Cmdr Shepard Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Greetings, I have a question about the Caestus Assault Ram special rule. Horus Heresy betrayal Caestus entry states it may choose to ram even though it is a flyer. Does it mean it can ram only ground targets or does that rule supersedes the rule that prevents flyers from being rammed? Is there something forcing the Caestus to ram only in hover mode? Thanks for your assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Greetings, I have a question about the Caestus Assault Ram special rule. Horus Heresy betrayal Caestus entry states it may choose to ram even though it is a flyer. Does it mean it can ram only ground targets or does that rule supersedes the rule that prevents flyers from being rammed? Is there something forcing the Caestus to ram only in hover mode? Thanks for your assistance. The rules for the Caestus state "although a flyer the caestus rams as if it was a tank", this means it follows all the normal rules for ramming as a tank does (so no it cannot ram flyers), and the rules say nothing about having to be in hover mode, only that it is a flyer that rams like a tank, so you can go 36" across the board into the side of that land raider, although you will be giving yourself a strength 10 hit in return! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 To be fair, the Caestus' fluff does state that it's not expected to survive the ramming maneuver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 To be fair, the Caestus' fluff does state that it's not expected to survive the ramming maneuver... Yeah but I'd rather not give the enemy a free kill point, with a complementary paint job in the form of 10 exploding terminators... Unless they have a 4++ save then I'm ok with flinging my chainfists their way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yeah, I think you should be careful to ram about 18" if you've got occupants. Against rear armor if possible. It might give a whole new nuance to the term imperial fist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 The rules for the Caestus state "although a flyer the caestus rams as if it was a tank", this means it follows all the normal rules for ramming as a tank does (so no it cannot ram flyers), and the rules say nothing about having to be in hover mode, only that it is a flyer that rams like a tank, so you can go 36" across the board into the side of that land raider, although you will be giving yourself a strength 10 hit in return! That was my first impression to. According to RAW it makes perfect sense. Personally I find difficult for it to ram ground targets when it flies and not be able to ram flyers at the same altitude But as I said it's just a "common sense" judgement and RAW flyers cannot be rammed. Just a note on the "ramming maneuver": the fact the Caestus must move 36" (cruser speed) does not mean the target cannot be closer (so you don't suffer a S10 hit ) However I'd suggest to ram target at 18"+. If you don't destroy the vehicle you have to stop your motion and if a flyer move less then 18" it is destroyed.... just for the records... To be fair, the Caestus' fluff does state that it's not expected to survive the ramming maneuver... Well but it usually survives when it ram into the hull of starship and deploy the boarding party. However the fluff says, if I'm not mistaken, the target's hull is weakned with the magna melta. Yeah but I'd rather not give the enemy a free kill point, with a complementary paint job in the form of 10 exploding terminators... Unless they have a 4++ save then I'm ok with flinging my chainfists their way! Honestly even the terminators have a 4++ save and they "land" where they can use their chainfists I'd like to not voluntarily destroy a vehicle that cost more then a land raider. Yeah, I think you should be careful to ram about 18" if you've got occupants. Against rear armor if possible. It might give a whole new nuance to the term imperial fist... Think about a convoy of rhinos, razorbacks or even DE raider. You can potentially ram from one target to another, if you are lucky enough to destroy few of them and have a clear "line" across them Anyway it seems the Caestus has no way to counter other flyers, then. Well at least magna melta and the additional weapons (havoc launcher in HH, for example) should inflict some damage to the ground targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Yep. Caestus assault rams are AMAZING at what they do, BUT, you do have to question why you're taking a flier that is unable to take advantage of skyfire mode. Personally, I'd want to take care of anti-air first before investing in a ram. The other thing that kinda makes me sad about fliers is that they're assault transports, but their occupants cannot charge the turn they arrive from reserves. With the ram, this is less of an issue, because you cannot disembark straight after ramming at high speed anyway... so if you plan on ramming on arrival, you'd have to wait until the turn after to disembark anyway. Ah, I didn't notice that tanks continue moving after the ram if they manage an explodes! result. That's kinda nifty. Even a caestus won't reliably explode vehicles, even against AV 10-11. It's worth lining up a couple when possible, just in case, though :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Yep. Caestus assault rams are AMAZING at what they do, BUT, you do have to question why you're taking a flier that is unable to take advantage of skyfire mode. Personally, I'd want to take care of anti-air first before investing in a ram. The other thing that kinda makes me sad about fliers is that they're assault transports, but their occupants cannot charge the turn they arrive from reserves. With the ram, this is less of an issue, because you cannot disembark straight after ramming at high speed anyway... so if you plan on ramming on arrival, you'd have to wait until the turn after to disembark anyway. Ah, I didn't notice that tanks continue moving after the ram if they manage an explodes! result. That's kinda nifty. Even a caestus won't reliably explode vehicles, even against AV 10-11. It's worth lining up a couple when possible, just in case, though I agree with you. I recently ordered a Caestus because I like the "concept behind the model", since IA vol. 10. However I must admit I'm thinking it was not the best choice. Maybe I should have ordered a storm eagle. Anyway my local gaming community is not very "flyers heavy". Most players still prefer the "ground warfare style". In such context the Caestus may still be useful. High AV on front and side with a collection of weapons that can hurt ground units. Even an Icarus needs a 5 to inflict a pen hit and you have a 5++ invul. Not bad. I have ordered Imperial Armour Aeronautica so I'll soon give a look at the Imperial Flyers I could add to my Legiones Astartes army via Lord of War choice. I already have a thunderbolt in my collection and if it is a viable choice it could escort the caestus as they zoom across