The Guilliman Heresy

[Wulfkry]

I think the ships still can be as large if not bigger than canon.  Just because you can miniaturize technology does not mean your ships will get smaller.  Look at modern US aircraft carriers.  Technology has progressed and they are bigger with A LOT more toys and capabilities.  For example instead of a single barrel nova cannon maybe a multiple barrel gatling nova cannon?  Lance technology would be miniaturized and become more powerful (thinking maybe star trek like phaser technology)  Designs of ships may be come sleeker or even more brutal but not as gothic cathedrally.  I think much of what attracts people to the ships of 40k is their sheer size.   The imperium of the GH is not in a bad a shape the canon imperium since their is still room for technological growth and the imperial truth.  So to me at least the ships would get bigger more advanced with more capabilities and be more maneuverable.  Just my 2 cents.

[Conn Eremon]

I do get what you're saying, and I don't think we should deviate too far from what people expect of 40k.

 

Perhaps, though, the miniaturization of weaponry means that vessel size isn't as important? Carriers might retain their size for the sake of their cargoes, but others? Plus, with this technology spreading to enemy factions, maybe there becomes a need for smaller sizes. Less of a target.

[Olis]

Why would our Imperium steer clear of large constricts? I like the idea of our ships being small, but fierce, but why?

 

Well, one of the hallmarks of technological advancement is miniaturization. I'm not saying that we ditch big ships, it's just that, given the setting having a higher tech base than regular 40k, "dreadnoughts" (shipwise) seem a sensible addition. Cruiser sized heavy hitters, I think is what I'm going for. I think.

[Wulfkry]

Perhaps the old ships still exists as potent symbols of imperial might and the great crusade, but the new classes of ships are "smaller" with less and less of the massive ships being produced.  The loyal legions should definitely have a few massive ships.  Or a color piece could be created where amongst the Technocracy some ship builders would create massive ships as the zenith of their life's work, creativity and a "Look what i can do!!" to his fellow technocrats.

[Conn Eremon]

I always thought miniaturization was less a hallmark of technological advancement and more a symbol of how influential cultural trends can be to technological advancement, but eh. Unimportant.

 

I can get down with it. We can show the Imperium's colossus by quantity. Fleets of smaller vessels so vast that it doesn't matter the sizes of the individual ships. Canon Imperial ships are the behemoth vessels plying through unruly seas. GH Imperial ships are that raging sea, so vast in number are they. They're the wolves, lean and lethal, that together can take down prey many times their size again and again. Sure, the Scars have the tried and true mastodon vessels, capable of charging through any foe and come out on top. But the Imperials don't need to meet their foes head on. No, they bait their enemy, force them to face one, then another and then another, expending priceless ammunition firing at their darting forms as they pour fire, no less devastating than their enemy's, into their prey's unprotected flanks. Certainly, the Eldar can surpass the Imperials in this form of void warfare, the Orks and their Space Hulks and asteroid vessels can prove to the wolves that prey can fight back, the Tyranids could adapt to them as easily as anything else, the Tau are far more advanced and richer in resources than their canon counterparts already and have an even bigger buffer zone with the rest of the Imperium, the Scars can strike from unknown vectors and retreat to places no sane Imperial could follow and the forces of Chaos, scavengers as they are, are quite capable of going toe to toe with the Imperials. So this won't unduly project the Imperials into being untouchable. They can still be hurt, can still lose. But they're more than what they could have been, had the Emperor been gone and the Mechanicum remained.  

 

I don't see Astartes vessels following that path, though. They're whole point is being powerful in their bulkiness. I think we should keep some super-heavies going, like the few Baneblades surrounded by Leman Russes, and these could be the Astartes vessels, the Strike Cruisers and Battle-barges. After all, there will continue to be no distinction between the Army and the Legions. The Legions will remain nominally in command, though by sheer weight of numbers there'll be far more independent Army Fleets out there than cooperative ones. They'd be alpha male wolves. Ironic that I'm using so many wolf-related terminology when the Space Wolves, alongside the Thousand Sons, are the Legions to be the least involved with Void Warfare in the first place. Granted, War Hounds but it's not the same thing.

 

Speaking of which, having read Betrayer, I love our War Hounds even more. Why is it that every time A D-B or Dan Abnett writes a book I get a new favorite Legion?

[Conn Eremon]

It's been over a week, so just to post an update I am currently working on figuring out the Legion command structures. It was the Iron Warriors that first got me thinking of it, with the Iron Circle and the Triarchs of the Trident. I'll be looking at all 18 Legions.

 

One thing I've started considering is rethinking the triumvirate of the Sons of Horus. Maybe they do replace Abaddon and return to the full four Mournival. I'm no longer certain they'd leave an empty space for a traitor, as that's usually seen as a tribute to fallen heroes. And since they are using the Legion Commander role in that respect, never replacing Horus, they wouldn't do the same for Abaddon.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Cormac Airt

[Conn Eremon]

Forgive the triple post, but notes time!

 

Soon, during the aftermath of the Heresy, the Raptor Cult had its first beginnings among the Blood Angels, though it has since grown beyond a single Legion. These were the elite of the aerial assault Legionnaires. Oooh, Azkaellon's Sanguinary Guard could be the equivalent of the Raptor Cult. Incredibly elite warriors clad in gold and ever on the hunt. Though the Sanguinary Guard forms the core of the original warriors, there are splinter cults within the Omega Legion and Dark Angels

 

+++ --- +++ --- +++ --- +++

 

Legion Command, such as it were:

 

Dark Angels (Loyalists) - Legion Commander has control of the remnants of the loyalists, with the heads of the various Chapters forming the Inner Circle. Becoming a Chapter Master and joining the Inner Circle requires one of two events: A Chapter Master's death requiring someone to inherit the role, or the removal of a traitor Chapter's threat (by any means). Each Traitor Chapter number is removed from the loyalist Legion until their threats are removed. When that happens, a new Chapter is forged with its number, having been purified. The Dark Angels have purified over 30 Chapters, but far more remain sullied. The most recent formation of a purified Chapter is the 3rd Chapter, who had been a threat to the Imperium for over a millennia before they were wiped out by an Ork WAAAGH!

 

Dark Angels (Traitors) - No unified Legion command. Each Traitor Chapter is segregated upon their own worlds, kept apart from the Imperium by powerful Warpstorms. When these storms dissipate, they are often alone. However, there are times where multiple Traitor Chapters of the Dark Angels are active at one time. During those times, a single commander takes over, usually by killing his competitors.

 

Emperor's Children - Highest ranking officers are Lord Commanders, though one among them may be chosen for temporary Legion Command.

 

Iron Warriors - Led by the Triarchs, members of the Trident, the greatest Warsmiths of the Legion of their times. The Iron Circle is mostly broken, having been corrupted and destroyed at Inwit alongside their Primarch. Each Triarch is accompanied by a pair of battle robots, the surivors.

 

White Scars - There are a great many Khans among the Khanate. Though the Khans are the epitome of power, there are intricate webs of heirarchy among them. Though a White Scar may carry the title of Khan, and command his own Brotherhood of Legionnaires, he may also be subordinate to a more powerful Khan. This fluctuates on a constant basis, with the Khans rising and falling in power persistently. Only recently has a Khan gained enough power to claim the whole of the Legion as subordinate to him, the first Great Khan since Jaghatai.

 

Space Wolves - The Wolf Lords operate much as they did under Russ. Though there is a Great Wolf, a Legion Commander, the Wolf Lords have complete control of their Great Companies and are mostly autonomous.

 

Imperial Fists - Absolute authority rests with Rogal Dorn, with the sole exception being Sigismund, who commands an equal sense of authority on a smaller scale. Though various warbands exist of the Imperial Fists, all operate under the distant commands of these two individuals, being splinterings of their greater wholes.

 

Night Lords - Commanded by a Legion Commander, who himself follows the prophetic whisperings of the Oracles. As the nature and demeanour of the Night Lords varies Marine to Marine, which subset the Legion Commander hails from directly influences the behavior and portrayal of the over-all Legion, contributing to their ever-changing state.

 

Blood Angels - No true Legion Command. Only the strongest can survive leadership of such a Legion, and they operate very independently.

 

Iron Hands - Though each of the Clans seems to operate independently from an outsider point of view, everything done had been carefully planned by Gabriel Santar and the Omniscience, a powerful artificial sentience created by the combined intelligences of the Legion Technopaths.

 

War Hounds - Each Grand Company follows closely the orders and directives of the Imperial Fleets they accompany, though there is a Legion Commander. The Leader/Equerry dynamic is widespread throughout the Legion.

 

Omega Legion - The Omega Legion has the largest number of commanders of any other Legion save, perhaps, the White Scars. The most powerful of Omega Legion Lords are capable of commanding the hosts of lesser commanders and are the High Lords of the Legion.

 

Dusk Raiders - The Dusk Raiders follow the rule of seven as set by their Primarch. There are seven Grand Companies, with the first, second and seventh in ascendancy over the others, led first and foremost by the Legion Commander.

 

Thousand Sons - The dividing of talents throughout various Companies have over time degraded. By the 41st Millennium, all who share a particular psyker talent are gathered into their own particular Company, such as the Corvidae Company. The Captains form the Council of Sages. Only the Legion's sole Heirarch ever took the mantle of Legion Commander after Magnus and was also the only Thousand Son to master multiple arts as their Primarch had once done.

 

Sons of Horus - Led by the Mournival, the Sons of Horus have never raised one among them to the rank of Legion Commander since their Warmaster fell, even when the Legion came to be led by the Heirarchs. The Mournival speaks with four voices, but are ever of one mind.

 

Imperial Heralds - The Chapters of the Imperial Heralds are stationed at varying locations across the Imperium, looking after the moral integrity of the citizens and on watch for any outbreaks of the Warp. As the Legion is a reactionary force, there higher command structures focus mostly upon the recruitment and logistic sides of things, allowing their Chapters total autonomy.

 

Salamanders - All too easily the Salamanders splinter under warlords promising untold pleasures, however the Great Serpent-Drake, Vulkan, can still easily entice the disparate Salamander hosts together whenever he beckons.

 

Raven Guard - The Raven Guard is, quite simply, immense. Though there is a centralized command structure, its primary tasks isn't all that different from the Imperial Heralds and looks more towards the grand sweep of affairs rather than directly leading each warhost. The veteran and highest commanders remain stationed out of Deliverance, though the rest of the Legion makes use of hundreds of secondary homeworlds. The Raven Guard operates fairly independently, having only been directly led by a singular Legion Commander when the Heirarchs rose to power.

 

Alpha Legion - The Alpha Legion is, as ever, a mystery. Though fragmented into any number of varyingly sized cells, working cooperatively or independently in equal measure and at times even in contention with each other, there is no sign that anyone, whether outside of the Legion or not, has over-all command. Some would say it would be impossible, for only a Primarch could keep track of the impossibly complicated network of plots and intrigues, and there are none still living.

 

+++ --- +++ --- +++ --- +++

 

The Champions of Chaos

 

- Amit Fleshtearer

True bestiality, Amit wades into battle without weapons or armor but for those biological boons granted unto him by Khorne's favor. With ceramite skin and adamantium claws, the Flesh Tearer exists in a perpetual state of bloodshed. His never-ending stream of faithful followers sacrifice themselves to him during the rare moments between battles so that the flow of blood and skulls never ceases, for Khorne's favor can be a fleeting thing.

 

- Sigismund the Black Teplar

When the Imperial Fist's First Company was torn forever from the comforting presence of the Dornian Hive, it was Sigismund who rose to take its place, reforming it around him as its center and focus. Though a pale copy of the amalgamation of the Destroyer Hive and their Primarch Rogal Dorn, Sigismund's Crusader Host is a powerful, invasive force in the galaxy, preferring the more direct, violent applications of Nurgle's gifts than the slower implacability of the Dornian Hive.

 

- Varrun the Mute

Former member of the Firedrakes, Varrun's excesses were so extreme that he was forced from the illustrious order out of jealousy and spite. Though his eyes are forever alight with the pyromania common to his brothers, Varrun utters never a word, immolating all around him in utter silence as a stark contrast to the ever-present screams. Though many Salamanders enjoy the burning touch of the flames, dancing ever closer to total self-immolation and a true death, Varrun had inured himself to such pleasures and no longer seems to notice the flames forever raging around him. It is the burning of others that Varrun lives for, though none can ever truly know for sure. Fire is all that Varrun can see and he longs to grant such a vision to the rest of the galaxy.

 

- Uhh, some Iron Hand dude

I'm thinking a former Technopath. I'd thought of the idea of an artificial intelligence spanning the bodies of a certain group of Iron Hands. Not a Hive Mind like the Tyranids or the Imperial Fists, but an artificial intelligence that operates and controls the bodies of certain Iron Hands like automatons, themselves otherwise blank and empty of life. So how could there be a former Technopath? Rogue program. Someone who knows more about these things can describe it better, but what about a specific Iron Hand whose mechanical functions became the wastebasket of junk code? And this junk code coalesced and formed its own individuality, based off of the faulty data of the poorly erased sentience of the original Marine. It'd be incomplete, interconnected improperly, etc. and yet remain a distinctive individual. I'm thinking a Tzeentchian Rain Man. Its all-powerful number-crunching calculator mind can navigate the infinite routes of possibility mathematically from any given start point. The Marine is ephemeral, coming and going at will and without word. Though his actions are eclectic, small and unimportant to incredible but unrelated, everything he does is to tweak the possible futures down a single path that only he can discern. What his true goals are is unknown and he has gained the enmity and gratitude of every faction in the galaxy for he is as likely to operate against the plans of his own Legion than to aid.

 

The champions I like, the rest is meh.

[marine7312000]

I'm really liking how much thought you are putting into this. I'm going back through to see if I can find anything that strikes me as odd.

[Conn Eremon]

Hey, thanks for the compliment. We'd be glad to hear whatever thoughts you may have.

[Conn Eremon]

Yeesh, with Olisredan momentarily out of action, I'm really starting to feel like I'm talking to myself here. Anywho, some recent musings of mine follow.

 

Betrayer got me thinking, when do the Traitor Primarcha ascend? We know Gabriel Santar's ascension caps the Mars-Terra conflict and that the Lion and Guilliman don't. That leaves us with three.

 

Sanguinius exhibits signs of Daemonhood prior to ascending, for some time. To keep that feel, I'd say his ascension is a drawn out affair. Its not a simple shift like we saw with Angron and Fulgrim, its small changes accumulating so slowly that no changes are perceived. One day people will notice that at some point he ascended, no one the wiser on when.

 

Dorn . . . He is tough. When he "beats" the plague infesting him and becomes the Dornian Hive, is that an ascension? Or something else. I'm inclined to say something else. He became a Daemon, sure, but the ascension to Daemon Prince status is later. Perhaps when he kills Perturabo.

 

Vulkan I think can be easy, and relatively early. Namn. Think about it, a whole world burns, the gene-seed of nearly an entire Legion sacrificed in flames. The failure to appropriately sacrifice Corax himself can be reminiscent of canon Fulgrim and Perturabo. Vulkan can be the first to ascend.

 

I said the Lion and Guilliman don't ascend for two reasons. One, they're Warmasters and Chaos Champions. All canon examples of which have not ascended. Second, their Legions are both attempting to revive their Primarchs. Unnecessary if they can just let him die, since he'll just go back to the Warp to be summoned once more.

 

Speaking of Champions, I like the idea of Luciusing up Sigismund. If you kill Sigismund, one of his allied Champions will undergo rampant mutations and become Sigismund. When the Crusader Host loses its avatar, it remakes one of its infected into the avatar, being Sigismund.

[Wulfkry]

Would Dorn really even need to ascend at all?  I mean he has become the Dornian hive that seems to be just as powerful or more powerful infact than a daemon primach since he is essentially a Tyranid fleet by himself.(or am i misunderstanding the Hive concept)

 

The Sigismund idea is cool.  Maybe give him the moniker of the Eternal Plague or Eternal Pestilence. 

