Primarch list from The First Expedition forum...

[Olis]

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=136&st=15&&do=findComment&comment=22047835

 

According to that thread, the list of the order the Primarchs were found in (which I will cut and paste here for sake of brevity) is apparently something that the authors at BL are working off of (although the proper list the authors have access to apparently has dates on it). 

 

Here's the list itself:

 

Horus

Leman Russ

[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]

Ferrus Manus

Fulgrim

Vulkan

Rogal Dorn

Roboute Guilliman

Magnus the Red

Sanguinius

Lion El'Jonson

Perturabo

Mortarion

Lorgar

Jaghatai Khan

Konrad Curze

Angron

Corax

[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]

Alpharius

 

 

So, what do you think of it, brothers? Do you trust it, considering the source? What do you make of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim being found reasonably closely, time-wise? Also, what do you make of the [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] primarchs and their position on the list? Anything else jump out that surprises you?

 

(Just in case anyone is wondering - Laurie Goulding is the submissions editor for BL.)

[Lepaca]

Do they state their source?

[Olis]

Do they state their source?

 

The source is BL via Laurie Goulding. I suppose it could be considered unofficial (non-canon) because it likely won't get printed. 

[No Foes Remain]

Well in Deliverance Lost Corax remarks after the Emperor told him he had 17 other brothers and he wondered how that was possible since he was number 19. So thats two of them the wrong way around or just generally screwed up.

[Grotsmasha]

IIRC, it does say in Deliverance Lost that both Deleted Primarchs were done before he (Corax) was found.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Veteran Sergeant]

There seem to be a fair number of inconcistencies in this list, the most glaring of which having already been brought up, the conversation between the Emprah and Corax in Deliverance Lost.

 

However, Laurie Golding also mentioned "(Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels.)"  Which I'm taking to mean that, in true 40K fashion, they're just going to retcon the hell out of Deliverance Lost.  ;)

 

I would assume this list is relatively "new", and not one they've been working with for a while.  Maybe somebody realized that the cohesiveness of their editorial vision has been somewhat lacking, and decided to at least set up a timeline, even if there's still "nothing" said about the Missing Legions.

[Olis]

Tbh, I'm kinda hoping that late missing primarch gets bumped up the list a little. But that's just my opinion

[Kol Saresk]

There seem to be a fair number of inconcistencies in this list, the most glaring of which having already been brought up, the conversation between the Emprah and Corax in Deliverance Lost.

However, Laurie Golding also mentioned "(Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels.)" Which I'm taking to mean that, in true 40K fashion, they're just going to retcon the hell out of Deliverance Lost.

I would assume this list is relatively "new", and not one they've been working with for a while. Maybe somebody realized that the cohesiveness of their editorial vision has been somewhat lacking, and decided to at least set up a timeline, even if there's still "nothing" said about the Missing Legions.

I could only hope that Deliverance Lost sees some retcons. Hmm, it is a BL EDITOR so I would hope that they are using at some GW IP-approved material, but considering how much seems to get past editors Deliverance Lost, the timeline blunder in The Outcast Dead, and not to mention a fact like "The Soul Drinkers aren't Imperial Fists but Lysander can still activate a weapon gene-coded to the Soul Drinkers' gene-seed" from Phalanx(not to mention the rest of the book), my faith does get shaken from time to time. At least we can count on GW to be consistent. Oh, wait.....

[Conn Eremon]

This editor also stated that it was the currently approved list to be used for all upcoming literature. Though there are a lot of inconsistencies with past books, this is the currently accepted list upon which all other future works will be based on. However, inconsistencies will always be present, even with such lists and other resources being declared absolutely true and totally fact. There will always be an author who will overlook it, whether by accident or design, an editor who will miss it and a reader who will find it.

 

But this is kind of like that Legion numbers thing. Though early books assumed a Legion size of ten thousand, it was more like one hundred thousand, which became accepted fact. Same thing, early books assumed such and such Primarch was before/after such and such Primarch, but now there is a list that carves it into stone. That is, if we believe the source. It's from a user calling herself a BL editor who says the information is gathered and used by the publishing company, so it's not a random person who collated this information on their own. However, it'd be nice if someone like A D-B or Sarah Cawkwell, the only two BL authors I know of to frequent B&C, could provide some verification.

[Daemon2027]

Laurie Goulding mentions a few other usefull things to know about this list. First is that not all the Primarchs took control of their legions as soon as they were found but also, which I think is crucial, he says that all furture GW stuff will be based on so it may not have been around long, and that, to quote him,

 

'Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels'

 

Which to me suggests they realise there is mistakes and will look to rectify them. Bit annoying if you have the older book, you need to buy the newer hardbacks to see what's changed.

