Chaplain Haladriel Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Brothers! As I have been anticipating the new DA releases coming out, and I have pretty much finished my 3rd Company in its entirety, along with attached RW and DW elements. I need something to paint, so I decided as an early birthday present to myself I will be starting a pre Heresy DA army, probably less than 2000 points in total. As FW have made it possible to purchase 30 Tac marines in one shot it leaves me with a few questions regarding armour marks (ie Mk2,Mk3). I want to avoid using the incorrect or non fluffy armour mark type and I dont want to pay for each squad individually and its already costing me a second mortgage. Now we all know that at the beginning of the Heresy the Lion and his lads were in the eastern fringes of the galaxy. This leaves the question of how long they were there for and what Mk type of armour was most commonly seen? If they were so far from a Forge World, did they have the armour they started out with, probably Mk2 or Mk3 or did they aquire later Mk suits? I have unsuccessfully looked on many forums and topic boards here on B&C in the Heresy section to no avail. Would brother Angel's have some insight or even opinons on this topic? Question While campaigning at the outset of the Heresy and the fighting around Saroshi and Diamata and against the Night Lords what Mk type power armour was most commonly used? Did the 1st Legion ever get later Mark suits (Mk4/Mk5). Cheers for any insight! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 From what I recall of the Heresy novels, the earlier production models of the MkIV suits were diverted towards Horus' allies in the time immediately prior to the outbreak of the Heresy, as part of a Crusade-wide tinkering by Horus to put his forces in a strategically better position than the forces he could not rely on. That would intimate that the 1st Legion would not have had MkIV suits during the Heresy. On the cover art of Fallen Angels the DA look like they are in Mk3 plate to me.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Actually they did have MK IV plate, perhaps you could rationalize that they had less due to what facmanpob said, but I believe Corswain is noted as wearing it. Here is a recent thread that bears much relevance - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=264625. You could always just buy 10 Mark IVs and spread them among your other units, maybe some as sergeants. EDIT: Though I might be mistaken on Corswain actually wearing it actually. Would have to check Savage Weapons. I still feel the DA would have at least go some of the suits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 That's a good thread :D .....just had a thought, most of the background I've read implies that the 1st Legion had a bit of a poster boy image in the early part of the Crusade (being named 1st Legion will do that I guess!), so it would be reasonable to assume that they had a glut of equipment as they would get a healthy allocation of supplies. So looking at it from that standpoint would suggest that they could have quite a lot of MkIV. I can't remember if Corswain was ever specifically mentioned as having MkIV, but as I also can't remember what I had for breakfast on Saturday I'm happy to stand corrected ;) There you go, I've just completely contradicted my original post! :P Personally, I'd buy whichever Mark of armour you like most! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 A couple of tidbits to ponder I suppose are that MkIV is noted as coming out later in the Crusade and Caliban was not found until halfway through. I can really put a time on "later" but it would have to be at least halfway to 3/4 through I suppose. Perhaps many Caliban-born recruits could have wound up with them? I can't confirm the Corswain thing at the moment either. EDIT: I skimmed through MadDoc's thread because I thought his Paladin was inspired by Corswain, but now I don't see mention of such. Other than that, it would have had to be in Savage Weapons... unless I totally made it up, lol. I still feel that at least some Mk IV would make it's way to every Legion. Obviously the Traitors got the most of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Personal taste: I would go for the MKIII as it appeals to my sense of Knightly orders with maybe a small amount of MKIV. Having built 5 of each type I found the MKIII easier to put together. Before you go throwing oodles of cash at FW check this site out. There are some nice bits here and they seem to have new stuff all the time. I use them and the service is great :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I can't confirm the Corswain thing at the moment either. I'll skim through MadDoc's thread, see if he mentions it. Other than that, it would have had to be in Savage Weapons... unless I totally made it up, lol. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story! :D I agree that Savage Weapons would be the likely place to look, but I haven't read that for some time so I'd need to look through it. I read The Lion fairly recently and can't recall it being in there. Frustratingly, I'm out at a work Xmas party tonight straight from work, so I'm going to be thinking about Marks of armour all through that until I can get home and check....by which time I'll probably be too drunk to read! lol! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Well, I can at least stand by the assessment that since the Mark IV was put into production "towards the end of the Great Crusade" (per FW), that it was being slowly pushed out to Legions prior to Horus even turning. It was only once he turned that he sent loyalist Legions to the far reaches of the galaxy and tried to ensure his Traitors had the best gear. I do agree with Elmo, Mk. III or even II are more knightly though (Mk. III is a noted specialist mk for boarding actions however - but rule of cool to some extent is nice). