Missing primarchs : A simpler than expected answer ?

[Sgt.Sangha]

Id like to point out that in the 41 millennium, that every original legion has some traitor marines in them. In the original heresy we had 9 and a half whole legions turn from the emperor plus a few other random marines from the remaining loyal legions. then as the years go on the new traitors were only coming from those nine originals whether it was a individual turning, a squad or company or a whole chapter. So there are marines with Gullimans geneseed, Russ's geneseed, Ferrus's geenseed, Dorn's gene seed etc..etc  that are traitor marines   

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

 

He doesn't accept Skyrar's Dark Wolves either. He is a fanatic SW, I heard he howls after drinking beer. I am not that extreme, a Space Wolf or an Imperial Fist can turn traitor, but it should be in a realistic way. Thinking about  Space Wolves begging "Oh great tyrant, show mercy upon us!" is a bit queer.

It's because of such numbties that we ended up with the Wolf of Fenris and Skyrar's Dark Wolves in the first place. If people are that annoyingly obsessed about their flavour of small plastic space soldiers then the GW team will delight in playing with their inadequacies.

 

Your friend has the seeds of his own destruction within him - very Grimdark ;)

[Wade Garrett]

Id like to point out that in the 41 millennium, that every original legion EXCEPT THE DARK ANGELS has some traitor marines in them. In the original heresy we had 9 and a half whole legions turn from the emperor plus a few other random marines from the remaining loyal legions BUT NOT THE FIRST LEGION. then as the years go on the new traitors were only coming from those EIGHT BECAUSE NO DARK ANGEL HAS FALLEN AND NOT ONE EVER WILL originals whether it was a individual turning, a squad or company or a whole chapter. So there are marines with Gullimans geneseed, Russ's geneseed, Ferrus's geenseed, Dorn's gene seed etc..etc BUT NONE WITH LION'S GENE SEED that are traitor marines

All alterations to this post paid for by anonymous seven foot tall man in a face concealing hoooded cloak. When asked for his sources on this new information, he replied "I dare you to try and prove differently." then rode a jetbike off into the sunset.

[Ethrion]

A D-B, on 04 Mar 2013 - 23:53, said:

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

Betrayer spoiler

An even more interesting quote now because in Betrayer during a conversation between Khârn and another World Eater ADB mentions a time when Khârn and the twelfth fought and thrashed the Space Wolves and how a specific wolf died badly, really badly and that how all record of the events have never and will never make it into imperial history. Something Russ is not happy about in the slightest. Perhaps ADB himself is writing about this or perhaps he knows who is covering it...

[Peter the Hermit]

^ TF? Betrayer did more damage to the SW then any other book ever
!!!  Already 80% of the fans are misinterpreting "Night of the Wolf" and see the
battle like Angron did.....+ they will remeber it like Angron( I'm damn sure about that; Russ lost and the WE killed more)...You want freaking more???

How about burning of Prospero ?

SW were totally thrashed by Mcneill making them look like wild punks who had a big help....Dan was great later in PB !!!

I'm a BT fan but I see a lot of bad stuff comming from fandom towards SW...and after my Templars, Wolves are AWESOME in every aspect of their character (that's why they have such  big fanbase)...Damn .... Fenris Hjolda I'mean...

[godking]

^ TF? Betrayer did more damage to the SW then any other book ever

!!!  Already 80% of the fans are misinterpreting "Night of the Wolf" and see the

battle like Angron did.....+ they will remeber it like Angron( I'm damn sure about that; Russ lost and the WE killed more)...You want freaking more???

How about burning of Prospero ?

SW were totally thrashed by Mcneill making them look like wild punks who had a big help....Dan was great later in PB !!!

I'm a BT fan but I see a lot of bad stuff comming from fandom towards SW...and after my Templars, Wolves are AWESOME in every aspect of their character (that's why they have such  big fanbase)...Damn .... Fenris Hjolda I'mean...

Night of the wolf was a stalemate.

 

Russ proved his point about Angron but Angron proved his point about Russ as well.

[Peter the Hermit]

^ In your opinion, yes - Now check on other forums what the average 40k fan thinks about that chapter ?

Angron won - buahahaha, WE>SW....that's the point !!!

I feel really sorry sometimes for my friends who play SW (+mine IF too), and IMHO author like ADB shoudn't give comments like that above; no offense...*just check how haters immediately bite after that comment*

 

Also when we gonna see BA (and gaish angel) & DA losing a embarrasing battle? Never I guess....

