I am angry

[*Furyou Miko]

It's not often that I get actually angry over stuff GW does. Yes, sometimes I get a little miffed, or grouchy and play it up, but...

 

Well, I'm hoping this is a joke thrown up by my fever. In the new White Dwarf, there is a new Black Library book announced, "Death of Antagonis" by David Annandale.

 

Now, I like the Black Dragons, in as much as I'm peripherally aware of them as a mutant Space Marine chapter with elbow-blades. I started reading the (rather spoileriffic) description of the book and wishing I could afford it. Until I got to this passage;

 

"The wider cast of characters also reveals some gems, my favourite being Canoness Errant Stheno - a warrior woman so devout that she oversaw the eradication of her own order of Battle Sisters for heresy. She is a powerful figure and one who lends a great deal to the overall storytelling, providing an excellent foil not only to the Black Dragons but also to Inquisitor Lettinger of the Ordo Malleus."

 

Why?

 

I blame Black Library for this as much as Mr. Annandale - they HAVE editors whose job it is to make sure that books don't conflict with existing fluff!

 

There have been implications, and occasional mentions of heretic Battle Sisters in other books, but always on a small scale and usually they manage to redeem themselves... yet here, we have a full order of Battle Sisters turned heretic just as a framing device for a character who is almost certainly going to be portrayed as a villain as much as the Canoness from Redemption Corps - at least THAT evil Canoness had the excuse of theoretically still being loyal to the Emperor, even if she was answering to a second master in the secret organisation that were planning to doom an entire sector to force the High Lords to shore up the near-terra defences.

 

Why do they do this to us? Sisters as supposed to be incorruptible. If they pulled something like this with the Grey Knights, there would be mobs screaming at the gates of the Lenton facility! You'd have protestors scaling the Space Marine gate guard!

 

Why is it OK for them to turn the incorruptible Sisters into mere heretic fodder? Is it because the Sisters are women? Is it because they're bitter that they can't just write us out of the game? Have they not NOTICED that at least 10% of their fanbase are now female?

[Vesper]

I don't actually believe that something or someone is incorruptible. Not even the emperor, as explained in Realm of Chaos.

Where I would echo your displeasure, is that at some point, SoB have been turned into a narrative tool to make other factions look awesome / put a character under the spotlights, when there's clear potential in storytelling with Sister of Battle other than those poor writing tricks that are rather cheap.

[Token]

Daemonifuge also has some sisters falling to chaos, but that comic is perhaps not canon?

[*Furyou Miko]

Daemonifuge only has the tortured souls of Sisters driven completely mad with suffering attacking everything they see, including each other and the daemons. Can't really call that 'heretical'. The same comic included Sisters who, despite being trapped in the realm of a Slaaneshi daemon prince and bundled up into a big sack of daemon stuff that subjected them to intense sensation for ten years kept their faith and maintained their sanity.

[Olis]

I must say I agree with Vesper in regard to the idea the no-one is incorruptible (including the vaunted Grey Knights). 

 

I do think this statement:

 

Why do they do this to us? Sisters as supposed to be incorruptible. If they pulled something like this with the Grey Knights, there would be mobs screaming at the gates of the Lenton facility! You'd have protestors scaling the Space Marine gate guard!

 

Is a bit of an over-reaction, I think. I doubt such a thing would happen really, as many of the serious GK collectors tend to be older folks who've got better things to do with their time (although some may very get miffed at the idea regardless). 

 

Considering there was already the Rogue Trader artwork with 'Sister Sin' (which was more a product of it's time than anything meaningful, I must admit), it was only a matter of time before someone took that idea further. Basically, what I'm trying to say is; don't expect anything in 40k to be a sacred cow. Sooner or later it will be eaten/abused/retconned/built upon (depending on your POV).

[*Furyou Miko]

More hyperbole than over-reaction.

 

Am I really the only remaining bastion against the hordes of 'Chaos Sister' worshippers?

[Cmdr Shepard]

The fluff of a 25 years evolving franchising changes. It is inevitable and honestly the cliché of the "totally uncorruptible Sisters" always appeared a little illogical because they are common human. Regardless their believes and training they are still human. Even the post-human Space Marine are not completely immune to Chaos so how can they achieve such "resistance".

 

 

I blame Black Library for this as much as Mr. Annandale - they HAVE editors whose job it is to make sure that books don't conflict with existing fluff!

