Zhukov's Tournament Discussion.

[Zhukov]

I guess I'll use this thread to post some more thoughts of me. Went to a tournament this weekend where I used this list:

 

Mephiston 250

Libririan; 100

Rune Priest; 100

10 GH’s; 2x plasma 160

10 GH’s; 2x plasma 160

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 135

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 135

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 135

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 135

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

Stormraven 230

Total: 1750

 

 

Game 1:

Dawn of War deployement, primary kill points, secundary slay the warlord etc, tertiary victory points.

 

Oppenent: 4x 5 GK's in Razorbacks, 2 Psyflemen, 2x Deathwing squad + Belial, wirlwind.

 

Result: Draw.

 

Game 2:

The deployement with the diagonal line, primary 1 objective each, secundary and tertiary the same.

 

Oppenent: Space wolves, basicly foot Wolves with some pods and a quad gun.

 

Result: Win.

 

Game 3:

Hammer and anvil deployement, primary Big guns never tire, secundary and tertiary the same.

 

Oppenent: 6 Razorbacks with Henchman, 3 Psyflemen, allied MotF with Attack Bikes and another 2 Riflemen.

 

Result: Win.

 

Overall result: I think 2nd or 3rd for Best General, but lack of painting etc dropped me down to 7th overall.

 

Didn't make pictures (I have an old phone with 2.0 megapixel en my camera is broken) so can't make battlereports, sorry.

But if people wanna have my thoughts on something, feel free to ask, ask me anything. (AMA)

 

Some thoughts of myself:

-Mephiston wins games, one way or the other. However, I keep failing psychic tests in crucial moments. Which is why I had Corbulo in my list 5th edition. I'm looking to add him again.

-Stormraven does its job, but with no opposing fliers his impact on the game was somewhat lacking. Nowhere near problematic, but it didn't feel super efficient either. My oppenent in game 1 castled his forced for example, giving me 1 round of firing before I had to fly of the board again. (24" weapons, 12" for rapidfire range doesn't help here)

-Assault Marines in Razorbacks are highly lacking. They're low priority, which is nice and all, but firing 1 plasmagun each turn just isn't much of course. I wish they had bolters really badly. Or being cheaper.

-Fast Rhinos/Razors aren't really usefull in 6th tbh, not when you factor in the premium you pay for it. (5 GH's with plasmagun in a razor is 125 for example, cheaper and with bolters). Why? Because you wanna disembark as soon as possible in this edition. Not being able contest with them, not being able to charge the next turn from it, damage results affecting passengers heavily.... It's rarely usefull to move 24" with them.

-GH's are good, but they don't compensate the lack of bolters on ASM enough. GK's help out more in this respect. (twice the damage output at long range, for about 25% extra cost).

 

So even though I did well, I still don't feel good about this kind of list. Yeah, I'm one of those persons who learns from winning too. Never change a winning team doesn't apply to me. ASM make the list feel handicapped. I feel like playing with 1600 points in a way. My 'hate' (rational dislike) for Jumpers means that's not really an option either.

 

I'll be testing the same list, but with GK Allies next. (remove the BA libby and hurricane bolters on the raven)

I'm afraid I'll end up using Blood Angels as Allies of Grey Knights though. Why? Because I can ally all the things I want from BA:

Mephiston

Corbulo

5 ASM in a Razor

3 MM Attack Bikes

Stormraven

 

I don't want more ASM in Razors, I don't need more MM Attack Bikes, nor a 2nd Raven.

 

You'd get something like this:

 

Coteaz 100

10 GK’s, 2x psycannon, psyback 271

10 GK’s, 2x psycannon, psyback 271

10 GK’s, 2x psycannon, psyback 271

Mephiston 250

Corbulo 105

5 ASM; melta, razorback 131

3 MM Attack Bikes 150

Stormraven 200

Total: 1750

 

If it's not appropriate to discuss the use of Blood Angels as Allies here, then ignore this last bit :)

[Zhukov]

Was it needed to split this from the other thread? Didn't feel like it deserved a seperate topic, but as you wish.

[knife&fork]

I don't want more ASM in Razors

 

In their defense I think you were using the wrong kind of razorback. Las plas isn't as useful as it was in 5th. Sub 24" where they get full effect is a place you want to be even less now in 6th and the 'weapon destroyed' insurance very rarely matters.

