Expunged for Being Pacifists?

[Emperor's Furor]

Do you think it's possible one of the Lost Legions were "lost" because their Primarch was essentially a pacifist? While he probably began fighting the crusade, it was against his conscious and eventually he refused to fight any more, at least fight anything remotely human?

[Greyshift]

I'm no fluff master but I'd say no. All the HH novels I've read to date (im still catching up) say how the marine's crave battle as that is their original and only purpose in life, if their gene seed is sourced from their primarch then that would imply that they too lust for battle, potentially much more so.

[Emperor's Furor]

Still what if they where warrior monks like the Sohei? They still have the warrior intuition but then add the Primarch who was pretty reluctant, could spawn a pretty pacifist like legion?

[Nova_Dew]

Problem is the Primarchs were engineered to be aggressive and for combat to feel natural to them

[Greyshift]

The problem I have is that the emperor created the primarchs to lead their legions on the great crusade, using force to obtain compliance if necessary, so why create a pacifist for such a role?

[Emperor's Furor]

Lorgar wasn't exactly martial was he? Magnus was more psychically powerful than physically powerful. Don't forget the planets they landed on had big influences on them, so no matter what he was built for the culture would have a great deal in the way of shaping his thoughts, opinions, points of view

 

Perhaps an additional problem if being pacifist wasn't a good enough reason, was that like the Buddhist culture, meditation was a key part of their life and maybe this added to the psyker gene allowed them to be manipulated by chaos and maybe the Emperor got wind of what they were planning, as opposed to being blinded during the actual heresy period. This could link in with Dorn's thoughts about should of seen this coming or Horus thinking about the lost legions during his visions.

 

That's only me adding another potential aspect, the original idea of a Primarch refusing to fight against fellow humans is what I'm really contemplating. The legion may not of been destroyed, it may of just been outcast, sent into the void or something upon pain of execution if they should return.

[LordEnki]

The Thunder Warriors were meant purely for battle, and they were meant to (and for the most part, DID) die before the Great Crusade. The Primarchs, and by extension, the Spess Mehreens, were meant to be humanity's protectors, and leaders. OP's idea is certainly possible, if somewhat unlikely. But so is the Emperor being dumb enough to constantly snub and with hold very important intel his demi-god children/generals.

 

Lets say they were meant to be the moderates, to mix with mortals in a way like the Salamanders do, meant to help logistics like the ultra-smurfs do, BUT let's say like so often, things didn't go quite to plan. So instead of being inclined towards defensive and reactionary actions, they outright refuse offensive action. Now, that is NOT pacifism, it's being anti-war, but many people have trouble telling one from the other.

[Grotsmasha]

I'd say plausible, in fact it's an idea I've posited a few times throughout the years.

 

So, Primarchs gain their "humanity" (for lack of a better word) from their adoptive parents and societies. Where this society was "good and wholesome" the Primarch complied, where the society was not good and wholesome the Primarch strove to bring that "good and wholesome". So, in that context, I believe a Primarch raised by a society who believed words before action, diplomacy before war, stood a good chance a being more likely to choose compliance through diplomacy, going to great lengths to avoid violence at any cost.

 

This could have led to chastisement, in a similar vein to Lorgar, where the Emperor brings in another Legion (probably the 1st, the Emps chosen Legion prior the Lion being found) to forcefully and mercilessly comply the system the 2nd had spent more than a year attempting to diplomatically secure compliance. Seeing the death and destruction wrought at the Emperors command, purely for expediance, the 2nd voicing his outrage and disgust in a personal message to the Emperor, set his fleet for beyond Imperial space and vanishes from history.

 

Anyhoo, thats my bit, cheers,

Jono

[pingo]

It seems to me from what I recall of the background that few Primarchs actively sought out battle, but rather resorted to it when they felt it was the most expedient way to bring the Imperial Truth to the galaxy. The best analogy I can think of is that of a paramedic (or EMT). They might really enjoy their work, but they don't exactly deliberately create situations in which they can use their skills. Not that they need to; their skill will always be required eventually. A lot of Primarchs were like this with regards to war. Sure, they enjoyed it, but most were warriors rather than warmongers. Most, that is, not all -_-

 

In the 30K universe, people tend to think of war a lot differently than we do. It's more or less a fact of life for the Great Crusade (note: notice the name). At best, they'll see it as a necessary evil, much like we might feel about pest control. Sure, I don't want the rat to die, but I want even less for him to eat my food and crap in my muesli. It's an unpleasant means to an end.

