The Guilliman Heresy

[Olis]

Well, the thing about Legions vs Chapters is, if you're going to realistically dart all over the galaxy putting out the various fires Astartes are supposed to put out, either you use the Chapter system, OR you have to split your Legions up into Chapter-ish sized forces just to cover everything.

 

Well, considering the Codex Astartes doesn't exist like it does in the canon-universe, there's no stopping having roving task forces of mixed units, such as a smattering of regiments from the Imperial Army, a Legion contingent (or an amalgamation or two or more) and maybe a Technocracy cohort all fighting under the ranking officer present (chances are that the astartes would be deferred to).

 

For example:

 

The Fourth Gemmellaian Belt Army

Imperial Army: 

23rd Gemmellaian Risers

44th Gemmellaian Tank Battallion

122nd Jovian Grenadiers

+ Attendant Fleet elements

 

Legiones Astartes:

4th, 24th and 73rd companies of the Raven Guard

12th Company of the War Hounds

+ Attendant Astartes Vessels

 

Auretian Technocracy:

11 Tech-assassins

40 Tech-Army Stalkers [Knight/Warhound equivalents]

2 Tech-Army Colossi [Titan equivalents, Reaver size or larger]

1 Demi-Cohort of Auretian Shock Troops

 

 

Or, possibly, anything smaller/larger that fits the bill. The possibilities are almost endless.

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, Olisredan has the right of it, but it is notable that what Wade suggests for Legions is the case here.

 

The thing that separates the Codex from our Legions is that it codifies a formalized breakdown that is enforced at the earliest point.

 

With our Legions, the transition occurs informally as a natural progression over time.

 

The end result is that in both cases you end up with the Astartes being divided into a vast amount of autonomous, individualized, localized and roughly Chapter-sized groupings.

 

Does the slower progress to reach that point harm our Imperium? Very likely it does, yes. That is good, to have the Legiones Astartes go through a period where they are ill-equipped for their new roles in life. It's good to have a counter within the Imperium to offset its improved position with the Emperor still being alive and well (though we have kept his involvement down).

 

It is also notable that the Codex is around in this alternate universe. It just doesn't exist to protect the Imperium, but to bring about its destruction. The moniker given to the sons of Guilliman is given by the Imperium, and the XIII Legion exists in name only. Instead, it exists as a wide range of Chapter-based warbands, banding together for 'Omega Incursions' but otherwise existing pretty much like carnival mirror reflections of canon Ultramarines Successor Chapters. And this system very much works in their favor.

[Wade Garrett]

Something else I'd like to ask about is the status of the Imperial Truth in this alt-verse.

 

Let me explain.

 

In canon, while atheism was the official policy, in practice this was more like a loose guideline IF you were an influential faction like the Mechanicum or an Astartes Legion (here I'm thinking of the White Scars and their Path of Heaven, the mysticism of the Thousand Sons, the shamanistic creed of the Space Wolves, and the Promethean Cult of the Salamanders, not so much Lorgar and the XVII.)

 

Now, the Mechanicum is "cured" of its Omnissiah worship after schisming and merging with the Technocracy, and two of those Legions become the lost and the damned, but that still leaves two very powerful and respected factions who sort of missed the boat on that whole "rational, secular cosmos" thing.

 

Possibly three, depending on how closely connected Fulgrim's boys are to the eldar.

 

Which could be a problem, since the XVII seem to have gone back to their pre-Primarch ways as the Iconoclasts.

 

(Hmmm...maybe post Pilgrimage they actually change the name to the Iconoclasts? They don't exactly bear the Word anymore...)

 

Meanwhile, even the canon Ecclesiarchy struggles to enforce an orthodoxy throughout the Imperium.

 

Sure, the closer you get to Terra and Ophelia VII, the more "mainline" beliefs become, but there are thousands of planets where "Okay, your chief deity? He's/She/It is called the Emperor now. PAY YOUR TITHES!" is as far as it goes.

 

Of course, the GH Imperium's Adeptus Agnostica does have the Webway, meaning their transport and communication capabilities aren't as limited as the Ecclesiarchy's.

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Olis]

Something else I'd like to ask about is the status of the Imperial Truth in this alt-verse.

 

Let me explain.

