The Guilliman Heresy

[Conn Eremon]

Providing something that is a throwback to Fenris' more barbaric days isn't without merit, but I believe we have the Sanguinor represent those 'pure' aspects of Sanguinius that is purged from him when he finally, yet unwillingly, becomes Khorne's through and through.

 

But as I say it, I think that might have been something discussed but never settled on. I'm not sure, I think I need to really read through these threads again myself. 

[Olis]

Did we ever discuss the Wulfen thing? Considering this project is now years old, I have to pause for thought more often than I should when considering questions like that. For the record (barring any possible previous thoughts on the matter), I think the Wulfen thing should have a similar influence over the GH-Verse Space Wolves as it does with Cnon Space Wolves.  

[Conn Eremon]

First off, I agree in principle. But I am going to bring up one of my crazy conspiracy theories, just to toss it out there.

 

I had posted a theory a while back on my thoughts for Fenris/Russ/Gene-Seed/etc that I still think is the most believable.

First off, Fenris was settled long before the Emperor was a thing, and in no way was 'designed as a Legion recruitment world.' The bit about there being no wolves on Fenris is because none were brought over with the settlers, and none had evolved naturally on the world prior to settlement. The settlers themselves became the wolves, thanks to genetic tampering designed to aid the settlers in adapting to this world. It went rampant, they lost control, and instead adapted far more than they had intended.

But it worked with enough people to make Fenris a successful settlement, but with enough failures to create an abundant population of wolves. Every single Fenrisian is a product of that genetic tampering, which has since stabilized.

But doesn't that sound familiar? Doesn't it sound remarkably similar to the Space Wolves' gene-seed itself? I don't see that as pure coincidence, that Russ happened to land on a world inhabited by a people similar to the Legion he will eventually claim. That makes no sense, but Occam's Razor leads us to the point of the theory. It is similar to aspects of the Space Wolves' gene-seed because it is the source of those aspects, not because they just happened to be similar.

For the longest time, Space Wolf gene-seed, unique to the Chapter, was two separate things come together. The gene-seed itself, and the Canis Helix. It is the latter that lends the Legion and Chapter those wolf-like traits, and runs the risk of degenerating into a wolf. That is remarkably similar to what we now know of Fenris' ancient past, and therefore is probably a product of it. The Canis Helix is therefore a relic of the Dark Age of Technology, an ancient piece of biotech taken from those lost days of initial settlement. From then on, everything clicks into place.

Why was there no problem with the Terrans? There was no Canis Helix at the time. When it was introduced, the recruitment from then on was exclusively Fenrisian.

Why were Fenrisians best suited? Because their genetics already has been affected by it, or something rather similar, decreasing the potential for rejection or overly rapid change.

Why didn't it work with the Wolf Brothers? Because they did not recruit from Fenris, but continued to use the Canis Helix.

Why don't they give up on the Canis Helix then? Same reason the Ultramarines won't give up on the Codex Astartes, or the Blood Angels their blood rituals, or the Dark Angels their secresy.

Now, given that, as I still believe it to be the most accurate possibility until told otherwise by BL or FW, and applying it to our Guilliman Heresy . . .

 

Why would Russ make the same decision? Fenris developed differently, and while our Russ ushers in a call of the wild renaissance of sorts, would he make it such a requirement? Would he even have access to it, as my theory suggests he somehow must have?

 

Or do you all think my theory is bogus?

 

To be clear, I have no problem keeping the Wulfen. I will be using that theory to explain the absence of the Wulfen in the Corax Coup.

[Olis]

I think the theory - ancient Terra/Dark Age of Technology biotech - is a fine logical abduction with little else to contest it. One question is: Do we affect the population the same way in our universe? (I'm inclined to say yes if we follow the biotech theory.)