 

Interestingly, by the time of 40K, people are must more partisan. If I were like them, I'd just want the rat dead just because it's a rat.

 

Anyway, this is why I find your idea of a pacifist in a 30K setting quite interesting and novel. In fact, I think the idea has legs in this arena, whereas for 40K I don't think it fits nearly so well.

 

So what of a pacifist Primarch? Could such a thing exists in principle?

 

Each of the Primarchs embodies some aspect of the Emperor. This much we know, as it's explicitly stated in the Black Library Horus Heresy novels. So, given that, perhaps the question should be; "is pacifism an aspect of the Emperor's personality?"

 

The track record doesn't look good on that regard, though he did spend tens of thousands of years not being the Emperor as we know him, so maybe he was spending that time making toys for blind orphans or nursing sick kittens, though I guess it's not so likely. Also, how could he be a pacifist, yet lead armies? However, the Emperor is so ridiculously awesome at everything and full of contradictions, who's to say that something couldn't be an aspect of his personality? And would the Emperor's galaxy not have use for a peacemaker? The Emperor figured it would have use for a politician, a poet, a strategist, a mystic, an executioner, a living weapon, a protector, an angel, a perfect man, and other such nebulous things.

 

As I think you have identified in your OP, it would be odd for the Emperor to create a pacifist them give him an army to lead. And as we know, the Primarchs were not only shaped by the Emperor, but also by their upbringings*. Perhaps a Primarch embodying some less martial aspect of the Emperor could have had an upbringing that interacted with that in some fashion to produce a pacifist. I wouldn't say this was beyond the possible.

 

I guess then, the next question would be whether that would warrant that Primarch and his legion being "lost", as you say. It doesn't quite sit right with me that they might have been destroyed, though it could be that the Emperor saw them as useless to his Crusade if they would not fight and decided to rid himself of them. Alternatively, it might be a fun idea if the Primarch turned his face from the Emperor because he disagreed with his aims. This would not be a martial rebellion (obviously ... he's a pacifist!) but rather a matter of refusing to fight, leaving the Crusade, the Imperium, and his father, peacefully. As we know from the Horus Heresy, a Primarch turning his back on his father is abhorrent to those Primarchs loyal to the Emperor and may be used to explain why this Primarch and his legion are never spoken of. The ultimate black sheep of the family.

 

Anyway, this is all quite a fun idea though I'm not sure how one would justify fighting tabletop battles with an army of pacifists, but it's your dime you do as you please :D

 

And ... many would venture that the two missing Legions are best left alone as nothing anyone could ever create for them would be better than never knowing who they were or what happened to them. Sometimes no story is the best story, as weird as that might sound.

 

 

 

*Although, it may be argued that their upbringings were of the Emperor's design rather than happenstance.

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah it was a far flung idea, it really sprang from the idea of an orange legion to the fact buddhist monks wear an orange like colour and maybe a legion based on their culture would work. I guess "pacifist" is a bit of a strong term to use, I'm more leaning to them showing a lot of restraint or a more extreme version of the empathy Vulkan showed.

 

I did some research upon the culture of warrior monks and came up with this from the spiritual warrior page on wikipedia:

 

"The term spiritual warrior is used in Buddhism for one who combats the universal enemy: self-ignorance (avidya), the ultimate source of suffering according to Buddhist philosophy.[1] Different from other paths, which focus on individual salvation, the spiritual warrior's only complete and right practice is that which compassionately helps other beings with wisdom. This is the Bodhisattva ideal (the "Buddha-in-waiting"), the spiritual warrior who resolves to attain buddhahood in order to liberate others.[2][3] The term is also used generically in esotericism and self-help literature.[4]"

 

Now if you apply that to a Primarch and his philosophy, I think it could be quite interesting. It ties in with the Great Crusade because it's a philosophy of bringing wisdom to the people but that gets severed by the idea of compassionately doing it to liberate others. Maybe at first the Primarch accepted his position and did it his way, but (like Lorgar) was taking to long or being to lenient to worlds etc and eventually the Primarch decided enough is enough, told the Emperor to shove his crusade (not quite in those words of course -_-) and departed. We know venturing outside of the galaxy is possible, didn't the new space sharks do that? Ain't the Tyranids coming from there? Maybe the legion upped and left with a great deal of it's support fleet including Army etc and went to find a new galaxy to settle or something.

