Building a chaos army for a new player

[Norrik]

Hey everyone.  So I finally caved and decieded to get into warhammer 40k.  I've been debating it for a while now (the last few years :P ) and i finally did it.  Anyways, I picked up the Dark Vengeance set a few weeks ago and got right down to assembling and painting everything.  Since i couldn't wait to actually play the game I just assembled and primed everything so i could get to playing the skirmish missions.  I really enjoyed them and I tried a few small battles with my roommate.  Needless to say it was a lot of fun and i really liked playing the chaos space marines.  That being said, I have come to you fine gentlemen (and ladies, if you're out there) for some tips on building a CSM army.

 

I have a general idea of what i want to do and I have gotten some help from a friend.  He offered to set me up with a rather nice assortment of units.

• two sets of DV chaos stuff (so i basically have 3 sets including mine)
• Daemon prince
• Forgefiend
• Heldrake
• Raptors

I won't be getting everything all at once from him, but it is still nice to be getting these units.  That being said, would you guys recommend any specific builds for this army.  I have a general idea for using a few squads of Chosen to really tear into the enemy with melee weapons, while my cultists are just kind of there for objectives and whatnot.  any help would be greatly appreciated :)

[Excessus]

Well, baleflamer on the drake at least, and the daemon prince needs a mace-like object painted black. 2x meltas or flamers on the raptors as well...

[Nehekhare]

unfortunately, chosen are rather bad, especially with a CC loadout (expensive, die like marines, have no good way to reach enemy lines). I use mine as CSM unit champions.

it's possible to make them troops with Abaddon, but those should rather be shooty with lots of plasmaguns. axe/combi-plas Terminators outperform them by miles (2+/5++ save for nearly the same cost)

 

with 3 DV sets, you have 60 cultists, filling all your troops choices with easily wiped, cheap objective claimers - so in order for them to do their job unmolested (mostly), you have to keep up pressure with lots of fast, hard hitting threads that your enemy has to deal with first: raptors, bikes, daemon princes, spawn, infiltrating CSM/cults/terminators. agressive play and speed are key here.

[the jeske]

What is the cash limit ?

in general chaos armies look like this

 

Lord on a bike

bikers to got with the lord

or

lord on a jugger

bikers to go with the lord

 

other options are mixing a lord with a sorc , sorc with a huron , huron with a lord.

----

3x10 csm with plasma

or

3x7 pm with plasma

or

2x10 csm with plasma

20xcultists

---

if your taking 2 drakes and have a biker lord you take bikers

if you have 2 biker hqs you take 2xbikers and 1 or no drake

if you take oblits you can take 1 unit of bikers . if you have no oblits you take 2 units of bikers and this of course means you cant have more then 1 drake under 2kpoints. there are options to mix this a bit more if your taking IG ally , but I doubt that at this point in the hobby your interested in it.

----

if you take 1 biker unit you take 2 units of oblits . if you have 2 biker units you can get away with one or just with havocks

it general the hvy support section looks like this 2x2 oblits , 2x2 oblits and havocks with AC , 2xhavocks with AC+1x2 oblits . 3x2 oblits , 2x2 havocks with AC , what is taken depands on points played what is taken in the list and if your trying to combat or ignore flyers.

 

 

 

So given what you get from the DV sets . I would make the chosen units plaguemarines[which is done by pointing a finger at them and saying "those are my plague marines] they have bolters some have technicly power weapons , but they can as well be normal ccws and te LC armed models will be your champs . not the most optimal thing to do , but at least you will have nice tough t5 FnP units. then the lord you will have 3 . you have two options here make one a counts as huron[most optimal thing to do] and the rest get added to your plague marine squads , cut the swords off and the horns and they will look rank and file enough .

you are of course going to take the 3 dreads and the 60 cultists in 3 mobs .

 

the forgefiend is in as is the drake .

 

If this is suppose to be a small investment army I would go with bits to arm the plague marines with 2 plasma each and a second fiend , after that the army is more or less done . If you want an actual army , then your in for a huge cash investment .

4 oblits ,

5-6 bikers [one will make your HQ you can bucher one of the lord to make a biker lord]

8 autocannon

20 csm

aegis

should be ok to start . later you will probably want to buy 3-4 rhinos , more bikers and a second drake.

[totgeboren]

I'm gonna go against the jeske somewhat and ask, "What sort of people will you be playing with?"

