Protect Thine Master!

[Ravenfeld]

Now I know that Honor Guard were viewed as "meh" in 5th addition, and I know the general consensus is that artificer armour got a tremendous boost in 6th on account of any melee weapon that can beat it will strike last. That being said, the unit is still just a glorified melee beat stick with a steep price tag, or is it?

 

I have always wanted to make an honor guard unit, for me they would come w/ my counts as Kantor but stick with my "Primus" who happens to be a dreadnought. I want to know what fun builds and combinations you guys have used and why you think they are good or bad, or just plain...plain. Let me know what you think!

 

Thanks,

Raven

[Captain Idaho]

Honour Guard are a hard unit to get right, in comparison to Terminaters who are easy, so many players would equate easy as better and hard as rubbish.

Honour Guard excel at killing non-elite units in decisive strikes. They love Orks whereas Assault Terminaters might not enjoy fighting a meagre unit of Ork boyz.

Now, using Honour Guard in 6th edition has greater strategic and tactical application. We have 4 elements to consider:

1) What any attached characters are going to be equipped with.

2) How is the Chapter Champion going to be armed.

3) What way are you going to equip the rest of the squad.

4) What is your unit's main role going to be.

***I'm switching from mobile to PC; allow me to elaborate in a moment***

In depth we have several key factors that you need to consider whilst building a list, and they come simultaneously rather than in any particular order.

Equipping Attached Characters

It's certain you're going to have a Chapter Master so how are you going to equip him? Barring special characters, it's a given for most players to take Articifer Armour since 6th edition came out. This gives you the ability to tank wounds if need be onto your multi-wound model to save other models from dying, but also just makes good common sense depending on variable circumstances that could occur later on.

Some people might consider their Chapter Master with a Storm Shield in the hopes of soaking AP2 attacks on him, particularly from plasma weapons. This can work perfectly for a couple of wounds, but I'd recommend NOT doing it if your Master is down to 1 wound.

Pedro isn't so good at soaking wounds so I wouldn't bother under most circumstances. Calgar does have the capacity to do so, but keeping him alive would be better so don't get carried away.

It's possible to put a second Storm Shield into the unit from a Librarian in Terminator armour or even a Captain or second Master. This does bump up the cost somewhat, but it does provide a boost to survivability.

What weapons you want to use depends on how much damage the Chapter Master wants to cause, what targets you'll be aiming for and what the rest of the unit is equipped with. If you have a power axe and power sword, you'll have a model that can slice and dice through opposing rank and file fairly easily for a reasonable points cost. A Relic Blade allows you to chop through all opposing models at initiative except the odd 2+ save model - a comprimise you have to decide upon.

You've mentioned Pedro so I won't go too much into depth on the subject. If you have Pedro then you have a power fist so have a reasonable attack, but don't expect him to smash through entire units alone. Since he's striking last you could perhaps do with powerful punching power from the rest of the unit as compensation.

The Chapter Champion

This guy needs to be capable of fighting opposing characters, so many people consider giving him a power axe and a Relic blade. This gives great flexibility. Let's also no forget the Champion could really do with the hitting power to carve through opposing infantry too, as in following turns (or if you were crafty with character placement before the assault began) you will need his advantage of having a Captain's stat line where it matters.

Pedro will need him to more than most Chapter Masters, since he only has power armour. As such, if do have the space to avoid challenges with the Chapter Champion, it's best Pedro is able to avoid them too, or else he could be in trouble. If in doubt, ensure the Champion can become engaged so he can take up the Challenge on Pedro's behalf.

The Guardians

Your choice of power weapons is important. If you're in a Land Raider you'll certainly get a charge, which is why I often go power lances. Power swords is the other logical choice. Ideally you want to have weapons that can hurt a power armoured.

I'd steer clear of power axes since you're going to strike last, thus negating the strength of the squad (i.e. hitting with the most amount of quality attacks in the Codex at initiative), and thus you may as well take an Assault Terminator squad.

Power mauls just won't break most enemy units in power armour, but you can still put a large amount of hits on the squad. I'm not really experienced with using masses of them, but I'd imagine power swords might work better.

Mixing a few in the unit is the logical way to do it. One or two power axes might be worthwhile as a "just in case" situation, and maybe even a maul on the Banner Bearer to provide back up for non-power armour killing.

I take 5 in my own squads, as this is quite affordable. Backed up by a Chapter Master with a power axe and sword (I wanted a maul but couldn't get a decent model!) you should be able to put extra attacks at initiative against those horrible power armoured counter charges (exaggeration - they're not a problem really).

Why are we here?

What are you doing with the rest of your list and what is the role of your Honour Guard? If it's a spear head in a Land Raider, go for hard hitting models that can get a decisive charge, since you need to make a hole in the opponent's lines. Admittedly, people often will want their unit to still be in assaults in their opponent's turn, but you have to consider 6th edition increases the likelihood for your opponent to kill some models over the course of the game. You need the capcity to hurt opponent's in a 2nd subsequent charge after taking some losses, so that means having the most decisive strike you can get.

[Giga]

They're garbage. Unless you want them for modelling opportunities/casual games/apocalypse, don't bother. 

[Ravenfeld]

Thanks for the in-depth response Idaho, you're an all-star.

 

Unfortunately I can't really answer what my list is going to be.. because I am aiming for a full Clan Company with two full FoC / Allied FoC (minus full troops, naturally). What this means is that I kind of want the Honor Guard on principle, not necessarily to whip out in the near future. Also, they will be defending my Primus, who isn't Kantor but a Contemptor Dreadnought that counts as Bjorn (using allied SW). So they will be fanned out in-front of him acting as a defensive line / assault deterrent. So with that in mind what would you recommend in terms of gear? Naturally a mixture of Pswords + Axes might be good. Plasma might definitely be a problem though... hrmm. I could do a Storm Raven w/ the Honor Guard inside + The Primus in tow, get them close to combat and engage.