[Algrim Whitefang]

Some interesting points brought up by the user Phoebus over at the First Expedition forums:

 

 

Luther returned from the Dark Angels' "first campaign" ('Descent of Angels', pg 211) on the 147th year of the Great Crusade ('Fallen Angels', pg 7). There is no implication that other campaigns have been fought, or that the Lion waited before taking command of the Dark Angels. 'Grey Angel', however, states that Luther fought alongside Abaddon at some point before his exile. This is merely my opinion, and not an attack on John French, but I think it's hard to find room for that interpretation in 'Descent of Angels'.

I bring this up to show the context surrounding the Lion's order of discovery. With that in mind, consider the idea that the Lion was supposedly found before Jaghatai Khan. 'Descent of Angels' strongly implies that it is the Dark Angels who are the junior Legion upon arrival to Sarosh, whose Primarch-led fleet is a secondary one lacking the resources to wage its own campaigns.

Or, consider Lorgar when compared to the Lion. The events of Monarchia happened 43 years prior to Isstvan V (per the introduction to "The First Heretic"), or roughly the 157th year of the Great Crusade. Lest we think that Lorgar might have been found in the ten years since Luther went home, though, in pg 63 of 'The First Heretic' Kor Phaeron states that they (he and Lorgar) "have worshipped at the wrong altar for over a hundred years ..." This would imply that Lorgar was found before the 57th year of the Great Crusade. In order for the above order of discovery/command to work, then, Lorgar must not have commanded the XVII Legion for ninety years.

Similarly, let's consider Angron. On page 152 of 'Betrayer', Gharte the World Eater states that "Seventy years of serving the Butcher and his Nails is long
enough." The battle of Armatura occurred one year after Isstvan V, which means Angron had been found before the 140th year of the Great Crusade. That places him prior to the Lion as well, unless he had to wait several years before he took command. 'After Desh'ea', though, doesn't imply that... It implies a fairly immediate (if bloody and brutal!) process wherein Khârn convinces his Primarch to assume command.

Also, let's look at Perturabo. On page 51 of 'Angel Exterminatus', we are told that Perturabo discovered the crumbling plans from which he designed the Cavea Ferrum a century and a half prior to the book's events. That puts his discovery at least somewhere near the 50th year of the Great Crusade. Page 365 also speaks of "a century and more of war".

Finally, 'Deliverance Lost' has the Emperor referring to the expunged Primarchs in conversation with Corax... and the implication is that they are BOTH gone. The order of discovery offered, though, has Corax discovered and/or assuming command prior to one of the expunged Primarchs being found.

I know, I know, the warp plays a role, and no clock is perfect given the distances involved in galactic travel. Still, when the author goes out of his way to offer me a date relative to the Great Crusade or to a defining event of the Great Crusade or the Heresy, I think it would be a shame to ignore it for fear of it being irrelevant due the issues the warp poses. And in this case, if the Black Library folks are using this list as a reference for their future writing, doesn't it matter that the list disregards what's already been written?

 

So, what do you all think?  Does he bring up some valid points or is he just nit-picking?

[Kol Saresk]

He has a point. I cannot confirm everything as it has been a while since I have read the books, but some of it does match up for the most although I don't recall an exact time period given between when Angron was found and Khârn convinced him to lead the XII Legion, just that the original Legion commander and several of the higher ranking officers were killed in their attempts to convince Angron. But yes, consistency is something that every company publishing material about Warhammer 40k need to keep consistent with each other. Even right now with the Heresy series being under the watchful eye of the GW IP Department, the authors are not talking to each other except for the Heresy meetings. Communication is key. The editors' only job isn't to just check for spelling and grammatical errors(which I wish they would do more of, or at least have some sort of redundancy measure in place, such as more than one editor reading the material), but to also check for continuity between events in the story(Phalanx is a prime example with Borganor at first showing up as a Crimson Fists Captain of the Second Company on page 49 and yet from page 70 onward, he is a Captain of the Howling Griffons withe the Crimsons Fists being represented by Reinez while their 2nd Company simply vanishes), any series' background the story is touching(such as Lysander activating the Soulspear on page 62 and it being a repeated fact throughout the series that only gene-descendants of Dorn can activate it yet on page 177, the Soul Drinkers are revealed to not be of Imperial Fists' descent) as well as the background material in general(such as The Outcast Dead blatantly ignoring the timeline that was established with the Razing of Prospero happening before Istvaan III through False Gods and A Thousand Sons).

 

Proceeding to disrupt the continuity even further would only lead to confusion about the background. As an editor, Laurie Goulding should be endeavoring to make sure that the list matches any and all references that have already been made concerning the finding of the Primarchs and then proceed to "fill in the blanks", if there are any, about those Primarchs who have no definitive place in the order of discovery yet. It's bad enough for BL to carry the burden of once not caring if they followed the IP way back when around the time I was born, they need to make sure that they are consistent at least with themselves if they intended to keep publishing GW's material in novels.

