DW Knights or DW command squad?

[Cypher 102]

I'm not really feeling the command squad. The main reason is that it will never be a scoring unit again. If I do anything with the command squad I'll probably skip the apothecary and use the standard to give a few squads feel no pain.

 

As for the Knights the toughness of five is a great counter for the thing that usually brings down my hammernator squads - the massed boltgun fire.

 

As for the regular Deathwing squads, one of the things I was hoping for was a reason to use my storm bolters again. Vengeful strike goes a long way towards that. I've been thinking about the move back to shooty terminators ever since the introduction of overwatch anyways.

[Haranin]

FNP Standard for the win. 85 points is alot; but the model can still have weapons, and its a 12 inch banner. That is alot of table!

[GlauG]

I took the DW banner for the +1 attack before (for Belial, as much as anything else; it was a nice edge in challenges. Still is, with a Fleshbane sword!), so I am not sure I would want to go the FNP banner route... Of course, I am also very fond of my customised Apothecary, who I sacrificed a Space Hulk Terminator to build. ;)

[Tiger9gamer]

The more I think about it, it seems that the DW command squad is kinda sucky. I can get the same number of guys with a DW squad for the same points, so I guess the only difference is the champ, but a TH/SS sergeant can pretty much do the same thing.

[AngelVeto]

well, the 4th ed codex had an errata that covered this:

 

Q. When I upgrade Deathwing and Ravenwing models to

Standard Bearers and/or Apothecaries, can they still use

items such as lightning claws, thunder hammers and storm

shields, assault cannons, meltaguns, flamers and plasma

guns? (p81)

A. Yes, because they are extraordinary individuals!

 

so I am assuming that we will see that clarified yet again. and if the chaos codex was any inclination we should see an errata within a week or two. so lets hope!

[Brother Immolator]

There is nothing to be FAQED IMHO. You need to sacrifice a PF to get the narthecium. If you have upgraded to chainfist as suggested, simply there is no Power fist to sacrifice therefore no apothecary. Its simple,plain and clear.

To think otherwise (with no disrespect meant, I use it as a figure of speech and not to insult anyone) is a tad bit childish:

''I swap ma powah fisty for a chainfisty so now I got no powah fisty to give for the apothucary but I get my fisty and the apothucary ''

How exactly? The rule demands a powah fisty....

Same for the PA bolty pistol. It needs to be swaped, you cant change it to plasma pistol and then say: Me no gots.

Also as to the FAQ: Other codex, other rules, other FAQ. Doesnt apply. Apparently they are not as extraordinary individuals as the previous batch

EDIT: POWAH FISTY!!!!!

EDIT 2: Furthure more the rule demands that the model to be swaped is a Powah fisty one, not a chain fisty. Its explisity (spelling) told so.

EDIT 3: I need to grow up a bit.

[Lion El Jason]

I am a bit annoyed by the apothecary thing, I have several, all converted to all the different options. I guess I will just have to not bother and use the 12" FnP Banner instead.

[Haranin]

I have one, fully magnetized. Magnets and Deathwing go together like peanut butter and chocolate.

[Chaplain Haladriel]

Anyone with the new DWK/DWC box yet? There are enough bitz to make either set. What additional parts would be needed to make both sets? Is it possible to go to one of the chop shop bitz sites and order 5 more legs and 5 more back plates from a terminator spru and put together the other 5?

 

I bought the Deathwing Assault Box set so 3XDW kits and there enough parts to sink a battle barge! You have enough pieces to build alot of Termies, but yes you do need legs/back plates. I have enough bits to customize alot of my pre codex termies!

[Bryan Blaire]

Agreed. I think some Terminators are about to have a "Wookie losing at djarik" moment: some arms are getting pulled out of their sockets!

 

The new units look very nice. I'm going to see how friendly they play with the legs and modified back plates from a Grey Knights set as well.

[Disruptor_fe404]

The robed torsos don't interface well with the Grey Knight legs, but for one of the Terminators I'm working on, I plan to solve that problem by filing down one of the guard plates on the Grey Knight legs.

 

Back plates should be fine, but I personally don't like the Grey Knight back plates for anything other than Terminator Librarians. Not imposing enough.

[Drunkspleen]

The Command Squad is great when you don't have Belial or Azmodai, but I think if I was using either of those 2 guys, I would leave the Command Squad at home unless I had my heart set on one of the banners, and opt for scoring terminators over the HQ, even despite the Champion having an amazing weapon for challenges and the potential for FNP.

