Ironclads with Chainfists

[Creeger]

I’m looking for a little help with the interaction of two rules on an Ironclad Dreadnaught. I just got one of these bad boys and I’m getting ready to assemble it. Before construction begins, I want to make sure I model the weapons load out to suit me.

 

Here’s the meat of the problem:

The marine codex page 137, under Ironclads, says, “Replace seismic hammer with chainfist….free”.

Page 60 of the core book, under chainfist, says, “melee, armorbane, specialist weapon, Unwieldy”

Page 42 of the core book, under specialist weapon, says, “a model with this weapon does not receive +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule” (a Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon is not listed as a Specialist Weapon)

Page 84 of the core book, under Walkers and Assaults, says, “If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 attack for each additional weapon.”

 

Simply put, I want to know if I take the chainfist, will the model have all 3 of its attacks or will I loss one attack to the Specialist rule?

It seems that the rules for walkers say I get the +1 for any melee weapon, and both Dreadnaught Close Combat weapons and Chainfists are listed as “melee”.

However, it also seems clear that the Specialist Weapon rule would not allow the extra attack as the DCCW is not a specialist weapon. Which rule wins? Unless I’m missing something, these two rules seem to conflict with each other.

[YAK]

I cant recall exactly where and dont have my books with me at work... but i'm rather sure it works out so you get the 3 attacks still....

 

i ask you tho, why not just go with the sizemic hammer (it's basicly a thunder hammer for dreadnaughts) with a dreadnaught close combat weapon. that way you for sure get the 3 attacks. i'm pretty sure the ap of both is the same. also the sizemic hammer gets you a stunned or shaken (not sure witch) result if you don't blow the vehicule up... in addition to any other results you get. and with the stenght 10 of the dread you get a rather decent chance of getting a pen or at least a glance... not really sure if the 2D6 is needed...

 

just my thoughts...

[Creeger]

Well, I haven’t decided what I want to do yet. I stumbled on the above mentioned rules question before settling on a load out.

 

To answer your question, I’ve not decided against the chainfist out of hand because a dreadnaught with a seismic hammer only has a 33% chance to penetrate a Landraider. Whereas the same dreadnaught with a chainfist has somewhere around a 73% chance to penetrate armor 14.

 

Also, the seismic hammer doesn’t work like a thunder hammer. It just adds +1 to the damage results roll.

[alex567]

The specialist weapon rule sais, ""A model with this weapon does not receive +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule."

The Walker rule sais "If a walker is armed with two or more melee weapons, it gains +1 attack for each additional weapon."

You are not fighting witht two melee weapons, you are armed with two melee weapons as such you gain the +1 attack, i.e. because the iron clad has two melee weapons he gains +1 attack, but he hasn't yet chosen which to fight with. If I had a space marine armed with a power sword power fist and bolt pistol, If the rule said because I was armed with extra melee weapons I would get +1 attack even if I was striking with my power fist, but because I have to choose which to fight with I don't get +1 for choosing the power fist.

 

The difference being is that the marine is fighting with the weapons, but the dreadnaught is armed with the weapons.

[Creeger]

Ah! Good point, Alex! I missed that subtle difference in wording.

 

Well played sir, well played. :)

[carnosaur93]

isnt DCCW's simply powerfists, now, and walkers having a special rule that they ignore the "unwieldy" rule on weapons?

 

if so, then theres really not any problem at all, since you wil lbe having a chainfist and powerfist, both specialist weapons.

[alex567]

isnt DCCW's simply powerfists, now, and walkers having a special rule that they ignore the "unwieldy" rule on weapons?

 

No the rulebook states a dreadnaught close combat weapon as being ap2 and doubles your strength not actually being a power fist.

[carnosaur93]

isnt DCCW's simply powerfists, now, and walkers having a special rule that they ignore the "unwieldy" rule on weapons?

 

 

No the rulebook states a dreadnaught close combat weapon as being ap2 and doubles your strength not actually being a power fist.