 

In canon, while atheism was the official policy, in practice this was more like a loose guideline IF you were an influential faction like the Mechanicum or an Astartes Legion (here I'm thinking of the White Scars and their Path of Heaven, the mysticism of the Thousand Sons, the shamanistic creed of the Space Wolves, and the Promethean Cult of the Salamanders, not so much Lorgar and the XVII.)

 

Now, the Mechanicum is "cured" of its Omnissiah worship after schisming and merging with the Technocracy, and two of those Legions become the lost and the damned, but that still leaves two very powerful and respected factions who sort of missed the boat on that whole "rational, secular cosmos" thing.

 

Hmm. With the Thousand Sons, the mysticism (as I interpreted it) was simply old methods of using sorcerous powers, rather than a belief in the supernatural (which the Imperial Truth sought to stifle and/or replace). What with the warp being an integral part of the warhammer universe, I think Magnus' drive to learn and rationalise (and by extension the Thousand Sons Legion, too) counteracts any 'spiritual' leanings they might harbour. Of course, this particular aspect of this subject can always be elaborated on later (or refined, or retconned).

 

Now for the Space Wolves. In this universe Fenris is no longer a Space Viking world, but something more akin to Asgard from the recent Thor movies spliced with a generous strand of Necromunda. It might not be too much of a stretch to simply sit down and say that this apparent shamanism from canon just does not exist in this alt-verse. What with the Legion leaning much so toward gang-related roots (perhaps it is similar in aspect to Cthonian influences in the Luna Wolves, or perhaps not), the need for oldie worldie references falls away. 

 

Possibly three, depending on how closely connected Fulgrim's boys are to the eldar.

 

Now there's a thought. Cormac, just how close are the bonds between the pro-human Eldar and the Third Legion?

 

Which could be a problem, since the XVII seem to have gone back to their pre-Primarch ways as the Iconoclasts.

 

(Hmmm...maybe post Pilgrimage they actually change the name to the Iconoclasts? They don't exactly bear the Word anymore...)

 

I hadn't considered this. Are they Imperial Heralds, the messengers of doom for the imperium, or are they the Iconoclasts, those that seek to tear down anything anathema to the Imperial Truth? Hmm....

 

Meanwhile, even the canon Ecclesiarchy struggles to enforce an orthodoxy throughout the Imperium.

 

Sure, the closer you get to Terra and Ophelia VII, the more "mainline" beliefs become, but there are thousands of planets where "Okay, your chief deity? He's/She/It is called the Emperor now. PAY YOUR TITHES!" is as far as it goes.

 

Of course, the GH Imperium's Adeptus Agnostica does have the Webway, meaning their transport and communication capabilities aren't as limited as the Ecclesiarchy's.

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

I think the possibility of cults and rogue religions (an evil-twin Imperial Creed, anyone?) existing in the galaxy of the GH universe is entirely plausible, even if Imperial policy is to trample it under foot until only dust remains. It's certainly an added hazard for later periods in the GH-Imperium's lifetime.

 

 

 

Also, in regard to the 'spread-too-thin' sentiment: It's worth exploring. Just what would be an official cap for astartes to expand their numbers and what would facilitate the decision? This would then lead towards just exactly how thinly spread Imperial forces are in the galaxy. Perhaps some sort of crisis involving excess numbers of astartes. Gene-seed degradation, maybe? Lack of gene-seed storage? Political machinations by a suitably powerful individual or group in the Imperium - up to and including the Emperor Himself?

[Conn Eremon]

Something else I'd like to ask about is the status of the Imperial Truth in this alt-verse.

 

Let me explain.

 

In canon, while atheism was the official policy, in practice this was more like a loose guideline IF you were an influential faction like the Mechanicum or an Astartes Legion (here I'm thinking of the White Scars and their Path of Heaven, the mysticism of the Thousand Sons, the shamanistic creed of the Space Wolves, and the Promethean Cult of the Salamanders, not so much Lorgar and the XVII.)

 

Now, the Mechanicum is "cured" of its Omnissiah worship after schisming and merging with the Technocracy, and two of those Legions become the lost and the damned, but that still leaves two very powerful and respected factions who sort of missed the boat on that whole "rational, secular cosmos" thing.