 

The author of a book has the right to represent the characters in the way he/she likes. BL authors may write story in a "fixed frame" (namely the existing 40K universe) but have, and I'd say must have, the right to interpretate it. That's the essence of art, as we conceive it and it's undeniably connected with the concepts of freedom of speech and opinion. I don't want to turn this topic into a sociological-juridical discussion so I won't elaborate this statement further.

So I will just say I don't blame an author for persuing his/her vision of the "existing fluff". I may like or dislike their interpretation but they do have the right to chance "existing fluff". Remember evolution is the key to progress. If humanity never changed things, its own status quo, we wouldn't have this conversation on the web ;)

 

 

Is it because the Sisters are women? Is it because they're bitter that they can't just write us out of the game? Have they not NOTICED that at least 10% of their fanbase are now female? 

 

I don't see how it can be related to sexism. Honestly in the 21st Humanity does not need other "female vs male" fights. Equality is important for most of us so don't indulge in such things, especially when there is no trace of them in news we are talking about. I profoundly dislike both discrimination and reverse discrimination so please do not fuel them with our hobby.

Thanks ;)

[derpasaurus]

They did something with GK like that, though, remember? (and it also ties into the Sister Hate) The all powerful Space Marine Master Race of Incorruptible Ultimate Daemon Slayers suddenly felt the need to slaughter an entire detachment of Battle Sisters and bathe in their blood for "an edge" against a Daemonic force.

What?

[AdmLancel]

I'm with you on this, I get tired of the random corruptions being the vast majority of what we get for fluff.  Now entire orders being killed for heresy. Ugh.  If they would at least acknowledge this was an extreme rarity that would be one thing, but I don't even think they bother to mention that anymore.  What can we do though?  Sisters probably have the smallest fanbase in the entire game.  It took forever just for Bolter and Chainsword to give Sisters their own forum so we didn't have to sort through the pages of Grey Knights spam to find the one single Sisters post that got made in the last 24 hours, and even then this place is fairly quiet.

 

Still, if she does turn out to be a villain, I might be okay with this.  Might offer an excuse to say there was only one heretic in that Order to begin with.  Or maybe that's the plot twist in the end even.

 

I agree that Sisters are only human and technically could be corrupted, but I kind of like the notion of how it just doesn't happen, or there's always some loophole that means they really weren't corrupted, but they were tricked into doing something stupid.

 

Maybe that's just doubt, and there's always room for doubt, but it's a hopeful kind of doubt in the case of the Sisters.

 

So maybe even in this book it could turn out that she killed her own order for false reasons, then it turns out none of them were corrupted after all when she realizes the horror of what she's done.

 

But hey, this is 40k, road to disappointment and all that.

[Cmdr Shepard]

They did something with GK like that, though, remember? (and it also ties into the Sister Hate) The all powerful Space Marine Master Race of Incorruptible Ultimate Daemon Slayers suddenly felt the need to slaughter an entire detachment of Battle Sisters and bathe in their blood for "an edge" against a Daemonic force.

 

What?

 

That was one of the most illogical parts of C:GK fluff, alongside with the warrior who killed Daemon with the bones of a dead Grand Master.

However, if I'm not mistaken, OP is not about illogical fluff but it's complain about a BL interpretation of what is considered by some, or many (no need to argue on the number ;) , and essential canon.

 

If we want to talk about illogical fluff from codices, count on me... I have several example of really "bad fluff", the "GK need sisters' blood" and "only the bones of the defunct Grand Master will kill the daemon" are a clear example of them....;)

 

 

Sisters probably have the smallest fanbase in the entire game. 

 

I think the reason is not the Sisters per se but due to the Ecclesiarchy's ideology they protect. Have you even wondered why in all other gaming community women characters are beloved by a large fan base (just look at videogames, movies, TV-series etc) but SoB have less fans?

It's due to the Ecclesiarchy, my friend. There are many persons who don't like the Ecclesiarchy and you cannot blame them ;)

 

I don't want to be rude with Ecclesiarchy fans since this is your forum (it's unpolite to not be nice in someone else house ;) but from an in-universe point of view the Ecclesiarchy ruined humanity. They twisted the Emperor's words, they force people to treat him like a god while he didn't want to be considered so. They made persons to forgett He was a man of science and understanding, etc...