 

ah, yes...

i was thinking of chaos dreads having lost all mentions of DCCWs and just using PFs instead, with the whole "ignores unwieldy"-thing. so it seems GW is slowly gunna outphase/replace it over the 15 or so years it will take to replace all the marine dexes, continually spawning confusion on the matter, especially once we move to 7th edition and still not all the marine dexes are even up to 6th yet, rather than just get it over with in a single Eretta-sweep

 

i mixed things up and forgot logic does not apply in the GW-rules development process...

[esteemed_vetran_lerozo]

Are you on about dreadnaughts with chainfists?

[PaganLinuxGeek]

Am I correct in thinking that an ironclad dreadnought cannot take TL-LC, MM, or Assault Cannon on right arm?

[Axagoras]

Yes you are, they can only take 2 DCCW

[tvih]

Yes you are, they can only take 2 DCCW

Well, actually Ironclads can also take a Hurricane Bolter. Not sure why anyone would want to, though. I'm just converting my Hurricane bolter into a Missile Launcher, seeing as my Venerable Dread didn't come with one.

[Varizel]

If i remember correctly brothers.... Ironclad Dreadnought isn't armed with DCCW.... it is armed with Power Fist and Seismic Hammer. Same with normal Dreadnought. It is armed with Power Fists nowadays. Only the older codex still has them equipped with DCCW. But the newer codex like Dark Angels and Space Marines, have them armed with Power Fist. Thus you will get your +1 attack with either seismic or chainfist, since both of them are specialist weapons.

 

PS: Whoops... holy necro... didn't realize it. Sorry bout that.

[Raeven]

Doesn't matter if it's a specialist weapon or not. It's a walker.

[Magpie]

I've not been able to find anything that exempts walkers from the specialist weapon rule

[alex567]

Wow, why are we resurrecting this thread? Read all the comments before posting, as I'm sure I already resolved this problem.

[Raeven]

Specialist weapon rule is different from the dreadnaught +1 per melee weapon rule. Just because they share the same profile for the weapon, means nothing when applying bonus attacks to dreadnaughts.

 

Walkers use a different set of rules than infantry. Specialist and unwieldy do not apply to them. Unwieldy becAuse it specifically states so in the rule. Specialist does not apply because Walkers use a completely different mechanic for getting bonus attacks.

 

Wow, why are we resurrecting this thread? Read all the comments before posting, as I'm sure I already resolved this problem.

But you didn't answer the question correctly. ;)

[Dam13n]

This isn't just threadomancy, but pointless threadomancy.

- I get that the person who did necro this thread did so by accident, but we don't need to go into this again, especially when it pertains to Ironclads, who can only have specialist weapons nowadays anyway, making this doubly pointless.

 

Walkers with a mix of specialist and non-specialist weapons have been discussed previously, more than once (mainly relating to Defilers with Power Scourges).

( main reference - http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278232-defiler-attacks/ )

 

The outcome has always been that:

 

- no, walkers are not exempt from the specialist weapon restriction on bonus attacks.

 

Permissive ruleset - models are only exempt from a rule if they (or their unit type) is listed as exempt.  Walkers are not listed as being immune to the restriction on Specialist Weapons conferring bonus attacks anywhere in the rules, so they aren't.  The only difference in the way they generate bonus attacks is that they can have more than +1 attack for more than two weapons, subject to the rules for those weapons.

[Raeven]

If you bothered to read the Specialist Weapon USR, you would see that it only applies in the case of using 2 weapons to get a bonus attack.  "A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

2 weapons.  Not 3 or 4, etc.

 

To repeat.  Specialist weapon USR only applies to the Rule on pg 28 that limits a model with more than one weapon to +1 attack.  Walker rule overrules pg 28 rule, so specialist weapon does not apply to Walkers.

[Magpie]

So what your saying is the dread won't get the extra attack if it has two weapons but will get it if it has 3 weapons?

All the Walker rule does is overrule the more than two weapons bit of the rule on Page 24, nothing overrules Specialist Weapon. 

But, as always a case can me made for either interpretation.

[Raeven]

I'm saying SW USR only applies to the base rule on pg. 24 which deals with +1 for 2 weapons (even if you have 4 arms with a sword in each).  Walkers override that base rule, creating an entirely different rule that the USR does not address in any manner what-so-ever.