 

Edit: Maybe the restraint the Emperor showed to Horus could be the aspect this Primarch had, maybe the restraint to censor Lorgar for ages as well as Magnus etc could also be included in this. They are also apparently the protectors of the Buddha.

 

Edit2: Additionally I was looking for symbols etc to do with a more warring side of Buddhism and came across the Naga which is a dragon or great snake in Buddhist religion which could be a great symbol or setting for a name etc.

[jeremy1391]

The problem I have is that the emperor created the primarchs to lead their legions on the great crusade, using force to obtain compliance if necessary, so why create a pacifist for such a role?

 

Lorgar did not like fighting, nor did Magnus.

[E.G.J.]

I like the idea!

 

Moreover, he/they wouldn't necessarily have to be a pacifist either, but simply not want to fight for "the cause" of the Great Crusade. All it would take would be for one of the primarchs to think the end didn't justify the means. I can see a primarch going along with Big E only to get disillusioned with the enterprise after a few years. A refusal to continue could very well have resulted in censure.

 

Based on the conversation between Dorn and Malcador in Mechanicum I got the impression that the lost primarchs were still alive, so I've always imagined that their censure was not due to malice from the Emperor.

 

This type of circumstance fits the bill in my book.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The problem I have is that the emperor created the primarchs to lead their legions on the great crusade, using force to obtain compliance if necessary, so why create a pacifist for such a role?

 

Lorgar did not like fighting, nor did Magnus.

Lorgar just didn't think he was any good at it compared to his brothers. He let an armed rebellion/holy war on his home world, lol.

[jeremy1391]

Lorgar stated that he despised war.

[E.G.J.]

Lorgar stated that he despised war.

 

 

But even so, he still did it. Albeit slowly and with less gusto than his brothers......until after Monarchia anyway. After that he went from slow to KILL!

[AGPO]

I can see this working well as a concept. The Primarch embodies the Emperor as the diplomat and reconciler, having been raised in a civilisation that emphasises empathy and tolerance, somewhat like the Interex. At first the Primarch serves the Emperor in this regard, pacifiying worlds through the force of his diplomacy and using war as a last resort. However the more he sees of the likes of Angron the more disenchanted he becomes with the whole Crusade. He sets off with his legion to the outer fringes to act as true defenders of humanity and live in peace, swearing never to return to the Imperium.

[Onisuzume]

So what of a pacifist Primarch? Could such a thing exists in principle?

 

Each of the Primarchs embodies some aspect of the Emperor. This much we know, as it's explicitly stated in the Black Library Horus Heresy novels. So, given that, perhaps the question should be; "is pacifism an aspect of the Emperor's personality?"

 

The track record doesn't look good on that regard, though he did spend tens of thousands of years not being the Emperor as we know him, so maybe he was spending that time making toys for blind orphans or nursing sick kittens, though I guess it's not so likely. Also, how could he be a pacifist, yet lead armies? However, the Emperor is so ridiculously awesome at everything and full of contradictions, who's to say that something couldn't be an aspect of his personality? And would the Emperor's galaxy not have use for a peacemaker? The Emperor figured it would have use for a politician, a poet, a strategist, a mystic, an executioner, a living weapon, a protector, an angel, a perfect man, and other such nebulous things.

Sometimes, one must do something that one loathes because one realises that it is necessary to do so.

Inquisitors know that they must sometimes condamn entire planets to Exterminatus Extremis because they have no other choice to protect to Imperium.

 

That sort of thing.

Primarchs, with their supposed superior intellect should realise that.

Corax knew when he rebuilt his legion after Istvaan.