[Conn Eremon]

Slight misrepresentation, but not altogether wrong. It'll probably always be Tyranid-like just by virtue of it being a Hive Mind, but we want to differentiate the two as much as possible. We don't want the GH Imperial Fists to be Nurglenids in power armor. First difference will be the manner in which the Hive Mind affects the others. With the Tyranids, it's very direct. The lesser creatures are all but controlled like puppets. They freak out and return to their baser instincts whenever they disconnect. Dorn won't be like that. It's sort of like . . . Every Imperial Fist infested with the Dornian Hive has been brought back to a state of unlife by Dorn's newfound power. And they all have the essence of Dorn within them. Which, by the way, really ties into the whole Papa Nurgle thing, the almost endearing and caring relationships Nurgle's followers enjoy. Dorn is with them. He's a part of them, and they are a part of him. Each and every Imperial Fist that survived the Horus Heresy and remained with Dorn has full sentience and self-awareness. But they all contain within themselves the sense of their Primarch. They know what he feels, when he feels it. They get a gist of his thoughts based off of this sense. And through that relationship, everyone else with Dorn's essence. It's like an unblockable, highly intricate, non-vocal based and by those virtues extremely effective communication network. They follow Dorn's orders not because he is the Hive Mind and they are automaton followers but because he is their lord, their commander, their father. His wishes are to be obeyed. And they all have a very close relationship with Dorn through this. And it works the other way around. Dorn has an intimate connection with his sons. And it works sideways. By their shared connection with Dorn, the Imperial Fists are able to sense each other, though to a lesser extent than with Dorn. Imagine calling your father up and he puts you on speakerphone because he's got your brother on a different phone, who he also puts on speakerphone. Your connection is to your father, but you are able to interact with your brother indirectly. That's how I imagine the Imperial Fists are able to sense each other, though after millennia of experiencing this connection you get a very creepy force, which Olisredan showed us somewhere in this thread. 

 

Now, as to your actual point, you are right. This Dornian Hive thing that happens when the Fists fall doesn't need to ascend to Daemonhood in the same sense as the others do. He's already on equal terms, in a sense. However, we've also put forward that the Dornian Hive is, at that point, in its infancy. Really, the Dornian Hive is a newborn entity that happens to have Rogal Dorn's memories and sense of identity. I set that forward as a possible explanation as to why Sigismund's veterans were able to splinter off when such a similar occurrence never happens. Because at this time the Dornian Hive hasn't fully explored its capabilities yet. Its an immature entity and this inexperience allows for the split. When the Dornian Hive becomes advanced enough to prevent such a thing from happening again, it is too late for Sigismund to be brought back into the fold. His own entity has grown to maturity as well. Though it started as a splintering of the original, it is now its own distinctive self separate from its parent.

 

So we do have the opportunity to have Dorn progress in strength and reach a peak. We can use an ascension to explain it or we can try something else. Really, it doesn't have to have an ascension to work because Dorn is something else entirely. It would be nice to have something though, so that we can use it as a divide between Dorn was after Inwit and what Dorn fully becomes following the Heresy.

 

I think the Eternal Crusader could work just fine. It sounds rather Imperial, but it also sounds very Sigismund. But I don't know. We could play around with it, come up with some ideas. Or leave him as the Black Templar, which I'm still an advocate for. 

 

That gave me another idea, though. I kind of like the idea of giving him a ship that plays off of Pax Imperialis. Pox Aeterna. 

 

Also, an idea for a sidebar fluff piece that'd cool: An Imperial Fist Marine being killed by something he doesn't understand, slowly enough for him to realize that he truly is dying and that there is nothing he can do to stop it, knowing it's coming the very next mome-- And then he awakes, choking and gasping for air, a dim awareness of indescribable agony and depthless insanity and a vague sensation of being grabbed and pulled away by something that felt like his lord but wasn't. Though that awareness fades to nothing as quickly as it appears, that vague sensation only grows.

 

I think we need to do some work on how to differentiate between the two Nurgle forces. Personally, I like the idea that the Dornian Hive represents the more patient side of Nurgle. The slow decay of all things. His is the long view, the slow build up to something so colossal, so monumental, that nothing can stand its way. And by slow build up, I mean ten thousand years of slow build up. Sigismund and his Crusader Host, on the other hand, represent the more rapid attentions of Nurgle. His is the virulence that appears explosively and is violently infectious. Put another way, the Imperial Fists are the virus that slowly infests an entire world's population, quietly and discretely, that undergoes a mutation turning it lethal almost over night. A world dies. The Crusader Host is the Life-Eater Virus. It hits and it devours all almost immediately. Both has its drawbacks. The Imperial Fists take time and a canny observer may notice something is wrong and work to counteract it. The Crusader Host can work too fast and violently for its own good, burning itself out before it reaches the target death rate. But I like it this way. It lets the Imperial Fists be an intensely major threat to the Imperium while having the Crusader Host operate exactly as its name suggests.

[Conn Eremon]

It's been a couple weeks since I last posted, so I though I should put up an update.

 

First of all, Olisredan is currently unreachable. Last I heard, he was having computer problems and his posting had trickled down quite a bit. I'm assuming the abrupt stop about a month ago is related to that. I have no idea how long his absence will be.

 

In the meantime, with my partner AWOL, I'm going to focus instead on my own personal pet project. The Twenty Articles Project where I post and develop my own personal DIY successor chapters and warbands for each Legion. It's something I have been wanting to do and Olisredan's current MIA status gives me the time.

 

This doesn't mean I am taking a break, however. It just means that my pace will be slowed to accommodate the additional project. I am at the moment doing two things for the Guilliman Heresy. I'm trawling the thread for all info on the Salamanders, the next Guilliman Heresy IA on my to do list, as well as developing something to happen in the early centuries of the 41st Millennium, a Heirarch Heresy of sorts. I hadn't posted the accumulated information on the Night Lords yet because I was hoping Olisredan could use his moderator powers to slip it into the old, locked thread and save up room for this one. All things considered, I am just going to post them here. When Olisredan returns, we can discuss moving it.

 

To be clear, I will not move on without him. At max, I have the Salamanders' draft to write up and an introduction to the Guilliman Heresy that will be included in the finished pieces. I will be asking certain people outside of the project to review what I have done and help me in making a good, finished product, as already discussed between him and I. If Olisredan has still not returned by then (and I'm sure he will as that will take quite some time!) then I may decide to post my finished IAs on a schedule. That is the limit of what I will do on my own, though if that time comes and I have received no word from him I can re-evaluate what will come of the Guilliman Heresy.

 

Whatever the case may be, I will do my best to see the Guilliman Heresy reach its full conclusion. So if there is anyone still interested in this project, feel free to keep the conversations going. I'm still here, at the very least.

[Conn Eremon]

Just realized I'd forgotten to update the bottom portion to include the up to date fluff we've gone into after October of last year. Ah well, all the information is there up to March, so it's not that big a deal. I'll edit it in at some point when I have more time.

 

 

 

Legio Astartes: Night Lords

 

Trimmed from the Guilliman Heresy thread up to Post #106, Page 5, Thread 2

By searching for the key terms: “Night,” “Lord,” “Nostramo,” “Konrad,” “Curze,” “Conrad,” “Kurze,” “Haunt,” “Arbites,” “enforcer,”

 

 

The Guilliman Heresy, Thread 1

Night Lords

- Konrad stays loyal, and never issued Exterminatus on his homeworld.

- With assistance from Horus, Konrad is able to restore order to Nostramo.

- After the Heresy, Nostramo comes under attack from the Raven Guard, and Konrad engages Corax, but is killed. However his death spurned his legion on to victory, driving the Raven Guard from their planet.

- The Night Lords still retain their use of terror tactics.

- The legion strongly believes in the protection of humanity and the annihilation of Chaos and those who consort with them.

[shasVa 1/9/12 Post #1, Page 1]

 

During the duel however, an unforeseen event transpired - reinforcements for the loyalists had arrived in the form of the Word Bearers, Thousand Sons and Night Lords, as well as several Imperial Army regiments still loyal to the Emperor. Desperate to secure his victory, Guilliman stormed into the Imperial Palace itself, and from there into the Throne Room, where he encountered his father - the Emperor of Humanity. The final battle of the Guilliman Heresy was about to begin!

[shasVa 2/12/12 Post #39, Page 2]

 

The following legions remain loyal; […] Night Lords[…]. The following loyal Primarchs are dead by M41; […] Konrad Curze (killed by Corax) […].

[shasVa 2/29/12 Post #51, Page 3]

 

Night Lords - "trauma" power armour

[Olisredan 04/15/12 Post #110, Page 5]

 

I was thinking that Ferrus Manus could turn to Tzeentch (magic plus technology is a dangerous mix) in place of Corax, who could now bond with Konrad Curze, and be part of the reinforcements that save Terra from Guilliman's all-out siege.

[shasVa 4/27/12 post #131, Page 6]

 

Earlier today I was thinking about the Night Lords, and how they could be portrayed as good guys. And I remembered how the Night Haunter is commonly referred to as 40k's Batman. Which, as a fan of both, I find rather insulting to Batman. The closest DC or Marvel character Curze comes to is the Punisher. But I was thinking, what if the Night Haunter actually was more like Batman in the Guilliman Heresy? And so my imagination ran with it, and I'll try to put what I can still remember of it into something cohesive. Konrad Curze's pod slams into the outer shell of Nostramo at an extreme angle. Rather than burrowing straight down, his vessel streaks almost horizontally, leaving a massive scar across the surface of the world. Nostramo's negligent peace-keeping forces encircle it as the young Primarch exits the crushed pod. Taken rather unawares, the Chief takes the child in, where he is raised by her. The Primarch's rapid growth and learning are tempered by a greater sense of morality and an unbending core of justice, which influences his adopted mother into reforming the law enforcement agency she commands. For the first time in centuries, petty criminals were brought to task for their deeds, something that didn't go unnoticed by the all-powerful criminal organizations that held the true reigns of power on Nostramo and who remained untouched. What follows is a true Crime War between the criminal and the enforcer. Konrad is held away from the violence by his well-meaning mother, but he doesn't stay away. Seeing the criminal elements winning, Konrad begins disappearing at night. What follows is a reign of terror over the law-breakers, as a mysterious entity begins to take them, one by one. They are not killed, but are instead found in a cell that no law enforcer remembers putting them in. This entity is referred to as the Night Haunter. Feeling that their advantage was slipping, the criminal syndicates try a last-ditch attempt to win the war. They detonate an entire Hive tower, the very tower that Curze's adopted mother and he lives, hoping to cut the head off of their enemy in one fell swoop. The attempt is successful. Though the Chief survives the blast, she is unable to lead. Having worked as something of a protege, and having earned the respect of the enforcers, Curze quickly and readily takes up his adopted mother's mantle. In a public display, he reveals himself as the one called the Night Haunter, though he refuses that name. "Haunt the nights I have, but I am no Night Haunter. My name is Konrad Curze, and what I am is far more of a threat to you and yours than anything you could ever fear." From this point forward, whatever reservations Curze had to killing his enemies was gone. His inner core of justice burned just as bright as before, but maturity and experience has shown him that in order to best serve that justice he must utterly remove those who could never be rehabilitated to it. From henceforth, the crime wars became much more one-sided. With Curze now demanding blood rather than just compliance, the criminal ringleaders found that whatever tactic they could utilize, whatever path they take, nothing could stop him. One by one, cabal by cabal, the criminal overlords of Nostramo were torn down from their loft and cast aside. With the world in such dire need of guidance and leadership, having ripped away the corruption that was once in its place, Konrad Curze refuses the offer to become a global leader. He declares himself High Enforcer, leader of the militant law providers, and vows to keep watch over the world as its populace chooses for itself who will rule them. It is in this state that the Emperor finds Nostramo and his wayward son. Unified with his Legion, enlightened to his true purpose, Konrad Curze directs his burning justice onto the galaxy at large. He and his Night Lords, so named for they rule the cold harshness of space, and from it they bring the light of the Emperor's justice. At home, on Nostramo, the criminal elements still left breathe a sigh of relief, and maneuver themselves to take back their world. But not everyone was content to put up with it anymore. Many, in fact, looked to Curze as inspiration. Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of people, all across Nostramo, took to the night. Many were alone, others went in pairs. A rare few organized themselves into gang-like groups. All slipped away into the night, and showed the criminal elements left that in the darkness there was still something they should fear. Organized crime will always be Nostramo's greatest problem, but for every villain to terrorize the populace there is a civilian who champions Curze's ideals.  So, that's basically it. Turn the Night Haunter/Konrad Curze into just Konrad Curze. Not an evil thing in the dark, but a man who can never turn his back on his ideals. Turn a world that reverts back into criminal debauchery into a Marvel/DC universe with its villains and its heroes, just minus the uniforms and superpowers. I gave Konrad a mother for two reasons. One: I felt that providing him with a living connection to Nostramo's society would lead to a more noble Curze, as he doesn't spend his youth as a feral beast in the underhive, and Two: I thought that a mother's love especially would better aid him in dealing with his nascent psychic visions and the visions that haunt him. Though now that I think of it, I can't think of a single other Primarch with a mother. They only ever had adopted fathers. So I think it'd be great just for that purpose too. As for how he deals with his Legion, and its own criminal elements, I'm unsure of. On one hand, we could just say that there never was any. On the other, we could say that instead of Curze accepting this fact and falling further into his Night Haunter persona, he willingly and utterly purges the corruption from his Legion. I suppose the way I would go about it is to have there still be a criminal element. Perhaps the Legion recruits from two sources: the vigilantes and the rehabilitated criminals. When certain of the criminals reveal themselves as not very rehabilitated, Curze brands them. Perhaps the crimson fist of Zso Zahaal (or whatever his name was) is how they are marked. From then on, those branded are used in suicidal tactics. If they refuse to live by the Emperor's light, than they can die delivering it, kind of mentality. Otherwise, Curze does give criminals the chance to reform their ways. During the Guilliman Heresy, this organization can bite back at him, as those who refuse to reform declare themselves for Guilliman. The Legion has a minor civil war, nowhere near the same levels as the Dark Angels though. Mostly, the criminals break off and flee. Many are killed, but the bulk gets away. They meet up with Guilliman, declare themselves loyal subjects, and swell his Legion. In other words, the Ultramarines literally grow bigger by taking the Marines of other Legions who swear fealty to Guilliman. This is what makes his Omega Legion so powerful and massive post-Heresy, despite being so heavily outnumbered. Sorry, I started adding multiple ideas into what was meant to be just Curze's origin story. Anyway, I know its long but I hope you guys read it and like it. Of course, I’m just offering up my imagination's ramblings. If you guys like it than we've got one Primarch's story done. If not, or you guys have another idea, let's discuss it. QUICK EDIT: I still think we should keep with him being assassinated. Who sends the assassin I don't know. Probably Guilliman or his allies. But that quote of his in canon Horus Heresy is just too good to get rid of, though we'd obviously have to tweak it a bit. 

[Cormac Airt 5/2/12 Post #164, Page 7]

 

What I was thinking is that the Legion of the Night Lords is 1/2 Enforcers. They'd be the logical primary choice of recruitment, to take the creme of the crop of the Enforcers young enough to handle the process. The remaining half is divided up evenly between those who are rehabilitated criminals who were very good at their crimes and the best of the vigilantes, who consider themselves the true sons of Curze, which Curze himself may or may not agree with. The vigilantes may have taken on personas for themselves reminiscent of Curze's former Night Haunter name, but as Curze rejects that name upon coming out of the darkness, so too do they. After Curze dies however, that practice may begin to disappear, and you'll start having officers in the Legion with oddball names.

[Cormac Airt 5/3/12 Post #166, Page 7]

 

It seems like this legion will focus more on justice than terror tactics, but still, a legion full of vigilantes and (maybe) reformed criminals sounds like terror tactics aren't below them. Which brings me to their style of power armour - I was going to go with 'Trauma' as stated a while back but now as things have evolved I'm not so sure. Perhaps 'Warden', 'Rectitude' or 'Calibre' might fit better? (I'm leaning toward 'Calibre' if we must replace 'Trauma'.)