Beside their organization is even de facto illegal under Imperial Law.

 

So in the end, the "lack of love" for SoB is a direct consequence of their relationship with the imperial church.

If they made a group of warrior women not bound to the ecclesiarchy they will get soon my "love"... and even a great one ;)

 

Just my opinion, though.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I'm more annoyed than angry, but I do not like this idea at all, and I even play the Ordo Hereticus :(

 

So let me get this straight... one super extremist in an order so safe they're used to police other orders went and decided her entire order was wrong, executed them all or some other such thing, and that individual isn't the heretic that should be put down?

 

Regardless of the Ecclesiarchy (who according to the Thorians, who are the most close to right according to old old fluff, have at least gotten the basic fact that the Emperor ascended correctly) connection to the Sisters affecting fanbase, the point is the Adepta Sororitas have one series where they're the main characters.  I say series rather loosely because two books and an audio drama aren't exactly a series.  Aside from these books, they are rather consistently used as "ZOMG, it slaughtered SIsters who are the best of humans, we need the Space Marine(s) to save the day!" or "ZOMG the daemons et the Sister's brains and corrupted them, we need the Space Marine(s) to save the day!" or "Oh noes, the holy SIsters are oppressing the main character, how shall he survive?" and some such.

 

While it is a universe and setting of depression and oppression, a fatalistic almost nihilistic place, it would do well for there to be more positive "Wow, look what she did, the Sisters are totally awesome!" things to be written about them so that more people will go "I want to order Sisters models and be awesome like them!" so that more support and a bigger fanbase exist.

 

I'm keeping my Sororitas 'til they pry them from my cold, dead fingers, but come on!

[derpasaurus]

But Shepard, that is exactly why I like them! I was drawn to them by the models and the sheer amount of FIRE. (Thank you, Dawn of War Soulstorm) Then I found the fluff and realized they're completely bass ackwards from what The Emperor actually intended. And yet, they are probably the most fanatic defenders of the human race. Poor, misguided nuns.  

Also, they're completely different strategically (and ideologically) from my chaos marines, so it's a fun change.
Maybe the reason I don't mind the Ecclesiarchy being so weird is because I started with what some would see as the most brutal of heretic warbands. lol

[Fibonacci]

I never saw Sister of Battle as being incorruptible.  I do adhere to the belief that only one sister has ever willingly turned.  The big point here is that SoB are still human. They can still be tricked or fall victims to psychic manipulations.  Their devotion and faith make them better able to resist but they are still human.  While there are plenty of examples of those that have fallen because of posession, corruption, force or trickery, Mirial is the only one to ever make the consious choice to abandon the Emperor for the ruinous powers of Chaos.  Yet even in Mirial's story there has been a full order perverted and courpted to follow Slaanesh's champion.

 

HOWEVER!   A canoness killing her order because of heresy?  Wha-whut?  Military orders do not work that way.  If a canoness was so lax as to let her entire order fall she should be the first to be purged.  I see only one "heretic" in this story and she is the survivor.  One weak mind duped into believing her order was corrupted and conned into murdering those faithful to the Emperor.  Somtimes it seems BL is little more than fan-fic with an editor.  It is as much cannon as FFG's 40K: The Gathering card game.

[Cmdr Shepard]

But Shepard, that is exactly why I like them! I was drawn to them by the models and the sheer amount of FIRE. (Thank you, Dawn of War Soulstorm) Then I found the fluff and realized they're completely bass ackwards from what The Emperor actually intended. And yet, they are probably the most fanatic defenders of the human race. Poor, misguided nuns.

Also, they're completely different strategically (and ideologically) from my chaos marines, so it's a fun change.

Maybe the reason I don't mind the Ecclesiarchy being so weird is because I started with what some would see as the most brutal of heretic warbands. lol

I was talking about fluff not the gaming aspect. I too wanted to start a SoB and see how it would play on the table. Sadly I don't want build an all metal army.

Back on the fluff:

Everyone have their own opinions , my friend, and most of the times they are different from others

In fact it's called individuality and I truly value it.

Personally I have a profound dislike for the Ecclesiarchy due the reasons I posted above. I have more respect for the "heretic warbands" you mentioned.

I suppose you are referring to Night Lords and I have a profound respect for them. They sacrified nearly everything for their own principles and this is worth my respect.