 

Do those you will play against often go to tournaments? If so, do they aim to place high or just meet new people (most of the people I know who go to tournaments don't seem to care all that much if they place top 10 or not, they just enjoy the event. A friend of mine who goes to quite a few tournaments even went to his first 6ed tournament without having played 6ed... lulz. ^_^).

 

I hope/guess that your foray into the w40k game will be a bit more relaxed, and as such, you have a lot more freedom to chose what units you want, without getting steam-rolled every game. Especially if your opponents don't do everything they can to stomp your newbie face in the mud every time. ;)

 

With that in mind, you should read the codex, and the entries for the different units. Take a look at the models and buy the ones you like the look and/or background for. That way it will be much easier to paint them, and nothing improves (at least my) enjoyment of the game as two nicely painted armies facing each other. And by painting, you will get good at painting, which will give you compliments, will will make you happy. :)

 

When I play I vary the competitiveness of my army by how well I did during the last battle. If I lost I might make an army that is a bit more powerful, if I won I might try out some unit I like but which I know is sort of 'bad' for the point in comparison with other units. Bikes and Raptors in our CSM codex for example. One is clearly better than the other for the points.

Just last battle I used a 10-man unit of Possessed and 2 Dreadnoughts (both units are considered sub-par, especially the Possessed)!

I was facing Grey Knights (who have arguably the most competitive codex right now) and by the end of turn 5, he only had a single Librarian locked in combat with my Dark Apostle, with the rest of his army wiped out! I only lost 1 squad of CSM and 1 Rhino! The lesson is that you will not automatically lose by including something that is not 'the best'.

Start by taking the models you like, and see what works and what doesn't.

[the jeske]

 

Start by taking the models you like, and see what works and what doesn't.

 

Do not lie. dont tell him he can buy what ever he wants when is starting , because your wasting his money and other people chance for a bigger community . Claiming that buying special weapons or second forgefiend is a "tournament" thing . what the hell is he suppose to do plays csm or pms without specials ?  not everyone has as bad opponents as you do and can play a game "I roll dice , you roll dice. yay random winner".

special weapons , long range support , anti tank this stuff all armies need . It doesnt matter if he is ever going to play at a tournament or just against his friend . And saying he will not lose without weapons/anti tank , because no game is auto lose ? you play 10 games against randomly selected armies [dont even have to be legal , but upgraded] without any upgrades for your army and then come back and say that again. Just plain against normal people and not those guys you regularly play .

[totgeboren]

I don't see why you need to insult me the jeske? I don't think I have ever met a more obnoxious poster than you on any forum save 4chan.

 

As he has played DV a few times, I felt safe to assume he knows the basics of 40k. He has probably figured out that he needs anti-tank weapons to deal with vehicles, and preferably anti-air weapons to deal with flyers.

If the people he will be playing with are not playing like their lives depend on it, there is no reason for him to simply never use his Helbrutes. He has lots of Chosen available, so it's good for him to know that these guys are not all that great with the weapons they come with. Mainly because they compete with terminators, who do much the same thing but better.

But that is not the same thing as saying 'You will never have a fun game if you field chosen with some power weapons', which seems to be what you are saying.

 

Did you even read his first post? He said he really enjoyed playing the scenarios (as Chaos!) from the DV box, so I think it's safe to assume he is not a die-hard win-or-quit-the-game type of player. With that said, he seems to be a player, in a setting, where he will probably be able to get the models he likes and have fun with them. This is not the same as saying he will only have chosen with power mauls. It is just saying he will most likely not need the best unit for the points in every slot to stand a chance of winning or just enjoying himself.

Your advice would be great for someone who said "I lose all the time and I'm not having fun, help me". But he did not ask that. Far from it.

[derpasaurus]

My list is fun.  and I like it.

raptor lord
Huron Blackheart
2 10x marines with plasma and rhinos
10x raptors with melta
drake with flamer
chosen (omg) with power weapons, flamers, melta (btw they do really well for me)
helbrute (doubleomg) with multimelta/powerfist
havocs with lascannons/missile launchers
forgefiend
vindicator

take whatever advice you want, do what you think will be fun. After all, that's the point of a hobby, right?

[Norrik]

Well I am mostly looking to have fun right now.  Once i get a better understanding of the game i might look into building my army for tournament play, but for right now I'm going to go with what I currently have and try and make it work against some of my friends, then i'll head into the tourneys.  As far as money goes i'm currently limited due to being in school and not having my decent job.  Once I am done for the semester i'll have more time to work, meaning more money!