[Olisredan 5/3/12 Post #167, Page 7]

 

I definitely want the Night Lords to keep their terror tactics, but as you pointed out they may be exclusive to certain Night Lords depending on their lives prior to induction to the Legion. I was actually thinking that much of the Legion would take the place of the Iron Warriors of canon. So if we have the Night Lords, in their role as the enforcers of Imperial law and might, garrison conquered worlds as a sort of pre-Adeptus Arbites force, the Iron Warriors are freed up to continue the Great Crusade. Given that fully half the Night Lords were enforcers before being inducted I don't think it'd be much of a stretch to say that they'd mostly welcome this new role. The vigilantes might take well to it for the same reasons, though they'd prefer to use terror tactics. The criminal elements wouldn't take to it at all, and many of their reformations would fail because of it. They, also, would probably use terror tactics. Given this role, if you and ShasVa okay it, I'd think that the "Warden" armor would fit best. 

[Cormac Airt 5/4/12 Post #168, Page 7]

 

Just a thought, as you have the Primarchs founding the various Adeptus( Adeptuses? Adepti?) maybe have the Nights Lords create the Arbites or some equivalent? 

[slater474 5/5/12 Post #169, Page 7]

 

Having the Adeptus Arbites and the Night Lords work in co-operation is a very good idea. It almost mirrors the relationship between Batman and Gordon (at least in the Bale-lead Batman movies) in a way. So yeah. I'm all for it. Let it be so.

[shasVa 5/5/12 Post #171, Page 7]

 

I'd be up for something like what Shas says - a cooperation. Perhaps having a small group or singular Night Lords spending a period on established (and frontier) Imperial worlds hunting wrong-doers and supporting Arbites before returning to 'active' duty on the frontlines (they are super-soldiers after all) would be good. Also, in regard to 'Warden' armour - I've realised I don't absolutely need to have one armour type per legion. I think the Night Lords having both 'Warden' and 'Trauma' armour marks would be cool. One for the battlefield, one for vigilantism. Whereas the 'Warden' type would be more of a general purpose mark, 'Trauma' type suits could be geared toward lightning assault. "Strike from the skies, brothers!" 

[Olisredan 5/5/12 Post #172, Page 7]

 

Night Lords - "Trauma" power armour (Mk6b) - The main battlefield armour of the Night Lords, 'Trauma' Armour's sleek lines and advanced sensor suite stem from research into the aborted Mk6 suit leading up to and during the Heresy. Created many years after the Guilliman Heresy, Trauma Armour is a significant improvement to the Legion's old Mk5 suits not least because of the time involved in it's development.  I'm also toying with the idea of having some sort of flashbang effect emitted/deployed from the armour. Perhaps they would look like Aerion the Faithful's armour-lights on some of his work. I don't know. The look to the armour itself, in my mind, would be to have the armour sweep back from a central line, with the helmet taing on a look similar to the Canon Mk6 Corvus helms. Night Lords - 'Warden' power armour (Mk4c) - Also created long after the Heresy, 'Warden' Armour descends from the celebrated Mk4 'Maximus' suits. Created for mobility, the armour plating is a little lighter than is antecedent yet it incorporates the exterior cables to protect them from potential harm. Intended for use by units not heading into heavy combat, the 'Warden' Suit will not stand up to the sort of punishment 'Trauma' Armour might but is ideal for evading blows that would strike other suits more directly. Perfect for on foot recon and stalking missions.

[Olisredan 5/8/12 Post #177, Page 8]

 

- Curze is discovered by the chief of a weak law enforcement agency

- Curze rises to dominate Nostramo following a lengthy, brutal war with Nostramo's criminal element

- Curze's upbringing and parentage leads to him abandoning his Night Haunter persona and better enables him to live with his visions

- Leaving Nostramo, the criminals try to rise to power once more, but are mostly thwarted by an empowered law enforcement agency and rampant vigilantism

- The Night Lord Legion is composed of three basic types of people: Enforcers, Vigilantes, and Criminals, with the Enforcers comprising being the majority.

- An addition to this that I've just sort of thought of as a way to keep the internal tension of the Night Lords. The Enforcers view the Vigilantes as brash individuals who only get in the way of them doing a real job and remain suspicious of the Criminals. The Vigilantes see themselves as doing the uptight Enforcers' jobs for them, and are even more suspicious of the Criminals. The Criminals see the Vigilantes as no better than they were and are bitter to the Enforcers for not accepting their attempts at redemption. The intensity of this turmoil varies greatly, with some viewing them as little no more than fake allies to those who view a Marine's origins unimportant upon induction to the Legion, or at best provides them with unique sets of skills that ultimately aid the Legion

 

 

- Night Lord Legion becomes divided among conquered worlds to better enforce the Imperium's laws.

- During the Heresy, the Night Lords and Raven Guard fought together in many battles, both siding with the Emperor.

- Following the Heresy, the Night Lords remain fractured and develop a close working relationship with the newly formed Adeptus Arbites.

- They develop two specialized armor marks highly suited to the Night Lords

- The Warden mark is a Devastator variant with increased stability and target recognition.

- The Trauma mark is an Assault variant with enhanced acceleration to increase momentum and mass upon impact.

[Cormac Airt 5/8/12 Post #178, Page 8]

 

Night Lords - "Trauma" power armour (Mk6b)The main battlefield armour of the Night Lords, 'Trauma' Armour's sleek lines and advanced sensor suite stem from research into the aborted Mk6 suit leading up to and during the Heresy. The aesthetics of the armour itself sweep back from a central line, with the helmet taking on a look similar to the abandoned Mk6 Corvus helmet designs. Housed in dispensible, modular armour attachments on the chest plating are dispensors designed to house modified Photon Flash or Blind emitters (the two most commonly used emitters), to aid them in battle. The first of these attachments designed had a distinct circular appearance to them but as time has worn on different designs have been implemented to make the dispensors less obvious. Created many years after the Guilliman Heresy, Trauma Armour is a significant improvement to the Legion's old Mk5 suits not least because of the time involved in it's development. 

Night Lords - 'Warden' power armour (Mk4c) Also created long after the Heresy, 'Warden' Armour descends from the celebrated Mk4 'Maximus' suits. Created for mobility, the armour plating is a little lighter than is antecedent yet it incorporates the exterior cables to protect them from potential harm. Intended for use by units not heading into heavy combat, the 'Warden' Suit will not stand up to the sort of punishment 'Trauma' Armour might but is ideal for evading blows that would strike other suits more directly. Often used by Night Lords on garrison duty and by scouts, it is perfect for on foot recon and stalking missions. Also the first noted mark of armour that could be worn by unaugmented humans, given the right modifications.

[Olisredan 5/15/12 Post #207, Page 9]

 

Some treat other organizations more or less as equals, others as utterly inferior. The Night Lords and Adeptus Arbites, for instance, have an amiable, equal cooperation.

[Cormac Airt 5/16/12 Post #214, Page 9]

 

Late M31 - Creation of the Adeptus Arbites - Considering the disparate forces of justice throughout the Imperium, Konrad Curze creates a standardised, Imperial judiciary system: The Adeptus Arbites. These men and women follow the letter of the law, as codified by Curze, with utmost determination. Often a Night Lord on hand will oversee and advise operations, perhaps even conducting his own law-giving.

[Olisredan 5/20/2012 Post #233, Page 10]

 

Night Lords - "Warden" power armour (Mk4c) Also created long after the Heresy, 'Warden' Armour descends from the celebrated Mk4 'Maximus' suits. Created for mobility, the armour plating is a little lighter than is antecedent yet it incorporates the exterior cables to protect them from potential harm. Intended for use by units not heading into heavy combat, the 'Warden' Suit will not stand up to the sort of punishment 'Trauma' Armour might but is ideal for evading blows that would strike other suits more directly. Often used by Night Lords on garrison duty and by scouts, it is perfect for on foot recon and stalking missions. Also the first noted mark of armour that could be worn by unaugmented humans, given the right modifications.

Night Lords - "Trauma" power armour (Mk6b) The main battlefield armour of the Night Lords, 'Trauma' Armour's sleek lines and advanced sensor suite stem from research into the aborted Mk6 suit leading up to and during the Heresy. The aesthetics of the armour itself sweep back from a central line, with the helmet taking on a look similar to the abandoned Mk6 Corvus helmet designs. Housed in dispensible, modular armour attachments on the chest plating are dispensors designed to house modified Photon Flash or Blind emitters (the two most commonly used emitters), to aid them in battle. The first of these attachments designed had a distinct circular appearance to them but as time has worn on different designs have been implemented to make the dispensors less obvious. Created many years after the Guilliman Heresy, Trauma Armour is a significant improvement to the Legion's old Mk5 suits not least because of the time involved in it's development. 

[Olisredan 5/24/12 Post #266, Page 11]

 

It occurs to me that we have a Legion that hates organized crime and actively works to stop it. And a Legion that recruits almost primarily from organized gangs. I rather think we should shift the Space Wolf v. Dark Angels antagonism to the Vlka Fenryka v. Night Lords. 

[Cormac Airt 5/28/12 Post #288, Page 12]

 

The dichotomy between the two is rather interesting - on the one hand you might find a Night Lord commander who's perfectly in tune with these Space Wolves and on the other there could very well be another Night Lord who's the total opposite; he finds them distasteful, crude, disgusting creatures with no appreciation for order or good conduct. Perhaps there might be the odd one or two Night Lords who think the Space Wolves don't go far enough. They talk the talk but they don't walk the walk (according to them). Whereas you'll get Space Wolves joking that Night Lords are unpredictable. One Night Lord's word only counts for him and his, not the rest of the legion, as a rule. One may be a good laugh, another will be an uptight prig. 

[Olisredan 5/28/12 Post #289, Page 12]

 

Much like you said, I can see there being a mixture of great respect to open antagonism. More than that, though, I think you can find that mixture within each Legion's extremes, too, not just throughout the Legion. A Night Lord criminal could see a Fenrisian as anything from the ideal reformed to that of a rival gang. A Night Lord vigilante could see them as even worse than their own criminals, because it's a whole Legion of them, to a shining example of how a world gone to lawlessness can still provide the Imperium such outstanding service. A Night Lord cop could see them as their homeworld and Primarch's failed twin or as their successful twin depending on their outlook. Writing that last bit really drove it home to me that the two Legions and their homeworlds, as they are now, are very much two sides of the same coin. I can see Leman Russ and Konrad Curze having a very close brotherhood. They don't share the same ideals, and there's some love lost between them, but they respect each other more than any other. Going back, this can help explain why the Space Wolves never go traitor with Guilliman. Russ, with such a close working relationship with Curze, a Primarch very much antagonistic to Guilliman, as well as the changed background, never truly becomes a member of the Dauntless Few that Guilliman depends upon. To keep him [Russ] tied in with the Imperium, we should give him a certain attitude. That the Imperium is all about law and order, as the Night Lords embody, but such ideals and concepts cast long, heavy shadows for the lawless to hide in. You need someone familiar with those shadows to root them out. So some Night Lords may see Russ and his Legion as a different path to the same ideal, while some see them as simply misguided, and others don't see any higher purpose at all, they're just criminals.

[Cormac Airt 5/28/12 Post #290, Page 12]

 

Thoughts on the remaining armour marks: - Night Lords: Phobius (play on the word phobia, a suffix for various fears)

[shasVa 5/31/12 Post #318, Page 12]

 

Night Lords: Curze remains loyal - that much is widely known here. Enter "Talos". In canon, he eventually found and killed M'Shen, avenging his Primarch. I was thinking that in this story, Talos too would remain loyal, and still avenge the death of Curze at a so-far unknown date. This time around though, Talos would be a sort-of "bounty hunter", going outside the law set by Curze himself (yet still somehow remaining within it) to avenge his Primarch's death. 

[shasVa 6/5/12 Post #380, Page 16]

 

Talos as one of the vigilante types, I like it. Considering his heroic standing among his Legion, it could lead to a rise in Night Lord vigilantism, maybe even some "Night Haunter" style names. Brother-Captain Val'ken "The Shadow Slayer." 

[Cormac Airt 6/5/12 Post #381, Page 16]

 

Was also thinking about the Night Lords, and I remembered someone on this site had posted a color scheme for a Chapter called the Iron Avengers. And it got me thinking, the Night Lords are pretty divided. Small groups garrisoning many worlds. They've still got their old Legion style of crusadin' going on, but their use as law-keepers is still in practice. And I don't like the idea of it being uniform, but tailored for each world. So I was thinking they'd be organized into Great Companies, named with a noun, such as the 36th Great Company 'Iron,' and each Great Company would be divided up into Subdivisions, with a name that gets tacked onto the Company name, such as 36th Great Company, 4th Subdivision 'Iron-willed,' the Great Company's biggest Subdivision at 450 Marines, or the 3rd Subdivision 'Iron Avengers,' with 60 Marines. There's a mixture of each type of Night Lord, but some more than others. For instance, the Iron-willed are majority Enforcers, and some Reformed. The Iron Vengers are mostly Vigilantes, and a few Enforcers. Sticking with the Iron Vengers, they are made up of six squads that stick to a few of Shield Worlds the Imperium has taken from the Tau (even if they're allies, there should be plenty of things like this going on, of course). The lead Sergeant is called a Lieutenant. There's the Enforcer Lieutenant Niklai in over-all charge of the Iron Avengers, who mostly just directs the efforts of the Vigilante types. The other Enforcer is Sergeant Hauckist, a master marksman who helps the Lieutenant guide the other sergeants. Sergeant Naton Baron is a charismatic Sergeant who sometimes butts heads with the Lieutenant, operates as the subdivision's Techmarine. The Terminator Sergeant is also the banner-bearer, doubles as Apothecary (Has there ever been a Termie Apothecary?). There's Sergeant Torsal, who is something of their Champion and wears relic gear, such as old pre-Heresy armor and jump pack with the lightning strikes paint and a relic Thunderhammer. Sergeant Rovens is a veteran, wielding Bolter and Storm Shield. It's not all that subtle, but then there are huge, huge parts of 40k that are exceedingly blatant. And while I tend to like the subtle ones, the less than subtle ones are a big part of what gives 40k its charm.

Iron Avengers, an Iron Man-themed Chapter a fellow B&Cer posted about > Iron Vengers, an obsolete word for Avengers

Director Nick Fury of S.H.I.E.L.D > Lieutenant Nikolai Furiae > Lieutenant Niklai

S.H.I.E.L.D > Tau's Shield Worlds, the 'Wall of China' heavily fortified worlds the Tau keep on the borders with the White Scar territories > Reclaimed Shield Worlds

Hawkeye > Hockice > Hauckist

Tony Stark > Anton Barren > Naton Baron, Techmarine

Dr. Bruce Banner/Hulk > Apothecary/Banner-Sergeant/Terminator

Thor Lokisson, God of Thunder > Torvald, Thunder Hammer, pre-Heresy lightning armor and jump pack > Torsal

Steve Rogers, Captain America > Stegers, Veteran with Storm Shield > Rovens, Veteran with Bolter and Storm Shield 

[Cormac Airt 6/7/12 Post #398, Page 16]

 

Who are the super-loving Legions of GH if the Salamanders have gone rogue? 

Do we have any Legions out there that we've changed enough to make them more like that? Part of me thinks some of the Night Lords might, those who have worked the closest with mortals, and whose backgrounds are more likely to favor them.

[Cormac Airt 6/19/12 Post #436, Page 18]

 

The NL certainly have members that would be bro-tier, despite other brothers of theirs not fitting the 'bro' epithet at all. That would generate a reputation amongst Imperial citizens, albeit a slightly schizophrenic one, that some NLs are well worth engaging with. It may be a touch dangerous should you strike out and find the resident NL is NOT a bro but the risk is worth it. These Legionnaires are the protectors in the dark, after all.