 

Strictly
opinion here, but I've always found the great rule of storytelling to
be "No joy without pain, no victory without sacrifice."

Saying
that faction X or character Y has to win all the time lest you unleash
THE DREADED ALL CAPS HATE POST doesn't make you a fan of X or Y..it
makes you a fan of TERRIBLE STORIES, right up there with people who
whine about Gandalf not having the Eagles fly Frodo to Mount Doom in the
first book of Lord of the Rings.
 

@Wade I drink to this comment.....Every defeat deserves an explanation, especially concerning Adeptus Astartes....

 

[Peter the Hermit]

A D-B, on 04 Mar 2013 - 23:53, said:

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

Betrayer spoiler

An even more interesting quote now because in Betrayer during a conversation between Khârn and another World Eater ADB mentions a time when Khârn and the twelfth fought and thrashed the Space Wolves and how a specific wolf died badly, really badly and that how all record of the events have never and will never make it into imperial history. Something Russ is not happy about in the slightest. Perhaps ADB himself is writing about this or perhaps he knows who is covering it...

Pathetic;really pathetic...

[DarthMarko]

A D-B, on 04 Mar 2013 - 23:53, said:

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

Betrayer spoiler

An even more interesting quote now because in Betrayer during a conversation between Khârn and another World Eater ADB mentions a time when Khârn and the twelfth fought and thrashed the Space Wolves and how a specific wolf died badly, really badly and that how all record of the events have never and will never make it into imperial history. Something Russ is not happy about in the slightest. Perhaps ADB himself is writing about this or perhaps he knows who is covering it...

Pathetic;really pathetic...

Both comments are...Now I'm really sad...SW are freaking Vikings, they value loyalty and glorified death above all else, because this is the basis of their culture, not to mention canix helix vs chaos...

To thrash them like this is really low, even if you ignore the haters.....

I'm gonna go and drink a darkest ale and say "hell wit ya all"...

[Blacksad]

thing with that Wolf of Fenris is that it's comparable to Lukas The Trickster and Canis. Utter crap. A whole bunch of fluff is created about the SW, giving certain guidelines as to how SW operate, think and live. Then some half-arsed ridiculous idea that goes against everything that's been written gets added to it.

 

I mean, Canis, really? some lowely human whelp that has grown up among Fenrisian wolves? Mowgli was a fenrisian then... ok... and he manages to beat a WOLF LORD in single combat? I've literaly painted that whole page in my codex white. same with Lukas's entry. it does not exist.

 

SW who are loyal turning on their brothers and offering their throat to a chaos upstart hoping he'll let them live? No. SW going traitor? sure; but at least make it semi-believable. Next thing you know they'll change the battle for Terra to the emperor and Horus duking it out, then suddonly, the emperor decides to side with Horus...

[Ethrion]

A D-B, on 04 Mar 2013 - 23:53, said:

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

Betrayer spoiler

An even more interesting quote now because in Betrayer during a conversation between Khârn and another World Eater ADB mentions a time when Khârn and the twelfth fought and thrashed the Space Wolves and how a specific wolf died badly, really badly and that how all record of the events have never and will never make it into imperial history. Something Russ is not happy about in the slightest. Perhaps ADB himself is writing about this or perhaps he knows who is covering it...

Pathetic;really pathetic...

Both comments are...Now I'm really sad...SW are freaking Vikings, they value loyalty and glorified death above all else, because this is the basis of their culture, not to mention canix helix vs chaos...

To thrash them like this is really low, even if you ignore the haters.....

I'm gonna go and drink a darkest ale and say "hell wit ya all"...

Goodness me such vitriol coming out all over the place. I wasn't even "hating" on Space Wolves, just found the comment interesting after I came across that tidbit in 'Betrayer'. Sorry for even bringing it up now. :\

[Peter the Hermit]

thing with that Wolf of Fenris is that it's comparable to Lukas The Trickster and Canis. Utter crap. A whole bunch of fluff is created about the SW, giving certain guidelines as to how SW operate, think and live. Then some half-arsed ridiculous idea that goes against everything that's been written gets added to it.

 

I mean, Canis, really? some lowely human whelp that has grown up among Fenrisian wolves? Mowgli was a fenrisian then... ok... and he manages to beat a WOLF LORD in single combat? I've literaly painted that whole page in my codex white. same with Lukas's entry. it does not exist.

