Emperor's Genes eh? Prove it!

[Ravenfeld]

Hey there, seems like I am doing a lot of scouting on behalf of my friends who are getting back into 40k. So, you're all psychic, special, and mean.. or so I hear. I want to know what makes you guys the best around, what units do you feel are the best you can field & why? What tactics work best for you in the competitive scene? Why do YOU love the GK so much?

 

I am looking to get the feel for what makes the GK tick so that I can advise my friend on how best to equip and array his forces in upcoming games. Naturally he will do his own research, but I wanted to get a good idea of what you guys (being awesome B&C members) think so that I can give him solid feed back!

 

So, in short, just post what you love about the GK & why, I'll ask follow up questions as the thread progresses.

 

Thank you,

Raven.

[Gentlemanloser]

20 point marines with Storm bolters and power wepaons makes other players cry.

 

Apart from that, I like NDKs.  Really, that's it rule wise.  I love the look of the new PAGK plastics, and love the old Metal GKT.

 

Others will point you towards;

 

The Vindicare (beats look out, sir! and eats AV14 for breakfast.  Also breaks funky wargear)

Coteaz (undercosted, and brings *so* much to the table.  reroll seize, shoot those coming in from reserves within 12".  Unlocks Henchmen as troops.  PML2 with access to divination)

Pyschotroke Grenades (Random IWIN for CC)

Warrior Accolytes (cheap, cheap, cheap)

Dual TL Autocannon Dreads (becuase no one else shoots quite as much S8 as these guys)

Psybolt Ammo Heavy Bolter Razorbacks (TL S6 for only 50 points)

 

I'm sure I've missed a few, but those are the highlights.

 

Edit;

 

Death Cult Assassins (If you positively have to kill someone in CC.  If they had Frags grenades, would be one of the best units in the game.  Period.  Oh and Coteaz makes them scoring.)

 

Edit2;

 

One reason would be the ability to take Terminators as Troops, without requiring an IC to 'unlock'.  It's a shame they are mostly outperformed in every aspec by Strikes.

[thade]

We have a lot of members on here who will (eagerly <3) speak to their likes and dislikes of various tactics. The name 'Coteaz' will invariably be dropped, and possibly 'Draigo'. The nice thing about the GK codex is that it's pretty flexible; our rank and file troops are beefier than normal space marines, each packing Nemesis Force Weapons and able to jump to Str 5 in melee, also packing storm bolters that can be S4 or S5. We have impressive footslogging, reasonable transport options with Rhinos and LRs, and some stellar mobility/alpha strike potential with our deep striking, restricting opponent deep striking, Storm Ravens, and teleporter pack shunting. Psycannons are really versatile weapons, working well against infantry and armor alike, and our HQs are arguably the most powerful and most adaptable in all of 40k.

Why do I play GK? The models look freakin' awesome and the fluff is really something. I'm one of those old-mindset players that prefers the 4th Edition codex's fluff, with a very large helping of A. D-B.'s The Emperor's Gift. My first experience with GK was in Dawn of War, where the unique GK unit would run around with their echoing voices, saying catastrohpic and delightful things like "The enemies of man cannot stand before us!" That game drew me to 40k, and the GK were a big part of that reason.

ADDENDUM: GML, I see you already mentioned Coteaz while I was writing this. I lol'd.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hey, can't hide the truth!

Also, Initiative 6 Halberds are pretty, beefy.

We get to move quicker (especial now the I nerf to FC) that all but the quickest Eldar in the game.

+1I would have been resonable. +2I is frankly a joke.

Why do I play GK? The models look freakin' awesome and the fluff is really something.

Exactly the reason I stick with them, especially after this codex.

Every Marine is a Psyker? Sign me up!

Shame I never really get to use thier powers. :(

[thade]

Shame I never really get to use thier powers.

Are your opponents mostly Eldar, Nids, and Space Puppies? haha. That was pretty common around where I am for a while as the "answer" to GK. And my marines, which I always fielded a librarian with. GK can survive without their powers, but they're very fun to use.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye. Well, not Nids, as no one plays those any more. lol

I miss hammerhand, but I can get by without the +1S. CC is a *lot* less common these days. Sadly.

Edit;

Another thing to add is a bare bones 25 point Inquisitor as an 'Ally' tax.

Edit2;

with a very large helping of A. D-B.'s

*grumble*Logan*grumble*GKGM*grumble*decapitation*grumble*

[Inquisitor Fox]

Because no one expects the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition! ;)  Everything you have been told is a lie!