 

Another would be: How exactly does an Asgardian hive world adapt/treat Fenrisian Wolves and what would their take be on wulfen? Considering our root culture is not tribal but gangland, I think we need to view this through a cyberpunk lense. Would particularly vicious individuals keep them as pets in any capacity (or even could they)? Would some seek to hybridise themselves with wulfen traits? It's likely gangs would use the Fenrisian Wolf as a motif in a wild variety of combinations, possibly even influencing how the Legion organises itself when Russ takes the lead.

[Conn Eremon]

I think the theory - ancient Terra/Dark Age of Technology biotech - is a fine logical abduction with little else to contest it. One question is: Do we affect the population the same way in our universe? (I'm inclined to say yes if we follow the biotech theory.)

I'm generally of the preference that we have most of our alternate lore spawn from specific, singular points of change from canon.

 

Now, our Fenris is an entirely different beast from canon. It is civilized (in-universe critics may disagree). The land has been shackled and overcome. In canon, humanity . . . simply inserted itself into the natural order of this world. They let the world shape them. Which, I feel, is the thematic point behind there being no wolves in Fenris. Fenris shaped them completely. Molded them into something new, something dangerous. Our Fenrisians molded the world into something new.

 

If we hold to that theory, what better point in time to have that little butterfly be stepped on than in the very beginning of settlement, when humanity was faced with a dilemma. Utilize biotech and forcibly, violently adapt to this world? Or refuse to give in to this new world, and forcibly, violently bend it to our will?

 

Option A leads to a world of ice and fire and blood. Option B leads to a world . . . well, of ice and fire and blood, but in the future. That's something to consider.

 

I'm deliberately playing devil's advocate against you, but I am honestly in agreement as far as inclinations go. The Vlka Fenryka glory in their savagery, take pride in their nobility and relish the stark dichotomy of those traits. Our Legion . . . It's a difference of how they view the same traits. Canon hides their nobility behind a veil of savagery. Ours finds nobility in the purity of ferocity. Canon has a Legion that is rising above its feral origins and discovering that there is more to be had out among the sea of stars. Ours is an anachronistic Legion that looks to the past for truths long since forgotten by the ignorances of progress.

 

In both cases, including the Wulfen provides a darkness in their hearts that makes them more interesting. In canon, they are their own bestial horrors taken with them out into the light of other stars. In ours, they could be evidence of the inferiority of the past, brought back to life by misguided ideals.

 

So I am all for keeping the Wulfen, but I also feel that this point of time would be the perfect place to have that singular point of change.

 

 

Another would be: How exactly does an Asgardian hive world adapt/treat Fenrisian Wolves and what would their take be on wulfen? Considering our root culture is not tribal but gangland, I think we need to view this through a cyberpunk lense. Would particularly vicious individuals keep them as pets in any capacity (or even could they)? Would some seek to hybridise themselves with wulfen traits? It's likely gangs would use the Fenrisian Wolf as a motif in a wild variety of combinations, possibly even influencing how the Legion organises itself when Russ takes the lead.

I think there are a number of elements we can toss into the mix to help connect the dots. New age mysticism bringing back ancient shamanistic beliefs (and like our own real world versions, more often not wrongly, and more heavily influenced by modern ways of thought, giving us the opportunity to affect further changes, such as cyberpunkifying it) intermingling with gang culture, creating something more tribal in nature and temperament(perhaps more Cthonic than Nostraman). For the ongoing issue with the Wulfen/Fenrisian Wolves, we can look to our own problems with underground dogfights, military/police K9 training, the like. Having Russ himself go through that kind of ordeal (ever see Jet Li's Unleashed?) could go to explain some of his tortured origins. Oh hell yeah, especially as such an upbringing would give him a stronger connection with Angron. Imagine how different our Night of the Wolf could be, if Russ could actually get through to Angron, who himself is a much more calmed individual.

 

I like the idea of wolf motifs, but I think we can expand upon it, connect it with new age shamanism, and have different gangs hold to different totemic animals. Russ is an obvious, likely choice for a wolf gang, but bears, ravens, kraken and so forth could make for some interesting motifs that would inevitably mash together and get subjugated by the dominant wolves, but retain an independence and autonomy of character.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Cormac Airt

[Wade Garrett]

I've been wondering how the whole "Necromunda in Rapture" was going to play out with the VI as a Legion.

