Why are Scouts Elites?

[Battle-Brother Zephaniah]

I was wondering why Scout Marines in the DA Codex are listed as Elites. I can't seem to find an answer in the codex itself. I was just wondering, since my friend was teaching me to play today and I was using DA vs his Vanilla Marines and noticed he could field Scouts as Troops.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, the DA scouts are also BS4/WS4 while standard SM scouts are only BS3/WS3. In addition, it comes down to game balance issues, and possibly a little bit of how the Chapter/Unforgiven use scouts as a whole, namely in a reduced capacity compared to other Chapters because the Unforgiven use the Ravenwing/2nd Company assets as exceptionally skilled scouting forces in the first place. Given this reduced capacity of use and them not truly applying as Heavy Support or Fast Attack, the only FOC slot usable to indicate reduced deployment would be Elite.

 

There are likely other details that those more versed than I might be able to give you, but the above are some of the primary reasons in my interpretation.

[Captain Semper]

Frankly I think that making them elites was more rules driven (or should I say "list" driven) than background driven i.e to make players make harder choices... Which was a mistake as they had to compete with other "truly" elite elements not least of which was the DW... In a list that allowed for limited competitive builds, bringing the scouts in the Elites section was in my view a mistake. There is certainly no background reason as to why this should be the case... Havign them with improved skills was just an excuse to justify them in the Elits section but, unlike Wolves, the scouts in the DA fluff are not hardened veterans but still SM trainees...

[ValourousHeart]

When c:da was released scouts in every marine codex were bs/ws 4.

It was c:sm, released later, that changed that.

So improved stats is not a valid reason.

 

Another point of view is that while the section is called "elites" that doesn't necessarily define the quality of the units or even their role.

An example of this from codex GK is the stormraven... Which is in the heavy support section but its role on the table is more like a fast attack unit.

 

There is also a balance issue from the time the codex was written where most codex had at most 3 troop choices, scouts would make it 4.

And realistically if you are going to run DW units, you'll have B so they will be troops.

The techmarines don't take up a slot.

So that is 2 less units that the scouts are competing against.

 

The comparison really comes down to dread vs vets vs scouts.

Each have a very different role.

 

Probably the biggest draw back of our codex is the fact that we don't have a cheap objective camper, which is how scouts are used in c:sm.

But the main reason scouts are used in c:sm is to save points for more TDA units... Which we don't have to do because of B.

[Brother Landrain]

Agree...

Our scouts were penalized by being Elite choices, because we had ways to make DW and RW troops.

 

Beyond that there really is no 'reason'

It is not like a scout army is overpowering.

Even with BS/WS 4 it doesn't make being an Elite a good choice.

 

The SW Scouts are WS/BS 4, and elite, but have a whole lot of advantages over DA Scouts.

This choice actually does make sense.

With the added wargear options, and USR's they can hold there own as an Elite.

 

DA Scouts, not so much.

[Tanhausen]

When c:da was released scouts in every marine codex were bs/ws 4.

It was c:sm, released later, that changed that.

 

This.

 

And since C: DA is older than C: SM, we never got to have our scouts "revisited" into troop options.

[Chaplain Killmer]

Lets hope that stays like that - its kinda sad that the halflings will be the best imperial snipers once all scouts are ws bs 3.

[Master Avoghai]

Agree...

Our scouts were penalized by being Elite choices, because we had ways to make DW and RW troops.

 

Beyond that there really is no 'reason'

It is not like a scout army is overpowering.

Even with BS/WS 4 it doesn't make being an Elite a good choice.

 

The SW Scouts are WS/BS 4, and elite, but have a whole lot of advantages over DA Scouts.

This choice actually does make sense.

With the added wargear options, and USR's they can hold there own as an Elite.

 

DA Scouts, not so much.

 

It's not a way to "penalize"... Just to represent the fact that scouts are as rare as termis (one company/chapter)... Elites is not a good name... "Rare Units" like in battle is more appropriate

Don't forget where we came from in v4, we had people who played 2x5 scouts as troops to play, lots of elite and HS units...