 

I'm currently planning to take them out for their first spin with a TDA Librarian and have kept the unit fairly shooty because I don't want to bog down with storm shields to keep them alive and end up chasing after people all game, so I'm going for a Champion, an Apothecary, a TH/SS Guy with a Cyclone, and 2 normal SB/PF guys, the Librarian has a Combi-Plasma for what it's worth, hoping to get close enough to use that while he has vengeful strike for safety reasons,

[Tiger9gamer]

Think they are worth it in A land raider? And I think command squads could be good if you have them to use the Banner of devastation in a gunline. added toughness and buffs everyone else.

[Isiah]

I'm still slightly miffed that if I need either a DW Apothecary or a banner then I also need a non-scoring unit !! I guess I'll get over that -- but at 1500 points it's a big change to take onboard . But. I am liking the use of Sacred Standards with them as a general force multiplier :yes:.

Cheers

I

[Sarducci]

I stated this before on another topic, but I will do it here also. I take a command squad, and upgrade a Terminator so it now has a Heavy Flamer. Why can I not then upgrade him to an Apothocary? He still has a power fist to exchange for a Narthicium, and still sucks in CC. All i did was do one upgrade before another.

[Bryan Blaire]

I stated this before on another topic, but I will do it here also. I take a command squad, and upgrade a Terminator so it now has a Heavy Flamer. Why can I not then upgrade him to an Apothocary? He still has a power fist to exchange for a Narthicium, and still sucks in CC. All i did was do one upgrade before another.

If you give him a Heavy Flamer, then he must be a Deathwing Terminator. The Deathwing Apothecary is defined with a different Unit Type than a Deathwing Terminator (Infantry (Character) vs. Infantry respectively) and therefore, if you upgrade a Deathwing Terminator to a Deathwing Apothecary, he (at this time) seems to no longer qualify as a Deathwing Terminator to choose other options. Also, as he no longer has a Power Fist to upgrade to a Chainfist with.

 

Now, the Big Green Book doesn't really clarify the issue, because it states "They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and Wargear choices." Sadly, the portion after the comma doesn't actually give us much specifically, but the former portion could indicate that the "Character" appellation would actually not change his type at all.

 

Personally, I hope this gets FAQ'd soon.

[Sarducci]

I don't think you are getting my point. A Deathwing Terminator upgraded to a Deathwing Terminator with a Heavy Flamer is still a Deathwing Terminator, I just pay x points and exchange the storm bolter for a heavy flamer.. Then I upgrade a Deathwing Terminator who now happens to have a Heavy Flamer to an Apothocary, and the cost is simply x points, exchange power fist for narthicium, and exchange Deathwing Terminator (inf) to Deathwing Terminator Apothocary (char). I have met all the requirements from the codex. If the codex has said something to the effect of, "you may upgrade 1 Deathwing Terminator to a Deathwing Apothocary for x points and the Apothocary must be armed with a Narthecium and a Storm Bolter" I wouldn't be having this discussion. I am merely saying that right now, pending any FAQ/Errata/Ruling I can arm an Apothocary with an alternate weapon so long as I exchange the weapon prior to promoting to Apothocary status.

[cielaq]

Similar thing were discussed many times before, for example here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=264449&st=0

Long story short - it's not clear whether you can do the upgrades in sequence (first heavy weapon, then apothecary upgrade), or not (purchasing heavy weapon and apothecary upgrade happening at the same time). You can make argument either way.

[Ronin_eX]

Having just played a game with a Deathwing-heavy army. Here is how I will prioritize units in the future:

 

- The resilience of Deathwing Knights makes them, in my opinion, superb bodyguard material. I think that these guys will be my go-to close combat Deathstar in the future.

- Command squads are awesome support units but are pricey to turn in to traditional Deathstars because they are stuck at five guys. What they can do, is take banners. And this is where their strength is. In the same game I took the Standard of Fortitude and while it is pricey, it has easily saved 6-7 Deathwing in the first couple turns. It synergizes well with Knights because anything short of S10 is still giving them their FNP save. So if you have a unit of Knights on the field then if you have the points to spare, a banner-bearer Command Squad is a great plan.