[Zhukov]

I don't want more ASM in Razors

 

In their defense I think you were using the wrong kind of razorback. Las plas isn't as useful as it was in 5th. Sub 24" where they get full effect is a place you want to be even less now in 6th and the 'weapon destroyed' insurance very rarely matters.

I play them with TL-HB's :yes:

 

Wouldn't change this either, cause they get still targeted, even when they only have a TL-HB.

 

Edit: I didn't mean I don't want ASM in razors cause of the razors btw, but because of the ASM.

[knife&fork]

I play them with TL-HB's :)

 

Wouldn't change this either, cause they get still targeted, even when they only have a TL-HB.

 

Edit: I didn't mean I don't want ASM in razors cause of the razors btw, but because of the ASM.

 

Ah, of course. Should have paid more attention to the points.. :yes:

 

I think the TLLC deserves consideration in 6th. With fast plus 48" you'll outrange most things, can put the hurt on anything and the assault squad could always ride in a raven for late game obj capping or maybe man a quadgun. The empty razors can also screen or taxi Mephistion if needed.

[Drunken Angel]

You run into that assault issue again, you cant disembark anything from a razor and then assault, their best used as a screen I am liking the TLLC though

[knife&fork]

You run into that assault issue again, you cant disembark anything from a razor and then assault, their best used as a screen I am liking the TLLC though

 

Putting meph inside a razor is only for special cases. Maybe you need to get him somewhere else fast but your powers are blocked. Or if you are playing against DE or Nids and he's in danger from massed poisoned shooting. Won't come up all that often but it's a nice option to have.

[Deschenus Maximus]

-Assault Marines in Razorbacks are highly lacking. They're low priority, which is nice and all, but firing 1 plasmagun each turn just isn't much of course. I wish they had bolters really badly. Or being cheaper.

 

The way you set up your ASM, I think you would have had more success with 2 x 10 Tacticals w/ plasma gun and plasma cannon in bolterbacks. You get bolters 8 bolters in your Razor squads and some backfield scorers that can reach out and touch someone. And you have 60 spare points to add something else to you force.

 

-Fast Rhinos/Razors aren't really usefull in 6th tbh, not when you factor in the premium you pay for it. (5 GH's with plasmagun in a razor is 125 for example, cheaper and with bolters). Why? Because you wanna disembark as soon as possible in this edition. Not being able contest with them, not being able to charge the next turn from it, damage results affecting passengers heavily.... It's rarely usefull to move 24" with them.

 

I'm going to have to challenge that. If you have bolters and plasma, then yeah, you probably do want to get out earlier rather than later. But squads that only have short range weaponry don't benefit from that overly much. I know you don't like plasmabacks anymore… but they are quite good, actually. You should seriously try them for a fair few games (like, 20+) before writing them off.

[First0f0ne]

I also dislike ASM, they do deep strike melta really well, and they ane mobile scoring with JPs but otherwise I think they suck.

 

It looks to me like you are running them like a tac squads. Then complaining they dont have bolters like tacs do. Swap over to tacs, I see a lot of 5th edition in your list.

 

I agree that with the kind of list you are running that GK do it better with BA allies.

 

My last two games, I've been running DC and a DC dread for troops, thats from the BA dex. I ally in IG platoon(s) for a slew of cheap long range or durable scoring units. I was sceptical at first but it has worked thus far very well. Cherry pick the good/fun stuff from the BA dex to fit my game plan and leave out the rubbish.

[Zhukov]

The way you set up your ASM, I think you would have had more success with 2 x 10 Tacticals w/ plasma gun and plasma cannon in bolterbacks. You get bolters 8 bolters in your Razor squads and some backfield scorers that can reach out and touch someone. And you have 60 spare points to add something else to you force.

Yes you get 8 bolters, but only 2x5 marines to deploy from a razor, which is not quite enough.

 

And let's face it: Tacticals are far from great, they just show limited ASM are. See any tournament list allying Tacticals? ^^

Not only that, but they pay 15 points more for a transport too. It's kinda sad.

 

But maybe I'll try it. Can remove the hurricane bolters so I have enough points left to buy the GH squads 2 razors or rhinos.