[Augustus]

Well. The Emperor tells Corax that two of his brothers were gone, but then he also tells him that has found " most of them". Implying that the Emperor knew he would find the remaining. If he knew he could find the remaining then he possibly already knew what fate would befall or had befallen the missing primarchs. So there is really nothing conclusive about what the Emperor told Corax other than "most of them"
 
quotes: "How many of my brothers have you found?’
‘Most of them,’ replied the Emperor."
 
and 
 

"‘Yes, you have brothers,’ said the Emperor, smiling at his son’s delight. ‘Seventeen of them. You are the primarchs, my finest creations.’
‘Seventeen?’ Corvus asked, confused. ‘I remember that I was number nineteen. How can that be so?’
The Emperor’s expression grew bleak, filled with deep sorrow. He looked away as he replied.
‘The other two,’ he said. ‘That is a conversation for another day.’ " Again the Emperor knew he would find all 17. But the two were either already gone or he knew they would be.

 
In betrayer Khârn is talking about how there was  "Speculation was rife, from the muttered worry that their primarch might already be dead, to the hope he would be a warrior and general to rival Horus, Guilliman, Dorn or the Lion." Implying that Angron came after the Lion thereby hinting that the Lion's time has been changed.
 
In First heretic there is a conversation about what facets the Primarchs represent of the Emperor. "I will never understand tactics and logistics with the effortless ease of Guilliman or the Lion." and "The Lion is your father’s rationality – his analytical skill – unburdened by conscience." The former was said by Lorgar the later by Kor Phaeron. These words were spoken 43 years before Istvaan. If so then the Lion is well know to a lot of people despite being cast as a recluse of a primarch. Hinting that the Lion's timelime has been altered.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The order for Fulgrim and Ferrus is also messed up, if memory serves.  Fulgrim was already on Terra when the Emperor brought Ferrus to him under Mount Narodnya, where they had their weapon-forging contest.

 

So. . . . yeah, if this is the new canon, they need to fix it first.  Lots of issues there.

[Augustus]

The order for Fulgrim and Ferrus is also messed up, if memory serves.  Fulgrim was already on Terra when the Emperor brought Ferrus to him under Mount Narodnya, where they had their weapon-forging contest.

 

So. . . . yeah, if this is the new canon, they need to fix it first.  Lots of issues there.

Not necessarily. Perhaps the Emperor did indeed find Ferrus first. But soon found Fulgrim. Then by the the time they both get around to going to Terra, Fulgrim is the first to get there? 

 

Also I think it was the other way around. Fulgrim declares that he intends to make the finest weapon ever crafted and Ferrus, who is already there, declares a dance off weapon building contest. Implying Ferrus was there first. 

[Kol Saresk]

Fulgrim doesn't say if Ferrus or Fulgrim had been found first. Just that before both had joined the Crusade, Ferrus had been working the forges with some of the blacksmiths from the Terrawatt Clan when Fulgrim had come down to "forge the perfect weapon." From there, there was the contest that resulted in the creation of Forgebreaker and Fireblade. That just happened to be when they first met. So their Findings were close together.

[Jareddm]

I'm in favor of the second missing primarch having already been dead/mutated/whatever before he was found. That the Emperor has a link to each of his sons and knows when one of them has been killed. Perhaps in addition, this primarch's legion was suffering similarly to the Thousand Sons or the Emperor's Children, but unlike those legions, this one failed to find their primarch in time and eventually died out.

 

Emperor: "I felt a great disturbance in the Warp, as if a mighty voice suddenly cried out in terror and was suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

[Kol Saresk]

And yet it was Horus who found Alpharius, not the Emperor........

[Jareddm]

Didn't say it had anything to do with knowing where they are.  Only a sense of whether they're alive or dead.

[Kol Saresk]

True, but the sense of "location" is something found in the background itself. IIRC, the Primarch's had psychic beacons which were how the Emperor found most of his sons and with the exception of Alpharius, it was the Emperor who found all of his sons.

[Cyrox]

I'm in favor of the second missing primarch having already been dead/mutated/whatever before he was found. That the Emperor has a link to each of his sons and knows when one of them has been killed. Perhaps in addition, this primarch's legion was suffering similarly to the Thousand Sons or the Emperor's Children, but unlike those legions, this one failed to find their primarch in time and eventually died out.

 

Emperor: "I felt a great disturbance in the Warp, as if a mighty voice suddenly cried out in terror and was suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."

 

It has been stated in numerous sources that all 20 primarch's were found and fought with their respective legions. The were active in the Crusade for at least a short while before the events that brought about the 'missing/purged/lost/deleted' scenario