the skies Just for the sake of curiousity next time I'll email FW I could ask them about the OP question. As I said just for the sake of curiosity because RAW is quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 One thing that makes the caestus dealy is it's "10 terminators that dount count as ten terminators rule". Also the caestus always has strength 10 ram attacks when flying (front armour 13, tank, minimum move 18), so every target you hit will be taking a strength 10 hit. You could potentialy go through 3 or 4 tanks with that, then fire your magna melta using power of the machine spirit so it can be real nasty, and combined with its caestus ram rules makes it a great asset. As for other fliers, the way I see it is that other fliers manouver, dodge or are just faster then the caestus for it to ram them, tanks on the other hand are not so lucky. Also considering that it is an assault vehicle and the unit just "disembarked" into a crater, can they now assault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Also considering that it is an assault vehicle and the unit just "disembarked" into a crater, can they now assault? If you mean that the Caestus blew up and models in the unit inside survived, then yes, they could assault - unless, of course, it happened on the turn you arrived from reserves, in which case no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Also considering that it is an assault vehicle and the unit just "disembarked" into a crater, can they now assault? If you mean that the Caestus blew up and models in the unit inside survived, then yes, they could assault - unless, of course, it happened on the turn you arrived from reserves, in which case no. Can you ram from reserves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 Also considering that it is an assault vehicle and the unit just "disembarked" into a crater, can they now assault? If you mean that the Caestus blew up and models in the unit inside survived, then yes, they could assault - unless, of course, it happened on the turn you arrived from reserves, in which case no. Can you ram from reserves? Yes, you can. You have to declare it before it enters the table (pag 85 and 86 of the rulebook) As for other fliers, the way I see it is that other fliers manouver, dodge or are just faster then the caestus for it to ram them, tanks on the other hand are not so lucky. Well if the Heldrake of Flying MCs can fly over over flyers and attack them I think the Caestus could ram them. Anyway, as I said, RAW is clear on that point; even though I suspect it was not what they intended. But her we go, unless FW post a FAQ about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giarc Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Also considering that it is an assault vehicle and the unit just "disembarked" into a crater, can they now assault? If you mean that the Caestus blew up and models in the unit inside survived, then yes, they could assault - unless, of course, it happened on the turn you arrived from reserves, in which case no. I am pretty sure if your vehicle explodes, and the people inside are now on the ground, you cannot assault. If a Land raider Crusader his hit, blows up, and you did not disembark, it would be the same thing, would it not? One thing that makes the caestus dealy is it's "10 terminators that dount count as ten terminators rule". Also the caestus always has strength 10 ram attacks when flying (front armour 13, tank, minimum move 18), so every target you hit will be taking a strength 10 hit. You could potentialy go through 3 or 4 tanks with that, then fire your magna melta using power of the machine spirit so it can be real nasty, and combined with its caestus ram rules makes it a great asset. Also, The CAR does not have PotMS, or the option to use that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Also considering that it is an assault vehicle and the unit just "disembarked" into a crater, can they now assault? If you mean that the Caestus blew up and models in the unit inside survived, then yes, they could assault - unless, of course, it happened on the turn you arrived from reserves, in which case no. I am pretty sure if your vehicle explodes, and the people inside are now on the ground, you cannot assault. If a Land raider Crusader his hit, blows up, and you did not disembark, it would be the same thing, would it not? "Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80) A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault Vehicle.", BRB FAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giarc Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Also considering that it is an assault vehicle and the unit just "disembarked" into a crater, can they now assault? If you mean that the Caestus blew up and models in the unit inside survived, then yes, they could assault - unless, of course, it happened on the turn you arrived from reserves, in which case no. I am pretty sure if your vehicle explodes, and the people inside are now on the ground, you cannot assault. If a Land raider Crusader his hit, blows up, and you did not disembark, it would be the same thing, would it not? "Q: If a unit disembarks from a destroyed vehicle during the enemy turn, can it Charge in the Assault phase of its own turn? (p80) A: No, unless the vehicle in question was an Assault Vehicle.", BRB FAQ Well I am glad your on these forums! Cause i have been playing that wrong then... curse my fellow games who told me otherwise! My mistake, thank your for the correction, and clairfication on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Well I am glad your on these forums! Cause i have been playing that wrong then... curse my fellow games who told me otherwise! My mistake, thank your for the correction, and clairfication on that. Yes, as said you can assault from a destroyed assault vehicle. No such luck with Rhinos unfortunately. But with an assault vehicle things get funny. Technically you could even move a Land Raider 12" with troops inside, end up failing a dangerous terrain test destroying the vehicle on your own turn... and then charge with the disembarked passengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex567 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 One thing that makes the caestus dealy is it's "10 terminators that dount count as ten terminators rule". Also the caestus always has strength 10 ram attacks when flying (front armour 13, tank, minimum move 18), so every target you hit will be taking a strength 10 hit. You could potentialy go through 3 or 4 tanks with that, then fire your magna melta using power of the machine spirit so it can be real nasty, and combined with its caestus ram rules makes it a great asset. Also, The CAR does not have PotMS, or the option to use that. Horus Heresy: betrayal, the caestus has the machine spirit wargear, which grants it the power of the machine spirit special rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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