 

Truth be told, I was imagining a Russ who's more like Daud from Dishonored (a master assassin

voiced by Michael Madsen whose personal motto is "Ego homini lupus").

 

Although that would give the GH three urban commando Primarchs (Perturabo, Curze, and my probably non-existent Leman Russ of the Whalers) so ehhhh.

[Olis]

 

I think the theory - ancient Terra/Dark Age of Technology biotech - is a fine logical abduction with little else to contest it. One question is: Do we affect the population the same way in our universe? (I'm inclined to say yes if we follow the biotech theory.)

I'm generally of the preference that we have most of our alternate lore spawn from specific, singular points of change from canon.

 

That's how I see it, too. Our GH-Verse runs in close parallel to the canon universe but not too closely. Some things appear the same, at least for a while, while others have butterfly-ed out into new and wonderful - or strange and twisted - versions of themselves stemming from single points of digression.

 

Now, our Fenris is an entirely different beast from canon. It is civilized (in-universe critics may disagree). The land has been shackled and overcome. In canon, humanity . . . simply inserted itself into the natural order of this world. They let the world shape them. Which, I feel, is the thematic point behind there being no wolves in Fenris. Fenris shaped them completely. Molded them into something new, something dangerous. Our Fenrisians molded the world into something new.

 

If we hold to that theory, what better point in time to have that little butterfly be stepped on than in the very beginning of settlement, when humanity was faced with a dilemma. Utilize biotech and forcibly, violently adapt to this world? Or refuse to give in to this new world, and forcibly, violently bend it to our will?

 

Option A leads to a world of ice and fire and blood. Option B leads to a world . . . well, of ice and fire and blood, but in the future. That's something to consider.

 

I'm deliberately playing devil's advocate against you, but I am honestly in agreement as far as inclinations go. The Vlka Fenryka glory in their savagery, take pride in their nobility and relish the stark dichotomy of those traits. Our Legion . . . It's a difference of how they view the same traits. Canon hides their nobility behind a veil of savagery. Ours finds nobility in the purity of ferocity. Canon has a Legion that is rising above its feral origins and discovering that there is more to be had out among the sea of stars. Ours is an anachronistic Legion that looks to the past for truths long since forgotten by the ignorances of progress.

 

When you say that they take pride in their nobility and that they find it in ferocity, I'm seeing several things at once: For some reason, the Mafia. They strive for an air of respectability and yet they are often depicted as savage and brutal, underneath that veneer. I also see them bringing a savagery to the table that makes the War Hounds sit up and notice - after all our War Hounds are not bonkers-mental like canon World Eaters are. Where the War Hounds still seek an order to the chaos of combat, the Wolves would rather make chaos out of order and they thrive in undefined/confused/unorthodox battles (gangland influences, maybe?). 

 

I think that they way the Legion could appear may very well be less feral (well, less Viking-y) than canon-Wolves and more akin to the Luna Wolves or maybe the same tangent with gang markings and trophies. There would be obvious differences, of course. This doesn't stop the usual iconography going on but I think perhaps pelt draping might be a thing that they eschew and rather go for fur lined cloaks, or something, along with pouches of finger bones and gang colours/markings.

 

In both cases, including the Wulfen provides a darkness in their hearts that makes them more interesting. In canon, they are their own bestial horrors taken with them out into the light of other stars. In ours, they could be evidence of the inferiority of the past, brought back to life by misguided ideals.

 

So I am all for keeping the Wulfen, but I also feel that this point of time would be the perfect place to have that singular point of change.

 

Agreed. Iirc, Wulfen are a wee bit uncontrollable, right? Well, this would affect how the Legion sees them, I think. Maybe it's more akin to how the Canon Blood Angels treat the Death Company, kind of like a suicide squad/a pack of mad men to point at the enemy and watch them tear into them. 

