Missing primarchs : A simpler than expected answer ?

[Blacksad]

 

I've said urging a author like yourself to tell how someone died pretty badly is pathetic .....Not to mention petty....And I stick to that...

Now if offended someone with this I apologize, but this is my opinion and I'll stick to it....

 

And Russ losing a fight isn't really a problem.....

 

How then does Betrayer "damage" the Wolves "more than any book ever"? Your words, not mine.

this has been explained already. It's not the book in and on itself, but "haters" abusing bits and parts of the book to hate on the wolves. lemme see if I can find the quote again. brb

 

nm, Peter already handled it :P

[A D-B]

I've said urging a author like yourself to tell how someone died pretty badly is pathetic .....Not to mention petty....And I stick to that...

Now if offended someone with this I apologize, but this is my opinion and I'll stick to it....

And Russ losing a fight isn't really a problem.....

How then does Betrayer "damage" the Wolves "more than any book ever"? Your words, not mine.

this has been explained already. It's not the book in and on itself, but "haters" abusing bits and parts of the book to hate on the wolves. lemme see if I can find the quote again. brb

nm, Peter already handled it

He did. I tried to edit to say I got it, but my fingers hate me today.

Makes sense, yeah. Glad I don't see much of that, it'd boil my blood.

[Peter the Hermit]

First -  ty for the reply....

Second - mr. Mcneill set that out for Magnus?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Goodness, I've been playing and collecting SW for nearly 23 years and I'm still surprised at how intense people can get over them.

I believe that Betrayer shows Russ's best and worse qualities.

AD-B depicts Russ going to try to teach Angron a lesson, not kill him, which meant he was knowingly facing possibly the finest exponent of Close Quarter Battle in the Universe with one hand tied behind his back. Then, in the midst of taking a beating, he attempts to show to Angron what the Butcher's Nails were doing to his Legion. How the the VI were willing to take casualties to defend their Primarch and complete the mission, whilst the marines of the XII Legion had lost all cohesion. When he sees that Angron is beyond reasoning with and unwilling to take the next step and use his Wolf Guard to aid him bring Angron down, he withdraws and his troops suffer accordingly. Of course, Russ does that all off his own back, which is less to his credit. This provides a glimpse of what Horus later exploits to set Russ onto Magnus. In my view, it is one of the finest scenes in the HH series.

If the anti-SW crowd don't get it, then don't worry about it. They either don't want to get it, find the nuances beyond them or are just trying to wind you up.

Give AD-B a break, he's a SW player after all

On which subject, Aaron. How about doing a WIP, little brother, the Fang want piccies

[A D-B]

At last, back at a keyboard. I can type for really reals again.

First - ty for the reply....

Second - mr. Mcneill set that out for Magnus?

There's not much to set out; all that happens in Betrayer is that he makes it clear he's not ready to join either side, yet.

But yeah, it's sort of a case of knowing what's happening in the next few years of the series, so I was careful not to have Magnus tipping one way or the other. The loyalists aren't exactly an option, though.

Goodness, I've been playing and collecting SW for nearly 23 years and I'm still surprised at how intense people can get over them.

I believe that Betrayer shows Russ's best and worse qualities.

AD-B depicts Russ going to try to teach Angron a lesson, not kill him, which meant he was knowingly facing possibly the finest exponent of Close Quarter Battle in the Universe with one hand tied behind his back. Then, in the midst of taking a beating, he attempts to show to Angron what the Butcher's Nails were doing to his Legion. How the the VI were willing to take casualties to defend their Primarch and complete the mission, whilst the marines of the XII Legion had lost all cohesion. When he sees that Angron is beyond reasoning with and unwilling to take the next step and use his Wolf Guard to aid him bring Angron down, he withdraws and his troops suffer accordingly. Of course, Russ does that all off his own back, which is less to his credit. This provides a glimpse of what Horus later exploits to set Russ onto Magnus. In my view, it is one of the finest scenes in the HH series.

If the anti-SW crowd don't get it, then don't worry about it. They either don't want to get it, find the nuances beyond them or are just trying to wind you up.