Zero, actually. The Thousand Sons might retain their mysticism, but they are very much a sidelined Legion. Their Primarch is Thronebound, and their continued existence is almost exclusively dedicated to the upkeep of said Throne and Webway System. The Space Wolves are far less restricted, but they are also far less defined by the shamanistic creeds of canon. Their home world of Fenris is an advanced Hive World that has more in common with Nostramo than canon Fenris.

 

Possibly three, depending on how closely connected Fulgrim's boys are to the eldar.

I've always imagined it as a watchdog role. They're best suited due to their prior dealings (see Fulgrim), and I imagine that they are the most likely to be accepted by the Eldar as someone to ally with, but ultimately their goal is to ensure the ongoing machinations of the xenos do not interfere with Humanity's ascendancy. And really, it says a lot that the group they are so aligned with is the fatalistic one.

 

Which could be a problem, since the XVII seem to have gone back to their pre-Primarch ways as the Iconoclasts.

 

(Hmmm...maybe post Pilgrimage they actually change the name to the Iconoclasts? They don't exactly bear the Word anymore...)

As a personal preference, I'm rather fond of their current status as returning to their former Terran Legion name of Imperial Heralds.

 

Meanwhile, even the canon Ecclesiarchy struggles to enforce an orthodoxy throughout the Imperium.

 

Sure, the closer you get to Terra and Ophelia VII, the more "mainline" beliefs become, but there are thousands of planets where "Okay, your chief deity? He's/She/It is called the Emperor now. PAY YOUR TITHES!" is as far as it goes.

 

Of course, the GH Imperium's Adeptus Agnostica does have the Webway, meaning their transport and communication capabilities aren't as limited as the Ecclesiarchy's.

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

I honestly don't think we've really spent too much time discussing this, or at least I can't recall what any conclusions were. I know we have the Imperial Truth of the Great Crusade continue to be enforced.

 

But now that you bring it up . . . Why can't our Agnostica have as much trouble as the Ecclesiarchy in enforcing their beliefs? Well, I worded that wrong. What I mean is, what about having that struggle you mention copied over? "Okay, your chief deity? He/She/It is actually the Emperor, but your inability to comprehend his sublime awesomeness makes you mistake him for a god. Just whatever, PAY YOUR TITHES." This has the unfortunate habit of often shifting people's beliefs without actually ridding them of religion, but better to worship the Emperor out of ignorance than worship darker powers out of foolishness. And you'd have Agnosticians (ugh) with wildly varying tolerances, from "Hey, we found a world that symbolizes the Emperor with an ancient snake deity. LEAVE EVERY TENTH ALIVE WHILE YOU BURN THE WORLD TO ASH, THEN LEAVE THEM TO DIE OF STARVATION AND THIRST ON THEIR NOW BARREN WORLD" to "Hey, we found a collection of worlds that worship a neo-greek pantheon. Hey, the silly heathens made Zyuus look like the Emperor, close enough."

Edited July 18, 2014 by Cormac Airt

[Conn Eremon]

I think we should avoid a formalized "cap" on Legion numbers in the same way as the Codex Astartes does. As my personal opinion, I think the continued difficulties of keeping the Imperium intact is enough to provide a limit to their over-all sizes, and prevent the Legions from simply expanding and expanding until they're many times their former Great Crusade sizes.

 

But mostly because I see a formalized cap having two consequences I'd rather avoid.

 

One, it homogenizes the Legions over time, much like the structure of Space Marine Chapters are in canon. As it is now, we have Legions that are wildly different from each other in size and scope. While that does mean that some are larger than others, I think it adds more character. Like how our Raven Guard Legion is large enough that even though it is made up of small, autonomous units it still requires a split command structure, including two separate Legion Commanders. The loyalist Dark Angels (am I opening a can of worms if I mention that we still haven't given them a name? Or have we, and I forgot?) are very small, as they refuse to create new Chapters/Companies/Wings etc until they have destroyed a traitorous equivalent. They won't reform the 23rd Chapter until they have eradicated the 23rd Chapter, for instance.

 

Second, it dampens fluctuations. You have Chapters increasing their strength to meet difficult targets or to survive, and you can have them be completely destroyed, but the over-all spread is kept pretty close to Codex standard. The same would apply to the Legions if it was codified as well. But I want to see these fluctuations go wildly in different directions, specifically to show how the Legions cope with the new Imperium.

 

But that said, there's room for politics and other issues to temporarily impact the Legions in this way.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Cormac Airt

[Wade Garrett]

How about "The Knights Errant" for Luther's Legion?