 

So even if one of the missing primarchs was opposed to fighting humans, there were also plenty of aliens and other non-humans left to fight, so he would at least have had some use. Additionally, the Ultramarines codex mentions that the missing two legions likely fought for Horus at the beginning of the Heresy, although it isn't very certain about that.

[dracpanzer]

In the "Lightning Tower" pg 158,

"The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

 

Statues were raised for them at one point in a place of honor amongst their brothers. Would be hard to imagine that they were so honored for basket weaving and squirrel loving. The second half of the paragraph would seem to imply that whatever went wrong with those two Primarchs could possibly be seen as a warning for Horus's betrayal.

 

One legion casting aside its loyalties could easily be covered up once people got around to not talking about it for 50 years. Abnett uses the term "seperate tragedies" so whatever they did, they weren't in it together.

[Emperor's Furor]

All the Primarchs had statues erected in the Emperor's Palace, no matter what, just as there were 20 rooms for Primarchs in Deliverance Lost.

[StrayCatt]

There are a few interesting tidbits in Betrayer. There it is mentioned that Angron is the only Primarch to refuse his father's offer. So the guesses that the two missing brothers refused thier roles is eliminated. There is also the story of The Night of the Wolf (or Wolves), in which Russ confronts Angron in an attempt to sanction him over the use of the Butchers Nails. This may be the occasion that was referenced in earlier HH novels when referring to the SW as the Emperor's ultimate sanction.

[Emperor's Furor]

Well he might not of known about the other Primarchs, it stands to reason not all of them were around when they where, also he may of been the only one to refuse the Emperor at the outset, which still opens the possibility of refusing him later on.

[E.G.J.]

In the "Lightning Tower" pg 158,

"The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

 

Statues were raised for them at one point in a place of honor amongst their brothers. Would be hard to imagine that they were so honored for basket weaving and squirrel loving. The second half of the paragraph would seem to imply that whatever went wrong with those two Primarchs could possibly be seen as a warning for Horus's betrayal.

 

How does that last sentence imply that it was a warning for Horus' betrayal? It could be a warning for just about anything. The quote does not say. It does not even imply. It simply postulates that maybe what happened to the primarchs should serve as a warning. But a warning for what? Not to meddle with chaos? Not to force your sons to do something they don't really want to do? Not to leave primarchs unattended to run the Great Crusade? Not to let primarchs eat split pea soup?

 

The quote does not say anything about what happened to them....only that they were separate tragedies (but tragedies to whom?). We should be really careful about taking what tidbits the BL authors throw us as hooks too far.

[Veteran Sergeant]

The hardest part about answering this question is that because the II and XI do not exist, and have not ever existed, their fluff is woefully incomplete and full of inconsistencies.

 

What we "know" about them is that they were discovered very early in the Crusade (likely among the first six or seven primarchs found, after Horus, Dorn and Guilliman at least, but well before Corax or Angryon), that many of their brothers never met them, and that whatever had happened to them is deemed to be tragic.

 

Tragic doesn't necessarily mean that they did anything "wrong". They could have just been corrupted somehow, that was either instantly recognizable, or manifested itself very quickly. The problem is, because some of the other primarchs had serious behavioral issues (Curze, Angryon, for example), whatever it was had to be considerably beyond their control. I'd suggest it had to be some kind of obvious mutation or other corruption that would have led to a very quick dissolution of their legions, and a coverup.

 

Again though, your problem is that because they don't actually exist, the fluff about them often doesn't mesh together. People need to recognize that what is written in one book will conflict with stuff written in other books, because anything that is written about them is entirely made up by the author doing it. The "rules" GW seems to have for the II and XI is "They are gone, and nobody talks about them". And that's what they are, in whole. Just a narrative hook. There isn't any official fluff being hidden from us. The official fluff is that there is no fluff. At one time, they still existed because Priestley said the original thought behind them was that they had been erased as a reward, not a punishment. The problem is, that version of the story (and it was never official, it was just something Priestley said in an interview) became impossible once the Horus Heresy became more than "A battle once fought so long ago nobody remembers everything that happened." We now know pretty much everything that happened, and the II and XI were definitely not there for it.

