Peter the Hermit Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 @A D-B, there is no oppression ...All I see is my neighbour (SW fan) getting into fetal position after this post... Now he's gonna be paranoid that you will write someting bad about SW in your next book:-) I'mean you said that the point of the story is not making the losing side look like chumps - this is all I ask..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much. Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras. Firstly, remember, it hasn't happened. That's the point. It's a scenario imagining a scene where the Wolves do lose like every other Legion. I'm talking about the entire Black Library range and 40K lore, not just the Heresy series. Ok, I'm denser than usual today. When exactly do the DA or the Ultras (whether as a legion or as a chapter) lose "one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much."? The Ultramarines suffer a lot when focusing on their own strengths (the Codex, f'rex) in their own series / the Iron Warriors crossover. Which is perfectly natural. Every faction loses, sometimes tragically, sometimes barely, sometimes humiliatingly. I've not read as much Dark Angel stuff, but let's not pretend missing the word "almost" affects the point at all. I'm not pretending anything. It's just that I was surprised at your words, as especially the Ultras stood out for me as pretty much never having lost anything ever. The Royal "Let's". Not the passive-aggressive 'I don't think you have a point' "Let's". My bad. I tend to be clearer in my passive-aggressiveness, so it's just blunt, tedious aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 @A D-B, there is no oppression ...All I see is my neighbour (SW fan) getting into fetal position after this post... Now he's gonna be paranoid that you will write someting bad about SW in your next book:-) I'mean you said that the point of the story is not making the losing side look like chumps - this is all I ask..... The entire thread is practically devoted to that. They. Don't. Look. Like. Chumps. There's a difference between losing (which the Wolves hardly ever do, compared to any other Legion!) and looking like chumps (which they patently don't). Every example you've come up with (and there aren't even that many), I've countered with context and direct evidence to the contrary. They don't look like chumps. They lose less than anyone else. They win more. Even their defeats are stalemates. No other Legion can claim a track record as good as the Wolves. Staggering. Honestly, this is just... staggering. I'm actually in awe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Maybe I'm a bit stupid, but I really don't see the big boyz (holy trinity BA,DA,UM) losing more or less than the SW.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 While the merits of any legion's/chapter's victories (and how they are portrayed along ith their defeats) is a worthy tpoic to discuss, it does det off of thetopic of this thread - which is about the Primarchs themselves. Let's get back on topic, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 As pointed out the Ultramarines in the Ultramarines series are all presented as hidebound and ineffective - the only reason they ever win in those books is because Uriel 'Am I really a Smurf?' Ventris comes up with some crazy plan that is somehow better than the tactical brilliance that is the Codex Astartes - a tome written by a Primarch famed for his tactical genius and added to by hundreds of esteemed Chapter Masters. Hardly a great day for the Rouberte or his Ultramarines. EDIT: Sorry, Bannus posted whilst I was posting :) on topic, I agree that there is NO answer to the Lost Legions or the Missing Primarch - they are deliberately left as an unspoken legend because it adds to the grimdarkness and lost knowledge theme of the setting. Finding out what happened to them would disappoint a great many fans and ruin one of the great mysteries, such as Cypher's true motives, the true nature of the Emperor's death and what it would mean, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilmittens Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 In most of the stories, either HH or 40k, the interesting parts of the stories, and the parts that make them "real" to me is the shades of grey. I did not like the Ultramarines as they seemed goody-two shoes to me until I read Mcneils books and some of the HH stuff that made them into fallable (sp?) soldiers. Same applies to SWs which makes them a lot more fun to read instead of a steamroller of knuklebones and grey ceramite. Anyways, any reasonable reader should enjoy a "loss" by their faction in a book, if its done well, and with understandable reasons for why things turned about they way they did. Now, i would enjoy the challenge of writing a SW book where they take a huge loss for some grand purpose/failure and in doing so, grow as a "character". (I sometimes view legions and chapters as characters in and of themselves sometimes) I am hoping the missing primarchs are followed through with someday with a similar situation where they obviously "fell" but maybe with a understandible reason...there, now also back on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 ^ They did grow in "aTS"...