- DO NOT NEGLECT TAKING LOTS OF DEATHWING: I made this mistake in the game I'm in. Most of us long-time Deathwing players will need to retrain ourselves to not think of anything in bone-armour (not counting Land Raiders and Dreads) as a scoring unit. I ended up losing both of my troops choices without even realizing it (got pinned in close combat by long challenges and blind-sided by other players in the same game).

 

But for me, Deathwing Knights are super-stars. They can increase squad size (I took six this game), they have a nasty limited-use attack (which I timed badly due to inexperience), and they are tough as all hell. Backed up with a SoF they become near-impregnable. They remind me a lot of Dwarf Ironbreakers from WFB, they are an awesome center-line unit that can hold against just about everything with the right support. But at the same time, don't forget to keep a decent troop compliment (still feel stupid for not using my last 249 points to grab another Deathwing squad to bring in).

 

Also, as a side note, the point cost drops across the board have really freed up space in my old 4E list. I went from being able to field three Ravenwing bikes (flimsy at best) to a full Ravenwing Attack Squad (including a load of upgrades). This has really opened up possibilities for lists if you play your cards right. I'm loving all this room to play with now. If you had told me that I would be able to field 20+ terminators and a full bike squad with proper amounts of support in our new codex I would have laughed it off. This is like Christmas in January!

[Isiah]

Show your list Ronin_eX

[Drunkspleen]

I don't think you are getting my point. A Deathwing Terminator upgraded to a Deathwing Terminator with a Heavy Flamer is still a Deathwing Terminator, I just pay x points and exchange the storm bolter for a heavy flamer.. Then I upgrade a Deathwing Terminator who now happens to have a Heavy Flamer to an Apothocary, and the cost is simply x points, exchange power fist for narthicium, and exchange Deathwing Terminator (inf) to Deathwing Terminator Apothocary (char). I have met all the requirements from the codex. If the codex has said something to the effect of, "you may upgrade 1 Deathwing Terminator to a Deathwing Apothocary for x points and the Apothocary must be armed with a Narthecium and a Storm Bolter" I wouldn't be having this discussion. I am merely saying that right now, pending any FAQ/Errata/Ruling I can arm an Apothocary with an alternate weapon so long as I exchange the weapon prior to promoting to Apothocary status.

 

No, you cannot do this, as an example I would cite the FAQ for the Ork Nobz unit which states the following:

 

"Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)

A: No."

 

While they don't go into the reasoning it is plainly the same situation. All those aforementioned upgrades are granted by the language "any Nob may take any of the following" and similarly, the Painboy rules are "One Nob may be a Painboy" much like our Deathwing Terminators become Deathwing Apothecaries.

 

It doesn't matter that you can purchase upgrades in any order, you can't purchase an upgrade that is only eligible for one specific type of model in the unit, then turn said model into a different type of model, he will then have illegal wargear and not be valid.

[EPK]

I don't think you are getting my point. A Deathwing Terminator upgraded to a Deathwing Terminator with a Heavy Flamer is still a Deathwing Terminator, I just pay x points and exchange the storm bolter for a heavy flamer.. Then I upgrade a Deathwing Terminator who now happens to have a Heavy Flamer to an Apothocary, and the cost is simply x points, exchange power fist for narthicium, and exchange Deathwing Terminator (inf) to Deathwing Terminator Apothocary (char). I have met all the requirements from the codex. If the codex has said something to the effect of, "you may upgrade 1 Deathwing Terminator to a Deathwing Apothocary for x points and the Apothocary must be armed with a Narthecium and a Storm Bolter" I wouldn't be having this discussion. I am merely saying that right now, pending any FAQ/Errata/Ruling I can arm an Apothocary with an alternate weapon so long as I exchange the weapon prior to promoting to Apothocary status.

 

No, you cannot do this, as an example I would cite the FAQ for the Ork Nobz unit which states the following:

 

"Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)

A: No."

 

While they don't go into the reasoning it is plainly the same situation. All those aforementioned upgrades are granted by the language "any Nob may take any of the following" and similarly, the Painboy rules are "One Nob may be a Painboy" much like our Deathwing Terminators become Deathwing Apothecaries.

 

It doesn't matter that you can purchase upgrades in any order, you can't purchase an upgrade that is only eligible for one specific type of model in the unit, then turn said model into a different type of model, he will then have illegal wargear and not be valid.

 

While I don't disagree with you, you can't really use another codices FAQ to justify this situation - especially with a reference where they don't even explain why. And even if you can do it, it still leaves you without a proper melee weapon for your Apothecary.