=> No Tacticals who are the backbone of any SM army.

 

GW chose another way in SM codex : lowering the stats of the scouts. To me it's a very good idea to differenciate them from the SM... but problem : their cost is too high for what they do and nobody play them anymore...

 

Is there a good solution? Lowering the price risk to make them replace tactical again... :/

[Brother dean]

Because your half trained, half armored, wet behind the ears, rookie marines, are ALWAYS the mainstay of your force. I have always had problems with Scouts being troops* from a background/logic POV.

 

*outside of Wolf scouts who are elite anyway...

[Plastic Rat]

Frankly I think that making them elites was more rules driven (or should I say "list" driven) than background driven i.e to make players make harder choices

 

When c:da was released scouts in every marine codex were bs/ws 4.

It was c:sm, released later, that changed that.

So improved stats is not a valid reason.

 

The above is the clearest explanation. There is absolutely no fluff explanation for why they are any different from Codex Space Marines. Anyone trying to make one up should be told to stop being silly.

Awful design choices are a clear explanation.

 

 

It's not a way to "penalize"... Just to represent the fact that scouts are as rare as termis

 

I strongly disagree here. It is representing nothing other than the fact that the design paradigm at the time that codex was done called for a massive reduction in choice and variety.

 

The Dark Angels have a full scout company just like every other codex chapter.

 

 

Because your half trained, half armored, wet behind the ears, rookie marines, are ALWAYS the mainstay of your force. I have always had problems with Scouts being troops* from a background/logic POV.

 

*outside of Wolf scouts who are elite anyway...

 

According to the fluff they are far from half-trained. They are also under the tutelage of a very experienced veteran trainer. Scouts in the fluff are deployed alongside normal power armored marines to A) gain valuable battlefield experience and B ) fulfill a critically important battlefield role which does not include frontline fighting. Having them as troops options simply represents how ubiquitous they are in most marine forces.

[Sviar]

When c:da was released scouts in every marine codex were bs/ws 4.

 

Except for BT

[Onisuzume]

Agree...

Our scouts were penalized by being Elite choices, because we had ways to make DW and RW troops.

Clearly, we should've had an overpriced "Master of Recruits" special character which allowed scouts as troops like Belial/Sammael did with DW/RW.

 

If they had the option of taking a teleport homer, it would've been clear why they'd be elites.

But they don't, from what I can see.

It's not a way to "penalize"... Just to represent the fact that scouts are as rare as termis (one company/chapter)... Elites is not a good name... "Rare Units" like in battle is more appropriate

Rarer, most likely.

At least for us DA, since the DW is fluffed as being 100 Terminators, while the number of scouts tend to fluctuate a lot, typically being anywhere between only a few dozen to almost a full company or more, depending on recruitment rate and battlefield losses.

Even Company Veterans would be more common, imo, since every company supposedly has a squad or more since the 4th edition 'dex hit.

Except for BT

Yeah, but they're special khornite marines.

[Captain Semper]

Clearly, we should've had an overpriced "Master of Recruits" special character which allowed scouts as troops like Belial/Sammael did with DW/RW.

 

:)

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

An example of this from codex GK is the stormraven... Which is in the heavy support section but its role on the table is more like a fast attack unit.

 

Stormravens are Fast Attack in C:GK. They're Heavy Support in C:BA.

 

EDIT - Removed unnecessary apostrophe.

[ValourousHeart]

I had a feeling right after I posted that, that someone would mention BT.

But then I remembered that BT don't have scouts... They just use the scout models to represent their initiates.

 

As for the stormraven... I should have checked my book, I could have sworn that it was the other way round.

So you could have both NDK and SR in the same list.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

But then I remembered that BT don't have scouts... They just use the scout models to represent their initiates.

 

Neophytes.

 

:)

[ValourousHeart]

But then I remembered that BT don't have scouts... They just use the scout models to represent their initiates.