*add hypochrisy and superstition*... Also they are deprived of successors , which is the biggest flaw the chapter can have.....I'mean Magnus deprived them of making pupps !!! AD-B is this a lose situation ? Just to add ; 40k needs some mythical and fantasy stuff which comes as a refreshment from dull generic SM, and the boyz in grey will deliver that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 They refused the Codex and distain the idea of splitting the Legion, and their casualties on Prospero didn't prevent them from having successors - they tried and they got degenerate Wulfen en masse. Besides their 'no successors' fluff is older than the HH series, so it's no BL author's fault, and makes them more unique - aren't you happy that there are no imitations, just the real Rout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Nope - *read Battle of the Fang*... And yes - I'm really sorry about them not having successors....Think of the possibilities (read : monsters:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Mmm.... Battle of the Fang, eh? My fluff hunger rises within me, and my wallet weeps... You have the 13th Great Company, the Wolf Brothers, you have a cadre of Marines that ride wolves the size of rhinos, and the threat of the Wulfen lurks in all Space Wolves - as far as loyalists go you kind of have the market cornered on monsters. But if the Space Wolves want to accept the glory of Chaos ;) we have an amazing dental plan and some great retirement opportunities ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The increase in the size of the Ultramarines legion is completely explained in the series of text messages exchanged between the Emperor and Malcador. http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll293/awfulawful/text_zpse33955d8.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterseth Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I just read this whole thread, and all I can say is apparently some of you guys read some different HH books then myself... no author has slagged off the SWs at all. I fear for some of you if you get this worked up over how your "beloved wolves" are portrayed in a book. Real life is gonna suck... A-D-B bless your soul for putting up with some of this inane tripe. However, I do still hold a grudge over Ursus claws on everything (except Khârn himself) but that's a different kettle o fish entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Insane tripe? Nobody was insulted, we were civil and critique was explained on my behalf ( no matter how my opinion is flawed after 20 years of this hobby )... Which is the point of this forum....Well, maybe not in this thread, but still it was a civil discussion and I really can't see the problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I am forever going to be calling him Rowboat Gulliman now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I must agree with Peter the Hermit - this thread has slipped somewhat from the original topic and has been filled with exasperation and fanaticism, but for all that we've seen sparring between 'Wolfies' and 'Balancites' (my own terms :) ) it has maintained the B&C's legacy of being far more civil than on many sites. Do I agree with Peter the Hermit's bemoaning of the Space Wolves' position? No. But am I enjoying the fluff extracts and arguments that are coming to the fore? Most certainly :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I am forever going to be calling him Rowboat Gulliman now. You should listen audio drama "Warmaster"....Dude who's narrating is calling him Row-boo-teey :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalus Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 You are the paragon of patience A D-B. I am in awe of that in the face of such stubbornness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 *And now the famous kiss-arses (read : real fanboyz ) will come out and completely make this "normal discussion" look like fanatism vs logic....Which isn't.... It's just normal, different opinions expressed - which is the point of the FORUM BTW....* on FREAKING topic: 1 missing primarch is Omegon with Omega legion (later attached to UM) and yessss Empy knew about him always (cause he is freaking Emperor) and the other one is Nick Cave (with the bad seeds as a legion) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 *And now the famous kiss-arses (read : real fanboyz ) will come out and completely make this "normal discussion" look like fanatism vs logic....Which isn't.... It's just normal, different opinions expressed - which is the point of the FORUM BTW....* on FREAKING topic: 1 missing primarch is Omegon with Omega legion (later attached to UM) and yessss Empy knew about him always (cause he is freaking Emperor) and the other one is Nick Cave (with the bad seeds as a legion) ... By far the greatest bane to online discussion is "It's just opinion" and "opinions can't be wrong" in the face of actual evidence to the contrary. A lot of the things you've said have been dead wrong, in absolute defiance of evidence against them. You can insist something is true, but that doesn't make it right. Jesus, even that last point I read of yours was this: Maybe I'm a bit stupid, but I really don't see the big boyz (holy trinity BA,DA,UM) losing more or less than the SW.... ...posted after half a thread of examples of why the Space Wolves plainly lost much less than the other Legions. A handful of posts after people list the ways the Ultramarines and Blood Angels lose much more than the Space Wolves, there you are again, ignoring it all. What do you want from people, exactly? You ignore everything they say, then raise the exact same incorrect points a few hours later, as if they've not been disproved or shot down already. The Ultramarines losing more warriors than the Space Wolves is objective fact. Same with several other legions listed several times in this thread. It's not your opinion that the Space Wolves lost more. They didn't. Those