 

;)

[Olis]

I can go with the 'no-cap' route. I suppose we can rely on the Omega Legion and the beefed up foes of mankind to bring about the spread too thin feeling. Should be easy enough.

[Conn Eremon]

How about "The Knights Errant" for Luther's Legion?

 

;)

I am using the Knights Errant for my Dark Angels successor DIY (the knights errant and knights justiciar being the Chapter's equivalent to the Ravenwing and Deathwing), and I have a tendency to dismiss names or ideas I am already using elsewhere so that I don't come across as a mary sue writer.

 

But it is a nice name, so if Olisredan likes it then sure. It's a moot point if we do already have a name though.

 

@Olisredan: Precisely my thoughts.

[Wade Garrett]

I've been imagining Hive Fenris as something like New Orleans:

 

Lawless, riddled with peculiar superstitions and traditions, and prone to flooding because someone built it waaay below sea level. ;)

 

Although that may be because I've only skimmed the main thread.

 

Regarding "Agnosticans"...why not call them and their agents "iterators", just like the folks in charge of reshaping cultures during the Great Crusade? ("iconoclasts" might be a derogatory nickname their detractors label them with)

 

After all, the Imperial Creed had missionaries, not Ecclesiarchians.

 

And give them Latin civilian ranks (ex prefect) as opposed to the Ecclesiarchy's bishops, cardinals, etc.

 

As far as a rogue Imperial Creed goes, that sounds like something that would pop up in Khanate space.

 

Or possibly there could even be some kind of mass migration there, as Lorgar's legion cracks down ruthlessly on the faith they nurtured. (I'm imagining a cross between Flight of the Eisenstein and the Puritan settlers leaving England. If the Puritans were chased by giant pyromaniacs with axe-rakes.)

 

The canonical Emperor cult survived its founders jumping to devil worship AND and Imperium that was out to get them, if nothing else they are definitely harder to get rid of than a cockroach on steroids.

 

Finally:

The whole business with Lorgar hunting Kor Phaeron and the Imperial Heralds trying to keep anyone from learning about the corruption that had set in at their heart is giving me a very "Inner Circle hunts the Fallen" vibe.

 

Now, obviously Luther's knights don't have that going on, from what I've read, they seem quite open about their eternal search and destroy mission against the Lion.

 

The Heralds have that "Nothing at all happened on the Pilgrimage. First Captain Kor Phaeron, who was TOTALLY LOYAL, left to get a carton of milk and forgot his wallet, and the Primarch has been looking for him ever since. To prevent him getting embarassed at the checkout line."

 

And then they burn all the evidence otherwise, store the ashes in a box, and hide the box in a warehouse full of hundreds of identical boxes at the bottom of the ocean.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Wade Garrett

[Olis]

I've been imagining Hive Fenris as something like New Orleans:

 

Lawless, riddled with peculiar superstitions and traditions, and prone to flooding because someone built it waaay below sea level.

 

Although that may be because I've only skimmed the main thread.

 

A little bit of flooding never hurt no-one... 

 

But seriously, flooded underhive/sub-hive levels sounds like a great idea. The superstitions and traditions would probably be related to the gangs somehow, considering the better off members of Fenrisian society would likely live higher up (just like traditional hive structures) and maybe nearer the surface of the hive city.

 

Regarding "Agnosticans"...why not call them and their agents "iterators", just like the folks in charge of reshaping cultures during the Great Crusade? ("iconoclasts" might be a derogatory nickname their detractors label them with)

 

After all, the Imperial Creed had missionaries, not Ecclesiarchians.

 

And give them Latin civilian ranks (ex prefect) as opposed to the Ecclesiarchy's bishops, cardinals, etc.

 

Iterator Prefect. I think you might be onto something, Wade.

 

As far as a rogue Imperial Creed goes, that sounds like something that would pop up in Khanate space.

 

Or possibly there could even be some kind of mass migration there, as Lorgar's legion cracks down ruthlessly on the faith they nurtured. (I'm imagining a cross between Flight of the Eisenstein and the Puritan settlers leaving England. If the Puritans were chased by giant pyromaniacs with axe-rakes.)

 

The canonical Emperor cult survived its founders jumping to devil worship AND and Imperium that was out to get them, if nothing else they are definitely harder to get rid of than a cockroach on steroids.