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 It was only once he turned that he sent loyalist Legions to the far reaches of the galaxy and tried to ensure his Traitors had the best gear. Very true, good point! I guess the answer is that in creating a pre-heresy army you can really choose any of the early marks and have justification for it :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I have age of darkness with me, ill check in between classes, and post it here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 The suspense is killing me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hngh, I can't seem to find it, but I'm sure its there. Anyone else found it yet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hngh, I can't seem to find it, but I'm sure its there. Anyone else found it yet? It's likely it's not there and I dreamed it. I know it mentioned his Calibanite Lion mantle and I thought it would have also noted his armor in the same sentence(s). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 The way I see it, every legion was amply supplied with MkII and MkIII during the Great Crusade, and everybody was making ad-hoc modifications (later grouped as MkV) during the Horus Heresy. Horus and the Fabricator-General diverted the majority of MkIV suits to legions they felt they could rely on but when you consider the size of a legion - around 100,000 seems to be 'normal' in the latest novels - you could have a Crusade-era army of fifty guys in MkIV and it would be considered a small allocation overall. Initially everything up to MkIV was available to everyone, with MkV added to the list during the Heresy itself. It's equally valid for anyone's few dozen models to be the exception to the general rule as it is for them to be representative of the wider legion. Betrayal makes it very clear that every legion modified its organisation and methods from the standard model of a legion. So MkIV could equally have been issued to some in order of seniority or to others in company-strength batches and neither is wrong. Heck, even MkVI can be explained in a Crusade-era force as it was undergoing field trials then. The Raven Guard were foremost in this process but that doesn't rule out other legions also taking part. So to Chaplain Haladriel I say use the models you think look best. The reason you can't find anything definitive is because GW like these details to be unclear so you can fill the gaps with your own imagination. Personally I found the uniformity of the Forge World bundle deals off-putting and would much rather have a mix of MkII and MkIII, maybe with some MkIV. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 They definitely had access to MkIV. I don't recall how many though, it coul have been a lot of them. I know it was stated either in the second half of DoA or it was in FA. The MkIII was for boarding assaults as the backs weren't as reinforced compared to the rest of the armor and that's why it isn't used on assault marines, at least the reason given why GW/FW won't make an assault version. Depending on "when" you are trying to have your army. Any number of Mks shouldn't be a problem fluff wise unless you are trying to go with a chapter of MkVIs :P that would be over thousand marines depending on how many companies you would have within the two battalions. Pretty much a mix of MkIIs, IVs, Vs and a few VIs should be fine. Even some IIIs but I wouldn't think too may of them but there would probably be more of them than VIs. Lqtm Also there is a thread somewhere on here dealing with the different Mks and when they were made along with notes of who may have a lot of them if I remember right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3257867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Haladriel Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Brother's thank you for all your insightful and expeditious replies on this topic! I personally am leaning towards Mk2 as the majority of the Legion wore it prior to the discovery of Caliban, and as it states in the fluff the Lion spent more time leading his Terran born Chapter's than those of Caliban, which it can be argued was found much later in the Great Crusade ergo the Caliban Chapter's being equiped with Mk IV or MkIII. I do agree that the use of Mk III for boarding actions is "un-fluffy" to a frontline unit, however they are bloody cool looking, and "knightly". I re-read all of the DA Heresy books, and searched through ALL my Imperial Armour books for something to reference Mark types with the 1st Legion but alas to no avail! I could always mix and match armour Mark's as suggested. The bundle is only 30 marines so if I buy 2 other 5 man armour sets then I can mix and match all I like! I better decide quick though if the DA new dex is released next month! Christmas leave is going to be busy! This gets me thinking also about Terminator's. If our current Chapter and our Successor's have full Companies of Terminator armour left from the Crusade/Heresy, what type would they be!?! The Cataphractii (sp?) is very interesting looking but it never mentions it in any of the fluff I have read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3258092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Found that blasted thread. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showarticle=43 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3258257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhent Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 On a more practical note: Of the 60 Mk3 armor marines that I received, 1 in every single packaged was damaged. Specifically, the bottom of the tabard that hangs below the belt was snapped off or miscast right at the beltline on the bottom-most torso of each sprue. http://zhent.org/ssnap/1355178402-P6S9rpxN.jpg Unless you happen to live close enough to Nottingham to make it worth your time to examine the packs before purchase, I would steer you towards mark 2 or 4 armor. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3258791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 That sucks, mate. It may have been that it was a bad cast. Sometimes that can happen when they are doing a bunch of them in a row. A reason I try not to buy around christmas time or income tax time here in the states :blink: or it is because it's on the end it could be prone to breaking off as they put it all of a five man in one bag and things tend to pop off. Still pretty sucky it's happened to all of them. I am willing to bet it's the mass casting of them and it being on the end so in the bag it happens. For something like that I would contact FW and say something..