 

SW who are loyal turning on their brothers and offering their throat to a chaos upstart hoping he'll let them live? No. SW going traitor? sure; but at least make it semi-believable. Next thing you know they'll change the battle for Terra to the emperor and Horus duking it out, then suddonly, the emperor decides to side with Horus...

Well friend, fluff is writen, damage is done...To constantly change (repair) and contradict "the fluff" is madness IMHO....Like writing a primarch  - one writer writes this, the other writes that....end result = contradicting non believable character.....Would you agree?

Sometimes I wish authors to talk more (between themselves) about story direction....

[A D-B]

A D-B, on 04 Mar 2013 - 23:53, said:

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

Betrayer spoiler

An even more interesting quote now because in Betrayer during a conversation between Khârn and another World Eater ADB mentions a time when Khârn and the twelfth fought and thrashed the Space Wolves and how a specific wolf died badly, really badly and that how all record of the events have never and will never make it into imperial history. Something Russ is not happy about in the slightest. Perhaps ADB himself is writing about this or perhaps he knows who is covering it...

Pathetic;really pathetic...

Both comments are...Now I'm really sad...SW are freaking Vikings, they value loyalty and glorified death above all else, because this is the basis of their culture, not to mention canix helix vs chaos...

To thrash them like this is really low, even if you ignore the haters.....

I'm gonna go and drink a darkest ale and say "hell wit ya all"...

Goodness me such vitriol coming out all over the place. I wasn't even "hating" on Space Wolves, just found the comment interesting after I came across that tidbit in 'Betrayer'. Sorry for even bringing it up now. :\

It's amazing, isn't it? The reaction, I mean.

[Blacksad]

meh, don't mind SW losing, or even getting butchered. bad stuff happens to everyone. What peeves me is 180's. "fluff" like canis, lukas, wolf of fenris, ... they're like warp immune eldar eating chaos gods... they break the setting.

 

I don't know the fluff behind Skyrar's Dark Wolves. As far as I know all that's known about them is the name, and that they exist, and that they're traitors. could just as easily be Luna Wolves as far as I know, but I don't mind them being SW. We've got plenty of marines or even entire companies walking to the 13th stone. We don't know what happened to them. Some might just have run off to go discobowling for the rest of eternity, some might have sided with chaos, some might have joined the greater good, why not? But the same rule for creating a DIY chapter should be handled: make it plausible.

[MordentHex]

Let me bait out the trolls for everyone:  "The Emperor hates space wolves."

 

Troll away!

[Peter the Hermit]

We don't know what happened to them. Some might just have run off to go discobowling for the rest of eternity, some might have sided with chaos, some might have joined the greater good, why not? But the same rule for creating a DIY chapter should be handled: make it plausible.

This is the whole point !!! But too many people are more enjoying in thrasing some other chapter, then enjoying  their own...And this is what pains me reading through threads (not just here)....I' mean I was shocked that "Night of the Wolf" can be so much misinterpreted, mostly because people are so much enjoying Russ getting pummeled then reading a story and a FREAKING point of the story.....But that's the 40k fandom I guess...

 

Same thing could be said about Dorn - lapdog, emo, traitor, failure....IF - the fall guys.....

Sorry its just my bitternes on the whole perspective based from average 40k reader.....

[Blacksad]

it's weird how anytime a discussion like this comes to the boards, and a person who happens to play SW says something that might be interpretted as positive about SW the trolls come out of the woodwork. It seems the problem isn't with the SW community having a fierce fanboy-base, but the non-SW playing communities have a huge amount of petulant haters.

 

kind of like the Matt Ward hate.

[MordentHex]

Maybe Russ got pummeled willingly to bait Angron into the trap? Likely? No, but possible.

I do not hate any Chapter/Legion specifically. Except Emperors Children, Put on some real clothes and stop licking everything.

[Peter the Hermit]

it's weird how anytime a discussion like this comes to the boards, and a person who happens to play SW says something that might be interpretted as positive about SW the trolls come out of the woodwork. It seems the problem isn't with the SW community having a fierce fanboy-base, but the non-SW playing communities have a huge amount of petulant haters.

 

kind of like the Matt Ward hate.

QFT

But from my perspective SW fanboy frustration comes when they have to repeat themself constantly to haters....I'mean I read the same stuff over, and over again....

 

Haters breed Fanatics syndrome I guess....