 

I like that idea. Especially the migration. It could give the Khanate a new lease of life with fresh refugees fleeing to them by the million.

 

Finally:

The whole business with Lorgar hunting Kor Phaeron and the Imperial Heralds trying to keep anyone from learning about the corruption that had set in at their heart is giving me a very "Inner Circle hunts the Fallen" vibe.

 

Now, obviously Luther's knights don't have that going on, from what I've read, they seem quite open about their eternal search and destroy mission against the Lion.

 

The Heralds have that "Nothing at all happened on the Pilgrimage. First Captain Kor Phaeron, who was TOTALLY LOYAL, left to get a carton of milk and forgot his wallet, and the Primarch has been looking for him ever since. To prevent him getting embarassed at the checkout line."

 

And then they burn all the evidence otherwise, store the ashes in a box, and hide the box in a warehouse full of hundreds of identical boxes at the bottom of the ocean.

 

Oh yes, Lorgar's hunt is similar indeed but instead of a multitude of marines scattered across time and space, it's a manhunt for one individual. He is the reminder that they could have fallen from grace and embraced the darkness, soothing as it was. He was a schemer that nearly ruined them, their honour, integrity and their reputation. Is a lifetime (well, millennia of Legion service) good enough to erase or mitigate this flaw, this potential to fall? I'm under the impression that answer would be 'no' coming from the lips of a Herald.

[Wade Garrett]

So the Heralds have already "purged" any fellow travelers Kor might have had in their ranks before and after Roboute's Rebellion...hmmm.

 

Thought. I know Cormac mentioned an Imperial Herald Hierarch falling to Chaos and thus ruining an important Crusade thousands of years after the Heresy.

 

What if the super-secret "I couldn't possibly comment" club Heralds equivalent of the Inner Circle isn't dedicated to the hunt for Kor, but to keeping his ideals alive?

 

Now, they'd be only a fraction of a percentage of the Legion overall, and most of the time would actively avoid higher rank (and the increased scrutiny that comes with it) but whenever they do take a hand......

Edited July 19, 2014 by Wade Garrett

[Conn Eremon]

I believe the Hunt is rather short lived, as both Lorgar and Kor Phaeron are last seen racing into an Eldar Webway on the outskirts of Khanate territory a couple thousand years after the Heresy. One fleeing and the other giving chase.

 

But the idea of a traitor lodge does have its merit. It would have to be very, very good at hiding for about eight thousand years, considering this is a Legion of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, Red Hunters and rarely-psyker Grey Knights. I am not sure how to go about it at the moment, but I do like the idea.

[Wade Garrett]

Quis ipso custodiet custodes, Cormac. Quis ipso custodiet custodes...

[Olis]

Do you mean 'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes'? To you I say the Investigatus. Our own Inquisition-equivalent agency with it's own style of organisation (as i see it at least). Maybe think cyber-noir rather than the traditional canon representation of Inquisitors.

[Quixus]

Quis custodiet custodes custodium?

[Wade Garrett]

Who watches the watchers of the watchers who watch the watchmen... :cuss High Gothic.

 

And this is a considerable side track from possible traitors within the ranks of the daemonhunters, but can Guilliman Heresy finally give us a loyalist Fabius Bile?

 

Possibly one that is interred within a Dreadnaught post Heresy to preserve his scientific expertise, and becomes one of the guiding lights to the Hierarch project?

 

Mainly because the idea of an Emperor's Children Contemptor Dreadnaught waving its arms dramatically while vox blasting "GENTLEMEN! BEHOLD WHAT SCIENCE HAS WROUGHT!" greatly amuses me.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Wade Garrett

[Conn Eremon]

I believe we have kept those individuals who were the most corrupted of the canon traitor Legions as such here. Individuals like Kor Phaeron, Erebus, Typhon and the Abaddon who totally reminds me of Vegeta's desire to be Super Saiyan in the Abridged series (I wanta! IwantaIwantaIwanta!).

 

I don't quite recall, but I believe Fabius Bile is among that number. The logic being that things proceed pretty much as canon all the way up to the Laer sword for the IIIrd, and for individuals like Fabius Bile maybe even further.

 

I think we have him aiding the Traitors, being the bridge that brings the genecraft that continued in the Imperium to the Legiones Astartes Traitoris.