[Olisredan 6/19/12 Post #437, Page 18]

 

Onto the Night Lords. Now, given that I had the giant distraction that is the internet taken away from me by the cruel hand of fate for just shy of a month, I had some time to kill. And so I read A D-B's fantastic Night lords trilogy, which gave me food for thought: Would the Night Lords still persue the 'Sinners Red Hands' punishment like they do in the books*? I would like to say yes, considering the metal make up of the Legion. It isn't so far removed that such a practice wouldn't be utilised, especially considering that some of the Legion have diametrically opposing metalities in regard to law and war. * Those that commit cardinal offences or are deemed to have commited (repeated) killings of serfs have their hands painted red and, when their commander so chooses, will readily bare their neck for summary execution (I'm sure there's a better way to explain it, and I've probably not quite got it right). Also, in regard to the Night Lords, it is apparent to me taht they would take on the duty to act as the the Imperium's vigilantes in this universe as the Canon version of the Legion has the generous trait of having it's sons dislike each other. In fact, they often openly hate each other, with there being exceptions made few and far between. The GH version of the Night Lords could easily follow the same path, with Legionnaires rarely liking their own brothers and often preferring to be alone or amongst the few they trust (whom they may still not see eye to eye).

[Olisredan 7/23/12 Post #483, Page 20]

 

Definitely. I know less about the red hands thing, which is why I never brought it up. Now that you have, yes it should still be there. Especially since we have reformed Criminals in the Legion. It could be one of many ways they differentiate themselves. Red-handed Criminals, baton-wielding Cops (example only) and cape-wearing Vigilantes (again, example). And we've already discussed the intra-Legionary feelings between the 'factions.'

[Cormac Airt 7/23/12 Post #484, Page 20]

 

Night Lords - Stays Loyal. Very assault oriented, ala blood angel rules. Slowly succumbing to psychic visions, known as the black sight (instead of black thirst). These visions show them their deaths, and during these times, they turn off the lightning imagery on their suits, dubbing themselves the inevitables (death company) 

[insacrum 9/26/12 Post #554, Page 23]

 

The Night Lords. I put forward that with the change in upbringing that Konrad Curze has, he's no longer "troubled" by visions. They're still there, but they go from mortal curse to terrible burden. A burden he can bear better than the canon version. But we never talked about his sons. What about those sons who share in their Primarch's burden? Calling it the Black Sight is as good a name as any, and having it focus on their own death is a nice touch. They don't see the future, just their most probable death. But they should be able to bear it, like their Primarch did. They can take his lessons to heart, and simply live in the moment. I think those with the Black Sight would be better suited for the Legion's Chaplains (which, being a secular political position instituted by a still Loyalist Legion, should remain of course). They are more spiritually tied to their Primarch in that they shared the same burdens, and from that vantage point can guide the moral values of their brothers.

[Cormac Airt 9/26/12 Post #555, Page 23]

 

This I like. Premonitions, somewhat like those seen by Talos, foretelling personal death would be an unusual twist on our Legion of vigilantes. It would add an indefinable element to their psyche that would make some of them truly unknowable to regular mortals.

[Olisredan 9/26/12 Post #556, Page 23]

 

While the primarch is no longer troubled, couldn't his offspring be more troubled by them then he is. I can see those who can handle it being chaplains, but couldn't those who are troubled, and can't handle it still be similar to Death Company (Black Company)? 

[insacrum 9/27/12 Post #557, Page 23]

 

Hmm. I'm hesitant to do an MO transplant from canon Blood Angels to GH Night Lords. Some aspects we can use, but not a straight swap. It's far too obvious and I'd prefer the application of a little more imagination (not that I'm saying putting forth such a suggestion doesn't require some imagination as well).

[Olisredan 9/28/12 Post #572, Page 23]

 

His assassination is something I do want to keep, but haven't actually touched yet. It would be by the opposition, the traitors. Who, or why, I have ideas about, but it's part of something that I want to keep between the authors in PMs before revealing. Most of all, I simply want his dying quote to remain in the Guilliman Heresy. As Olisredan said, it wouldn't do to have a complete BA/NL swap. Those who can't handle it can be ostracized, pitied, but not organized separately. They don't get to join the Chaplains (which would be a really small group for the Night Lords), and their options of advancement are incredibly low. But they're still battle-brothers. Since there's a certain level of self-contempt in our version of the Night Lords, with each 'type' of recruit resenting the others, having failed Chaplains be treated in contempt by all others is fitting. 

[Cormac Airt 9/28/12 post #575, Page 23]

 

- Adeptus Investigatus

Equivalent to the Inquisition, part of the Imperial Heirarchy rather than removed. They do not require a Chamber Militant, though they have a very close relationship with the Night Lord Legion. The rank and file of the Investigatus are the Arbites, who enforce Imperial Law across its many worlds. Though most worlds have their own enforcers, the Arbites have over-all authority in judicial matters. The commanders of the Investigatus and its agents are called Judicaries and are considered the highest judicial authority. Underneath the Judicaries, but separate from the Arbites, are the Investigators from which the organization gets its name. Given virtually total autonomy, they are the cerebral aspect of the Investigatus that unravel the myriad criminal conspiracies. I kind of like the idea of folding the Arbites into the new Investigatus. The Arbites are basically Imperial FBI, and that's what we're making the Investigatus out to be as well. I'm a bit taken with the idea of the Night Lords unsuccessfully pushing for an Arbites force during the Crusade. Following the Heresy, when an Investigatus organization is put forth as a necessary thing, the Night Lords' request is finally ratified as a part of the Investigatus organization.

[Cormac Airt 10/1/12 Post #581, Page 24]

 

The Night Lords and the Imperial Heralds spheres of influence overlap with that of the Agnostica and the Investigatus. 

[Olisredan 10/9/12 Post #595, Page 24]

 

Konrad Curze - The Law. No, that's not a Judge Dredd reference, though both can lay claim to that saying you're thinking of. Konrad Curze is the very virtue of law and order, wrapped in posthuman flesh. However, his image and that of his legion is as conflicting as that of Corax and the Raven Guard. Many accounts of him and his Legion show them to be the most stalwart protectors, the merciful and bountiful. No crime goes unpunished in their sight, and they see all. But yet there are always other accounts. That though they are the ultimate protectors of order their methods are as horrifying as those they face, fighting fire with fire in the shadows and darkness. Others still balk at how almost used they felt after the Night Lords had left, as if they had driven out one evil only by letting a greater one in. However, these contradictory reports are at best dismissed as vile rumormongering, and at worst treated fatally by enforcers of Imperial law.

I was reading up on Zodiac signs for some inspiration (twelve signs, twelve loyalists, thought there might be some correlations I can take further), and I of course thought of Konrad Curze for Libra. Which got me thinking about the prophecies that this Legion is plagued/blessed with. I think the Librarium of the Night Lords should be quite literal in their sense. There could be an interesting dynamic between the Chaplains and the Librarians. Chaplains have their prophecies, and the Librarians have the gifts to understand it and extrapolate the required lessons and instructions to prevent or ensure the vision. The Librarium is an actual library containing all of the recorded prophecies down the millennia, constantly scoured by the Legion Librarians for clues. An incident in their past has taught them that even if something happens that matches a prophecy in exacting detail, the prophecy may still have been a foretelling of an even later event. So no prophecy is ever declared to have been fulfilled, or avoided, and every Legion Librarian makes a personal effort to commit to memory the specifics of every prophecy ever recorded by the Legion. Over the millennia, that task has become impossible, but no less sought after. The Librarium has three departments fo varying importance. Greatest of all is the Primarch Collection, the recorded prophecies of every Primarch. Though the prophecies of Konrad Curze are centerpiece, the writings and recordings of Magnus and Lorgar are given great weight by the Legion of the Night Lords. There is a section of this department that only the Legion Commander and his Chief Librarian have access to what is said to contain the visions of Sanguinius before he betrayed the Emperor. This collection is focus point for all positive relations between the Night Lords and the Imperial Heralds and Thousand Sons. The second department is the Legionaire Collection, containing every last prophecy ever recorded from an Astartes. Most important of all are the visions of the Night Lord Chaplains, as they are extensions of the prophecies of their Primarch. However, all visions of the future, as glimpsed by an Astartes, are recorded in great detail. The third department is the largest of all, more than a hundred times the size of the other two departments combined. This is the collection of prophecies as seen by mortals. These are, curiously, the most secured section of the Librarium, as the barrier between realities is weaker within its walls. These are the words and ravings of mortal men and women of whom the Warp has made play of, and even their written words have the potential of tearing open a rift. As such, they are not committed to paper, like the other departments, but are electronically stored. So even though it contains vastly more information than the other departments, it's physical size is in fact smaller. I'm imagining the Librarium to be a Hive like structure of unique design. The base is a sprawling metropolis in appearance, containing the Legionaire Department. Each tower is a specifically designated collection, painstakingly sorted and organized. Seen from a great distance, the skyline of skyscrapers melds into a discernable slope. The shorter structures are on the edge, increasing in height the closer to the center the eye travels, with few exceptions to that rule. Rising from the center in a monstrous tower extending far and above the height of the assorted towers of the base is the Primarch Department, with Konrad Curze's own prophesies peaking it. An immensely powerful force shield, the twin of the one guarding the Fortress-Monastery of the Legion, covers these two departments. Hovering just over the force shield, as if a Titan of myth had simply snapped the central spire in half and suspended the broken piece on a string over the rest of it, is the remainder of the Librarium. Containing the Mortal Prophecies, it's held separate from the remainder of the Librarium, hovering on powerful gravity repulsors. The tall, dangling spire is segmented into thousands of pieces, each detachable from the whole in case of incident, where it can be destroyed. The shield, therefore, has a dual purpose. From all appearances it is to protect these prized and valued writings from outside attack. However, it is very deliberately kept up to the strength required to protect the Lower Librarium should the entire Mortal Prophecies spire be compromised and require destruction. The gravity repulsors are also powerful enough to place the tower in low orbit, as a redundancy in the protection protocols to ensure the spire's total destruction while keeping the tower and base utterly protected. This massive and powerful visual symbol is widely known across the Imperium, though very few know its actual content. Most believe it to be the largest repository of Imperial Law, something the Night Lords don't go to any great lengths to correct. The shape of the Night Lord's Librarium silhouetted by a rising sun is a symbol that many law enforcers of the Imperium wear in honour of the Night Lords. Those truly familiar with the Night Lords would know, however, that the planet of Nostramo has no sun near enough to produce that sort of effect.

Libra - Night Lords - Libran

Night Lords, of course! Dear Lord, yes, they definitely need to be involved [in the Siege of Macragge]. Because this is the point where I say Konrad Curze should fall. And not at the hands of a traitor brother or Chaos Champion. He should be slain by the assassin. Konrad Curze is the loyalist death of the Siege of Macragge. To ensure order, its champion must fall. The War Hounds, until then staying with the Imperial Fleet, launches drop pods to circumvent the Blood Angels while the Night Lords break from the Warp and add their strength to the besiegers. With the unorthodox methods of war common to the Raven Guard, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion, the Siege would be an interesting one. On one hand, you have the defenders. Stoic, stubborn, and held rigid with an immutable code of conduct. They are the ultimate warriors to stand at such a siege, not only prepared but downright proficient at defeating any conventional opponent. But on the other hand, you have the attackers, extremely unconventional. Maybe the Night Lords enter this battle with the Emperor. Curze and the Emperor fight side by side as they strike out towards the inner battle and Guilliman. This would be an ideal moment for the assassin's strike. When the two are out in the open upon its walls, where it can be hinted that the assassin's target might not have been the Primarch. It's shown in canon that when a Primarch falls in battle, his Legion pretty much falls apart over it. But what happens to a Legion whose Primarch falls, with the Emperor right there among them to assume command (maybe not literally, but more like the obvious authority figure to look to for guidance and direction) and the enemy still ahead of them? Well, the Night Lords are all very dedicated to their Primarch. In many ways, more than other Legions. With the divisiveness the Legion has, each 'type' of Night Lord considers their demeanour and outlook to be matches of Curze's and not the others. They're dedicated to Curze not just more than other Legions are dedicated to Curze, but more than their own brothers within the Legion. They might not be actually more dedicated, but more adamant and fervent with their dedication. So the Primarch falling could easily fracture the Legion down. They'd all follow the Emperor in, but it'd be a hollow victory for them at the end of it. A numbed out battle. Afterwards, the fractures of the Legion can be tended to in order to retain their post-Heresy dispostion. Divided by their organized tactics rather than fractured creeds and beliefs.

[Cormac Airt 10/13/12 Post #637, Page 26]

 

If were are to have the Chaplains receive prophecies, I think they should be renamed. Visionaries, maybe? It kinda ties into the Legion aesthetic...

[Olisredan 10/14/12 Post #638, Page 26]

 

Makes sense, a lot of Legions do that. Visionaries is a bit misleading, though, and a tad too direct. Clairvoyants?

[Cormac Airt 10/15/12 Post #641, Page 26]

 

Color piece ideas:

- Konrad Curze at the Siege of Macragge as he accepts his own foreseen death, speaking to the Emperor who is with him when it happens

- "Reformed Criminal" Night Lord of stout loyalty and purity (the kind that only those who have lost the light and found it once again can have) and a "Vigilante" Night Lord who blurs the lines of loyalty discussing who is the proper 'son' of their Primarch.

[Cormac Airt 10/17/12 Post #664, Page 27]

 

Also Curze cryptically predicting his own death, to then be elaborated on later in the story, but there's a variant on that up there.

[Ace Debonair 10/18/12 Post #668, Page 27]

 

i would like to have if its not to much of a problem, loken, garro, tarvit, torgaddon, aximand, bjorn(without being in a dreadnought) sevator, zarhariel, argel tal(crimson lord hope it spell right) kol badar, Ahriman, still kicking in 40k

[Deathwatch/Grey … 11/6/12 Post #705, Page 29]

 

Sevatar . . . Well, he's a die-hard criminal. Never a reformed criminal. Maybe he's a part of the new Night Lords Legion (I think it'd be better to completely oust him, there is no GH Sevatar), but if he is he'll be quickly killed off by Curze's purges of his unreformed criminals and vigilantes who are too zealous. 

[Cormac Airt 11/6/12 Post #707, Page 29]

 

Considering the naming mechanisms I came up with for the Night Lords, we can actually have the Crimson Fists be Night Lords. Crimson Company, Fists subdivision.

Was thinking earlier about how there were these three divisions of the Night Lords, and I was trying to put it on a scale. I thought, vigilantes far extreme one way, criminals the other way, and enforcers in the middle. Then I thought maybe the enforcers and vigilantes might reverse. But then it hit me. The lines could actually be blurred even further. We have those three divisions of the Legion. But each division could itself be divided three times once more. For instance, you got the Enforcers. Some truly believe in law and order, that it is their job to uphold the peace. Then you got the dirty cops and the mavericks. All in the Enforcers, but embodying ideals found among the other two divisions. And you got the vigilantes. Some are just giving criminals a taste of their own medicine: Fear. Some see themselves as an extension of the law into the darkness and are focused entirely on bringing them to justice right. Others see it as a sanctioned murder spree. You got the criminals who are all selfishness with no sense of right or wrong. You got the honor amongst thieves type who follow the rules they set forth to the exact letter and keep their goons on a tight leash. And then you got those who became so wrapped up in their private war with other criminals that they allowed themselves to sink to their level. The identity of the Night Lords is a very shifty character. The Legion is made up of nine distinctive personalities. It sort of reminds me of the old Dungeons and Dragons alignments. You get this, throw in fanaticism for prophesies and a tendency to be stationed at one place and you get . . . something I haven't quite gotten a grasp of yet. Heh. One thing is for sure, they are incredibly mercurial. There will be no in-universe consensus on what the Night Lords are, because it will be very contradictory from world to world.

