>News of the Heresy begins to spread, and Dorn dispatches portions of his Legion to answer the call for retribution (think the Crimson Fist short story). </p>

<p>News of an Inwit rebellion reaches Dorn. Having sent out Legionnaires already, he has none to spare. Though warned of dangers by the Emperor, Dorn is undeterred.</p>

<p>The Iron Warriors are called to Terra, relieving the Imperial Fists upon the walls.</p>

<p>The Imperial Fists find their Primarch's former Empire utterly controlled by fanatical religious zealots, preaching the end of the galaxy.</p>

<p>Though a tough fight, the Imperial Fists eventually reach the Palace of the corrupted Imperial Governor.</p>

<p>There, the rebellion is revealed to be a trap by the Ruinous Powers. Though the living who man the walls fall easily to the Imperial Fists, it is from the dead that the true dangers lie. </p>

<p>Rogal Dorn battles his way to the traitor in his Throne Room. When he reaches it, he will have realized that this place had claimed the lives of his Legion. If they win, and leave Inwit, it will only be with the smallest fraction of the whole. </p>

<p>The Imperial Governor is infected with the Destroyer Hive. Unlike with the canon Typhus, Nurgle doesn't gift this disease to be under his follower's control. It has its own daemonic intelligence and is in fact the one in control. </p>

<p>As Dorn fights the Imperial Governor, the Destroyer Hive attempts to claim the Primarch.</p>

<p>Dorn's resolve, determination, desperation and superhuman effort combined allow him to not only defeat, but kill the Destroyer Hive, but with a terrible price.</p>

<p>The disease that was the Hive remains, but as the war for control over Dorn was fought within his own mind, when Dorn won his mind was detached from his body and adrift in the Hive.</p>

<p>Eventually, Dorn manages to dominate and control the Destroyer Hive, creating an amalgamation that is not just one, or the other, but both. The Dornian Hive is born.</p>

<p>With his sons lying dead, their bodies riddled with the Hive that is now himself, he ushers life back into them.</p>

<p>Though no overt declaration for Nurgle is made, the pact is sealed nonetheless.</p>

<p>When the Imperial Fists leave Inwit, they belong to Nurgle.</p>

<p>Sigismund and his First Company were present with Dorn, fighting alongside him and dying at his side. They are the first to rise.</p>

<p>Sigismund was the very last to die, succumbing just as Dorn attempts to resuscitate his Legion. Though he is reanimated along with his brother's, this distinction sets him apart. The influence of the Dornian Hive isn't as strong within him as it is with the others.</p>

<p>With their heresy apparent, Dorn declares for Guilliman. Sigismund is tasked with going to his side, taking with him his First Company</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Years later, following the Heresy and the Iron Hands' fall, the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands get into a war within the Eye of Terror.</p>

<p>Iron Hand ferromancy destabilizes the Dornian Hive, causing Sigismund and his men to be permanently detached. </p>

<p>Sigismund rises to take the mantle of the focus of the dismembered Hive, reproducing the Dornian Hive in a unique manner.</p>

<p>The Crusader Host's collective is weaker than the Dornian Hive, however members of the Crusader Host show more individualism.</p>

<p>Sigismund and his men go on to become the Crusader Host, a faction almost as large and powerful as Dorn's remaining Imperial Fists.</p>

<p>Other factions of the Imperial Fists splinter off, primarily those not present with the Legion at Inwit, who had found themselves outsiders within their own Legion though no less dedicated to Nurgle.</p>

 

Edit: I have no idea where all this coding stuff came from . . .

Edited March 11, 2013 by Cormac Airt

[Grey Knight Purifier]

Hmm, I could definitely work with Siggy as a tragic figure. Is the Crusader Host fully Nurgle, or are they more of an independent Warband?

[Olis]

Hmm, I could definitely work with Siggy as a tragic figure. Is the Crusader Host fully Nurgle, or are they more of an independent Warband?

 

They're definitely with Nurgle. Think something along the lines of Ahriman and his affiliation with Tzeentch. Even though he operates separately to Magnus and the rest of the Thousand Sons, he's still a Thousand Son and still beholden to the Changer of Ways.

 

As a warband, the Crusader Host doesn't have the same relationship with Dorn any more like the main Imperial Fist group does. It's just that the Crusader Host, while not 100% independent from Dorn or the Imperial Fists as a fighting force and still nominally the same entity, fights not at Dorn's behest but at his request. Sigismund, for all intents and purposes, is an independent warlord (that's dedicated to Papa Nurgle). 

[Grey Knight Purifier]

Gotcha. The 1kson comparison makes sense. I'll get something written, and PM it to you, Olisredan?

