Sanguinary guard or Honor guard

[terminatorAM]

My best friend just got me a box of sang guard for my birthday and I'm trying to decide what to do with them. I play Flesh Tearers and have a list made up that I'm building up, but I've never thought of actually using the SG in games. I love the models and I'll use them one way or another, right now I'm stuck between using them as SG or mixing the bits with other stuff I have to make the HG unit I plan to use with wings and cool armor.

 

The reason I'm hesitant about using the SG themselves is because I generally don't like 5 man squads and they seem to only have their full potential used if the list also has Dante. In each points level of the lists I have made up, I use a JP Death Company as my main assault unit so I'm not sure if I would really need the extra attack power of the SG which is why I was think HG instead for some firepower.

 

This HG would have x4 plasma guns and JPs for mobile firepower and "hidden" priest to be boosted by my prescience Librarian. 

 

 

Does anyone have experience using the Sanguinary Guard w/o Dante and are they worth it, or would I be better off with a plasma honor guard built with SG bitz?

[JamesI]

I like the Sanguinary guard more, but I use Dante.

 

The HG is a good setup, I run that as well.  In a non-Dante army I'd go HG.

[Ushtarador]

The 4xplasma HG fills a completely different role than the SG.

 

Sanguinary Guard are cool, but kinda hard to play. They certainly need a priest to make up for the lack of an invul save against plasma and similar stuff, and to challenge out power fists. They murder everything that wears power armor or less, and with axes you can suicide into terminators without stormshields if you feel it's worth it. But like you already mentioned, they are only 5 guys, so you have to be very careful with the positioning.

I don't feel that Dante adds very much to them, I usually deploy them out of sight and jump them across the field (unless the terrain is very unfair^^). Even with Dante, they can't challenge terminators, and they kill their intended targets fast enough anyway, I'd rather use him somewhere else.

 

Just remember that the HG is actually even weaker, as they are only 5 guys as well, but only in power armor and with no real cc capability ;)

[SamaNagol]

I don't see how the HG have no CC capacity? They have exactly the same stats as SG with a built in Priest and 4 can be upgraded to have Power Weapons too.

[Ushtarador]

I was talking about the 4xPlasma-HG he mentioned in his post now, of course you can equip them for CC as well, if you want :)

[Jolemai]

Are SG they really worth it this edition though? What does having two-handed weapons really bring to this squad?

[Xenith]

Are SG they really worth it this edition though? What does having two-handed weapons really bring to this squad?

A single reroll to hit per round each with no need for a prescience libby, which on WS4 is roughly the equivalent of an extra attack each.

 

They also have the ability to get an extra attack each for 6pts/model (5pts/model if there's a priest in the unit).

 

As to the OP. Does your army have a reliable way to taking out 2+saves?

 

If you don't, then take the HG. If you have a few plasma cannons around, then get the SG.

 

Pick the unit that compliments the rest of your army. Remember as an assault army, you need multiple assaulty threats.

 

Treat the SG as Mephiston. He is essentially an SG squad on his own (plus a lot more).

[terminatorAM]

I dont have a lot of anti 2+ shooting yet so I was leaning heavily towards the HG. I have a pair of preds with lascannons and scattered melta guns between my assault squads.

 

Last night I played a game against a terminator heavy GK list and found out the hard way that was not enough shooting. After that games I'll be adding the HG for sure and wont think about SG until I have higher points to play with.

[Jolemai]

 

Are SG they really worth it this edition though? What does having two-handed weapons really bring to this squad?

A single reroll to hit per round each with no need for a prescience libby, which on WS4 is roughly the equivalent of an extra attack each.

 

They also have the ability to get an extra attack each for 6pts/model (5pts/model if there's a priest in the unit).

 

Perhaps I am missing something?

 

The first line you wrote details the Master Crafted rule. I understand that rule but my question was asking about what two-handed weaponry brings to the table. No +1A for two combat weapons and no other bonus makes them a waste of time imo (unless of course I am missing something).

 

Does you second sentence refer to the Chapter Banner?