 

I'm going to have to challenge that. If you have bolters and plasma, then yeah, you probably do want to get out earlier rather than later. But squads that only have short range weaponry don't benefit from that overly much. I know you don't like plasmabacks anymore… but they are quite good, actually. You should seriously try them for a fair few games (like, 20+) before writing them off.

Bolterbacks get destroyed, I don't see why Plasmabacks wouldn't. I don't doubt the effectiveness of the Plasmaback, being able to move 12" and fire both weapons is amazing. I doubt the survivability of them.

 

It looks to me like you are running them like a tac squads. Then complaining they dont have bolters like tacs do. Swap over to tacs, I see a lot of 5th edition in your list.

It looks 5th edition to you maybe, but if you look closer that's not the case: The weapon loadouts I chose for the Razor and ASM apply 6th edition tactics. I tried doing it with tacticals, but they're too expensive.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Yes you get 8 bolters, but only 2x5 marines to deploy from a razor, which is not quite enough.

 

I just noticed your Hunters don't have Rhinos. I suppose those were your backfield scorers? They are far better at moving forward and taking objectives than Razor ASM are in the 6th ed context, so as sad as it is, its probably best to switch around the roles: Wolves capture, Bloods hold the rear.

 

And let's face it: Tacticals are far from great, they just show limited ASM are. See any tournament list allying Tacticals? ^^

 

Tacs aren't the be-all, end-all of Troops choices, but they do supplement your scoring potential effectively-ish.

 

Not only that, but they pay 15 points more for a transport too. It's kinda sad.

 

On a Rhino, lasback or bolterback, that is wasteful, imo, but on the other Razor variants, it is well worth it for the increased effectiveness.

 

But maybe I'll try it. Can remove the hurricane bolters so I have enough points left to buy the GH squads 2 razors or rhinos.

 

You don't even need to drop the hurricanes:

 

Mephiston 250

Libririan; 100

Rune Priest; 100

10 GH’s; 2x plasma, Rhino 195

10 GH’s; 2x plasma, Rhino 195

10 Tacs, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Bolterback 240

10 Tacs, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Bolterback 240

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

Stormraven 230

1750 on the nose

 

Bolterbacks get destroyed, I don't see why Plasmabacks wouldn't. I don't doubt the effectiveness of the Plasmaback, being able to move 12" and fire both weapons is amazing. I doubt the survivability of them.

 

That was the main point of the YTTH article I linked in 3++ a few days ago: this didn't change from 5th ed - back then they just died to mass melta rather than plasma attrition. The tactics have changed, not the inevitability of seeing your vehicles dead. On the upside, you are less likely to get stunlocked all game thanks to the new glancing rules.

[Zhukov]

I just noticed your Hunters don't have Rhinos. I suppose those were your backfield scorers? They are far better at moving forward and taking objectives than Razor ASM are in the 6th ed context, so as sad as it is, its probably best to switch around the roles: Wolves capture, Bloods hold the rear.

No, they usually move into midfield. Libby/Priest can't be in the squads if you want to put them in a rhino, that's the main problem with your idea about rhinos for the GH's.

 

On a Rhino, lasback or bolterback, that is wasteful, imo, but on the other Razor variants, it is well worth it for the increased effectiveness.

And I doubt the viability of Las/Plas Backs, so it comes down to that discussion again.

 

That was the main point of the YTTH article I linked in 3++ a few days ago: this didn't change from 5th ed - back then they just died to mass melta rather than plasma attrition. The tactics have changed, not the inevitability of seeing your vehicles dead. On the upside, you are less likely to get stunlocked all game thanks to the new glancing rules.

It has changed. That mass melta normally didn't count for turn 1. People can now take out Rhinos/Razors reliably, from range, from turn 1 onwards.

[Xenith]

What is the librarian doing in this list? There's 450pts of psyker there, Id drop him. Your original list had nobody that was worth prescience-ing, aside from the attack bikes, but the 100 spent could just buy 2 more bikes.

 

Id try and get a priest in there to hide in a razor and FNP up the firebase.

[Zhukov]

What is the librarian doing in this list? There's 450pts of psyker there, Id drop him. Your original list had nobody that was worth prescience-ing, aside from the attack bikes, but the 100 spent could just buy 2 more bikes.

Libby leads the other GH squad. Divination works just fine on full GH squads and makes them Ld 10 too.