are the facts. The details of which have been posted several times. You can say you think the Wolves somehow lost "worse", but again, that's an assumption with absolutely nothing backing it up, in the face of some pretty comprehensive rebuttals citing actual events. It's all in the thread already, and I'm not repeating it. Don't insult other people for pointing out you're strangling all debate. Maybe the people who disagree with you aren't "kiss-arses". Maybe you're just wrong, and devaluing their perspective out of knee-jerk self-defence is a petty thing to do. On somewhere like RPGnet, you'd have been banned long ago for deliberate obtuseness. I can say it's my opinion that the sky is yellow. It doesn't mean the sky is yellow. It just means I don't understand how opinions work, and that I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 *And now the famous kiss-arses (read : real fanboyz ) will come out and completely make this "normal discussion" look like fanatism vs logic....Which isn't.... It's just normal, different opinions expressed - which is the point of the FORUM BTW....* on FREAKING topic: 1 missing primarch is Omegon with Omega legion (later attached to UM) and yessss Empy knew about him always (cause he is freaking Emperor) and the other one is Nick Cave (with the bad seeds as a legion) ... Now don't start bringing Alpha Legion primarchs into your "opinions" please! Keep to your Space Puppies and leave my Alpha Legion unmolested! :( Also, the only post needed in this entire topic would be awfulawful's last post. That picture is funny and probably has more truth to it than any other attempt on making logic of the missing primarchs... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 *And now the famous kiss-arses (read : real fanboyz ) will come out and completely make this "normal discussion" look like fanatism vs logic....Which isn't.... It's just normal, different opinions expressed - which is the point of the FORUM BTW....* on FREAKING topic: 1 missing primarch is Omegon with Omega legion (later attached to UM) and yessss Empy knew about him always (cause he is freaking Emperor) and the other one is Nick Cave (with the bad seeds as a legion) ... By far the greatest bane to online discussion is "It's just opinion" and "opinions can't be wrong" in the face of actual evidence to the contrary. A lot of the things you've said have been dead wrong, in absolute defiance of evidence against them. You can insist something is true, but that doesn't make it right. Jesus, even that last point I read of yours was this: >>Maybe I'm a bit stupid, but I really don't see the big boyz (holy trinity BA,DA,UM) losing more or less than the SW.... ...posted after half a thread of examples of why the Space Wolves plainly lost much less than the other Legions. A handful of posts after people list the ways the Ultramarines and Blood Angels lose much more than the Space Wolves, there you are again, ignoring it all. What do you want from people, exactly? You ignore everything they say, then raise the exact same incorrect points a few hours later, as if they've not been disproved or shot down already. The Ultramarines losing more warriors than the Space Wolves is objective fact. Same with several other legions listed several times in this thread. It's not your opinion that the Space Wolves lost more. They didn't. Those are the facts. The details of which have been posted several times. You can say you think the Wolves somehow lost "worse", but again, that's an assumption with absolutely nothing backing it up, in the face of some pretty comprehensive rebuttals citing actual events. It's all in the thread already, and I'm not repeating it. Don't insult other people for pointing out you're strangling all debate. Maybe the people who disagree with you aren't "kiss-arses". Maybe you're just wrong, and devaluing their perspective out of knee-jerk self-defence is a petty thing to do. On somewhere like RPGnet, you'd have been banned long ago for deliberate obtuseness. I can say it's my opinion that the sky is yellow. It doesn't mean the sky is yellow. It just means I don't understand how opinions work, and that I'm wrong. Why? Cause I think different? Infact I'm not the only one who thinks that way, btw. (check the thread)... And what casualties? Evidence? Ambush at the Signus prime (BA win and Sanguinus vs Kabby also win *new*, and go to defend Terra)? Ambush at Calth (win) ? DA butchering NL with that magic teleporter? WS??? Are you like counting numbers or something? Prospero wasn't that bad? Now here is the fact - SW go to 30% of their former strenght (from heresy to great scouring ), Magnus feths up their geneseed, kills a great company and still this isn't enough.... Btw you didn't presented anything as a fact in my book, no offense.... I voiced my opinion and now fanboyz can start bashing me without any real counter argument...... P.S. SW aren't even my first army.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Don't forget Calth and Codex later...Half of the SM chapters were UM.... BA ? Ambush at Signus Prime, defence of Terra...they still split on some chapters.... DA were also near whole (until the end of heresy and that Luther thing).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 The battle of the fang is post Heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Yes some years after the scouring (which IMHO downsized SW at their current numbers) ... Also Battle of the Fang is really well writen, making the chapter almost extinguished (ty cyclops)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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