 

Seriously though, I love the Inquisition.  I love the hypocrisy and duality of it, the very essence of what the Inquisition is and does.  The Shadow War, the last bastion of reason and scientific approaches in an otherwise grim, hyper-religious setting.  The ever lasting quest for knowledge, the asking of why and the rationality of it.  The ultimate expression of mankind's war with itself and that the real way to win is by letting the Emperor die and not fighting for control (the Star Child).  The Thorians.

 

What can you not do with an Inquisitorial Retinue?  Seriously, both in game rules and modelling ideas, whatever wacky zaney thought you have you can reflect there.  Want a Harlequin with your Grey Knights?  Counts-as DCA.  Tau Fire Warrior?  Warrior Henchmen with Imperial wargear.  I have a Squat plasma-gunner in Carapace in my retinue, painted up like a Dwarven Slayer with bright orange beard.  I figure what else would make a fellow swear a Slayer Oath in 40K than having his home system destroyed by Tyrannids while he was off world, since he obviously could have turned back the whole hive fleet if he had been there ;)

 

The dark mystery of the Inquisition and it's convoluted goals is simply awesome.

 

The basic Grey Knight troops are fantastic.  Point for point they're better off than equivalent Space Marines in almost every respect (better gun, better melee weapon, psychic powers, all for a fairly minor 33% or so increase.  Most anyone would gladly pay that for the gear).  Storm Ravens as a Fast Attack option, teleportation, the vast majority of the Codex (and both our Troops choices ironically) can deep strike inherently.  The sheer number of options and different ways you can annihilate your foe and get the jump on him is impressive.

 

Really though, I think it all comes back down to character.  We're the Warhammer 40K equivalent of Men-in-Black, of X-Com, of the X-files.  Titan is essentially a giant new version of Area 51.  You can dream it?  The Inquisition can do it.  Let your mind and hobby run wild.

[Ravenfeld]

Well as awesome as all that sounds I am looking for specific layouts and their applications. I don't need to be sold on how awesome GK's are because I myself am not going to collect them (although a small allied counts as death watch may be in order as allies for my Imp Guard). I just want to know what the best choices are and what the worst choices are in a competitive setting. I am okay with cookie cutter builds or unique strategies, just want to get a feel for what is best. I also want details! What equipment is best & why, what makes this unit better than that one? Surely the GK can't just be "every unit is awesome. dot.. the end" That would be ridiculous...surely?

[Inquisitor Fox]

Well I do happen to think every unit is awesome, but I may be biased ;)

 

A "typical" infantry Strike Squad is 10 guys, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammunition.  Usually people like to throw one dude with a Daemonhammer in there.  250 points assuming the presence of a single daemonhammer.

 

A "typical" Terminator squad is 5 guys, 1 psycannon, psybolt ammunition (swaps to halberds or hammers are free) for 245 points.

 

Note the nearly identical costs there, it's really pick your poison.  One unit of most ANYTHING in our book is 200 to 300 points.

 

Typical Dreadnought loadout is as a Heavy Support option, with 2 TL autocannons, psybolt ammunition for 135 points.  4 TL S8 shots at 48" and BS4.  You can spend more points, take it as an Elite Venerable Dread if you really want, but meh.

 

Nemesis Dreadknights typically get a Greatsword, Incinerator, and personal teleporter.  That setup is 260 points.  Reviews of other weapons are mixed and personal taste.  Some people skimp on the teleporter but people that use it swear by it.

 

Um... Purifiers are pretty awesome, but cannot deep strike and have different psychic powers.  More attacks though.  Really you can't go that wrong with most anything in the book.  If you build an army with synergy and unit roles in mind, we've got the tools to get it done.

[Ravenfeld]

Thanks! Now that is more of what I am looking for.

 

I know my friend was particularly fond of the Purifiers, he wanted a force based around them. Is that a competitive possibility or just wishful thinking? And if you were heading down that road how would you do it?

[number6]

I got into GKs at the very end of 3rd edition with the old Daemonhunters codex. I was immediately drawn into the crazy Inquisition fluff that INP describes so lovingly. The contradictions, the secrecy, all of it.

Also, at the time, I understood the GKs to be, quite literally, sci-fi knights, which immediately appealed to my Noble Sensibilities.

And then there were the models. The metal GKs -- especially the metal GKTs -- still stand up to everything GW puts out today. Back then, they were head and shoulders "superior" (IMHO ) to any other army's aesthetic.

The rest, as they say, is history. While I have ended up playing other armies since then -- especially in 5th edition when even I got tired of how awful the Daemonhunters failed on the tabletop (and how their old rules just were NOT getting Errata'd by GW to match with the rest of 40K) -- the GKs -- especially as envisioned by the Daemonhunters codex -- will always be my first love.