[Deschenus Maximus]

No, they usually move into midfield. Libby/Priest can't be in the squads if you want to put them in a rhino, that's the main problem with your idea about rhinos for the GH's.

 

I think you are overestimating the importance of "only" having ld 8. The 6th ed morale/regrouping rules are much more forgiving than 5th ed's, and while the extra reliability of Ld 9/10 for Counter-Attack is nice, I don't think its so important you have to give up a great deal of mobility and protection for it.

 

In any case, if you MUST have characters leading the Hunters, replace the BA libby with 2 Sang Priests. Each one hops in with a Razor Tac Squad, but when they disembark, they leave the Tacs to join the Hunters. "Problem" solved.

 

Personnaly, I think its entirely unecessary.

 

It has changed. That mass melta normally didn't count for turn 1. People can now take out Rhinos/Razors reliably, from range, from turn 1 onwards.

 

They get a single extra turn - hardly cause for such negative sentiments. Besides, with Nightfighting being more prevalent on T1, and premeasuring, and the 48" range on the las, you can, if you so wish, avoid a LOT of the long range firepower heading your way, especially in the sideway deployment scheme.

[Morollan]

What is the librarian doing in this list? There's 450pts of psyker there, Id drop him. Your original list had nobody that was worth prescience-ing, aside from the attack bikes, but the 100 spent could just buy 2 more bikes.

Libby leads the other GH squad. Divination works just fine on full GH squads and makes them Ld 10 too.

 

Personally I'd ditch the Librarian in favour of a couple of priests. You've got 20 assault marines who would have a better chance of doing something useful with FNP/FC. Plus with 2 Priests you should be able to cover all your ASM, the Attack Bikes and also Mephiston, for whom FNP is a real bonus.

[the jeske]

but FC doesnt do much this edition . yes you are striking at str 5 , but without the +1I your striking at the same time as other meq and a single priest can be singled out in combat giving up first blood + it is a hth upgrade and hth upgrades arent that good in 6th.

 

Zhukov have you thought about switching this to SW main and BA ally . you would lose the MM attack bikes[am not saying that this doesnt hurt].

 

Although you would have to run one GH squad less then you run RAS , that may drop the list efficiency . And you would become more static , because of the LF run instead of MM attack bikes.

[Morollan]

but FC doesnt do much this edition . yes you are striking at str 5 , but without the +1I your striking at the same time as other meq and a single priest can be singled out in combat giving up first blood + it is a hth upgrade and hth upgrades arent that good in 6th.

 

He's running 4 Razorbacks and 2 x 2 Attack Bikes. So giving up First Blood will no longer be a consideration by the time the RAS make it into assault. And having priests not only boosts the offensive capability but also provides FNP, which is useful not only in assault but also against shooting.

[Zhukov]

I think you are overestimating the importance of "only" having ld 8.

Ld10 instead of ld8 is just a little extra, the main reason I did it like this was so I had a Divination psycher in both squads. Squad gets a major buff this way, while the Libby/Rune Priest had a safe place to stay. I like soft characters like that less in a 5 man squad. Makes me feel uncomfortable :P

 

And running Libby/Rune Priest/Mephy was a test. Could have run 2 extra Bikes, or Corbulo, or Long Fangs or scouts or whatever instead.

 

They get a single extra turn - hardly cause for such negative sentiments. Besides, with Nightfighting being more prevalent on T1, and premeasuring, and the 48" range on the las, you can, if you so wish, avoid a LOT of the long range firepower heading your way, especially in the sideway deployment scheme.

You're only replying to half of what I say ;) It's about the fact that transports can get taken out reliably now. This is huge for me.

 

Tbh, I think it also has to do with the terrain in this godforsaken country I play in. I have to assume I sometimes get terrible tables, in which case my Razors always end up blocking LoS to Mephy and Attack Bikes. So they're out in the open and get killed turn 1. My Razors are usually mobile terrain and so I want them cheap.

 

Personally I'd ditch the Librarian in favour of a couple of priests. You've got 20 assault marines who would have a better chance of doing something useful with FNP/FC. Plus with 2 Priests you should be able to cover all your ASM, the Attack Bikes and also Mephiston, for whom FNP is a real bonus.