Give AD-B a break, he's a SW player after all

On which subject, Aaron. How about doing a WIP, little brother, the Fang want piccies

I love you for that spoilerific explanation. It's perfect. Thanks, dude.

As for my Wolves, I've hit a freaking wall. I ruined the first five guys in a Legion Assault Squad, experimenting (and failing) on various dark greys, and that was pretty disheartening. But now I have a billion Space Wolf bitz just waiting to be used, and this week I started trying out a few in Chapter (rather than Legion) colours, and I'm much happier with them. So it may be a slow-building accidental 40K army, instead. I prefer the blue-grey to the dark grey, anyway. Especially on vehicles.

My Chaos Marines and Daemons are essentially being ignored for the moment. The guilt comes in waves.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I must admit to having gone to other way and decided to concentrate on my pre-Heresy VI Legion force.

So, apart from a handful of grey-blue wolves to play 2nd Ed, I've have handed over the rest to number one son. Got to get 'em young

Edit. sorry, reading back that is very off topic. I will try and behave

[A D-B]

I must admit to having gone to other way and decided to concentrate on my pre-Heresy VI Legion force.

So, apart from a handful of grey-blue wolves to play 2nd Ed, I've have handed over the rest to number one son. Got to get 'em young

Pics, via email or Facebook or whatever? I've only seen your ancient thread from 2011. Would love to see more.

Sending them to the Jarlsson is a worthy cause. I have a terrifying feeling Alexander will play Orks when the time comes. Not in this house, boy. Not in this house.

[Visitor13]

 

 

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

 

Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras.

[Wade Garrett]

I'd say Wolves turning to Chaos would be at least as unlikely as the Legion that worshipped the Emperor as God, or the one Primarch actually raised by him as a beloved son doing so. Or part of a legion of knights raised from birth to value fealty to their liege lord turning on both the Emperor and said liege lord.

 

And man oh man, it must be so much FUN to try and write a Horus Heresy novel knowing that, for example, a fight between Mortarion and the Khan is going to be vivisected down to whose armor got dirtier as part of the endless quest for "My Primarch can beat up your Primarch."

 

Which is the most important thing about the Heresy, after all.

[Peter the Hermit]

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras.

Don't apologize in advance; this is a very fair question which I would like an answer too....also exalted....

Just to add - SW get killed in "fear to tread", pummeled on Prospero, and take heavy damage in the Betrayer....enough is enough

[A D-B]

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras.

Firstly, remember, it hasn't happened. That's the point. It's a scenario imagining a scene where the Wolves do lose like every other Legion. I'm talking about the entire Black Library range and 40K lore, not just the Heresy series.

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras.

Don't apologize in advance; this is a very fair question which I would like an answer too....also exalted....

Just to add - SW get killed in "fear to tread", pummeled on Prospero, and take heavy damage in the Betrayer....enough is enough

Here's where your objections are a little... anaemic. You're objecting to the Space Wolves taking a handful of casualties, in opposition to them being presented as the most powerful Legion ever, which is what Prospero Burns painted them as. Now, Prospero Burns was all unreliable narration and in-universe perspective (which is why it was clever and cool), but a lot of Space Wolf fans took it as gospel. It's not true, but now those fans react badly against anyone pointing out that it's not true. The Wolves aren't better at fighting than any other Space Marines. The Wolves aren't the one Legion everyone fears more than any other. The Wolves didn't destroy the Lost Legions. It's not my opinion. My opinion is meaningless. It's 25+ years of lore. That's what matters. That's what I answer to.

With respect, you just don't have a case here, at all.

A few Space Wolves die in Fear to Tread. Like, one squad? They have a few minutes of battle with the World Eaters in Betrayer, in a scene where (as established) they humiliate Angron and the World Eaters, but the Traitors are too stubborn/broken to realise it. Them being "pummelled" on Prospero is in opposition to them wiping out an entire Legion and razing its homeworld to the ground.