[Xenith]

Does you second sentence refer to the Chapter Banner?

Yep

 

 

No +1A for two combat weapons and no other bonus makes them a waste of time imo (unless of course I am missing something).

 

But you pay a large premium for the power weapon+ CCW on any other jump packed guy:

DC: 50pts, HG - 45pts VG - 45pts. If you spend the same pts/model on SG, then you get the bonus attack from the chapter banner.

 

Specifically addressing your question: A weapon with the two handed rule brings nothing to the table, however it comes packaged with master crafted which is essentially an extra attack.

 

On the charge, an Honourguard will have 4A, and get 2 hits vs MEQ on average. Likewise, a sanguard will have 3A, and get ~2.25 hits on the charge (one hit, one miss, one 50/50. The miss gets rerolled). Math is very very rough, but HG have a higher maximum number of hits, but can swing wildly, whereas Sanguard have a lower max number, but are more consistent.

 

They also come with artificer armour.

[Ushtarador]

Basically, the only reason why you would pick a cc honor guard over the SG is stormshields, but then they quickly become too expensive. Sure they pack a punch, but they strike at WS4/I4 and wear only power armor, it's very hard to even just get their points back because they die so fast.

[Chaplain Admetus]

The SG are very optimised for assault. HG can be done either way, but are less survivable generally so are better off in a shooty role. If you want to shoot stuff, HG, if you want to chop stuff, SG.

[Sviox]

I've always had hard time trying to figure out which role an HG squad fits in. We have so many better options for speedy assault, suchs as:

-RAS: less power but comes as scoring and costs a lot less (and a priest can be bought separately, and can have a power weapon for added power)

-SG: 2+ armor, better at killing things in cc

-DC: costy, but much more resilient and powerful (especially with Lemartes)

 

So if you want scoring and mass you go for RAS, if you need assault power you go either SG or DC depending on the rest of your army (SG might be better with Dante for example).

 

The only way I can justify fielding HG is surprisingly without the jump packs. As such, they can be put into a razorback and act as a nice fire support as well as giving some assault support if the need comes. I would equip this kind of squad with 1 hidden power fist and some plasma guns / pistols. This role fits will in mech armies that also field some tactical squads in rhinos.

[Kickrock]

Honor Guard for a shooty unit. Great for DoA with x4 Melta. Great for Drop Pod with x4 Plasma. You'll pay less than Sanguinary Guard for the closest equivilant weapons they can field. Can also be geared for CC, but I feel that Sanguinary Guard can pull this off a little better.

Sanguinary Guard are already geared for CC. Artificer Armor, Two Handed Master Crafted Power Weapon equivilants and Jump Packs come standard. All you lose is the Priest who you can't upgrade at all. If you gear Honor Guard to be as close as possible to Sanguinary Guard you'll pay more then bringing these guys bare. Plus their shooting isn't bad either (in that 12 inch gap)

Honor Guard seem like they would be the better CC unit because of the default Priest, but it is not the case. You'll wind up paying more when Sanguinary Guard can out do them bare.

 

[appiah4]

The main difference is versatility.

 

Sanguinary Guard are usually the most effective when taken with Dante, in a close combat role, as a spearhead.

 

The Honor Guard can be anything: 

They can be taken equally effectively with any HQ

They can be fielded as ranged or melee

They have a built in Sanguinary Priest, and thus add more to units around them (thereby become a support unit as well as a possible spearhead)

They can take any transport choice availabile, or even none at all which is great if you run mech or infantry lists)

Arguably they have access to better wargear

 

I'd go for an Honor Guard over Sanguinary Guard anyday, but then I play a defensive infantry list with AV13 backup.

[daveclark890]

I use an HG squad to support my Van Vets. The Van Vets Heroic Intervention descent and assault a unit that has been softened up by a shooty HG or the HG shoot at something which will be used by the enemy to gun down my Van Vets in the next turn. This gives me the choice of hitting and wasting a high powered command unit or a special unit that has cover. My HG are armed with meltas to nail anything. But I am thinking of changing to plasma and chucking in a flamer to help with hordes.