Didn't like Priests much in 5th and that hasn't really changed. If you wanna cover your stuff with their bubbles it usually means you limit your own movement freedom, I hate playing like that. Then you gotta make sure they can't get LoS to him and his squad with a lot of shooting, or else he just gets killed. (5 man squads aren't particularly good at protecting a 1 wound IC)

 

Zhukov have you thought about switching this to SW main and BA ally . you would lose the MM attack bikes[am not saying that this doesnt hurt].

 

Although you would have to run one GH squad less then you run RAS , that may drop the list efficiency . And you would become more static , because of the LF run instead of MM attack bikes.

I did, also cause I actually had SW 2 years ago or so. Don't really like the army, never liked Long Fangs. (or devastators in general) Personal preference kind of thing ;)

[Deschenus Maximus]

Ld10 instead of ld8 is just a little extra, the main reason I did it like this was so I had a Divination psycher in both squads. Squad gets a major buff this way, while the Libby/Rune Priest had a safe place to stay. I like soft characters like that less in a 5 man squad. Makes me feel uncomfortable :)

 

And running Libby/Rune Priest/Mephy was a test. Could have run 2 extra Bikes, or Corbulo, or Long Fangs or scouts or whatever instead.

 

Any of these options would be an improvement, imo.

 

 

You're only replying to half of what I say :huh: It's about the fact that transports can get taken out reliably now. This is huge for me.

 

Mass meltaguns were pretty darn reliable at killing armour, in my experience.

 

The 6th ed changes have meant, as far as my experience is involved, that if my opponent wants a specific rhino/razor dead, it will usually die. The flipside though, is that while it was usually very very common to have half or more of my Razors stunlocked every turn in 5th, now all (or the very vast majority) of my non-dead Razors are firing every turn. The design studio said that they wanted vehicles to die more reliably, but be more effective while they are alive, and in my experience, they have succeeded.

 

Tbh, I think it also has to do with the terrain in this godforsaken country I play in. I have to assume I sometimes get terrible tables, in which case my Razors always end up blocking LoS to Mephy and Attack Bikes. So they're out in the open and get killed turn 1. My Razors are usually mobile terrain and so I want them cheap.

 

Have you considered running a heavy mech list? Land Raiders are much more usuable now, and don't care as much about being in the open.

[Bartali]

^^^^ The problem of vehicles in 6th has got nothing to with hull points and survivability. The real problem is that they can't deny/contest, and squads have to disembark transports to do so. Infantry on the whole dies like flies in sixth, so you therefore need more infantry compared to 5th.

 

Get as many infantry as you think you need to be hanging around turn 5-7, then fill your boots if with vehicles if you like. Who cares if vehicles aren't around at the end of the game ?

[Deschenus Maximus]

^^^^ The problem of vehicles in 6th has got nothing to with hull points and survivability. The real problem is that they can't deny/contest, and squads have to disembark transports to do so. Infantry on the whole dies like flies in sixth, so you therefore need more infantry compared to 5th.

 

Get as many infantry as you think you need to be hanging around turn 5-7, then fill your boots if with vehicles if you like. Who cares if vehicles aren't around at the end of the game ?

 

Agreed. If you have enough infantry to score the final touchdown, it doesn't matter that the vehicles die along the way.

 

Personnaly, I think they should have made it that any vehicle of the "Tank" or "Walker" type can still at least contest. Its kinda hard to claim you've secured an objective when there's a live T-72 not five feet away from you...

[the jeske]

Mass meltaguns were pretty darn reliable at killing armour, in my experience.

there were slight problems with getting them in to range against other sm armies . because if you moved your meltas werent in range , but his after movment were .

[Deschenus Maximus]

Mass meltaguns were pretty darn reliable at killing armour, in my experience.

there were slight problems with getting them in to range against other sm armies . because if you moved your meltas werent in range , but his after movment were .

 

So he blows up your rhino in his turn, and then you blow up his (now in range) during yours. The end result is the same - dead vehicles turn 2.

[Zhukov]

All right, you convinced me I should try it at least. I'll try to run a a list with Las/Plas Razors after the Christmas holidays :unsure:

 

And yeah, I considered a heavy mech list (got a Land Raider/Preds/Baal Preds so can run anything I want), forgot why I dismissed it. I think I just couldn't make a list I liked. (probably lacked something, be it bodies or anti-infantry or anti-flier)