Night Fighting duration?

[Kastor Krieg]

OK, question mostly to English native speakers, but everyone's welcome to chime in. Just state please whether English is your first language, because I think there's some strange logical quirk here going on (I'm a professional translator / editor). Here's something I can't get across to most of the guys on the Polish 40k Forum and either my instinctive interpretation is wrong or it's the language barrier for everyone else.

 

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5585/nightho.png

 

Q: How long does Night Fighting last, if the 4+ is rolled before play?

A: The rules come into effect in Game Turn 1 (per 1st paragraph) and last until the end of the game (per 2nd paragraph).

 

Now, my Polish friends are adamant that the entry says explicitly that "is in effect during Game Turn 1" means "is in effect only in Game Turn 1" and that if it was rolled on Turn 1, the 2nd and further game turns are "day".

 

My reading is, instead, that the "ON" trigger of the night is described as is, either rolled before game and turn 1 or during the game, on 4+, from 2nd turn onwards, until the end of the game, which is the only "OFF" trigger in the text. The "is in effect during game turn 1" does not read to me as "isn't any further" at all.

 

Of course, sloppy GW wording that potentially could be read two ways, as always. But how do YOUR English speaking groups play this, guys? How have you seen that played on tournaments, with English-native orgs? I'm very curious.

[Octavulg]

English is my first language, and I would bet it's supposed to be the way you interpret it.

 

Literally, all it says is that it's in effect in Game Turn 1. It's silent on the matter of subsequent turns. NOthing in the language implies that ONLY Game Turn 1 was intended.

 

There IS an ambiguity there, but any ambiguity in what was intended by the first paragraph is made pretty clear by the NEXT paragraph.

 

So yeah, you're right.

[Kierdale]

Native English speaker here.

Yes, if you roll 4+ before turn one then Night Fighting is in effect for Turn One. And only Turn One. The armies are effectively fighting just before the break of dawn, and the sun rises at the end of Turn One. Turn Two onwards are daylight.

 

Further, for the Turn Five roll they do state that a successful roll means "The Night Fighting rules are in effect for the rest of the game" indicates to me that the Turn One roll does not have this (for the rest of the game) effect.

 

Plus, who wants to play the entire game with Night Fighting on? ;)

[Harleqvin]

Native English speaker here, too.

Beginning of game roll of 4+ is for the Game Turn ONE only for Night fighting. After that it is Daylight.

If you didn't roll 4+ at beginning of game, then Turn 5 (and each game turn after that if you didn't get night fighting roll of 4+ on the previous game turn starting game turn 5,) it is Night Fighting until end of game if a 4+ is rolled.

[Kastor Krieg]

Octavulg:
Thanks, this is exactly the way I read that. I can't see any indication to where there "turn 1 night" ends, except for paragraph 2, which has all 4+ rolled nights end at the end of the game.

Kierdale, Harleqvin:
I'm only trying to understand and not argue - can you please point me to a word or part of meaning that has you take "to be in effect during turn one" as "to be in effect during only turn 1"? All the dictionaries in my possession have the phrase as "come into force" / "start to apply", there's no semantic part that means "and then ends", if you get what I mean. The only "end limiter" is in paragraph 2, where it says "once night begins after a 4+ roll [there's one also in paragraph 1, after all!], it lasts until the end of the game".

Why exactly then the first roll should be any different?

What was the wording of the rule in 4th and 5th edition? I somehow feel that people have an ingrained interpretation from the editions I skipped and this nuance seems to elude them, purely on basis of "that's how it always was"?


EDIT:
The only reason paragraph 1 exists is because of how the initial Night affects how you would do your deployment. And that's it, there's no mention of how long it lasts.

[Brother_Angelus]

Its only during turn one. As previously stated the game begins either just before daybreak or during the day stretching into nighttime.

 

The fact that they state the rule "is in effect during game turn 1" and only give the ruling for rolling subsequent turns in the second paragraph, dictates it doesn't apply after turn 1. Otherwise the game mechanic for checking would have been stated at the end of paragraph one and not paragraph two.