[Cormac Airt 11/17/12 Post #717, Page 29]

 

the Age of Hierarchs would be an Age of Enlightment regardless. Though it might be nice to have a more grim Hierarch, perhaps for the War Hounds, Night Lords, or Space Wolves.

[Cormac Airt 11/19/12 Post #719, Page 29]

 

 

 

The Guilliman Heresy, Thread 2

 

VIII - Night lords - Remain loyal and are the main Legion to be used as a garrison across the galaxy given their fractious nature. Kurze pens the blueprint of what was to become the adeptus arbites before he is slain during the Siege of Macragge. The Legion is filled with vigilantes, ex-enforcers and ex-criminals. Suffice to say many members do not get on and the brotherly bond within the Night Lords is the weakest of all the Legions.

[Cormac Airt 12/09/12 Post #1, Page 1]

 

Cowboy Night Lords!

 

I know that's bizarre but hear me out. The Imperium has several frontier regions, yes? Regions where a group of Night Lords could ride in, declare themselves "The Law" and wind up more or less running things via dispensation of frontier justice (See Tom Horn or Roy Bean) to the point that they are more or less ruling the region.

 

The Imperium at large tells them they've overstepped their authority and they need to step down, the Night Lord replies that his rule is more just than how things were, why don't you make me stand down? Cue Badab War style conflict with a heavy seasoning of spaghetti Western. (This faction of Night Lords might adopt dusters worn over their power armor, to differentiate themselves from regular Sons of Curze and give them that Wild West feel. Something like the Elite Rangers in the videogame Fallout New Vegas)

 

Edit:

Will unpack this notion now that I've had time to consider angles.

 

Unlike the canon Badab War, which I'd imagine resulted in a closer watch being placed on Chapter Masters and a lessening of Astartes capability for independent action, this conflict results in the Night Lords being given extordinary privilieges in terms of serving as a seperate law enforcement body within the Imperium.

 

After all, in your basic Western movie, the men trying to bring some law to the frontier are outnumbered, outgunned, and in the right, and so it is here.

 

It's the Imperial and Mechanicum in this sector who are in the wrong, with offenses ranging from "merely" allowing Rogue Trader dynasties to squeeze every drop they can from the hapless frontiersfolk, to cutting deals with White Scar, Salamander, Ork, and Dark Eldar raiders and bandits.

 

And it is into this snake pit of corruption that a small group of Night Lords is dispatched, to bring justice. They're cut off from the rest of their chapter, and the corruption reaches so high that Iron Warrior, Space Wolf, and even other Night Lord forces are dispatched to rein them in as the bodies and bolt shells pile up (the Wolves are still the "Executioner" Legion in this timeline, right?) But even if they have to face off with their own brothers, they won't stand down. Because there has to be some law.

 

Oh, and the dusters? The planet where the main NL base in this sector is located has corrosive elements in its dust and rainfall, that can cause problems with even Astartes armor. They started wearing duster jacket style coverings over their armor, and it became a standard issue kit for all the Night Lords assigned to this sector, also it was a way to identify who was your brother and who was trying to kill you once other Night Lord forces showed up trying to gun them down. 

[Wade Garrett 01/15/13  Post #53, Page 3]

 

I would say less that the Imperium and Scientifica (Mechanicum without the religion, GH Mechanicum is full Chaos) is in the wrong and more that their appointed representatives, the Imperial Commanders of the frontier worlds, Forge Lords, etc, have become corrupted. But they operate intelligently. They pay the taxes, keep word about their indulgences hush hush, so forth. The greater Imperium/Scientifica is ignorant of their excesses, they see only the spike in efficiency. However, their local law enforcement is notably underpowered, undermanned or both. Which catches the eye of the Night Lords, who then proceed to dispatch a taskforce to the Sector with the orders to investigate and, if need be, enforce the law.

 

They're not met with great hospitality. They're certainly not openly attacked, but when the powers that be on these worlds discover that the Night Lords sent to their realms have caught their scent, things start to get hairy.

 

And what does the greater Imperium/Scientifica notice? The Night Lords are warring on an otherwise loyal region of space, whose marked efficiency has since been spiraling down. As this is a Legion issue, other Legions are brought in to censure the Night Lords present.

 

Here's where I get iffy on how to proceed. Who to bring in, how far to escalate and where do we conclude it. Space Wolves can be brought in, but we have not stated anything about the Executioner thing. And it's a hot topic, I'd rather not take a stand. Better to hint at both. With the Sector being a frontier, they're far from the hub of Imperial Routes. But, they've made themselves important to the Imperium. Though ill-begotten, it's an efficient Sector. So tendrils are beginning to spread in their direction. With the Space Wolves being one of two Legions that frequent the Routes as part of its military back-up, aggressive expansions, etc, they're the first Legion in. Maybe they were ordered in because of proximity and ease of mobility, maybe it's because they were the most trusted to end a possible Legionary insurrection attempt. Who else to bring in, I don't know.

 

As far as escalation, what do we do? Night Lord taskforces can range from a few hundred to a single Legionaire. Say it's only a squad, or a collection of squads that divide themselves along squad lines between the frontier worlds, to keep with the gunslinger theme. That's not a sizable force and any retribution against them would be met with swift success, if in force. As the Space Wolves certainly would. So is this a short period of Guerrilla Cowboys? Or do we have the Taskforce call in aid from the greater Legion of the Night Lords, who answer their call?

 

And where do we conclude it? Before matters get out of hand, where the Night Lords have to be openly censured or even get forced to turn traitor? Just the taskforce, or the whole Legion? Does the greater Imperium discover the true face of the frontier worlds in time, or do they back them up to the bloody end? Does the Taskforce itself become corrupted in its pursuit for justice, whether unwittingly or not?

 

I say, make the period in time where it's just a taskforce on the frontier last longer. A decade or so before the Imperium itself begins to move in. Then, it's a period of cease-fires and puffed chests and hurled threats as the fleets of the Night Lords and Space Wolves face off across the empty expanse, culminating with the Night Lords barely, just barely standing down. The Legions were inches from tearing into each other before the Night Lords finally allow the Space Wolves to continue to the region. There they find that the Taskforce sent in, though they began with noble intentions and still believe they seek justice, have become themselves corrupted. They defend themselves, but are overwhelmed. Instead of being captured or killed, however, they take flight. Though small, they remain at large.

[Cormac Airt 01/16/13 Post #55, Page 3]

 

Well, I see it as only part of the VIII Legion being involved in this, for good or ill. That's the positive of their "lack of Legion unity", while it makes it hard to get the whole Legion working towards a single goal it also means that any higher ups who go off the reservation can only take their immediate subordinates with them, sort of what the canon Chapter system is supposed to accomplish. (That, and being a Legion of Martin Riggs, John Mclanes, Marion Cobrettis, and Sledge Hammers is going to make forging a clear chain of command a bit..difficult. Or have I misunderstood the theme of the GH Lords as a Legion of Rogue Cops on the Edge Who Don't Play By the Rules, as compared to Canon Sneaky Serial Killers Who Like Bats?)

 

And I certainly meant that it was only the local Imperium/Scientifica who were corrupt, not the realm as a whole, sorry if I wasn't clearer on that. That's actually another theme in a lot of Westerns, the U.S. Marshals, U.S. Army, or the Rangers may be good guys but they're a long way off, and the local marshal is in the black hats back pocket. As to what other Legions to drag in...the Iron Warriors have close ties to the Scientifica, right? And assuming they're a bit similar to canon, they have that "X amount of blood shed is a reasonable price for achieving objective Y" that could lead to them clashing with the much more "We see things in black and white" Night Lords.

 

As for how things develop...at first it's the Night Lords defending the fringe planets against the various Orks, Salamanders, pirates, rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, *cuss*-kickers, *cuss*-kickers, and Methodists, and being undermined by the crooked local authorties, to the the point that they decide to start hanging and shooting said local authorites, cue elements of the Imperial armed forces and other Astartes being brought in against them.

 

I see their forces being sort of like the Tyrant's Guard from the original Badab war, you've got the core of Night Lords with allies ranging from grizzled ex Guardsmen, hard bitten hunters and trappers, peaceful farmers with improvised weapons made from farming tools, allied contingents of tribals who use tomahawks and arrows, and so on. With them being reinforced by heavier elements from the Night Lords main chapters (perhaps the Night Lord Leader, who by Curze is going to have Cypher's "Gunslinger" special rule, calls for aid from chapter brothers he knows he can trust).

 

As for them going corrupt in the end...at first I didn't like it, but looking at this we are still in the grim darkness of the far future, falling into damnation by trying to cling to ideals of justice and law is a 40K staple.

 

In that case, I see the Night Lord leader making a deal with Chaos to save his forces from the final attack by the Iron Warriors, Wolves, and whoever else, with him fleeing to become a sort of "Hanging Judge" figure who stages mock trials before his warships execute Exterminatus attacks on the Imperium's worlds.

("All have sinned. The wages of sin is death. I believe you can figure out how things go from here, little man.") 

[Wade Garrett 01/16/13 Post #56, Page 3]

 

I'd rather the Taskforce go renegade, non-Chaos. The sort of renegades that are still loyal to their ideal of the Imperium, if not the actual Imperium. Any transition to Chaos should follow the initial betrayal, as a slow decay for survival. Think Soul Drinkers rather than Red Corsairs. No actual deals, just misguided loyalty.

It's a nice blanket description, but it does go further. The Legion is heavily divided among themselves in manner. The three greatest descriptors we've used are the Enforcers (by the book lawmen), Vigilantes (Civilians with their own interpretation of the law) and Ex-Criminals (Think born-again Christians, people who have wronged but now see the light). Within each three categories however, there's plenty who divide it further. Enforcers who take the law into their own hands, Vigilantes who do not deviate from the written law, Ex-Criminals who use their dark talents against their former kindred, and so forth. The idea of the Western gunmen fits in the Night Lords because the Night Lords represent every single iteration of the law. Whether by holding to it, re-interpreting it, or bending/breaking it. The Night Lords are the law. In every single possible way, good or bad. They're Judge Dredd, Gentleman Johnny Marcone, Batman, Superman, Two-Face, the Punisher, J. Edgar Hoover, Al Capone, Texas Rangers, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday, the Boondock Saints, TV's Dexter and Harry Callahan. And yes, Martin Riggs, John McLane, Marion Cobretti and Sledge Hammer (which I never knew about until now and totally want to watch).

 

Taskforce Guard idea is good, and can be fitting. With how much the Night Lords operate with mortal institutions (primarily the arbites), it stands to reason that their smaller forces would have an effective mortal entourage. Not altogether different from the Alpha Legion, though towards different purposes. Or the GH War Hounds, where Grand Companies are almost permanently attached to a Fleet and their Army contingent.

 

However, about the Legion unity and chain of command. We never really did specify who was in command and how that worked. The only thing I can recall was a heavy inference that the high higher-ups tend to organize taskforces in a way to best take advantage of this diversity, by making very specific combinations and carefully choosing commanders. I also think that there was some criteria mentioned on how a Night Lord got to join a Taskforce, or be up for selection, something that showed that, despite how eclectic they can be, they have progressed to a point where they will serve the greater purpose rather than their own. Sort of like how the canon Space Wolves have that transition between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. In this case, it's Legionaires part of the greater crusading host and those veterans who have proven their worth and operate as Taskforces, which are as eclectic and diverse as the Legion itself. So, with that understanding, this Taskforce we're discussing now would be specifically chosen, populated and mandated by a rather unified command to specifically counter the known/perceived threats in this frontier colony. 

[Cormac Airt 01/17/13 Post #58, Page 3]

 

Well now i think you have to write a color piece where one of those night lords broadcasts across the sector in a very gravelly voice that "person XYZ is not the law we are the law". Perhaps this Night Lords name is Josephus Drett. 

[Wulfkry 01/17/13 Post #59, Page 3]

 

I've been continuing to ponder on my Badab War spin off, and I really think it needs to have a great big city fight between the VIII and IV Legions.

Here's why:

I'm seeing that the Night Lords have a very black and white vision of how things are: There is the Law. Flout the law, deny the law, defy the law, and know this: You will behold those in midnight clad, and it will be the last thing you ever see.

Meanwhile, the Iron Warriors are pragmatic, secular, seeing the gray areas and compromises needed to allow Mankind to survive in the Ages of Darkness.

Of course they aren't going to get along. Then there's the fact that the Iron Warriors are urban warfare specialists, the Night Lords are Enforcers of the Law. Consider the great urban combat zones of history: Stalingrad, Fallejah, etc. Generally, they were burned to the ground. Compare that to the way all those agents of the law you mentioned (The Saints, Capone, etc.) operate. So...we've got an ideological conflict, and a "Way Things Are Done" Conflict. By the Throne, let's spin this into an actual chainblades screaming and bolters roaring conflict!

[Wade Garrett 01/28/13 Post #62, Page 3]

 

Though the Night Lords are the present force and any reaction to them would be to root them out, I think it'd be great if such a hive battle took place that the positions be reversed. The Iron Warriors place themselves in the Night Lords' way, fortifying themselves in a large hive the Night Lords have publicly declared their next target for justice.

Therefore, the Night Lords are the Marshals moving in to clean up the lawless rather than being 'caught in the act,' while the Iron Warriors, with their moral high ground, wind up defending those unworthy of their aid. The grimdarkness of it is that the Iron Warriors are as ever cold and pragmatic, seeing collateral damage as an easy price to pay, while the Night Lords are fervent in their pursuit of justice and see no innocent bystanders, only conspirators of varying guilt. Though one side fights the corrupt no matter their status and the other defends a beleaguered Imperial institution, in the middle the innocents suffer.

I think if I'm going to borrow from any real world application of urban/guerrilla warfare, I'm going to use the Sandinistas of Nicaraguan fame. What with the U.S.'s involvement, it has a lot of links to the idea of a battle between the two Legions. A group of guerrilla fighters seeking to end injustice, meeting with success, only for another great power that should be on their side, that of justice, instead moves against them. That, and Contra and Peacewalker are two awesome games, one old and the other new.

However, the Night Lords are few in number while the Iron Warriors would probably field at least a Grand Company. Since the Iron Warriors are the urban warfare fighters of Our40k, it stands to reason that they would win. Though the battle would be hard-fought, and the Night Lords should definitely have some moments to be proud about, it'll inevitably be an Iron Warriors victory.

Or the Iron Warriors win their battle, while the Night Lords win theirs. Though the Night Lords are brutally kicked out of the hive, they still managed to bring to justice their primary targets. In other words, the ringleaders are still executed, while the Iron Warriors, as far as they see it or know, successfully defend the hive.

[Cormac Airt 01/29/13 Post #63, Page 3]

 

Speaking of my Night Lords problems, does anyone have any ideas on what we can have the Night Lords do during the Great Crusade and opening parts of the Heresy? I got the backstory, the endgame, and most of the other parts filled out (though they need to be tweaked because I think I repeated myself a bit too much when areas overlapped), but there's a giant gaping hole from the finding of Kurze to his death, filled in with nothing more than their failed attempt to institutionalize an Imperial law-keeping force and slow transition into a garrisoning Legion following said failure.

[Cormac Airt 03/13/13 Post #100, Page 4]

 

Well, in the canon Heresy the Night Lords and the Dark Angels come to blows in the Thramas Crusade, specifically on the world of Tsagualsa. Besides that there is the IsstVan V massacre but there is little they did beyond that (for now) during the early-mid years of the Heresy. 

I suggest jettisoning the Thramas Crusade, as the Night Lords have had a fundamental change in outlook (as a Legion). And considering the Isstvan analogue in our universe is Miral (while the Isstvan system itself is curbstomped by the Lion), that means, at least for the time being, we are left to our own devices with little reference from canon.

Also something of note is that the Night Lords are only mentioned three times in the Timeline. That is something that we'll have to remedy, lest they become bit part actors in our drama.