It will always be.

EDIT: fixed typing error

[derpasaurus]

Woot! 

[Cmdr Shepard]

Woot! 

 

You mean you appreacited my appreaciation for Night Lords? ;)

[derpasaurus]

Yes :D
It took my local meta nearly 2 years to get a 2nd Night Lord player. lol

But on topic, yes, I understand the idea that sisters CLAIM to be incorruptible, but in the end they are only human. They may have a huge boost, considering their faith alone gives them a 6+ invulnerable save, but hey, things can happen. 

[*Furyou Miko]

It's not just a claim. They don't even claim to be incorruptible. But in the entire history of the Sisters of Battle, only one Sister has fallen to Chaos, and she's a named, specific character who is supposedly so epic she makes Lucius look slow (hence why she has no game rules).

[derpasaurus]

I know, it's just one of those things that happens, and because it's not a Space Marine chapter it gets brushed aside. Which is sad.

[BassWave]

I would like to put in some input. I had started reading the book yesterday, and so far there is a lot of mystery as to the exact reason why the Cannoness wiped out her order. The book says that the exact nature of the taint was not clear, but because the Cannoness was so well respected, nobody questioned her authority.

 

Now, I too like to believe there are humans that are incorruptible (to the forces of Chaos at least). However human beings are not perfect, and will make mistakes. In the world of 40k, its easy to make rash actions due to overzealousness. What I'm getting at is that the Cannoness might have been fooled into making the most tragic mistake in her life. I'll finish the book and find out what I can. However, I'll point out againt that the book stresses the fact that what exactly was wrong with her order is a mystery.

[Vesper]

Anyway, you SoB players are always yelling at something.

You get a WD codex, you're unhappy, you can only make squads by buying three metal sisters at a time and you're unhappy, a Canoness wipes out a full order and you're unhappy...

Come on, just enjoy what you have !

[*Furyou Miko]

I like the WD codex, so eat those words... the rest of it would annoy anyone!

[Vesper]

Nothing that can be compared with what we, Chaos players, have to suffer. We can't have Chosen Terminators :(.

[Sabathiel]

Half the time Sisters of Battle are in Black Libary they are corrupted.  Which is ridicoulsy and ruins Sabathiel character as she is suppose to be the only sister to fall.  Sister of battle is suppose to be able to resist chaos where a space marine would fall (a small mind is a tidy mind).  Also if a sister is accused of heresy is she not suppose to become a repentia?  The amount of times sisters fall to chaos or die in black libary is probably greater then the total amount of sisters of battle.  Everytime I see sisters in black libary they are always used as the punching bag and suffer from the worf effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXrlhN9rPoc This is why I don't consider black libary cannon and just think of it as glorified fan fiction.

[Warsmith Aznable]

It seems like GW doesn't really know what to do with the Sisters. They started out as fetish fuel, then became the henchmen of Inquisitors, and when they finally get the spotlight in their own codex again it's a WD that seems to say "here, now leave us alone about it."

In the fluff and BL they seem to exist only to be stuffed into the fridge.

The Ecclesiarchy has a lot more potential than GW is letting them run with. It could be they don't want to give them more spotlight because of IRL sensitivities about religion, I don't know, but I think they perfectly sum up the 40k universe: completely horrific, yet absolutely necessary.

As far as falling to heresy (to address the OP complaint about their supposed incorruptibility), I look at it two ways. The Ecclesiarchy is notorious for overreacting, so it could be that their heresy was something extraordinarily niggling. Maybe not even their fault. How many innocents does the Imperium in general kill, just to be on the safe side? Add that to the ultra-dogmatic Ministorum and it's not hard to imagine at least one group of Sisters getting put to the fire for a minor infraction.

And on the other hand, if Primarchs and Space Marines can go bad what's so special about an orphan girl? It's bound to happen here and there throughout their existence, just as IRL it's not uncommon for lifelong religious people to break away from the faith of their upbringing, or even cast it off completely. Sisters are awesomely faithful, but they're still only human. If they were completely incorruptible then we wouldn't have Repentia for our Elites slot.

Now, if you wanted to argue about a preponderance of players making their Sisters fallen to Slaanesh, that's a different argument. I tend to think if Sisters fall then Khorne is the more obvious choice, seeing as how they like to kill heretics, maim those less faithful, and burn witches.