 

As far as what i'm playing against, one guy has a rather small orc army.  it's basically the required HQ and two troops, and the other guy dropped about 400 bucks on a Black Templar army from ebay.  This guy is kind of a dick in the sense that he always has to be the best, so it would be nice to crush him :P  I'm not entirely sure what his unit comp is but i do know that he's got a land raider, and i think two predators along with some rhinos, and so far he thinks he's invincible......

 

I do agree with the fact that my Chosen aren't really the greatest of ideas and the terminators would be better, but since i already have the chosen i may as well use them until i get something better (ie termies).  Rather than running all of my cultists in 10 man squads i was thinking of making 2 30 man squads, one CC and the other with some range.  This way i still have room to add in some CSM (which i am planning on picking up this weekend, along with a rhino)  i was thinking either two 10 man squads with them or one 20 man squad.

 

As far as my HQ units go i was going to take a Chaos Lord (khorne) and a Daemon Prince (khorne) with axe of blind fury.  I do have a question about the bikes though.  If i wanted my chaos lord on a bike can i just say he's on a bike or will people get super upset when i field him without a bike?

[Nehekhare]

...and welcome to the hobby! ;D

 

give the axe to a khorne lord on a jugger (AP2 with I5 is golden), mace to a tzeentch daemon prince with wings, power armor, biomancy. if you want a big bad flying khorne thing, wait for codex:chaos daemons in march and ally them in!

 

against black templars: get bikes and/or raptors with 2x meltaguns within 6" of his landraider, place the heldrake's baleflamer template over the survivors, then assault - profit!

 

generally, "what you see is what you get" applies, so your models should reflect their equipment, but "counts as" allows for creativity, i.e. a tracked mount instead of a bike.

[derpasaurus]

Most people I know won't care as long as you're clear with them before the game starts so they know what's what. Especially if the key reason you don't have the model is because it's so expensive and you're short on cash. 

[*Furyou Miko]

Assume nothing. When I saw this thread title, I assumed he wasn't going to be playing the army himself.

 

Good job I read things before posting, really.

[nurglez]

As you may have gathered, The Jeske speaks from a very competitive stand point.

 

I personally really enjoy a close fought game, and am pro taking what you enjoy to take, and end up shying away from things everyone uses (unless I really like the model).

 

With all those cultists, you could pick up Typhus and make them plague zombies, to use as scoring units/tarpits (although due to his popurlarity in this regard I haven't tried him out yet).

 

In my 1500 point nurgle biased force I have 2 plague marine squads and 2 10man cultist squads as my scoring units, the cultists dont often survive, but have attracted fire from my force purely because they are easier to kill, and thus helping me to win a few games.

 

I can agree that melee chosen aren't great, and do best as special weapon spammed fire support squads, 6 chosen will get you 5 special weapons and a combi weapon of your choice :devil:

 

You may want to consider a few rhinos, the current net opinion is that they are not worth it, due to giving up first blood easily, I use a landraider and 2 rhinos and they do alright.

 

How you should collect depends on what you aim to do (friendly play, tournament play, build a massive collection that can do both), and also your playing style, also if you intend to add allies to bolster your army (and cover weak spots).

[zyl-]

I strongly agree that the Axe of Blind Fury is quite wasted on a daemon prince, and far better elsewhere. Reason being, the daemon prince already has AP2 attacks at initiative (due to the smash rule), so doubling down on that really does nothing in the end. Better to just save the points and buy no weapon for the prince than to use points to get what you already have.

As for what exactly you should get in the army, I'm one to agree that you can do just about whatever you want if you are in it for fun. The jeske is quite right when talking about waac (win at all cost) gameplay, but for fun people commonly make a themed army (in your case it may be khorn) be it optimal or not. Even though I know that my armies are commonly less than optimal, I can still win quite a bit and it's more rewarding to yell "Blood for the Blood god!" than it is to ruin every opponent (which makes people no longer want to play you). I only run competition-grade armies when I want to beat the self-proclaimed champion of Warhammer40K. He's at my club, you see

[Nehekhare]

there goes the "win" vs. "fun" - argument again =/

 

It's senseless extremes. The game has a goal, which is winning, and a purpose, which is having fun. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, winning is fun and having fun is winning.

 

A good army is one that is effective AND features the units you like.

[derpasaurus]

What!? LOGIC!?
Having fun is WINNING!?
HERETIC!
 

[Kol Saresk]

there goes the "win" vs. "fun" - argument again =/

 

It's senseless extremes. The game has a goal, which is winning, and a purpose, which is having fun. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, winning is fun and having fun is winning.

 

A good army is one that is effective AND features the units you like.