Now, as an idea, what about having them harry Rebel forces? Perhaps taking on loose elements of the Rebel Army forces (as opposed to the Imperial Army). There must be a wealth of manpower that the five-hundred worlds of Ultramar has that needs to be stymied - their fighting forces no doubt received a call-up when Guilliman boosted the numbers of his own Legion in preparation for his coup. In fact there would possibly be Tyrant Legion-esque organisations, with Legionnaires heading up great lumps of militia and forming the elite of the Ultramar Armies. I know it's shades of Badab here but we've known for a while elements of that story would be an influence.

New thought - who exactly would be the antithesis to the GH Night Lords? The closest I can think of is the White Scars and their secession, even though the link is rather tenuous. I could certainly imagine specific members of the Night Lords taking umbrage at the fact that the Khan has decided to remove himself from the Imperium (while others couldn't care less), but how influential those members would be, I don't know.  

[Olisredan 03/14/13 Post #101, Page 5]

 

Here's an idea. You brought up the White Scars as their antithesis. How about we swap what you put about Ultramar for the White Scars' secessionists? When one Legion turns, irrespective of the other traitorous Legions, one Legion is sent to 'handle' it and no more. The Night Lords are the ones tasked with this, however during the endgame they are pulled out so that they may play their role in Ultramar. This gives the White Scars their opponent, something they hadn't had yet but was something they needed (they couldn't just waltz through the Heresy unmolested), gives the Night Lords something that that's all their own (the sole Imperial response to the Khan's secession) and lets us develop an entirely separate war that occurs simultaneously to the Heresy. If we have the Night Lords stall their plans for the White Scars in order to participate in the massed invasion of Ultramar, we can use that time as the White Scars' greatest expansion, taking nearly a Segmentum's worth of space both from the traitors and the loyalists and utilizing the relatively brief time in which those sides need to recollect themselves and renew their efforts to consolidate and fortify their positions. 

[Cormac Airt 03/14/13 Post #102, Page 5]

 

The fact that Chemos lies close to Chogoris and that we have Fulgrim outright refusing to aid the Khan because of their paranoia over his meeting with the traitors, and the mysteriousness of what happened at Miral, means we should have an EC/WS conflict as well. Perhaps the Emperor's Children and the Night Lords are tasked with this? One Legion turns, so they send two to ensure victory. The White Scars, however, are perfectly suited to fighting larger forces with hit and run attacks and are based out of a zone that can't be properly assaulted. The Emperor's Children assault from the galactic south, but are mostly concerned with keeping the White Scars from expanding in their direction. The Night Lords, however, are most about assaulting and reclaiming worlds. However, their position is easily cut off by the White Scars. Though they are an effective force, they can't keep up with the mobility of the White Scars. When the Ultramar invasion begins, they invade Ultramar from the galactic north, creating a war on all fronts for the Ultramarians.

[Cormac Airt 03/15/13 Post #104, Page 5]

 

That certainly makes for good future clashes, I think (we can discuss that nugget at a later point). As for the Night lords, this extra incentive will add that little something to spur on the Legion, despite themselves. I'm sure there'd be more than one dissenting voice that would advocate leaving Nostromo, as it becomes a weight around the neck of the legion (in the eyes of some). It'd make for some nice character development (Legion-wise) to have Nostromo directly threatened. So. Night Lords vs White Scars. That should make for an interesting fight made outside of the limelight of the main Heresy itself. 

The White Scars at Miral would stoke the fires of mistrust that we've given to the Khan, or at least start them. Plus, giving the Scars Baal would definitely put the cat amongst the pidgeons when the Blood Angels find out. It also puts a much looked for feather in the Khans hat - I say that is a good idea all round. Also having the Khanate beset by the Emperor's Children and the Night Lords will work for a time - at some point Fulgrim will need to take his leave of that theatre because he'll be needed on stage for the Siege of Terra. Hmm... I wonder what the Night Lords would make of that?

[Olisredan 03/19/13 Post #105, Page 5]

 

Hm. We have the Night Lords be particularly conflicted internally. Should we have one group champion the idea of leaving Nostramo? If so, who? I would think only the ex-criminals would be for that, but do they have enough power to make it an issue? Well, nevermind. Let's amp up this internal conflict. It's across group lines, based around recruitment centers. With the Night Lords garrisoning multiple worlds, some as heavily defended as Nostramo itself, they would certainly recruit at least some of these otherworlders. Perhaps these otherworlders champion it, specifically rallying to a single world, an early conquest that is in many ways more ideal to the Night Lords than Nostramo itself and is the largest non-Nostraman recruitment center of the Legion. 

It'd help make the three sides following the Heresy openly hate everyone equally, adding major Loyalist and Traitor rivals to the Khanate.  How about this, the Night Lords don't know about the coming Siege of Terra. They're cut off by the Scars and far from Terra. The Emperor's Children, however, do know. All the Night Lords know is that when planned battles arrive, the Emperor's Children never show up. Later they may discover the reason, but they'll never forgive the Emperor's Children. Probably because they can't forgive themselves for their absence, explaining their presence at the Siege of Macragge.

[Cormac Airt 03/19/13 Post #106, Page 5]

 

[Conn Eremon]

Post was too large! Here's the most current fluff then. Might even be better, I guess. One post with all of the information, the second post with what is the closest to GH "canon."

 

 

Most Current Information

- Konrad stays loyal, and never issued Exterminatus on his homeworld.

- The Night Lords still retain their use of terror tactics.

- The legion strongly believes in the protection of humanity and the annihilation of Chaos and those who consort with them.

Corax, who could now bond with Konrad Curze, 

Konrad Curze's pod slams into the outer shell of Nostramo at an extreme angle. Rather than burrowing straight down, his vessel streaks almost horizontally, leaving a massive scar across the surface of the world. Nostramo's negligent peace-keeping forces encircle it as the young Primarch exits the crushed pod. Taken rather unawares, the Chief takes the child in, where he is raised by her. The Primarch's rapid growth and learning are tempered by a greater sense of morality and an unbending core of justice, which influences his adopted mother into reforming the law enforcement agency she commands. For the first time in centuries, petty criminals were brought to task for their deeds, something that didn't go unnoticed by the all-powerful criminal organizations that held the true reigns of power on Nostramo and who remained untouched. What follows is a true Crime War between the criminal and the enforcer. Konrad is held away from the violence by his well-meaning mother, but he doesn't stay away. Seeing the criminal elements winning, Konrad begins disappearing at night. What follows is a reign of terror over the law-breakers, as a mysterious entity begins to take them, one by one. They are not killed, but are instead found in a cell that no law enforcer remembers putting them in. This entity is referred to as the Night Haunter. Feeling that their advantage was slipping, the criminal syndicates try a last-ditch attempt to win the war. They detonate an entire Hive tower, the very tower that Curze's adopted mother and he lives, hoping to cut the head off of their enemy in one fell swoop. The attempt is successful. Though the Chief survives the blast, she is unable to lead. Having worked as something of a protege, and having earned the respect of the enforcers, Curze quickly and readily takes up his adopted mother's mantle. In a public display, he reveals himself as the one called the Night Haunter, though he refuses that name. "Haunt the nights I have, but I am no Night Haunter. My name is Konrad Curze, and what I am is far more of a threat to you and yours than anything you could ever fear." From this point forward, whatever reservations Curze had to killing his enemies was gone. His inner core of justice burned just as bright as before, but maturity and experience has shown him that in order to best serve that justice he must utterly remove those who could never be rehabilitated to it. From henceforth, the crime wars became much more one-sided. With Curze now demanding blood rather than just compliance, the criminal ringleaders found that whatever tactic they could utilize, whatever path they take, nothing could stop him. One by one, cabal by cabal, the criminal overlords of Nostramo were torn down from their loft and cast aside. With the world in such dire need of guidance and leadership, having ripped away the corruption that was once in its place, Konrad Curze refuses the offer to become a global leader. He declares himself High Enforcer, leader of the militant law providers, and vows to keep watch over the world as its populace chooses for itself who will rule them. It is in this state that the Emperor finds Nostramo and his wayward son. Unified with his Legion, enlightened to his true purpose, Konrad Curze directs his burning justice onto the galaxy at large. He and his Night Lords, so named for they rule the cold harshness of space, and from it they bring the light of the Emperor's justice. At home, on Nostramo, the criminal elements still left breathe a sigh of relief, and maneuver themselves to take back their world. But not everyone was content to put up with it anymore. Many, in fact, looked to Curze as inspiration. Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of people, all across Nostramo, took to the night. Many were alone, others went in pairs. A rare few organized themselves into gang-like groups. All slipped away into the night, and showed the criminal elements left that in the darkness there was still something they should fear. Organized crime will always be Nostramo's greatest problem, but for every villain to terrorize the populace there is a civilian who champions Curze's ideals.  So, that's basically it. Turn the Night Haunter/Konrad Curze into just Konrad Curze. Not an evil thing in the dark, but a man who can never turn his back on his ideals. Turn a world that reverts back into criminal debauchery into a Marvel/DC universe with its villains and its heroes, just minus the uniforms and superpowers. I gave Konrad a mother for two reasons. One: I felt that providing him with a living connection to Nostramo's society would lead to a more noble Curze, as he doesn't spend his youth as a feral beast in the underhive, and Two: I thought that a mother's love especially would better aid him in dealing with his nascent psychic visions and the visions that haunt him. Though now that I think of it, I can't think of a single other Primarch with a mother. They only ever had adopted fathers. So I think it'd be great just for that purpose too. As for how he deals with his Legion, and its own criminal elements, I'm unsure of. On one hand, we could just say that there never was any. On the other, we could say that instead of Curze accepting this fact and falling further into his Night Haunter persona, he willingly and utterly purges the corruption from his Legion. I suppose the way I would go about it is to have there still be a criminal element. Perhaps the Legion recruits from two sources: the vigilantes and the rehabilitated criminals. When certain of the criminals reveal themselves as not very rehabilitated, Curze brands them. Perhaps the crimson fist of Zso Zahaal (or whatever his name was) is how they are marked. From then on, those branded are used in suicidal tactics. If they refuse to live by the Emperor's light, than they can die delivering it, kind of mentality. Otherwise, Curze does give criminals the chance to reform their ways. During the Guilliman Heresy, this organization can bite back at him, as those who refuse to reform declare themselves for Guilliman. The Legion has a minor civil war, nowhere near the same levels as the Dark Angels though. Mostly, the criminals break off and flee. Many are killed, but the bulk gets away. They meet up with Guilliman, declare themselves loyal subjects, and swell his Legion. I still think we should keep with him being assassinated. 

It seems like this legion will focus more on justice than terror tactics, but still, a legion full of vigilantes and (maybe) reformed criminals sounds like terror tactics aren't below them. 

I definitely want the Night Lords to keep their terror tactics, but as you pointed out they may be exclusive to certain Night Lords depending on their lives prior to induction to the Legion. I was actually thinking that much of the Legion would take the place of the Iron Warriors of canon. So if we have the Night Lords, in their role as the enforcers of Imperial law and might, garrison conquered worlds as a sort of pre-Adeptus Arbites force, the Iron Warriors are freed up to continue the Great Crusade. Given that fully half the Night Lords were enforcers before being inducted I don't think it'd be much of a stretch to say that they'd mostly welcome this new role. The vigilantes might take well to it for the same reasons, though they'd prefer to use terror tactics. The criminal elements wouldn't take to it at all, and many of their reformations would fail because of it. They, also, would probably use terror tactics. 

Having the Adeptus Arbites and the Night Lords work in co-operation is a very good idea.

Perhaps having a small group or singular Night Lords spending a period on established (and frontier) Imperial worlds hunting wrong-doers and supporting Arbites before returning to 'active' duty on the frontlines (they are super-soldiers after all) would be good. 

The Night Lords and Adeptus Arbites, for instance, have an amiable, equal cooperation.

Night Lords - "Warden" power armour (Mk4c) Also created long after the Heresy, 'Warden' Armour descends from the celebrated Mk4 'Maximus' suits. Created for mobility, the armour plating is a little lighter than is antecedent yet it incorporates the exterior cables to protect them from potential harm. Intended for use by units not heading into heavy combat, the 'Warden' Suit will not stand up to the sort of punishment 'Trauma' Armour might but is ideal for evading blows that would strike other suits more directly. Often used by Night Lords on garrison duty and by scouts, it is perfect for on foot recon and stalking missions. Also the first noted mark of armour that could be worn by unaugmented humans, given the right modifications.

Night Lords - "Trauma" power armour (Mk6b) The main battlefield armour of the Night Lords, 'Trauma' Armour's sleek lines and advanced sensor suite stem from research into the aborted Mk6 suit leading up to and during the Heresy. The aesthetics of the armour itself sweep back from a central line, with the helmet taking on a look similar to the abandoned Mk6 Corvus helmet designs. Housed in dispensible, modular armour attachments on the chest plating are dispensors designed to house modified Photon Flash or Blind emitters (the two most commonly used emitters), to aid them in battle. The first of these attachments designed had a distinct circular appearance to them but as time has worn on different designs have been implemented to make the dispensors less obvious. Created many years after the Guilliman Heresy, Trauma Armour is a significant improvement to the Legion's old Mk5 suits not least because of the time involved in it's development. 

I rather think we should shift the Space Wolf v. Dark Angels antagonism to the Vlka Fenryka v. Night Lords. 

The dichotomy between the two is rather interesting - on the one hand you might find a Night Lord commander who's perfectly in tune with these Space Wolves and on the other there could very well be another Night Lord who's the total opposite; he finds them distasteful, crude, disgusting creatures with no appreciation for order or good conduct. Perhaps there might be the odd one or two Night Lords who think the Space Wolves don't go far enough. They talk the talk but they don't walk the walk (according to them). Whereas you'll get Space Wolves joking that Night Lords are unpredictable. One Night Lord's word only counts for him and his, not the rest of the legion, as a rule. One may be a good laugh, another will be an uptight prig. 

Much like you said, I can see there being a mixture of great respect to open antagonism. More than that, though, I think you can find that mixture within each Legion's extremes, too, not just throughout the Legion. A Night Lord criminal could see a Fenrisian as anything from the ideal reformed to that of a rival gang. A Night Lord vigilante could see them as even worse than their own criminals, because it's a whole Legion of them, to a shining example of how a world gone to lawlessness can still provide the Imperium such outstanding service. A Night Lord cop could see them as their homeworld and Primarch's failed twin or as their successful twin depending on their outlook. Writing that last bit really drove it home to me that the two Legions and their homeworlds, as they are now, are very much two sides of the same coin. I can see Leman Russ and Konrad Curze having a very close brotherhood. They don't share the same ideals, and there's some love lost between them, but they respect each other more than any other. Going back, this can help explain why the Space Wolves never go traitor with Guilliman. Russ, with such a close working relationship with Curze, a Primarch very much antagonistic to Guilliman, as well as the changed background, never truly becomes a member of the Dauntless Few that Guilliman depends upon. To keep him [Russ] tied in with the Imperium, we should give him a certain attitude. That the Imperium is all about law and order, as the Night Lords embody, but such ideals and concepts cast long, heavy shadows for the lawless to hide in. You need someone familiar with those shadows to root them out. So some Night Lords may see Russ and his Legion as a different path to the same ideal, while some see them as simply misguided, and others don't see any higher purpose at all, they're just criminals.

armour marks: - Night Lords: Phobius 

Talos would be a sort-of "bounty hunter", going outside the law set by Curze himself (yet still somehow remaining within it) 

Considering his heroic standing among his Legion, it could lead to a rise in Night Lord vigilantism, maybe even some "Night Haunter" style names. 

the Night Lords are pretty divided. Small groups garrisoning many worlds. They've still got their old Legion style of crusadin' going on, but their use as law-keepers is still in practice. And I don't like the idea of it being uniform, but tailored for each world. So I was thinking they'd be organized into Great Companies, named with a noun, such as the 36th Great Company 'Iron,' and each Great Company would be divided up into Subdivisions, with a name that gets tacked onto the Company name, such as 36th Great Company, 4th Subdivision 'Iron-willed,' the Great Company's biggest Subdivision at 450 Marines, or the 3rd Subdivision 'Iron Avengers,' with 60 Marines. There's a mixture of each type of Night Lord, but some more than others. For instance, the Iron-willed are majority Enforcers, and some Reformed. The Iron Vengers are mostly Vigilantes, and a few Enforcers. Sticking with the Iron Vengers, they are made up of six squads that stick to a few of Shield Worlds the Imperium has taken from the Tau (even if they're allies, there should be plenty of things like this going on, of course). The lead Sergeant is called a Lieutenant. There's the Enforcer Lieutenant Niklai in over-all charge of the Iron Avengers, who mostly just directs the efforts of the Vigilante types. The other Enforcer is Sergeant Hauckist, a master marksman who helps the Lieutenant guide the other sergeants. Sergeant Naton Baron is a charismatic Sergeant who sometimes butts heads with the Lieutenant, operates as the subdivision's Techmarine. The Terminator Sergeant is also the banner-bearer, doubles as Apothecary (Has there ever been a Termie Apothecary?). There's Sergeant Torsal, who is something of their Champion and wears relic gear, such as old pre-Heresy armor and jump pack with the lightning strikes paint and a relic Thunderhammer. Sergeant Rovens is a veteran, wielding Bolter and Storm Shield.