 

Show your list Ronin_eX

 

Yes, lets hear it!

[Isiah]

A Deathwing Terminator upgraded to a Deathwing Terminator with a Heavy Flamer is still a Deathwing Terminator, I just pay x points and exchange the storm bolter for a heavy flamer.. Then I upgrade a Deathwing Terminator who now happens to have a Heavy Flamer to an Apothocary, and the cost is simply x points, exchange power fist for narthicium, and exchange Deathwing Terminator (inf) to Deathwing Terminator Apothocary (char)

 

By RAW I'd agree but this certainly isn't RAI and needs to be added to the ongoing FAQ/errata topic. On the other hand -- go ahead and give your Apoth the weapon upgrade but under certain circumstances you might lose him and it in a challenge as an Apoth is a 'character' <_<.

[Ronin_eX]

This was my list:

HQ

Belial (190) - Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Librarian (120) - Terminator Armour, Infravisor, Lion's Roar

Deathwing Command Squad (340) - Deathwing Champion, 1 w/ Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, 3 w/ Lightning Claws, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Standard of Fortitude

ELITES

Deathwing Knight Squad (291) - 6 Deathwing Knights, Perfidious Relic of the Old Legion

TROOPS

Deathwing Terminator Squad (245) - Assault Cannon, Chainfist

Deathwing Terminator Squad (245) - Assault Cannon, Chainfist

FAST ATTACK

Ravenwing Attack Squad (356) - 6 Ravenwing Bikers (Add Vet. Sergeant), Attack Bike w/ Multi-melta, Land Speeder (Heavy Bolter & Assault Cannon), Plasma Gun, Meltagun

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad (200) - 10 Space Marines, 2 Plasma Cannons, 2 Missile Launchers

We just finished the game tonight (it was a big-arse 4-way game versus a horde-style Ork army spamming Cybork Bodies, Loganwing and a Black Templar army). I was probably a wee bit too bold and ended up DWAing my whole army on turn one right next to a gigantic Ardboy Cybork unit with MadDoc in it. My Vengeful Strike would have been punishing but his Orks had tons of stacking saves and he was on fire in the first turn.

Belial ended up getting turned in to a Squig by Zogwort (DAMN!!!!) but the Knights made a great account of themselves even when getting charged. The main flubs here were that the Ork player thought you could take a Cybork body on Zogwort (you could, thus he survived an attack that should have splatted him) and underestimating the un-augmented killing power of my Knights. Had I been more patient with them and saved Smite for the next turn then I could have used the Librarian to pop Prescience on them and make their attacks crazy.

The Champion in the Command Squad is a neat trick to pull. I4 S6 AP2 is a real killer in challenges, even against ICs. The Standard of Fortitude is insanely good. Until it finally went down in Turn 4, it had saved 8+ terminators from death. It was also a massive deterrent for even attacking the Knights (T5 FNP meant that no weapon in the game could deny them, so not even guys with PFs were trying). Unfortunately this made the Command Squad a target.

The cheap Devastators rocked in the closing phases of the game, but couldn't close the deal on any of the Warlords I had been wounding (thus I ended the game with 0VP). But at least no one got the Relic (the guy that won did so because he had killed Logan... who I had wounded twice, and because he got first blood; very close game). But each half accounted for a an enemy Psyker on its own.

The Ravenwing with Hit and Run are brilliant in every way. No more getting tied down in combat, I ended up using this to slip combat a few times to continue rocking out elsewhere. And with the point reductions everywhere my usual 3-man throw-away unit became a full squad with all the trimmings. Not bad.

Lion's Roar was also pretty fun to fire off the drop. May not use it all the time, but the presence of a combi-plasma cannon is hilarious.

If I were to replay the game:

a) Probably would have tried to make it a 2vs2 game, 4-way is too bloody hard to keep track of and requires extensive, confusing house rules.

B) Would have probably dropped some extraneous units to try and grab an extra Deathwing unit OR would have not dropped everything in turn 1. I made myself a target early and ended up taking the brunt of the assault from three armies in the game. But to their credit the HQ Squad and Knights lasted for a while against several hardcore units and ended up causing a lot of havoc.

But hey, new codex is always a learning experience.

Chalk me up for my first loss with the new book.

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't know, but I feel like if an almost 2K point army list can take the brunt of three equivalent point armies in a go, that means this Codex is pretty rock solid. Very cool write up, Ronin_eX.