Unless you're one of those weird people who play the game for its purpose and not for its goal as the game was basically set up as an army RPG and anyone who knows anything about RPGs knows that you will have your losses with your wins and that it reflects as much on you, and therefore your character(army), as it does the dice. But I digress.

[Nehekhare]

same there: nobody wants their RPG character to die.

playing the game is fun, but you don't play to loose. It's the game itself that is competitive, simply because it isn't played cooperatively or on your own. You cannot play the game not trying to win, whether in a tournament or in a friendly game.

so if

a ) playing = trying to win

b ) playing = fun

-->trying to win = fun

jeske has good tips most of the time, because those help you win. In the end, that helps a lot more than telling people to play what they like - because they will do that anyway, but now with more understanding of the game to base their decision on. nobody needs advice on what to like.

[Kol Saresk]

Nobody wants their pet to die either. Or family members. Or friends. Or for that drink to run out. However, the moral of the story is: It happens.

 

It can be the bestest army anywhere and never lose on paper. Put on the tabletop and roll 1s three days in a row. It can be the worst army on paper, put it on the table and it rolls 6s. Am I saying build the worst army out there? Only if you really like it and you don't mind losing.

 

But just as there are people who play to win and only to win, there are people who play to have fun and win. Then there are those really really freaky weirdos(judging by how the internets responds to the existence of such beings) who play to have fun and don't care about winning because give them a video game or chessboard and they'll mop the floor with you because all they do is win in those games.

 

Yes, he does have good advice on being competitive. However, responses like "He doesn't play competitive so he is incapable of understanding what you are saying"(that one was about me) and what he said to totgeboren are... What's the word I'm looking for? Inappropriate? Rude? Unneeded? The list can go on but I digress.

 

Telling someone to only play competitively is in the same category as telling someone to only play what they like. It is either what they looking for, not appropriate at the moment, or unneeded. And only the person asking knows which one they are looking for so for Speaker A to assume that Speaker B who has a different opinion shouldn't voice it, well Speaker A may be out of line because it might be their opinion that was unneeded.

[derpasaurus]

Yeah, Jeske does give good advice, but if people don't want to listen to it because it's not their idea of fun, then ... ?
Sure, everybody wants to win. But some of the advice I've seen could be construed as "just play spacewolves instead, they're better anyway."

There's ways to make nearly anything work. Not all good lists are fun, and not all fun lists are good, but if you leave the table in any state other than depression or rage, it's probably safe to say you had a good enough time. Sometimes it depends on how the board is set up, sometimes it depends on who goes first, sometimes it depends on whose dice are hot and whose need to be fed to raccoons. I've used my fluffy (and according to internets, subpar) list and tabled armies losing 2 marine models. I've been tabled in 3 turns. Sh*t happens. More often than not it comes down to points, most games I play in. Could I adjust some things to be better on the table? sure. Do I WANT to? Clearly not, because if I do, it will not be the same as what I had wanted, and will not be as fun. For me. Everyone is different, and that's what makes this game great.

[Nehekhare]

there are people who play to win and only to win

I think that is a clichèe. Like it's counterpart, it not logically possible. Whatever list you bring and whatever happens in a game, you still more or less try to win and have more or less fun doing so. Everything else is not playing the game.

[Kol Saresk]

It might be cliché but not exactly inaccurate. To some people, winning is having fun and if they don't win, they don't have fun. Some people have fun as long as its a good game, regardless of whether or not they win so long as its a good game but they do have a preference of winning. And then there are people who couldn't care less if they won or lost because they just want a good game. So it is logically possible and it is true. Some play to win and only win because that is fun for them. And the inverse is the same. Some play only to play because that is fun to them.

 

What you and I may think of as "not playing the game" is irrelevant because there is someone out there who does think of that as playing the game. Some people don't like kill-teams and say that it isn't very 40k. But there are some who play kill-team for whatever motivation that drives them to play it.

[Norrik]

haha well i certainly didn't intend to start the "win" vs "fun" argument but i did get some good tips from everyone, even if they are differing opinions.  Thanks everyone for the help so far and if I think of any more questions i'll be sure to come to you guys first.

[nurglez]

Heh indeed :D

 

 

The problem with the internet, so many different views and they are all wrong, apart from mine of course!

 

Good luck to you on your journey to chaos, may you have fun :D

[Kol Saresk]

The problem with the internet, so many different views and they are all wrong, apart from mine of course!

Ironically, I think this view sums up the mindset of a Chaos Marine as well..............