Part of me thinks some of the Night Lords might, those who have worked the closest with mortals, and whose backgrounds are more likely to favor them.

The NL certainly have members that would be bro-tier, despite other brothers of theirs not fitting the 'bro' epithet at all. That would generate a reputation amongst Imperial citizens, albeit a slightly schizophrenic one, that some NLs are well worth engaging with. It may be a touch dangerous should you strike out and find the resident NL is NOT a bro but the risk is worth it. These Legionnaires are the protectors in the dark, after all.

Onto the Night Lords. Now, given that I had the giant distraction that is the internet taken away from me by the cruel hand of fate for just shy of a month, I had some time to kill. And so I read A D-B's fantastic Night lords trilogy, which gave me food for thought: Would the Night Lords still persue the 'Sinners Red Hands' punishment like they do in the books*? I would like to say yes, considering the metal make up of the Legion. It isn't so far removed that such a practice wouldn't be utilised, especially considering that some of the Legion have diametrically opposing metalities in regard to law and war. * Those that commit cardinal offences or are deemed to have commited (repeated) killings of serfs have their hands painted red and, when their commander so chooses, will readily bare their neck for summary execution (I'm sure there's a better way to explain it, and I've probably not quite got it right). Also, in regard to the Night Lords, it is apparent to me taht they would take on the duty to act as the the Imperium's vigilantes in this universe as the Canon version of the Legion has the generous trait of having it's sons dislike each other. In fact, they often openly hate each other, with there being exceptions made few and far between. The GH version of the Night Lords could easily follow the same path, with Legionnaires rarely liking their own brothers and often preferring to be alone or amongst the few they trust (whom they may still not see eye to eye).

The Night Lords. I put forward that with the change in upbringing that Konrad Curze has, he's no longer "troubled" by visions. They're still there, but they go from mortal curse to terrible burden. A burden he can bear better than the canon version. But we never talked about his sons. What about those sons who share in their Primarch's burden? Calling it the Black Sight is as good a name as any, and having it focus on their own death is a nice touch. They don't see the future, just their most probable death. But they should be able to bear it, like their Primarch did. They can take his lessons to heart, and simply live in the moment. I think those with the Black Sight would be better suited for the Legion's Chaplains (which, being a secular political position instituted by a still Loyalist Legion, should remain of course). They are more spiritually tied to their Primarch in that they shared the same burdens, and from that vantage point can guide the moral values of their brothers.

Premonitions, somewhat like those seen by Talos, foretelling personal death would be an unusual twist on our Legion of vigilantes. It would add an indefinable element to their psyche that would make some of them truly unknowable to regular mortals.

- Adeptus Investigatus

Equivalent to the Inquisition, part of the Imperial Heirarchy rather than removed. They do not require a Chamber Militant, though they have a very close relationship with the Night Lord Legion. The rank and file of the Investigatus are the Arbites, who enforce Imperial Law across its many worlds. Though most worlds have their own enforcers, the Arbites have over-all authority in judicial matters. The commanders of the Investigatus and its agents are called Judicaries and are considered the highest judicial authority. Underneath the Judicaries, but separate from the Arbites, are the Investigators from which the organization gets its name. Given virtually total autonomy, they are the cerebral aspect of the Investigatus that unravel the myriad criminal conspiracies. I kind of like the idea of folding the Arbites into the new Investigatus. The Arbites are basically Imperial FBI, and that's what we're making the Investigatus out to be as well. I'm a bit taken with the idea of the Night Lords unsuccessfully pushing for an Arbites force during the Crusade. Following the Heresy, when an Investigatus organization is put forth as a necessary thing, the Night Lords' request is finally ratified as a part of the Investigatus organization.

Konrad Curze - The Law. No, that's not a Judge Dredd reference, though both can lay claim to that saying you're thinking of. Konrad Curze is the very virtue of law and order, wrapped in posthuman flesh. However, his image and that of his legion is as conflicting as that of Corax and the Raven Guard. Many accounts of him and his Legion show them to be the most stalwart protectors, the merciful and bountiful. No crime goes unpunished in their sight, and they see all. But yet there are always other accounts. That though they are the ultimate protectors of order their methods are as horrifying as those they face, fighting fire with fire in the shadows and darkness. Others still balk at how almost used they felt after the Night Lords had left, as if they had driven out one evil only by letting a greater one in. However, these contradictory reports are at best dismissed as vile rumormongering, and at worst treated fatally by enforcers of Imperial law.

I was reading up on Zodiac signs for some inspiration (twelve signs, twelve loyalists, thought there might be some correlations I can take further), and I of course thought of Konrad Curze for Libra. Which got me thinking about the prophecies that this Legion is plagued/blessed with. I think the Librarium of the Night Lords should be quite literal in their sense. There could be an interesting dynamic between the Chaplains and the Librarians. Chaplains have their prophecies, and the Librarians have the gifts to understand it and extrapolate the required lessons and instructions to prevent or ensure the vision. The Librarium is an actual library containing all of the recorded prophecies down the millennia, constantly scoured by the Legion Librarians for clues. An incident in their past has taught them that even if something happens that matches a prophecy in exacting detail, the prophecy may still have been a foretelling of an even later event. So no prophecy is ever declared to have been fulfilled, or avoided, and every Legion Librarian makes a personal effort to commit to memory the specifics of every prophecy ever recorded by the Legion. Over the millennia, that task has become impossible, but no less sought after. The Librarium has three departments fo varying importance. Greatest of all is the Primarch Collection, the recorded prophecies of every Primarch. Though the prophecies of Konrad Curze are centerpiece, the writings and recordings of Magnus and Lorgar are given great weight by the Legion of the Night Lords. There is a section of this department that only the Legion Commander and his Chief Librarian have access to what is said to contain the visions of Sanguinius before he betrayed the Emperor. This collection is focus point for all positive relations between the Night Lords and the Imperial Heralds and Thousand Sons. The second department is the Legionaire Collection, containing every last prophecy ever recorded from an Astartes. Most important of all are the visions of the Night Lord Chaplains, as they are extensions of the prophecies of their Primarch. However, all visions of the future, as glimpsed by an Astartes, are recorded in great detail. The third department is the largest of all, more than a hundred times the size of the other two departments combined. This is the collection of prophecies as seen by mortals. These are, curiously, the most secured section of the Librarium, as the barrier between realities is weaker within its walls. These are the words and ravings of mortal men and women of whom the Warp has made play of, and even their written words have the potential of tearing open a rift. As such, they are not committed to paper, like the other departments, but are electronically stored. So even though it contains vastly more information than the other departments, it's physical size is in fact smaller. I'm imagining the Librarium to be a Hive like structure of unique design. The base is a sprawling metropolis in appearance, containing the Legionaire Department. Each tower is a specifically designated collection, painstakingly sorted and organized. Seen from a great distance, the skyline of skyscrapers melds into a discernable slope. The shorter structures are on the edge, increasing in height the closer to the center the eye travels, with few exceptions to that rule. Rising from the center in a monstrous tower extending far and above the height of the assorted towers of the base is the Primarch Department, with Konrad Curze's own prophesies peaking it. An immensely powerful force shield, the twin of the one guarding the Fortress-Monastery of the Legion, covers these two departments. Hovering just over the force shield, as if a Titan of myth had simply snapped the central spire in half and suspended the broken piece on a string over the rest of it, is the remainder of the Librarium. Containing the Mortal Prophecies, it's held separate from the remainder of the Librarium, hovering on powerful gravity repulsors. The tall, dangling spire is segmented into thousands of pieces, each detachable from the whole in case of incident, where it can be destroyed. The shield, therefore, has a dual purpose. From all appearances it is to protect these prized and valued writings from outside attack. However, it is very deliberately kept up to the strength required to protect the Lower Librarium should the entire Mortal Prophecies spire be compromised and require destruction. The gravity repulsors are also powerful enough to place the tower in low orbit, as a redundancy in the protection protocols to ensure the spire's total destruction while keeping the tower and base utterly protected. This massive and powerful visual symbol is widely known across the Imperium, though very few know its actual content. Most believe it to be the largest repository of Imperial Law, something the Night Lords don't go to any great lengths to correct. The shape of the Night Lord's Librarium silhouetted by a rising sun is a symbol that many law enforcers of the Imperium wear in honour of the Night Lords. Those truly familiar with the Night Lords would know, however, that the planet of Nostramo has no sun near enough to produce that sort of effect.

Libra - Night Lords - Libran

Night Lords, of course! Dear Lord, yes, they definitely need to be involved [in the Siege of Macragge]. Because this is the point where I say Konrad Curze should fall. And not at the hands of a traitor brother or Chaos Champion. He should be slain by the assassin. Konrad Curze is the loyalist death of the Siege of Macragge. To ensure order, its champion must fall. The War Hounds, until then staying with the Imperial Fleet, launches drop pods to circumvent the Blood Angels while the Night Lords break from the Warp and add their strength to the besiegers. With the unorthodox methods of war common to the Raven Guard, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion, the Siege would be an interesting one. On one hand, you have the defenders. Stoic, stubborn, and held rigid with an immutable code of conduct. They are the ultimate warriors to stand at such a siege, not only prepared but downright proficient at defeating any conventional opponent. But on the other hand, you have the attackers, extremely unconventional. Maybe the Night Lords enter this battle with the Emperor. Curze and the Emperor fight side by side as they strike out towards the inner battle and Guilliman. This would be an ideal moment for the assassin's strike. When the two are out in the open upon its walls, where it can be hinted that the assassin's target might not have been the Primarch. It's shown in canon that when a Primarch falls in battle, his Legion pretty much falls apart over it. But what happens to a Legion whose Primarch falls, with the Emperor right there among them to assume command (maybe not literally, but more like the obvious authority figure to look to for guidance and direction) and the enemy still ahead of them? Well, the Night Lords are all very dedicated to their Primarch. In many ways, more than other Legions. With the divisiveness the Legion has, each 'type' of Night Lord considers their demeanour and outlook to be matches of Curze's and not the others. They're dedicated to Curze not just more than other Legions are dedicated to Curze, but more than their own brothers within the Legion. They might not be actually more dedicated, but more adamant and fervent with their dedication. So the Primarch falling could easily fracture the Legion down. They'd all follow the Emperor in, but it'd be a hollow victory for them at the end of it. A numbed out battle. Afterwards, the fractures of the Legion can be tended to in order to retain their post-Heresy dispostion. Divided by their organized tactics rather than fractured creeds and beliefs.

[Brother Abaqi]

I like what you've done with this idea. There were various ideas that bounced around in my head. Due to the amount already listed, though, many were addressed or forgotten as I continued to read. Here's what I have so far. 

 

First, do the White Scars fully or partially fall to Chaos? Do they still hold to the Imperial Truth? Do they do their own thing? It's not really specified and while I can see most of the Khanate simply being renegade as opposed to chaos worshipping, maybe have a few of the khans fall to it. Especially those in and around the Maelstrom so you could get that Huron analogue.

 

Second, for your Iron Hands champion... Angel Exterminatus has some named IH characters after the death of Mannus. One is an eccentric Techmarine named Frater Thamatica. His experiments are unsanctioned and dangerous in the extreme, and he's apparently really good at making Servitors. He's not in charge, though, and there's no proof that he was once favored by the primarch. It's just a suggestion since it seems to align with your ideas.

 

Alexis Pox and Sigismund... In keeping with the nurgle theme, they could be the Red Plague and Black Death? The virulence and strength of the Bubonic plague seems to match up particularly well to Sigismund, and Red Plague was another name for smallpox, the allusion there is obvious. Maybe the chapter icon of the crimson fist is one wrapped in bloody bandages? Or covered in blood from weeping sores?

 

Finally, I know the Codex is Guilliman's thing. Is the emperor going to, in any way, limit the size or composition of his loyalist legions in light of the Guilliman and El'Jonson heresies? Hell, the White Scars are still a rogue issue and could potentially spread sedition amongst the remaining loyalists if they chose to, using an idea very similar to the Tau, 'Unity' (which could be why they have that pesky temporary alliance with the xenos). Especially if they are still only renegade instead of worshipping the dark powers. Having another entire legion fall from the Emperor's banner could be a grave issue for the Imperium. And since we don't have Guilliman's little book restricting sizes, how exactly are some legions listed as 'over-strength'? What is the nominal number for size? 

[Conn Eremon]

The White Scars will do neither. They do not believe in the Imperial Truth, because they can see what is around them and there are no Imperial Heralds or the Iteratus Agnostica personnel around to violently enforce ignorance like in the Imperium. But, they have been betrayed by the Traitors as much as they have been by the Imperium. They are a true Renegade force. They do not worship Chaos and are as much an enemy of them and their ilk as the Imperials. But, like the Traitors, they are an eternal foe of the Imperium as well. You do bring up a valid point about Khans falling to Chaos in light of the fact that it is the Maelstrom. We've tried to deal with that in two ways.

 

One, the White Scars have at their disposal an STC that was found deep in the Maelstrom. Its a much more powerful Geller field that is too large and requires too much energy to be placed in a ship. In fact, it's only feasible use would be on worlds engulfed by the Warp. Placing a few of these at strategic points around a planet creates a Geller field almost like an additional atmospheric layer. However, the technology is rare and difficult to produce, The White Scars have enough of such machines to protect a handful or two of worlds. They use them on their Legion headquarter worlds deep in the Maelstrom to protect them from the powerful Warpstorm's corruptive influence. It's not a perfect system. The machines can fail. They can be sabotaged. They can be penetrated if by a powerful enough force. But neither the Imperium nor the Traitors are able to overwhelm all of them at the same time. They would need to if they intended to end the threat of the Khanate once and for all.

 

Secondly, they have in recent millennia isolated entire networks of the Imperial Routes, an Imperium-manufactured Webway system, surrounding their territories. Utilizing these, the average White Scar is less involved with the Warp than the average Legionary of the Imperium, though the network hubs surrounding Sol, Fenris and Prospero are far more extensive.

 

The remaining territories of the Khanate are just that. Territories. Each Khan of the Legion is lord of his own fiefdom, his own territory. The Legion takes its due, but otherwise each Khan rules and fights with impugnity, of his own volition. And yes, Khans do fall to Chaos. It's inevitable, regardless of their attempts lessen the Warp's influence. But the Legion has a very stubborn stance on such occurences. Once a Khan falls to Chaos, they are no longer of the Legion. They are bereft of brotherhood. They will find no succour in the Maelstrom. And when the Imperial and Traitor sharks begin to encircle them, smelling the blood in the water, the Legion will stand and watch as the corrupted Khans are devoured. What this means is that there will be no Chaos White Scar force. But, there can be Chaos White Scar occurences. Rare and short-lived, but certainly available if someone wants to take that idea and run with it.