 

Neophytes.

 

:)

 

Touche

[Master Avoghai]

It's not a way to "penalize"... Just to represent the fact that scouts are as rare as termis

 

I strongly disagree here. It is representing nothing other than the fact that the design paradigm at the time that codex was done called for a massive reduction in choice and variety.

 

The Dark Angels have a full scout company just like every other codex chapter.

You miss my point.

 

I DO think that both SM and any vanilla marine chapter have the same amount of scouts.

 

The fact that scouts are as rare as termis is then perfectly represented by the fact they're in elite (+ they are not skilled enough to securize and hold an objective.)

 

The error of GW lies on the fact that they decide not to maintain scout as elite when they released codex : SM + they decided to change the stats (which is a good thing but alas, to late for DA)

 

IMO 10pts scouts with BS and WS3 counting as elite is the perfect way to be for both DA and SM scouts.

 

But I totally agree that the current situation is stupid and is only a testimony of poor game design

[Gillyfish]

Back when our Codex came out it was designed to address a number of perceived abuses with existing marine lists. These included 6 man tactical squads with a plasma gun and lascannon (las/plas) and scout squads which seemed to form the mainstay of many a marine list (take two scout squads and then fill up on 'interesting' stuff, for example).

 

So I suspect that was the original reason. The SM Codex then tried a different route as GW found that scouts were barely taken in our Codex. Tactical squads were similarly altered to make them more competitive/attractive.

 

That, I suspect, is the reason scouts are Elites for us.

[Phoebus]

I feel the frustration of most of the posters.

 

I use the Disciples of Caliban as my Successor of choice (since I like my Dark Angels to be "virtuous and noble to the higher degree" even when balancing their duties to the Imperium against the Hunt for the Fallen) when I feel like coming up with fluff ideas. One of those ended up being a force structure of ten Company-equivalents on permanent war-footing (no separate Deathwing and Ravenwing Companies, no Reserve Companies, no Scout Company, etc.): a squad of Deathwing-equivalents, a squadron of Ravenwing-equivalents, four Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads, and two Devastator Squads. The Ravenwing-equivalents could deploy on bikes and speeders, or they could go on foot (using the Scouts rules, if you will). The only loose end would be your opponent signing off on a Scout squad carrying a Teleport Homer (which is not in the Codex, obviously).

 

In that sense, the superior WS and BS is justified - since they are not neophytes but rather experienced battle-brothers who have begun their initiation in the Chapter's mysteries.

[MadMek83]

Lion forgive me saying this: They're similar than Wolf Scouts of Space Wolves. No longer initiate's but rather experienced fighting force. Bit like in BA next thing you move from being scout is not Devastators squads but assault squads and devastators are actually most experienced BA troops veterans excluded and they need experience to suppress Red Thirst and urges run to rip enemy into pieces, which would be quite bad for long range support unit.

 

Overpriced especially if you take sniper rifles and then don't get camo cloaks... But BS 4 snipers that can infiltrate it is sometimes worth of the price. But scouts are one the units that has taken heavy hits in codex creep.

[Xenith]

Wow. There's a lot of...crazy reasons out there.

 

C:DA was a method for Jervis to make space marine armies look and function like space marine armies, with a solid core of tactical marines, split into 5 man units, as per the codex astartes.

 

3rd ed (and 4th with everything scoring) saw marine armies take 2x5man scouts as troops, or 5man las/plas squads, then load up on other stuff (termies).

 

By removing scouts as troops, you force tacs as the compulsory troops means a higher investment in tacs (need 10men to get the heavy) so we start to see more battle company style armies, hinged on two tactical squads.

 

Where he guffed is that non 5man las/plas tactical squads were mainly rubbish, and Deathwing are awesome, so everyone took Belial to get terminators as troops.

 

EDIT: Seeing the weird left field reasons, I skipped to the end, and missed Gillyfish's explanation, which is correct.