[A D-B]

it's weird how anytime a discussion like this comes to the boards, and a person who happens to play SW says something that might be interpretted as positive about SW the trolls come out of the woodwork. It seems the problem isn't with the SW community having a fierce fanboy-base, but the non-SW playing communities have a huge amount of petulant haters.

kind of like the Matt Ward hate.

I tend to see the exact opposite, in all honesty. In any Space Wolf discussion, any time they suffer any kind of loss at all, you'll always get 1 or 2 people claiming it's the author / poster / Codex writer "hating" the Wolves. Look at DarthMako's posts in general. Look at Peter the Hermit, calling a comment "Pathetic" because I mention at some point, the Wolves might lose a fight like every other Legion. That's "pathetic". And that Betrayer "did damage to them", like it's some kind of contest. Because their primarch... lost a fight. Like pretty much every other primarch does. But no, for the Space Wolves, that's "doing damage to them".

See?

A D-B, on 04 Mar 2013 - 23:53, said:

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

I pity that brave man or woman. I really do.

Betrayer spoiler

An even more interesting quote now because in Betrayer during a conversation between Khârn and another World Eater ADB mentions a time when Khârn and the twelfth fought and thrashed the Space Wolves and how a specific wolf died badly, really badly and that how all record of the events have never and will never make it into imperial history. Something Russ is not happy about in the slightest. Perhaps ADB himself is writing about this or perhaps he knows who is covering it...

Pathetic;really pathetic...

Both comments are...Now I'm really sad...SW are freaking Vikings, they value loyalty and glorified death above all else, because this is the basis of their culture, not to mention canix helix vs chaos...

To thrash them like this is really low, even if you ignore the haters.....

I'm gonna go and drink a darkest ale and say "hell wit ya all"...

Dude. I can't keep posting this, and at this point, you insisting I'm biased against the Wolves or ruining them is going to need some evidence, or for you to start being less crazy about it.

At this stage, let's sum up.

I've tried, countless times, to explain that the Wolves are not "better" than any other Space Marine Legion. They're not more resistant to Chaos. They're not purer, or better at fighting. I can't lie and pretend they are. They're Space Marines, with all that entails, with their own unique culture and lore. But they're still Space Marines, with the flaws and virtues that come with that condition - the same way that we're all human, and lions are all lions. They aren't more competent than any other Legion. That's not my opinion. It's my job to show that, because that's the lore. You don't need to be "better" at something to be unique and interesting.

The Night of the Wolf, as pretty much every single forum post I've seen on every 40K forum, shows clearly the value of pack tactics over insane berserkers, and brotherhood over a massed horde of individuals. Yes, Leman Russ loses a fight against Angron. I'm sorry if that's so difficult for you to believe, or you have to justify it by pretending I've got some supernatural biased hatred against "your" Chapter. The fact is, every primarch wins and loses. A more blunt response would be "Get over it" or "Learn the lore". But I'm being pretty decent given how much you complain about this and lie about my motivations as well as what I write, so I'll try to keep that up. Every primarch wins and loses. Russ doesn't get to be an exception. And you know what? Even as he's losing, it's still a stalemate. He loses a fight to Angron, but his Legion isolates Angron in a matter of heartbeats, threatening the other primarch's life with almost no effort at all, while his sons are too insane, and too far gone in their rage, to help - or even notice. Lorgar even points out to Angron that the World Eater is being too dense and stupid to understand, but Russ humiliated him and sacrificed his own pride to teach Angron an important lesson; one Angron was a fool not to take to heart.

Right now, what you're objecting to time and time again, is the fact that the Space Wolves lose at all. Where are these terrible, woeful mistreatments of "your" Legion? Leman Russ loses a fight. That's... that's it. Every primarch's going to lose a fight, dude. You may need to accept it, because it really doesn't need to be this wailing tragedy of imaginary insults against "your" fave army. Most primarchs can't claim to lose as well as Russ did, either: Magnus gets his back broken and his world destroyed. Russ loses it in the midst of the Space Wolves making the World Eaters look like fools. It's balanced. It's the literal definition of balanced. It goes 50/50 for both Legions.

thing with that Wolf of Fenris is that it's comparable to Lukas The Trickster and Canis. Utter crap. A whole bunch of fluff is created about the SW, giving certain guidelines as to how SW operate, think and live. Then some half-arsed ridiculous idea that goes against everything that's been written gets added to it.