 

Another would be: How exactly does an Asgardian hive world adapt/treat Fenrisian Wolves and what would their take be on wulfen? Considering our root culture is not tribal but gangland, I think we need to view this through a cyberpunk lense. Would particularly vicious individuals keep them as pets in any capacity (or even could they)? Would some seek to hybridise themselves with wulfen traits? It's likely gangs would use the Fenrisian Wolf as a motif in a wild variety of combinations, possibly even influencing how the Legion organises itself when Russ takes the lead.

I think there are a number of elements we can toss into the mix to help connect the dots. New age mysticism bringing back ancient shamanistic beliefs (and like our own real world versions, more often not wrongly, and more heavily influenced by modern ways of thought, giving us the opportunity to affect further changes, such as cyberpunkifying it) intermingling with gang culture, creating something more tribal in nature and temperament(perhaps more Cthonic than Nostraman). For the ongoing issue with the Wulfen/Fenrisian Wolves, we can look to our own problems with underground dogfights, military/police K9 training, the like. Having Russ himself go through that kind of ordeal (ever see Jet Li's Unleashed?) could go to explain some of his tortured origins. Oh hell yeah, especially as such an upbringing would give him a stronger connection with Angron. Imagine how different our Night of the Wolf could be, if Russ could actually get through to Angron, who himself is a much more calmed individual.

 

I like the idea of wolf motifs, but I think we can expand upon it, connect it with new age shamanism, and have different gangs hold to different totemic animals. Russ is an obvious, likely choice for a wolf gang, but bears, ravens, kraken and so forth could make for some interesting motifs that would inevitably mash together and get subjugated by the dominant wolves, but retain an independence and autonomy of character.

 

Oh, definitely more Cthonic than Nostramen. I don't believe bending the 'flavour' of the Wolves towards Canon Night Lords will achieve the effect we want. 

 

How about Underground Wulfen-fights? It could be a Fenrisian thing or a Legion thing (or both), with altered individuals used in bloody underground tournaments for money and prestige. 

 

And, yes, I believe I have seen Unleashed, just not recently... But I do agree with the meeting of minds during the Night of the Wolf. Rather than a brawl (in Legion terms) I think it would rather pan out as a friendly duel. 

 

As for motifs - Yes to other animals. Yes. Bears, Kraken, Ravens and all manner of other wild animals would make for great unit/company identities. "They may be Space Wolves, but they aren't of the Bloody Bear." That sort of in-Legion diversity and group mentality.

 

I've been wondering how the whole "Necromunda in Rapture" was going to play out with the VI as a Legion.

 

Truth be told, I was imagining a Russ who's more like Daud from Dishonored (a master assassin

voiced by Michael Madsen whose personal motto is "Ego homini lupus").

 

Although that would give the GH three urban commando Primarchs (Perturabo, Curze, and my probably non-existent Leman Russ of the Whalers) so ehhhh.

 

Unfortunately I have yet to play Dishonoured. Maybe I could try to blag it from my brother...

 

But, anyway, I don't generally see our Russ as an urban commando type - more of shades of Mob Boss-cum-Outdoor Hunter/Tracker (and with shavings of his old Canon personality in there too).  

[Conn Eremon]

I'm liking their feel now. I'm sure I did before, but it's been so long.

 

So we have a 'crime-family' society that looks to outdated, anachronistic beliefs as being the original root of the essence of nobility, which they take for themselves to cover their own darker flaws. They parade around the flaws of the past because it hides the more true flaws beneath. At the same time, they retain their strong pack mentalities (shifted to the pseudo-families [Clans?]), and still place a powerful importance on the notion of loyalty. Pretty good stuff coming out of this discussion.

 

Man, have I got a sudden urge to go watch Gangs of New York.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Cormac Airt

[Olis]

Man, have I got a sudden urge to go watch Gangs of New York.

 

Duuuude. Space Wolves via Gangs of New York is an incredibly good way of summing up how I am envisioning them. 