[Olis]

Sure. When you do that, invite Cormac to the conversation, too. :)

[Conn Eremon]

The Ahriman comparison was spot on with what I've been thinking of about Sigismund lately. I'd like him to be ill-favored by Dorn and penitent about it. What we saw in the Crimson Fist really shed a lot of light into how Sigismund becomes the founder of the Black Templars and they did it by providing a point of contention between him and Lord Dorn. Keeping that not only provides a reason why the Imperial Fists will have to respond by sending their Terran forces to Inwit, because all other forces are already engaged elsewhere, but it gives the early Dornian Hive some friction as it matures as well as providing some light onto why Sigismund and his Crusader Host are the ones so detached and removed when the Iron Hands finally cut them off. As well as explain why the Crusader Host has its own agenda, the Crusades to retake Inwit from the Imperium, as a penitent crusade to earn back Dorn's favor. Though the Crusader Host comes when the Dornian Hive calls all undead sons to it, they are their own Warband. No different than the many other warbands of the Omega Legion, who go to the banners of the High Lords whenever they call. The Crusader Host can no longer be a part of the whole, but they are a subservient ally in memory of when they once were.

 

Last night I was looking over some of the work I've put into my own DIY's and I decided to have a little fun and write up something short and sweet about those who would be traitors in the Guilliman Heresy:

 

The Red Walkers, a Blood Angels Warband, revel in their superiority over the masses as they reap their most skilled, their most powerful. However, as young blood rises through the ranks, their deepest held beliefs are about to be shaken.

 

Though the Red Walkers may doubt their place in the galaxy, the Dark Angels released from Warpstorm Knightfall feel no such hesitation. These traitorous followers of the Lion, the self-styled Savior Kings, strike hard and fast in an ever-growing expansion of bloodshed. Though initiative is on their side, how can they hope to survive against the full might of the Imperium, once it arrives?

 

Though the fate of the Angels released from Knightfall may be questioned, the Imperial Fists who herald the Draconian Outbreak can not be. It is a plague that infests the mind as well as the body, destroying all notions of loyalty and replacing it with increased ambition and aggression, inciting dozens of wars of secession. As it spreads, what weapon can the Imperium bring to bear?

 

Though the Imperial Fists may appreciate their anarchy, the powerful ferromancers of the Iron Hands' Ferrux Clan prefer instead machine-like order as they move to take one of the Imperium's outlying Sectors into their vice-like grip. What plans could these convoluted traitors be conniving in far-flung stars?

 

Though the Ferrux Clan may set their sights so low, the Chaos Lord of the Warmongers, a Chapter of the Omega Legion, sets his sight high. Feeling the onset of madness following his interring into a Dreadnought frame, he risks his warband in a high-risk raid upon an Imperial science facility. Success could grant him not just his health back but a place among the High Lords.

 

Though the Warmongers focus on the future, the Tempest Kings of the Salamanders focus only upon the here and now. As they approach an unprepared system, the Imperial citizens will wish they paid more attention to the long ago executed mad prophet's riddle about the 'Dancers in the Rain.'

 

Though the Tempest Kings may cherish most the thunder of war, the Raiders of Misat, a powerful White Scar Khan, cherish riches alone. As the millennia go by, they heap such great stores of treasure that even a Blood God could know envy.

 

Maybe tonight I'll put some work into those who would be loyalists, if I'm not too busy watching old series DVD's and using the Song of Ice and Fire RPG's house creation rules to fluff out my Dark Angel DIY Chapter, the Knights of Sovereignty. :p

[Grey Knight Purifier]

Just a brief point of interest here, regarding canon!Sigismund. Black Templar subforum opinion currently says that it's likely that we will be getting a Sigismund centered HH book, which will redeem him in Dorn's eyes.

[Olis]

Well, we're following (I know I am and I believe Cormac is) the HH series closely enough to pick up on details and new revelations so that we can make our version of the Heresy that much more 'authentic'. A book regarding Sigismund (and even the Fists in general) would be very much welcome. :)

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, Olisredan has the right of it. I am an avid follower of the series, reading primarily for enjoyment. Anything I can pick up on that can aid the Guilliman Heresy I bring up. Likewise, anything someone else does may be brought up as well. If a Sigismund-centered book is in the works, then expect that the GH Sigismund and Imperial Fists may undergo some shifts, the extensiveness of which will depend upon the information gleaned from the book. That's the primary reason why a lot of the stuff is still evolving, still being fleshed out, over a year after its inception. Because the Horus Heresy series is ongoing and we are utilizing it as a significant source of material. It's telling us the facts of the canon Heresy, letting us and our imaginations get a better grasp on how things might have changed. Though certain things have been set in stone, the Guilliman Heresy is still a very fluid project and likely will be for some time. Either when those of us working on the pieces finally finish all of them or until the wealth of information that is the HH series dries up, whichever comes first. And the rate things are going (I'm looking at you, two-drafts-behind Olisredan. And myself, for hitting a Great Crusade-sized mental wall with the Night Lords), even odds on which one does.

 

Speaking of my Night Lords problems, does anyone have any ideas on what we can have the Night Lords do during the Great Crusade and opening parts of the Heresy? I got the backstory, the endgame, and most of the other parts filled out (though they need to be tweaked because I think I repeated myself a bit too much when areas overlapped), but there's a giant gaping hole from the finding of Kurze to his death, filled in with nothing more than their failed attempt to institutionalize an Imperial law-keeping force and slow transition into a garrisoning Legion following said failure.

 

If anyone has some insights or flashes of inspiration, please share.