 

But I would be the first to admit that I might be misremembering.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Cormac Airt

[Wade Garrett]

Well, in Betrayer Erebus does list Fabius along with Typhon as "the coven of intelligent like minded souls guiding the Primarchs".

 

But that doesn't exactly gibe with what we see of him in Fulgrim, where he begins (even in his internal monologue) as this affable, soft spoken Apothecary who believes he can improve the III by studying the laer.

 

He gets creepier as the novel goes on, although I don't recall an explanation given as to why...he wasn't at the laer temple with Fulgrim, Kaesoron, and the rest, although I suppose he might have caught the crazy poking around in Chaos tainted xenos corpses.

 

And by Angel Exterminatus it's full blown "VITH ZEE POWER OF ZHEE NAZI SCIENCE I VILL CREATE ZHEE UBERMENSCHTEN! LIFF, MY CREATION! LIFF!"

Edited July 20, 2014 by Wade Garrett

[Conn Eremon]

It would perhaps depend on how Bile progresses with the manner in which the Laer is handled in this version. Again, I might be misremembering it, but I believe Fulgrim has a different response to the challenge of taking Laer. Essentially, Fulgrim proves his point with precision orbital bombardment, rather than with massed invasion.

 

I could still see Bile descending to the world and gaining access to the xenos dead, though. But it might end up differently for him if he lacks the firsthand accounts of the adaptability of the Laer biology. He might not be so involved, or come to the same conclusions about his own work.

 

I don't know, the potential is there for a loyalist Bile, in which case I could see him spearheading the initial expansion on Astartes genecraft. But I am not a fan of keeping Heresy/Crusade characters for too long afterwards. It happens, but I am not so fond of it. Bjorn is really the only exception I like, and a Bjorn-style Bile would be completely useless for apothecary work after a couple millennial anyways. I like what AD-B is doing with Sigismund, for instance.

[Olis]

Here's a question: How many canon-traitors have we got staying loyalist in this universe? Barring the primarchs, of course. 

[fox2013]

so Khârn is loyal? if i remember from what i read, he wanted to understand angron, so i guess he just follow what he wanted.

 

from what i've read of this thread.

 

ahriman, typhus, Khârn?, and "little horus"  are confirmed loyal so far, with the latter returning to the emperor later.

 

wait eliphas died, did he die loyal or chaos?

 

this is what i understand so far, do lwt me know if i'm wrong or missing some

[fox2013]

so was it bjorn who was the one-armed spacewolf holding russ?

 

if so, does he replace it with a mechanical arm, or left there as a mark of his failure?( in his mind) 

[Conn Eremon]

I believe it was Bjorn, yes. Not sure what happens to him afterwards.

 

As for Olisredan's question, here are all the primary traitors that I can think of off the top of my head:

 

Abaddon: Traitor and warlord of the Justaerin and Catulan Reavers, of the Omega Legion.

 

Horus Aximand: Former battle-brother of Abaddon, returned to Imperial fold during the Heresy. Loyal.

 

Ahriman: Technically loyal to the Emperor and Magnus, exiled for sabotaging a ritual to save the Emperor.

 

Typhon: Technically a traitor, but is remembered as a hero of the Imperium following his death

 

Erebus: Pretty much same as canon, but is killed by Lorgar when he and Kor Phaeron attempt to sway their Primarch to the ways of Chaos.

 

Kor Phaeron: Pretty much same as canon, only now he's gotta do Erebus' job in corrupting everybody. He doesn't do so well.

 

Khârn: Loyal. Single-handedly convinced Angron to remain loyal to the Emperor, which resulted in his being single handed. Augmented with a brass bionic to replace his arm, beautifully sculpted to match the musculature of said replaced arm.

 

Lucius: Can't recall. Loyal, I guess?

[fox2013]

i haven't seen anything for lucius, so maybe its up for debate? 1 side thinks he's a traitor, the other a loyalist. 

thanks on clearing up the point with those guys. now i was thinking of a "sanguinor" equivalent and i think the spacewolves should have it.

i have the idea for the name. i call him the " spirit of fenris"  basically a large white wulfen, that appears duering the greatest of the spacewolve's battles. few ever see him, 1 painted a picture of him.

 

http://machinistofpunk.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/underworld.jpg

thats just an idea i had, but i would love to see what u guys do.