 

Also in regard to gangs/clans/whatever, I believe the possibility of them still being named 'packs' might work. Searching for alternatives is coming up with scant few credible replacements.

[Conn Eremon]

Well, considering the dominant wolf motif, it remains appropriate. But I was thinking beyond squad/formation levels. Like a clan made up of multiple packs. Not X Legion kind of clans, a nomadic, tight-knit community, but family-based clans that exist as social constructs within and separate from the overall community. Basically, I'm thinking of the Mafia families mixing with the Irish/Scottish Clan families, which I am using Liam Neeson and Leonardo DiCaprio's roles as inspiration. The idea of being supplanted and holding tighter to the ideals of the past, filtered through modern corruption.

 

But maybe things aren't so homogenized among our equivalent of the Great Companies, if you don't like the idea of clans. I can see Russ taking these families that rise into the Legion and deliberately breaking them across the Legion. Sure, the group identities remain strong and resistant, but it is much more difficult for, say the Clan of the Cave Bears, to mount an organized power play against his leadership when it's difficult for even the patriarchs to just talk to each other.

 

Hm, maybe that makes Russ' dominance seem too tenuous. Perhaps it is more to keep these families from invoking too much bloodshed against each other.

 

This would allow each Great Company to have a fluctuating make-up of all kinds of different 'packs,' rather than having Clan-Companies with individual, dominant pack types.

 

Personally, I'm in favor of the latter.

[Olis]

Ah, I see. Great Company level groupings. So you'd favour -
 

Clan-Companies with individual, dominant pack types.

 

Correct? 

 

Btw, I wanna replace 'clan' with something but I haven't thought of anything good yet. Well, that's sort of a lie, there's some words that have caught my eye (Kindred, Caste, Circle) but I'm not sold on 'em.

[Conn Eremon]

Kindred has a nice ring to it as an alternative to family. Caste would give it the wrong flavor, I feel, and I'm not particularly sold on Circle either.

 

I'm cool with going Kindred over Clan. Or something else. Clan was just a real-world term that fit with what I was trying to say.

 

But yeah, I like the idea of each these divisions of the Legion being made up of one of the many gang-kindred-clans, as a shift of the pack mentality but not a replacement of the packs themselves.

 

Could easily allow the Legion to more readily become the collection of individualized, autonomous groupings that it will inevitably be forced into.

 

Goodness, and to think that they are so tightly attached to the Thousand Sons, and vice versa, and our AU. Rather disparate Legions.

[Olis]

I gotta say I felt that 'Kindred' was the strongest contender of those three. I'm cool with referring to the Great Companies as Kindreds. 

[Conn Eremon]

So the VI Legion is made up of Kindreds, composed of Packs, with each Kindred being tied to one of the original Fenrisian families? Perhaps Clan can be a term on Fenris alone, as I believe it is in canon already (Thunderfist Clan, right? Or am I misremembering?)

 

I can still see Russ' wolf-motif Clan being the most dominant, perhaps providing the majority of Kindreds or interspersed throughout all Kindreds in some measure.

 

Edit: Oh, that's right. He is Leman of the Russ, so Russ is the family name.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Cormac Airt

[Olis]

I'm fairly sure Canon-Fenris has clans so having clans on GH-Fenris isn't too much of a stretch. Perhaps having a Russ Clan would be a good starting point in fleshing out the clans and kindreds.

[Conn Eremon]

Alright, so we have a Russ Clan that takes the young Leman in (perhaps giving him their name, perhaps not). If I recall correctly, he isn't exactly treated fairly and loses an eye. Perhaps they Angron him, pit him against others in their dog fights. Eventually Leman kills the Patriarch (alternative to Wolf Lord?) and takes over the Clan (this could be the other point where he gets the Russ name).

 

I'm not sure what else we have happen, but I'm sure the gist of it is that Leman takes over Fenris by the time the Emperor arrives.

 

I'd like to see the Russ Kindred (or Kindred of Russ?) be the equivalent of the canon Wolf Guard of Russ himself, but not be restrictive to just those of the Fenrisian Clan.