Do you see what I mean? Look at these objections in context. Are any Wolves allowed to die? Ever? Because hardly any have fallen so far, and they're winning pretty much every fight they take part in, and you're still insisting it's making them look bad, and they don't deserve such treatment. Compare their losses in the Heresy so far with the Ultramarines... the Iron Hands... the Salamanders... the Blood Angels... the Raven Guard... the World Eaters... the Word Bearers... the Thousand Sons...

This is what it's like to write the Wolves. If they don't win, win, win, no casualties, absolute triumph, win, win, win... then you get 1% of the fandom up in arms about imaginary persecution and "haters". It's not about hating the Space Wolves. It's about their most fanatical fans needing to realise they're just as balanced as every other Legion. They win and lose, like everyone else. And so far, they get to look a lot better and cooler winning than most others, while losing a lot less.

[Vesper]

I can't wait for someone to reveal that the Space Wolves named themselves that way because they were Luna Wolves wannabes and recognized Horus as their spiritual liege.

[Peter the Hermit]

 I really didn't see BA and their DC fall...like ever...or any other first founding big boyz...Well not without making them "rarhggh cool"....So I don't see why SW need to be in the losing speartip....

 

I
can't wait for someone to reveal that the Space Wolves named themselves
that way because they were Luna Wolves wannabes and recognized Horus as
their spiritual liege.

 

@Vesper how's the weather in EoT these days?

[Vesper]

I would say that the legions that are supposed to be on Terra still have to wait a little bit before getting bled like crazy.

[Peter the Hermit]

So, it is sunny?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Just to add - SW get killed in "fear to tread", pummeled on Prospero, and take heavy damage in the Betrayer....enough is enough

I beg to disagree, a small group of brothers were killed by an overwhelming number of Blood Angels in 'Fear to Tread'. In Prospero Burns the VI Legion went head to head with another (psychically talented) Legion and their defence forces on their home world (ground of the enemy's choosing) and won. Then in Betrayer they showed themselves to be an honourable, disciplined force, capable of conducting a withdrawal in contact with another (larger) Legion.

Our cup is certainly more than half full, little brother

[A D-B]

 I really didn't see BA and their DC fall...like ever...or any other first founding big boyz...Well not without making them "rarhggh cool"....So I don't see why SW need to be in the losing speartip....

 

They're not. That's the point. They're not. They've lost less than pretty much any other loyalist Legion so far. How many Blood Angels died on Signus Prime when the entire Legion went mental in a neighbourhood of daemons? Howe many Ultramarines died at Calth and the rest of Ultramar? How many Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders died at Isstvan V? How many Imperial Fists died at Phall?

 

There is no "losing speartip". I can't make it any clearer. You're objectively, plainly wrong. 

 

This is exactly what I mean. Evidence never seems to mean anything in this debate. Any loss (even when it's a stalemate!) that the Space Wolves suffer is blown wildly out of proportion. Even when they win more and lose less than any other faction, you'll get 1 or 2 people insisting it's unfair or wrong that the Wolves lose even that much.

 

That's my whole point. One day, the Wolves will lose like all the other factions. I pity whoever is brave enough to write that story, let me tell you. 

[Visitor13]

 

 

 

 

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

 

Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras.

 

Firstly, remember, it hasn't happened. That's the point. It's a scenario imagining a scene where the Wolves do lose like every other Legion. I'm talking about the entire Black Library range and 40K lore, not just the Heresy series. 

 

Ok, I'm denser than usual today. When exactly do the DA or the Ultras (whether as a legion or as a chapter) lose "one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much."?

[Peter the Hermit]

UM & BA had won in the end IIRC.....

Dudes on Istvaan (even after they had been suckered) managed to put a hell of the fight....

IF lowly catptain managed to embarrass mighty Perturabo before retreat order came.....

 

Now I'm really getting pissed and I will bow out of this one....

[Wade Garrett]

I really didn't see BA and their DC fall...like ever...or any other first founding big boyz...Well not without making them "rarhggh cool"....So I don't see why SW need to be in the losing speartip....

 

 

I would point out the Iron Hands in Fulgrim and Angel Exterminatus, the Ultramarines in Know No Fear and Betrayer, the Imperial Fists in Angel Exterminatus and Crimson Fist, and on the traitor side the Night Lords had something like 20% casualties after the Dark Angels thrashed them in the Thramas Crusade and the Thousand Sons are stuck in the rubble of their homeworld and devolving into goo held togather by power armor.