The new codex has made several changes, but IMHO, the army still "feels" -- on the tabletop, at least -- similar to what I "grew up" with. Or, more accurately, can still be played in a similar fashion to what I grew up with, and that is good enough. I just get to add a few new toys into the mix as well. Keeping things fresh. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Not ever unit is awesome.

Units to stay clear of;

Brother Captain (buy a GKGM already...)

Stern

Mordrak (Liability. Want to lose 400 points in a single wound? He's your man!)

Crowe (overpriced tarpit, easily shot to death before doing anything)

Valeria

Brotherhood Champion (1W and Digital Weapons!)

Venerable Dreadnought (just say no to the useless Venerable in 6th edition)

Callidus

Eversor

Culexus

Arco-flagelent (why when you have a DCA for the same cost)

Banisher

Sure, you might get some use out of these (and you need to pay the Crowe tax for a Purifier-wing), but 'good' options, compared to the rest on offer in the 'dex, they ain't.

As subjective as 'good' or 'competitive' is, anyway.

Also, at the time, I understood the GKs to be, quite literally, sci-fi knights, which immediately appealed to my Noble Sensibilities.


And then there were the models. The metal GKs -- especially the metal GKTs -- still stand up to everything GW puts out today. Back then, they were head and shoulders "superior" (IMHO ) to any other army's aesthetic.

Utterly /seconded!

[thade]

It's been like a year, have you tried a Brotherhood Champion yet? His re-rollable saves mathhammer out to let him survive like 96% of the attacks thrown at him in melee; he can lock down an entire unit in melee on his own even if it has a melee monster in it. And if the melee monster manages a hit, there's a pretty good chance that 100 point model takes him off the table too. Bro Champ is some supreme bang for that relatively tiny point cost. He wins my vote still. He also makes for some fun conversion opportunities, but then the entire book does (as INP puts forward).

 

Even if you think a unit/model isn't ideal or even if you think it sucks super big time, it can still be fun to throw one in a list. It depends on the kind of crowd you play with though. If your scene's typical  list features multiple min-maxed units that are virtually identical in wargear options, you'll probably struggle putting Stern in a list. But then again maybe you enjoy uphill battles; personally, I do. Keeps the game fresh and allows me a larger set of challenges than a 'strictly competitive environment' otherwise would.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

It's been like a year, have you tried a Brotherhood Champion yet? His
re-rollable saves mathhammer out to let him survive like 96% of the
attacks thrown at him in melee; he can lock down an entire unit in melee
on his own even if it has a melee monster in it. And if the melee
monster manages a hit, there's a pretty good chance that 100 point model
takes him off the table too.

 

No. There are 'better', and even more fun units to take, than a guy who's best bet is to try to tarpit a unit until they kill him and he HS's something off the table.

 

I just don't find that fun.

 

Especially with the amount Eldrad (or Rune Priests) is used where I play.

 

(it's about 97% if your opponent is strangly not using an AP2 Melee Weapon, 89% if he's relying on his 3++ :P )

 

The Brotherhood Champion is still better than Crowe though. ;)

[thade]

Raising doubts over an 8% difference where a 6-sided die is concerned is...concerning to me. ;) He's a better melee tarpit than even a 5th Ed Venerable Dreadnought, and so you bail him out just like the Dreadnought...bring in the calvary after they handle whatever else required their attention.

 

He factors really well into lists when you want to present your opponent with multiple units where each one vies equally for target priority in  your opponent's eyes. As ever, opponent psychology, general play style, and player motivation are very difficult variables to weigh in the complex function that is "units measured outside of vacuums".

 

Whether you see GML's side of things or mine, what's clear is this: the GK codex is one that evokes strong passions and has a lot of flexibility and variety. It's the best codex ever.

[Gentlemanloser]

3% chance of dying to an 11%!  That's a 266% increase in chance to die! :P  Ah numbers. ;)

 

 

He factors really well into lists when you want to present your opponent
with multiple units where each one vies equally for target priority in
 your opponent's eyes.

 

We actually do this rather well, but not with the Brotherhood Champion.  Consider a list built like;

 

HQ: OMI, TDA, Psy, Skull (83)

HQ: OMI, TDA, Psy (80)

 

Elite: Warrior Accolyte x4, SB x4, Razor + Psybolt (78)

Elite: Warrior Accolyte x4, SB x4, Razor + Psybolt (78)

 

Elite: Purifer x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (180)

Elite: Purifer x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (180)

 

Troop: Strike x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (160)

Troop: Strike x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (160)

Troop: Strike x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (160)

Troop: Strike x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (160)

Troop: Strike x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (160)

Troop: Strike x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (160)

 

Heavy: Purgator x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (180)

Heavy: Purgator x5, Psycannon, Razor + Psybolt (180)

 

Total: 1,999

 

Target Priority?  Well Troops first, but every unit has 5 men, 4 SB and a Psycannon, and all roughtly cost the same (158 to 180).