 

However, while there can be a Badab War equivalent among the White Scars, since the entire region is going to be embroiled in constant warfare already it would lose its specialness. We've opted to take the spirit of the Badab War instead of the facts of location and happenstance. The analogue is instead an altercation that occurs between Iron Warriors bringing a Night Lords taskforce to heel.

 

Since there is a division between the Iron Hands Primarch and the Legion's inevitable fall, the Champion won't need to be favored by Ferrus Manus. Ferrus Manus, after all, died loyal to the Emperor at the beginning of the Guilliman Heresy. The Legion fell to chaos during the Mars-Terra Conflict that followed the Heresy. I've read Thamatica's exploits and he is an interesting character. I'm not sure if he is Champion material, though. But then, Iron Hands are always going to be difficult for me to grasp and imaginate on (totally a real phrase). So it could just be me. I think I'll leave the Iron Hands Champion alone for a while, unless someone is able to convince me otherwise. Come to think of it, I'd depicted the Iron Hands Champion as being a rogue artificial intelligence occupying the body of a fully mechanized Marine, whose own intelligence and personality are gone. So perhaps who it was isn't important, because who he becomes is an entirely new character not seen in canon. If I do go with Frater Thamatica, who is an Iron Father, right? Right? I kept getting confused. Anyway, if he is the Champion, a rogue Technopath, maybe the Technopaths are what the Iron Fathers became following their ascension/descension, depending on your viewpoint. Which would work. They're the spiritual advisors by right of their talent with machines and level of augmentation. Fitting that the Marines full mechanized and over-written by artificial intelligences be them. Their roles won't be all that different, as the Technopaths' purposes are to electronically track the passages of time and utilize that information to mathematically track potential routes that the future may take and, with such knowledge at hand, guide the Legion down them. Kudos, you just helped me flesh out a Legion-specific unit type!

 

Nice comparisons on the Imperial Fists, dude. I hadn't thought of that. Referring to the Crusader Host as the "Black Death" would really work well if done in a sidebar, from the viewpoint of someone whose knowledge of their assaulters is limited. The Black Death is what they name their foe. That, or simply using the descriptor 'black death' for the Crusader Host sounds beautiful.

 

As for Alexis Pox, I don't know. Current rendition of the Nurgle Fists is that it is Dorn and it is Sigismund. They have their own plague hive consciouses and they use them to animate and bond their individual forces, the Imperial Fists and the Crusader Host. However, when the Dornian Hive matures more fully and grows to its truest strength, it's able to detach portions of it more readily and without any danger of creating permanent separations like what occured with Sigismund and gang. We can keep Alexis Pox as one of Dorn's favored commanders, who regularly branches out on his own, though forever working under Dorn's direct gaze thanks to the Hive's ever-constant presence. So like with the Black Death, we can keep the Red Plague as a sometimes-used title or an oft-used descriptor.

 

As for icons, the Imperial Fists will all be variations of the same theme, the original gauntleted fist combined with the symbol of Nurge. My personal favorite is that fist opening up to become a grasping claw, the palm bearing three weeping, bleeding holes. A bloody, bandaged fist should fit with that.

 

As for Legion numbers, I'm at a bit of a loss. There won't be institutionalized restrictions in place. But I would not think that they would therefore expand undeterred without such. The threats they face are greater, more powerful, while they themselves are weaker. Even without such restrictions in place, even with rampant recruitment drives chugging on at maximum capacity, the Legions are going to be in a constant state of hurt. This would mean that the states they were in just prior to the Heresy was, in general, their high points. So the average Legion of that day, eighty thousand to a hundred thousand, would be the generally considered 'full-strength.' Some are going to be above that, such as the Raven Guard and Imperial Heralds who both reach near Ultramarine-grade numbers. Many are going to be below, such the Emperor's Children, who are brought right back down to their original lowest point that they had when Fulgrim was first found at the Heresy's start, and the Thousand Sons, whose purpose in aiding Magnus upon the Golden Throne prevents them from recuperating losses at a sufficient rate. And then there's going to be number fluctuations following the Heresy, such as the recent blow the Iron Warriors took and the War Hounds' currently invigorated recruitment drives in anticipation of a renewed Crusade. And some are going to be unknown, such as the Space Wolves and Imperial Heralds whose self-tasked duties remove them from the public eye.

 

You've brought up some good points and I hope that I have satisfactorily answered your questions.

[Brother Abaqi]

A couple more thoughts...

 

Officio Assassinorum and Sisters of Battle... You've made the Inquisition into the Investigatus. This organization would still probably have the three subdivisions (Chaos, Aliens, Criminals). You might be able to transpose the sisters to a specialized anti-Chaos and/or anti-Criminal arbites SWAT force. I don't know enough about the SoB to move the faith based bonuses to those grounded in the imperial truth, but I know a lot of their vehicles are better suited to anti-riot and urban combat, or used to be back in the 3e days. Maybe use Curze's matron connection to justify this angle.

 

And I will point out the Cold War for the justification of the assassins. CIA v. KGB. Or the early days of the FBI and their dealings with gangsters. The assassins are just another solution to dealing with problems that can't otherwise be worked out. Be it an upstart Chaos Apostate, a well entrenched underhive kingpin, or Ork Warboss, some enemies would be better removed by a single bullet than by squads of arbites being thrown into a meat grinder.

[Conn Eremon]

The Ordo's Hereticus and Malleus get twisted around in the Guilliman Heresy. Both the Investigatus and Iteratus Agnostica overlap in the Hereticus (and I'm using canon names as placeholders, they have no names in the GH because they are not actual internal organizations like in canon) area because both deal with them to a certain extent. You could say that the Iterators are a pre-emptive dissuasion while the Investigatus enforces the consequences. There is no Ordo Malleus, there are the Imperial Heralds, who have devoted themselves much the same as the Grey Knights have. They are not analogues, though. They're not a psyker legion, they're not incorruptible. They're very dedicated, specialized, they're numerous and they are willing to utilize certain technologies to give them an edge. The other one, the Ordo Xenos, currently has no comparison in the GH. Not that there won't be one, or shouldn't be one, just that one hasn't been developed by us in our discussions. As far as I recall.

 

As for the Sisters of Battle, we are keeping them as an extension of the Sisters of Silence. The actual Sisters of Battle won't exist, for obvious reasons in an atheistic Imperium. The Sisters of Silence will probably still focus on the handling of psykers. However, with the growth of psykers over the millennia, their presence will become more noted and distinctive. We haven't explored that through yet. Basically, I intend to come up with ways that anyone interested in our alternate universe could field a Sisters of Silence battle force as counts-as Sisters of Battle. Iconography and such would have to be changed, but we could still have a power-armoured female force.

 

As for Assassins, they are still present. Olisredan brought them up and we had a brief discussion on them. Presently, we are of the idea that they by and large remain as they do pre-Heresy and in canon. We haven't really developed them beyond describing how they and the Legions would interact, though.

[Brother Abaqi]

Another set of questions about the Iron Hands (IH in this refers to them, and not the Imperial Heralds. That name change will confuse the acronyms):

 

First: Are the Thousand Son marines (Unit, not chapter) being updated to fit with the new IH? If so, what will they be called?

 

I'm forseeing yes, but instead of soulbound armor they are true robotic units. Maybe marines that have completely replaced their flesh with bionics. The question, then, is why they lose their base intelligence and become the semi-mindless forms of the current Thousand Sons. I will use the same but different approach and assume that there was a mass upgrade attempt. The Omniscience, as you have made mention to earlier, claims that it can purge many of the IH of their weakness (aka flesh) and transform them into pure machines. But something obviously goes wrong. Maybe a scrap code virus (perhaps introduced by Tzeentch himself during the process) purges everything but basic functions from their minds. The number that are unable to participate, or participate and are truly upgraded is up to you. Your champion is probably among those that truly upgrade.

 

This leads to the next question, more for fluff than anything else: Do we still want aspiring sorcerers controlling these units? Or do we want to adapt this?

 

Maybe make them aspiring Warpsmiths? These new IH seem to mesh the old TS and IW so that would make the most sense in my head. They would have to be powered down a bit from the true warpsmiths, like maybe changing master of mechanisms to granting its unit feel no pain. And if we leave it as sorcerers, is Tzeentch blessing this legion with more psykers to compensate for this? It just struck me as odd that a unit not known for it's psykers would have so many to marshal these automatons around.

 

And finally: If the thousand son unit is dropped, what takes its place?

 

The biggest problem with the above idea is that it severely cuts into Necron territory. What would really distinguish between two forces of robot undead and robot marine?

[Conn Eremon]

We have the Tzeentchian Iron Hands (TIH? Also standing for traitors, while we got the LIH, Loyalist Imperial Heralds. Or just Imp. H, IH) unique units being twofold. One is the Machine Gift, where entire areas of the body switch to machine as a mutation. Appearance wise, it'll be the same. It'll be more like a hardening into metal than a suddenly filled with pistons and gears, though the machine aesthetic will be present partially. This is the basic path of ascendancy. The Chaos Spawn are those who lose themselves in the process. Visually, they'll be no different. They'll simply lose their intelligence, their sentience. They'll become nothing more than programmable automata, which is the closest we'll get to the canon Thousand Sons. The other is the living metal of Ferrus Manus' original hands, which now envelops totally Gabriel Santar. He can grant some of it to others, where it takes over a portion of them, which varies, like it had on their Primarch. This is a sign of favor, an inclusion to the exclusive ranks of Morlocks, the elites, the Champions, the Lords.

 

The Iron Hands will see the Necrons as an obscene grotesque of the pure machine ideal they strive for.

 

The biggest thing about the GH Iron Hands is that the Thousand Sons were with Tzeentch as master psykers. Not the Iron Hands. They are the master plotters, the master mutants, though the latter, if of the flesh, results in their "flesh is weak" attitude and extensive bionics. Though Iron Hands will have sorcerers they will not feature any prominently than in canon. Just like the BA aren't the berzerker WE, or the IF the bloated, gaseous DG or the SA the vocally rambunctious EC. We're exploring the different aspects of the Warp Gods, different approaches to their worship.

 

Edit: Also wanted to mention that your questions have been greatly appreciated.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Cormac Airt

[Conn Eremon]

Posting a somewhat bland of an update, sorry I don't have more. I'm involving myself in the Liber Astartes Campaign, which means even less time to explore the Guilliman Heresy. But, I wanted people to realize that I'm still around and still kicking around ideas (and collating Salamander fluff).

 

For the past week, I've been thinking more about how much better our Imperium is following the Heresy. There is no winner in the Horus Heresy. The Imperium merely survives it. However, the Imperium clearly wins the Guilliman Heresy. Despite it being a bigger, grander war. An actual war rather than a relatively brief insurgency and attempted coup. So I think we need to shake things up some. What we have is good but I think we need to keep ourselves aware of the grand sweep of things, which I'm writing here so I'll remember it for later extrapolation. Namely, I think the Imperium should be losing and the attempt to kill Guilliman is, essentially, their last chance at surviving. Obviously Ultramar is on the side of Guilliman, but how big is Ultramar? Five hundred worlds, in canon. But this is his Heresy. Oh, he's going to be making it bigger. Alongside the Khan's own secession and swathe of worlds, the entire Ultima Segmentum goes dark to the Imperium, pretty much overnight. When the Heresy sparks off and Guilliman is clearly and openly in opposition to the Imperium, the entire Ultima Segmentum sides with him. Very few worlds stay loyal to the Imperium in there, and those that do are primarily Loyalist Legion homeworlds and those conquered, with closely maintained ties, by those Loyalist Legions. Eventually the Khan makes his personal slice a massive chunk of Ultima Segmentum, but by and large he takes them from Guilliman's supporters.

 

The Lion, on the other hand, is able to put the loyalties of Segmentum Obscurus and Pacificus in doubt. It's largely his home turf and, with the state of war going on, it leaves the Imperium with Segmentum Solar as their only devoted Segmentum. Within the first two, three years, the Imperium is knocked down to a tenth of their former size, and that small piece is being pierced through by the Traitors nonstop. Sure, Imperial forces are engaged through out the Galaxy but only within Segmentum Solar is the Imperium's strength sound. The invasion of Terra, led by the Lion, shatters that strength. The Imperium is wounded mortally. The Emperor lives, Terra stands and one of the two Warmasters has been vanquished. But the other Warmaster stands in a position of far greater strength and has taken the stance of sitting back and picking off the Imperium's few remaining worlds until the Emperor is stuck facing essentially his entire Imperium, leading his ragtag group of rebels against the new Emperor of Man. Guilliman has won and it is just a matter of mopping up what has survived.

 

The Emperor doesn't want that to happen. His absence has let things fall into ruin too far and he now sees the error of his ways. The Imperium, and the fate of Mankind, is very close to being in the hands of Chaos and they are almost to the point where nothing can be done to prevent it. So he puts himself back into the game. He rallies the surviving Legions to him and gives them their orders. He collects his few remaining Imperial forces to him. He gathers them all into a single, unified force. All around him, the Imperium falls. Their military support stripped from them, the last remaining Imperial worlds outside of Segmentum Solar fall (again, outside of Legion homeworlds (except those already destined to fall such as Baal) and such. Basically, outside of the small pockets of still-Imperial the loyalist Legions are able to maintain deep in enemy territory. Not all, but 99% of all) to the growing Ultramar Empire, nearly the size of the now former Imperium. It is into the heart of Ultramar that the Emperor casts his spear. With speed and fury, the Emperor knows he will be beaten unless he can take Macragge and kill Guilliman quickly. Though over quickly, the ferocity with which the final battles were fought were so great that the death tallies for both sides exceeded those over the course of the rest of the war up to that point.

 

Finally, Macragge falls. The Emperor survives and the Warmaster dies. Returning to Terra, the Emperor is at this time the master of none. His Imperium is in ruins, humanity in no different a situation as they were before his Great Crusade. He needs another one, to reclaim his worlds and drive back the remaining forces of Chaos. To do that, he must regain the support of the Mechanicum, lost during the Heresy by their inactivity. Though suffering still, having just survived a war that all but ended them, the Mars-Terra Conflict begins. It is merely the first of thousands of years of nonstop wars the Imperium must endure. The Great Expedition reconquers the Imperium of Man and exiles the surviving Traitors. But the Imperium is never given a chance to take a breath, to rebuild. The Emperor lives and his plans for Mankind continue to fruition. But Humanity has not won. It is still barely surviving. The scars of the Heresy will never heal. They will never be allowed to. They will be opened anew again and again by incessant wars and threats. The Necrons awaken, reconquer their Empire. The Omega Legion's High Lords rally the surviving Traitors to thrash the Imperium again and again. The proficiency and prolificacy of Imperial tech is set back for thousands of years thanks to the devastating wars between the Auretians and the Martians. The Khanate operates out of an headquarter worlds impossible to track down and obliterate, providing safe harbor for them to conquer and raid with abandon. Secessions run rampant, a threat to the Imperium that will never be fully stamped out. And in the 41st Millennium, more dangers arrive. From the long dead heart of Ultramar comes first the Tau, with their advanced technologies and arrogant expansions, and second the Tyranids, extra-galactic xenos that suckle from what little life remains in that cold zone of space, gathering strength to strike deep into the heart of the Imperium.

[Olis]

A belated apology is in order, I believe, for leaving the project in limbo for so many months. To Cormac and my brothers still interested in following this, I'm sorry to do that to you and rest assured I shall spend time in the pain glove for it. Now then, I believe the imperial Fists are on my slate of things to do, iirc. 

 

Also, having digested more BL material since the last time I was here, I will hopefully be able to bring more ideas to the table in the near future. Long live the Guilliman Heresy, brothers. ;)

Edited October 14, 2013 by Olisredan

[Wulfkry]

Russ's balls... IT LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Conn Eremon]

Damn right it does, Wulfkry. Damn right it does.

 

Looks like I need to stop lying about collating Salamander fluff and actually do it.

 

God damn, but I am excited.