[Kastor Krieg]

Sorry, but I cannot accept that reasoning, it is fallacious. If it's further in the text, it still encapsulates the whole, especially when it explicitly says "once night begins after a 4+ roll", which also obviously applies to paragraph 1.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's turn 1 only.

 

40k is permissive.

 

The rule states that on a 4+ it's in effect during turn 1.

 

That's it, and that's all we can take from it.

[Leonaides]

turn 1, and turn 1 only. The second paragraph is separate. If the bit about night fight remaining in play in subsequent turns in a third paragraph, I would agree that it would apply to the initial roll and the turn 5 roll, but it doesnt.

[Kastor Krieg]

What does that even mean, "40k is permissive"?

[Leonaides]

It means it tells you what you can do, so if it doesn't say you can fire 2 heavy weapons using the gunslinger rule then charge with a guardsman then you cant do it. Nor can you declare that your guardsman who is behind a wall and totally unseen is going to stick his lasgun round the corner and shoot while not exposing himself to return fire because 'you just cant miss tyranids!'...

 

RPG games give you rules to work from, that allow you to do things not specifically covered in the rule book (IE: an agility test to leap from a table, catch a chandellier, swing across the room and kick the remote detonater out of the bad guys hand before he can trigger it if the other players feel that that is appropriate) while 40k give you rules to work within.

 

edit- sorry, should have said earlier, native (UK) english-speaker...

[dswanick]

Native American speaker (not exactly the same thing as English ).

Night Fight is either in effect on Turn 1 only, or from Turn 5 onward (based on the die roll).

[Brother Casman]

Native English speaker here. Our group has always played it as "night fight on first turn only, otherwise check again in turn 5 and later" - I'm pretty sure that's how we played it in 5th edition as well.

[muadib02]

Native Anglophone here as well.

 

"...on a roll of 4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during game turn 1."

 

This is the only thought of those 2 paragraphs which governs Night Fighting at the begning of the game. The entire second paragraph is contingent on the failure of a dice roll during the first test, as such can be ignored for the purposes of determining NF at the begining of the game.

 

Now as to the real rub of the problem. The duration of Night Fighting. Should you pass the 4+ roll, Night Fighting comes into effect. This is undisputed. NF comes in to effect for the duration of game turn 1. The word "during" combined with the specific denotation of the turn number, means that should the 4+ roll be passed NF only exists for the duration given...which is Game Turn 1.

 

If NF was to continue past Turn 1, then the rule would state "....in effect for the duration of the game" or "...in effect during game turn 1 and the rest of the game."

 

Essentially, the rules do not give you permission (in this specific case) to carry on with night fighting after game turn 1.

[Kastor Krieg]

It means it tells you what you can do, so if it doesn't say you can

fire 2 heavy weapons using the gunslinger rule then charge with a

guardsman then you cant do it. Nor can you declare that your guardsman

who is behind a wall and totally unseen is going to stick his lasgun

round the corner and shoot while not exposing himself to return fire

because 'you just cant miss tyranids!'...

 

RPG games give you rules to work from, that allow you to do things

not specifically covered in the rule book (IE: an agility test to leap

from a table, catch a chandellier, swing across the room and kick the

remote detonater out of the bad guys hand before he can trigger it if

the other players feel that that is appropriate) while 40k give you

rules to work within.

 

This actually makes sense. My field is RPGs and if there actually IS a difference in ruleset design structure like that, that I wasn't aware of, then you all might be right. Sigh, however counterintuitive that is for me, I will have to adjust, I guess.

[Panzerbjørn]

Native Danish Speaker here (But lived in the UK for 17 years)...

As others have said, it is during the first turn not during the game,

Plus, who wants to play the entire game with Night Fighting on?

I do :-)

[Octavulg]

So in a mission with the Night Fighting rule, the general interpretation is that it'll actually be night less than 20% of the time?

[Leonaides]

Potentially... Nothing to stop u playing friendly games using night fight all the time but its there to represent dawn/dusk attacks...

[Panzerbjørn]

So in a mission with the Night Fighting rule, the general interpretation is that it'll actually be night less than 20% of the time?