 

50 walking Marines, 10 TDA+Henchmen, 12 Razors.

 

Pew Pew!

 

;)

[number6]

The Bro Champ is a real champ for me as well.

I don't think this is the topic to discuss the merits/demerits of actual army builds. But I would feel remiss if I didn't point out that your list, Gentlemenloser, suffers from two obvious and hard counters.

1. Necron flyer lists (the most common build). At 2000 pts, you can easily see 6+ scythes (Night and Doom) on the table. You wanna talk "pew pew"? They got it. And it's largely immune to what your list has.

2. CSM with 2 or even 3 helldrakes. Such lists feast on groundpounding units with relish. You need to be able to take them out ASAP.

It's 6e. Building in flyer defense is not optional for all but the most rarefied/specialized of lists.

Back on topic: most units in the codex will have some adherents, and most units can be made useful. As much as I dislike all of the named Inquisitors save Coteaz and all of the assassins not named Vindicare ... it's a big, resilient book. Indulging in these units is unlikely to absolutely break even the most "competitive" of lists.

If you like any of the community-rated "suck" units, take 'em anyway. It's your army.

[Gentlemanloser]

/meh fliers suck. Broke the game.

If you face Heldrakes you can hide all your dudes (bar the TDA Inq's) in their respective Razors and start rolling 6's with the 36 TL S6 Heavy Bolters.

Baleflamer those!

(Also that list should only be taken as an example of "present your opponent with multiple units where each one vies equally for target priority in your opponent's eyes")

As much as I dislike all of the named Inquisitors save Coteaz and all of the assassins not named Vindicare

Awwww. No love for Big K? :(

[number6]

Awwww. No love for Big K?

Well. He IS the coolest. But ... I don't think I have room for him in any of my lists.

I use Mordrak instead!

[Zeratul29]

Idk why you wouldnt love the bro champ, stick him in a raven with a deathcult assassin squad

 

Bro Champ: 100

henchman: 165

DCA x6

Crusader x5

 

put this in a raven and watch your oppenonts cry when they get assaulted by this, they get rerolls to hit plus they get +1 strength, accomplishing the same thing as rad grenades, and the brochamp can tank any other character in the game. whats not to love about this henchman ball of death?

[Ravenfeld]

Okay, moving away from the queries on my friends behalf for a moment.

 

I was considering adding a small grey knight allied contingent to my Imp Guard. I really really love the Vindicare, so that is my driving motivation for doing it. That being said I  would likely take an inquisitor HQ w/ retinue, and possibly a unit of regular troop dudes (I don't even know what they're called, haha!) to go with. I was considering using the marines as "Death watch." Now I understand GK's are pretty beefy and have that whole psyker thing going on, do you think they could work as death watch, or is it just too far fetched? Give me reasons for yay or nay. I would love to make this concept work!

[Gentlemanloser]

Sternguard make better Deathwatch.

 

You could take Coteaz as your Inquisitor and have the Henchmen unit as the required Troop slot.

[Ravenfeld]

Sternguard make better Deathwatch.

 

You could take Coteaz as your Inquisitor and have the Henchmen unit as the required Troop slot.

 

Hrmm, that sounds promising. Not going to lie, I was getting excited about the death watch idea, but the vindicare is the end goal so i'll take what I can get. Thanks Gentleman, you're such a...gentleman. Hehe.

[Ravenfeld]

Committed for my quest for death watch, would Purgation squads work? I only ask because I collect and use plain marines as is, that and I can only have one allied force.. and I want my dang Vindicare! So it would be Inquisitor + Henchmen + Purgation (Death Watch) + Vindicare for my allies. Can you ball park how much that would cost? I like Coteaz, but I don't know if I want to use a special character.. I might just do the standard xenos inquisitor layout.

[Gentlemanloser]

You're welcome

 

/doff's Top Hap in your direction

 

A bare bones Inquisitor with 12 SB Henchment and a Vindicare costs 254 points.

 

You could have a Purgation Squad with 4 Psycannons (all with 'deathwatch' sponsons) for 180.  But you might be better off with 5 Purifiers, with Psybolt Ammo (to represnt Deathwatch special issue ammo), which will set you back 140.  That gives you S5 Storm Bolters, on Fearless 2A Marines.

 

Give them all Halberds (I6) for a total of 160 points.