 

Hm, what if he doesn't take to the Clan who took him in, but creates the Russ Clan around himself as its Patriarch when he begins his ascension, which goes on to become his Kindred in the Legion. While other Clans have traditions of shifting from one to the other, the Russ Clan would be the only Clan that is entirely made up of those who actively seek to be a part of his Clan. Which means that without Russ himself, the Russ Clan doesn't grow. If I recall correctly, Russ leads an assault against the Medusan Clan-Machines and dies there, Bjorn the only one living to tell the tale. Stands to reason that the elite who die with him are the Russ Kindred. No Patriarch, no Clan. No Clan, no Kindred. Making Bjorn the last of the Russ.

[fox2013]

so bjorn could be considered the "spirit of the russ" since he's the last 1? last of the russ clan, and lone wolf among the legion? sidenote - how do the legions feel about dreadnoughts?

[Conn Eremon]

Just an update to all threads I follow: Cormac Airt is now Conn Eremon.

[Olis]

While I'm here checking out Cormac's post Conn's post, I'd like to just let people know that when thing's get rolling again, we'll decamp from this thread and start a new one. :)

[Quixus]

Just an update to all threads I follow: Cormac Airt is now Conn Eremon.

What xenos trickery is this? Edited December 24, 2014 by Quixus

[Conn Eremon]

 

Just an update to all threads I follow: Cormac Airt is now Conn Eremon.

What xenos trickery is this?

The best kind.

 

Ork kind.

 

:wink:

[Quixus]

Must be orky season. Green and red everywhere.

[Wade Garrett]

Just an update to all threads I follow: Cormac Airt is now Conn Eremon.

Of course he is.

 

*Hails Hydra*

Edited December 25, 2014 by Wade Garrett

[Conn Eremon]

"Horus died for a dream I didn't think he believed in. While those brothers I had thought cared the most for our father's dream are even now corrupting it, destroying it from within . . . I was wrong."

- Corax, earliest recording found following the Namn Massacre

 

The Raven Lord had stood opposed to the Battle-King's demand of loyalty, and suffered terribly for it at the hands of the Salamanders and his twisted brother Vulkan. Though evidence showed that the XIX Legion did escape from the trap laid for them, and indeed flourished after surviving such a crucible, for a time it was believed that Corax had become yet another victim to the Age of the Warmasters. It is assumed that for a period following their escape, the Raven Guard and their Primarch engaged in acts of subterfuge and covert operations. It is likely that at least some of the actions attributed to the Alpha Legion during the so-called "Shadow War" might instead have been the doing of the Ravens. It is, however, next to impossible to ascertain the truth behind the Shadow War.

 

The Raven Guard did not remain in the darkness for long. The Legion had apparently undergone one of the most intensive recruitment programs known to the Legiones Astartes, potentially on par with the Imperial Heralds and Ultramarines over the final decades of the Great Crusade. There were even rumors of gene-modification, and later genetic projects do lend potential credibility to these rumors. However, with the Legion growing to rival the largest, Corax found his Legion's commanders and veterans to be ill-prepared. With the war ramping up to even greater atrocities and bloodshed, the recruited legionaries would need competent leadership when the Raven Guard return to the conventional battlefields. While the survivors of Namn had prove themselves to be of surpassing capabilities and reliability, they were simply too few. For the first time since Corax had taken over the Nineteenth, he called to the Terran elements that had been long exiled from his command.

 

Records show that response was slow in coming, and likely the Raven Guard believed their estranged brothers were too far gone. Imperial historians would find it of little surprise, however, to know that when a response finally did arrive, it was from Arkhas Fal, the Shade Lord, the shark of the void, former Legion Commander of the Terran Nineteenth. The message, like its deliverer, was direct and to the point.

 

"We come."

Edited February 25, 2015 by Conn Eremon

[Wulfkry]

AT LAST AN UPDATE!!! NEEED MOAR!!!!