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3258897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Haladriel Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 So Brothers, I have found the answer to my own question. In "Descent of Angels", page 303 it states that they were wearing MkIV power armour. This is the incident on Sarosh, it specifically mentions MkIV armour twice in that battle. So therefore looks like Im buying some MkIV and I will toss some Mk II suits in their as suggested. Anyone have any thoughts on the Tartarus TDA or the Cataphractii armour. I plan on having some Contemptor dreads, so the Tartarus might tie them all in together or maybe its going to look odd have dreads and Termie's in similar armour styles. I like the Cataphractii armour but the leather tabards on the shoulders makes it look more Ultramarine (Roman Legionnaire's come to mind) than knightly. Any thoughts on TDA? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3259911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Haladriel Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 In addition to my last comment, I am going to use Mk II as for the Terran born marines, maybe a Veteran squad and the Calibanite marines will get Mk IV. Also going to paint the Terran marines completely black, and the Calibanite ones with a green should pad as ordered by the Lion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3259919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I knew it was in there. DoA that is. I just had the thought it may have been in FA too and that mixed me up. The Cat TDA had those on many different Legions version. But I get ya when you think them being Smurfy style. Honestly it was more of a Terran style thing (Like the plumes and stuff on the helmets. It's just that those elements have become synonymous with the Smurfs.) It was it's style but you could take off those leather straps, too. It seems like it's more about the shoulder pad itself than those straps as they have shown pics of that type without the straps. Honestly from how the fluff appears to be written all the forms of TDA that are currently being made by FW and GW can be used for a Pre/heresy armor. If you play HH 30k and want the armor in game terms to be Cat it will need to be modeled that way for them. but for playing games of 40k you could buy a squad of each and mix them around. it would look cool. Just go with what you feel is cooler looking as they are all fluffwise ok. I plan on doing that with my TDA, having different types. I have some I am modifying to look Cat style and I am waiting on getting more funds so I can get some Tartaros pattern. I even have old TDA Libs and an old TDA "turtle" type. Don't forget the right pad would have their knightly heraldry instead of squad rank markings for the Calibanite DA. If you are going the more fluffy route that is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3259922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Haladriel Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Yeah I re-read all the HH DA stuff I have (which is everything with the DA in it!), Finished DoA about an hour or so ago and found it right in the end. I completely agree with the Cat TDA, I think it would be cool if I could try to find some third party chainmail or something like that to replace the leather straps on the shoulders. I am also not a big fan of the crested helmets and the plumes either. I was thinking of copying the Worthy Painting style helmets with the wings from the RW set, I think it looks pretty sweet. I also will have to look up some suitable knightly heraldry stuff to paint on for squads markings etc. Might take my GK small shields and modify the patterns to wings, swords,etc. vice books and GK related iconography. Definately going to go the fluffier route. Its not going to be a super big army (max 2000 pts) for a HH campaign my gaming group is starting once everyone paints their armies. Im the only Loyalist chapter so far and the only DA player for miles around so it was just assumed! We havent decided on whether to include Primarch's yet, but if we do I am going to have to figure something out. The Kabuki Primarch model of The Lion looks a little to cheesy for my liking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3259950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Yeah. there are a few companies that make "primarchs" like models currently and a lot look silly to me. I think I will impatiently wait for FWs to see what it looks like. I think there are pieces from either CSM models and WFB Warriors of Chaos that have some parts that could work as chainmail pieces instead. Can't remember.... If i think of a place that has things like that I will let you know. Helmets I use the FW ones and I take some WFB Warriors of Chaos helmets and remove the horns and CHaos stuff off of them and I have gotten some GK helmets. If you are looking for GW stuff for helemts. there are some neat SteamKnight helms that look good that are made by some company I can't think of their name at the moment. Icongraphy fluff I am fairly certain in Call of the Lion it has someone with a white winged claw holding a Sword n top of a blue backing For The Raven's Wing. I think. I need to get another copy of that story....... So there is a start for one of them... lqtm I love seeing more people doing Pre/heresy style stuff! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3259971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Haladriel Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 I know the company your talking about in regards to helmets, I think its chapterhouse http://www.chapterhousestudios.com/ and there is another one in Poland I believe. I might get a Primarch commisioned for me but its $$$. Might be worth it though as we may be waiting some years for a Lion from FW. Though I have patiently waited for a new dex this long as well! LOL The WFB WoC is a good idea, I have some friends (same ones Im doing the HH campaign with) and they are all Chaos SM and WFB maybe I can raid their supply of bits. Alot of people are doing HH armies now, I think FW doing this awesome story may diminish 40K, still not alot of DA in either though :lol: Found the link to a helmet/bits site in the UK http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/index.php?r...&path=77_66 Definately some heads in here that would work! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/267476-da-pre-heresy-armour-question/#findComment-3260061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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