 

While the idea of them being expunged for being pacifists is novel, and certainly not "disproven" (again because the only thing that is "true" is that they are gone), I think it conflicts with too much of the established chatter about them. It seems fairly "clear" that they were found and that something was "wrong" with them, not that they refused to be generals.

[E.G.J.]

The hardest part about answering this question is that because the II and XI do not exist, and have not ever existed, their fluff is woefully incomplete and full of inconsistencies.

 

Again though, your problem is that because they don't actually exist, the fluff about them often doesn't mesh together. People need to recognize that what is written in one book will conflict with stuff written in other books, because anything that is written about them is entirely made up by the author doing it. The "rules" GW seems to have for the II and XI is "They are gone, and nobody talks about them". And that's what they are, in whole. Just a narrative hook. There isn't any official fluff being hidden from us.

 

While the idea of them being expunged for being pacifists is novel, and certainly not "disproven" (again because the only thing that is "true" is that they are gone), I think it conflicts with too much of the established chatter about them. It seems fairly "clear" that they were found and that something was "wrong" with them, not that they refused to be generals.

 

I agree and I disagree. We do "know" some things. We know that the lost legions were left out of the fluff by GW in order for hobbyists to create diy legions and fluff. This is quite clearly stated in the early incarnations of the game and universe. In fact, any statements to the contrary are coming from fans who wish to keep the legions unknown and/or secret. We know that the legions have been used as "hooks" by various BL authors and that these references are often vague and contradictory to one another.

 

Fear to Tread: Suggests the lost primarchs suffered from overt mutations as those (or worse) of Sangy.

 

Prospero Burns: Suggests Russ-Russ fought against them (although Betrayer may now imply it was actually against the WE).

 

Mechanicum: Suggests they may be alive enough to be brought back into the fold (admittedly my own interpretation of a vague reference)

 

The First Heretic: Suggests one or both legions were absorbed by the Ultras after whatever happened to their primarchs.

 

And that's just a few. If we were to list every single reference in the HH novels we are going to have all kinds of threads we could follow and interpret however we choose.

I note here that Veteran Sergeant's interpretation that there is something "wrong" with them may be loosely accurate depending on your interpretation of "wrong". It need not mean mutated or warp-touched by any means. It could be wrong in that they openly defied Big E. It could be that they got too big-headed for their own good. It could mean they were wrong about a word in scrabble. The point being that there is no preponderance of evidence any which way. For every reference that suggests one thing, there is one that suggests otherwise. Hence, nothing much has changed regarding the lost legions. They are as GW have always intended them (DIY potential) and until they explicitly say otherwise, that is all we have to go on. The rest is just BL baiting us with vague references.

 

For that reason I like it when people explore ideas that are more novel than the commonly assumed, mutated and/or turned to chaos.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I agree and I disagree. We do "know" some things. We know that the lost legions were left out of the fluff by GW in order for hobbyists to create diy legions and fluff. This is quite clearly stated in the early incarnations of the game and universe.

Are you so sure about that? I have copies of many of the old books, and they do clearly state that they had 1000 Chapters so that players could create their own Space Marines. That's as old as the original Rogue Trader book. I haven't seen any such statement about the missing legions. Just because players have always done that (making their guys the missing legion) doesn't mean that was the intention. I think people have just inferred that because the Legions were originally Chapters, that the same "rule" applies to II & XI. Of course, it may be like that one line in an ancient White Dwarf that fueled all the discussion about whether or not Mat Ward had written the Ultramarines into the Horus Heresy, lol. Turns out, Obi Wan Kenobi. What they were saying was true, from a certain point of view. And, like Obi Wan Kenobi, that meant it wasn't actually true. :devil: I mean, I have no emotional investment in it either way. If that was actually said, then cool. I just don't remember it.

 

I note here that Veteran Sergeant's interpretation that there is something "wrong" with them may be loosely accurate depending on your interpretation of "wrong".

I only meant that something was wrong with them, in the manner that it got them disbanded/expunged/destroyed and if they'd been "right", that wouldn't have happened. Like I had said in my post, the only things that are "fact" about the missing legions is that they were once in existence, and then they were not, and people aren't supposed to talk about them.