 

Clearly, it is the Space Wolves who are the whipping boys of the Horus Heresy.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

The Dark Angels are made to look like idiots and liars in 'Angels of Darkness' - even though we have the whole unreliable narrator/open lie testimony, we have Cypher kill a veteran squad with their own fail safe as their Chaplain agrees with a Fallen and IIRC he steals their geneseed. That sounds pretty much like a loss with none of their redeeming features to me :)

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

 

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

 

Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras.

 

Firstly, remember, it hasn't happened. That's the point. It's a scenario imagining a scene where the Wolves do lose like every other Legion. I'm talking about the entire Black Library range and 40K lore, not just the Heresy series. 

 

Ok, I'm denser than usual today. When exactly do the DA or the Ultras (whether as a legion or as a chapter) lose "one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much."?

 

The Ultramarines suffer a lot when focusing on their own strengths (the Codex, f'rex) in their own series / the Iron Warriors crossover. Which is perfectly natural. Every faction loses, sometimes tragically, sometimes barely, sometimes humiliatingly. I've not read as much Dark Angel stuff, but let's not pretend missing the word "almost" affects the point at all.

 

The one Legion/faction anyone would ever, ever hesitate to show losing humiliatingly is the Space Wolves. I know that, because several of us have had this very conversation behind the scenes. This thread, and the others like it, are why. The biased, stubborn vitriol from a vocal subsect of the fandom is bewildering at best, intimidating at worst.

[A D-B]

UM & BA had won in the end IIRC.....

Dudes on Istvaan (even after they had been suckered) managed to put a hell of the fight....

IF lowly catptain managed to embarrass mighty Perturabo before retreat order came.....

 

Now I'm really getting pissed and I will bow out of this one....

 

Except... the Wolves won at Prospero. The Wolves won in the Night of the Wolf, though you could also consider it a stalemate, seeing as even Lorgar was telling Angron he was too meatheaded to realise he lost and was humiliated. 

 

Do you see what I mean? You're objecting to nothing, imagining oppression heaped upon the Wolves. There's no way to make it clearer.

[Visitor13]

 

 

 

 

 

 

One day - one day - someone will write about the Space Wolves losing a major fight. Not winning through heavy losses, or losing a battle but winning the war. Not even losing heroically and looking great as they die. I mean they'll die horribly. The Wolves will lose something major, the way every other Legion is shown to lose at least one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much.

 

Sorry for asking this, but... 'every other legion'? I can't think of anything like that with regard to the Dark Angels (maybe Caliban?) and the Ultras.

 

Firstly, remember, it hasn't happened. That's the point. It's a scenario imagining a scene where the Wolves do lose like every other Legion. I'm talking about the entire Black Library range and 40K lore, not just the Heresy series. 

 

Ok, I'm denser than usual today. When exactly do the DA or the Ultras (whether as a legion or as a chapter) lose "one major thing where their redeeming features don't really show through much."?

 

The Ultramarines suffer a lot when focusing on their own strengths (the Codex, f'rex) in their own series / the Iron Warriors crossover. Which is perfectly natural. Every faction loses, sometimes tragically, sometimes barely, sometimes humiliatingly. I've not read as much Dark Angel stuff, but let's not pretend missing the word "almost" affects the point at all.

 

I'm not pretending anything. It's just that I was surprised at your words, as especially the Ultras stood out for me as pretty much never having lost anything ever.

[RapatoR]

UM & BA had won in the end IIRC.....

Dudes on Istvaan (even after they had been suckered) managed to put a hell of the fight....

IF lowly catptain managed to embarrass mighty Perturabo before retreat order came.....

 

Now I'm really getting pissed and I will bow out of this one....

So all that SW did in battle was standing around, doing nothing except occasianaly saying potato? 

I seriously cant believe someone would even cosider engagements of SW so far as showing them in a bad light.

Looking at this, I am really not looking forward to the ramblings after someone will write about battle at Yarant.