I mean, Canis, really? some lowely human whelp that has grown up among Fenrisian wolves? Mowgli was a fenrisian then... ok... and he manages to beat a WOLF LORD in single combat? I've literaly painted that whole page in my codex white. same with Lukas's entry. it does not exist.

SW who are loyal turning on their brothers and offering their throat to a chaos upstart hoping he'll let them live? No. SW going traitor? sure; but at least make it semi-believable. Next thing you know they'll change the battle for Terra to the emperor and Horus duking it out, then suddonly, the emperor decides to side with Horus...

Well friend, fluff is writen, damage is done...To constantly change (repair) and contradict "the fluff" is madness IMHO....Like writing a primarch - one writer writes this, the other writes that....end result = contradicting non believable character.....Would you agree?

Sometimes I wish authors to talk more (between themselves) about story direction....

Not sure that makes sense. Several other authors cited Angron as the most powerful primarch in close combat, and you're already objecting to the fact he beats Russ in a fight. I prefer to make things a little more balanced than the former black and white mentions, but even so...

[Peter the Hermit]

I've said urging a author like yourself to tell how someone died pretty badly is pathetic .....Not to mention petty....And I stick to that...

Now if offended someone with this I apologize, but this is my opinion and I'll stick to it....

 

And Russ losing a fight isn't really a problem.....

 

What about Magnus joining the traitors? Forced (Mcneill) or not (ADB)?

No offense, again....

[A D-B]

I've said urging a author like yourself to tell how someone died pretty badly is pathetic .....Not to mention petty....And I stick to that...

Now if offended someone with this I apologize, but this is my opinion and I'll stick to it....

 

And Russ losing a fight isn't really a problem.....

 

How then does Betrayer "damage" the Wolves "more than any book ever"? Your words, not mine.

[Vesper]

 

Every primarch wins and loses.

Horus will win every fight, including that perticular one you have in mind. :D

 

 

Next thing you know they'll change the battle for Terra to the emperor

and Horus duking it out, then suddonly, the emperor decides to side with

Horus...

Yeahhhh, that's what I'm talking about !

[Peter the Hermit]

 

I've said urging a author like yourself to tell how someone died pretty badly is pathetic .....Not to mention petty....And I stick to that...

Now if offended someone with this I apologize, but this is my opinion and I'll stick to it....

 

And Russ losing a fight isn't really a problem.....

 

How then does Betrayer "damage" the Wolves "more than any book ever"? Your words, not mine.

Like I said  - fandom who tend to be absolute in their perspective...Correct me if I'm wrong OFC....

Already there are a lot of people who think :

- Angron sparred Russ

- No way simple SW could take down Angron, Corax was shrugging lasgun in Aurelian

etc.

[A D-B]

Peter the Hermit, on 17 Apr 2013 - 12:48, said:

I've said urging a author like yourself to tell how someone died pretty badly is pathetic .....Not to mention petty....And I stick to that...

Now if offended someone with this I apologize, but this is my opinion and I'll stick to it....

 

And Russ losing a fight isn't really a problem.....

 

What about Magnus joining the traitors? Forced (Mcneill) or not (ADB)?

No offense, again....

The Heresy lasts seven years. Magnus in Betrayer is over a year after A Thousand Sons. People change their minds over time. It's life.

 

Besides, you made a reference to the writers needing to communicate more, and Magnus's reactions in Betrayer are entirely based on Graham's plans for him. Not that a single conversation (where, incidentally, he doesn't choose either way at all, so your point is wrong, dude) needs justifying or explaining.

 

EDIT: Language edits, etc. Can't type on my iPad.

 

Peter the Hermit, on 17 Apr 2013 - 12:57, said:

 

A D-B, on 17 Apr 2013 - 12:53, said:

 

Peter the Hermit, on 17 Apr 2013 - 12:48, said:

I've said urging a author like yourself to tell how someone died pretty badly is pathetic .....Not to mention petty....And I stick to that...

Now if offended someone with this I apologize, but this is my opinion and I'll stick to it....

 

And Russ losing a fight isn't really a problem.....

How then does Betrayer "damage" the Wolves "more than any book ever"? Your words, not mine.

Like I said - fandom who tend to be absolute in their perspective...Correct me if I'm wrong OFC....

Naw, you're right. But it's that absoluteness that sucks. It's not often seen on B&C, thankfully.

 

EDIT 2: THE REVENGE OF EDITING: I hate writing on this bloody tablet. Typos everywhere. (Bad workman, blaming tools.)