Correct. You either attack at dawn and the sung oes up or you attack in the eveninng, and it gets dark as the fight carries on...

[Seahawk]

EFL, and it's definitely either/or. Either it's Night Fight on GT1 only, or from turn 4+ only. 

 

Permissive, as said. The rulebook in this game tells you absolutely everything you are allowed to do; open-ended ideas are not allowed unless your friends agree with them. For instance, a long time ago my brother called up GW during a game at night (called a different time zone ;)), asking if a Grav-tank runs over Orks, do some get sucked up the engine intakes and everything blows up. They were told to go to bed. :P

 

It's the difference between playing chess (strict rules on how to play) and a MMORPG (do what you want, when you want, where you want). GW games are the former. D&D is the latter.

[Cactus]

Octavulg:

Thanks, this is exactly the way I read that. I can't see any indication to where there "turn 1 night" ends, except for paragraph 2, which has all 4+ rolled nights end at the end of the game.

 

Kierdale, Harleqvin:

I'm only trying to understand and not argue - can you please point me to a word or part of meaning that has you take "to be in effect during turn one" as "to be in effect during only turn 1"? All the dictionaries in my possession have the phrase as "come into force" / "start to apply", there's no semantic part that means "and then ends", if you get what I mean. The only "end limiter" is in paragraph 2, where it says "once night begins after a 4+ roll [there's one also in paragraph 1, after all!], it lasts until the end of the game".

 

Why exactly then the first roll should be any different?

 

What was the wording of the rule in 4th and 5th edition? I somehow feel that people have an ingrained interpretation from the editions I skipped and this nuance seems to elude them, purely on basis of "that's how it always was"?

 

 

EDIT:

The only reason paragraph 1 exists is because of how the initial Night affects how you would do your deployment. And that's it, there's no mention of how long it lasts.

 

Kastor Krieg, I'm a native English speaker and I think that what you and your dictionaries are missing is that "in effect during turn 1" means just that: during turn 1 the night fighting rules are in effect. The words "in effect" contain their own "end limiter".

 

Here's an example:

 

"Due to engineering works road closures will be in effect on Monday" does not say the roads will be closed all week, only that there will be roads closed on Monday. Tuesday is not Monday, therefore the roads will not be closed on Tuesday. Turn 2 is not turn 1, so night fighting is not in effect on turn 2.

 

Compare that usage of "in effect" with this one:

 

"Due to engineering works road closures will be in effect from Monday" is open-ended. Roads will be closed until further notice.

 

By the way, kudos to you for not mixing up 'effect' and 'affect'. A lot of Brits struggle with that.

[Octavulg]

I would point out that the language "did not take effect during game Turn 1" implies a continuous and ongoing effect.  "was not in effect during Game Turn 1" would be more conventional language for an effect limited to one turn only. 

[DarkGuard]

Remember, GW aren't great at writing rules. They write them in English and in such a way that they feel it is easy to understand. But they don't write them to be attacked by a dictionary.

 

What I'm saying, is that as shown in this thread, most people will read it as Game Turn 1 only, and only that turn. That is the casual read over way of interpreting. As has been mentioned though, look at it a bit more, and it is more ambiguous.

 

However, I'm pretty certain that it's meant for Turn 1 only, because this is consistent with the way that GW write their rules. Also, I know they count for nought, but I'm pretty sure that there was a WD batrep which started with Night Fight and it only last Turn 1.

[Octavulg]

I'd count the batrep for more than the literal reading of the rules. I remember 4th edition mixed armor. And "is ignoring armor saves equivalent to failing an armor save".

[Grey Mage]

Im going with game turn 1, and only turn one for the simplest reasons: It doesnt say to continue with the effect in the first paragraph wherein night fighting starts on turn one, but DOES say to continue for the rest of the game in the second paragraph, wherein night fighting starts turn 5. If it was meant to go from that point onward theyve shown theyd say so.

 

"is in effect game turn 1." Not "will come into effect game turn 1" or "will first be in effect game turn 1" etc. Just like "Cereal is on sale july 24rth" doesnt mean "from july 24rth onward".