 

Kantor will almost always be podding in with my Sternguard / Ironclads to Alpha Strike as he is my clans "strike commander" and "master of the fleet." So I am not so worried about him as he should spend most of his time cutting stuff down at range.

 

Edit: Giga, you are definitely the devils advocate I've noticed. Well, I am definitely keen on the modelling opportunities, if they are "garbage" then I will likely leave them until I am closer to my full clan company.

[DarkGuard]

They're garbage. Unless you want them for modelling opportunities/casual games/apocalypse, don't bother. 

 

A little strong.

 

Many, including Idaho, have shown that they can be very useful. In 5th they were feared, and we're talking about massively competitive players. You just have to use them right. As Idaho said, they're harder to use properly than Terminators, making the latter the default option. But they're not the only option, and it'd be good to remember that. Used correctly they can be devastating.

 

Sadly, their biggest strength over Terminators has now gone, that of being able to disembark from a stationary Rhino and charge effectively 14" from its hatch. However, I trust Idaho's judgement and his post above, he's likely played them a lot more than me.

[Captain Idaho]

They're only garbage if you run your list to have Tactical Marines with flamers on anti-infantry duties and need something to deal with the scary beasties.

 

Honour Guard take can take on most opponents, plain and simple. They only really need to avoid some big beasties or opposing 2+ save units (or Incubi, but who doesn't) which aren't really that common. And with the gorgeous Concussive Missiles we now get, there is a better chance of killing MCs than ever before without them striking.

 

Orks don't care about Assault Terminators, where as Honour Guard love fighting Orks. And any blob sized squad.

 

It's a matter of what role your principle assault unit is taking on. I enjoy carving through armies with Honour Guard and having a list which does the heavy lifting against 2+ saves opponents, which is in reverse to the usual preference we see with Assault Terminators being used in lists. A matter of taste you could say.

 

Don't let people put you off a unit just because it doesn't fit their playstyle. Not even Giga! ;)

[Ravenfeld]

Well as an Iron Hand player I am trying to avoid large blocks of TDA to begin with. I will be using Termies as sergeants through the use of SW Allies or as bodyguards for my IC's and little else. That means I won't have the hammer that most other vanilla marine armies will have. So I figured the Honor Guard could be a decent substitute for a melee power house. That being said, they are more of a finesse tool than a blunt instrument and I could see them taking some getting used to.

[Giga]

Devil's advocate or not, honor guard have never been a good unit IMHO, not in 5th ed and certainly not now. 

 

@ Ravenfeld

 

I strongly advise you not to run them on foot. They're not going to fare well in this edition of plasma and armor-ignoring templates/blasts.

 

Rather, if you want to run them with a dread, you may consider putting both them and the dread into a stormraven. You won't be able to use Bjorn, but I'm sure a standard venerable or ironclad dread (or some forgeworld variant, if your gaming group allows them) should be good enough to represent your Primus. 

 

If you absolutely must run them on foot, however, you might want to consider including an allied DA libby with power field generator to give them some survivability against real shooting... Or, at the very least, a vanilla libby with the power that gives his unit 5++ saves. 

 

 

 

 

 

On a related note, one of my (far) future projects is making a fancy 10 men honor guard squad with chapter banner, a fully kitted out pfist/lclaw chapter master. I would put this unit + an ironclad into a stormraven, and then take a list with it to a tournament for the lulz, just to see how much stuff my chapter master and his honor guard can murder before I inevitably lose. xD 

 

EDIT: By the way, did anyone notice a chapter master with artificer armor, power fist, and lightning claw costs 5 pts less than a chapter master with terminator armor, fist, and claw? So you basically pay 5 additional points for the ability to deep strike, while losing grenades and the ability to perform sweeping advances? Was Matt Ward drunk when he wrote this crap?!

[W0lfie]

I don't like running them with chapter masters.   The lack of an invulnerable save makes them very, very vulnerable against shooting (lots of people are concerned with their melee survivability boost, but plasma guns and medusas don't care about melee).  Don't get me wrong, they're exceptional once they get in combat.  Even with axes, they all get 1-3 attacks more than other ap2 terminators (depending on chapter banner/kantor), making them effectively terminators with more attacks, at the cost of wounding on 3+ against marines.  They way I have started running them however is with Sevrin Loth, since this is the only way to get a librarian in the unit (a combat monster who knows ALL of any one discipline and has ML3, as well) without buying two HQs for them.  My favourite way of running them has been Sevrin loth giving them either FNP or a 5++ depending on which discipline I use, and have the champ, one guard and Loth with axes, and then two guards with swords and one banner.  415 points including the attached character, can massacre anything in assault (especially with loth there to take challenges; a S8 T7 2++ Eternal Warrior with 8 attacks and ap2 is kind of scary), and well as being able to support nearby troops after the assault is finished, and Loth can give IWND to his land raider while he's in it, too.  I made the decision to throw ap2 weapons on them based on the fact that they ride in a redeemer; anything without 2+ is already going to be soft and squishy when they get there.

[*Furyou Miko]

I don't know much about the specific units being discussed, but I will drop a little knowledge I've picked up with using Battle Conclaves.

 

Death Cult Assassins are S4 I5 with two power weapons, which I believe is similar to your Honour Guard (admittedly with more assault and less shooting).

 

We always run them with an axe and a mace, because we worked out that against power armour, wounding on a 2+ and allowing 3+ saves tends to inflict more casualties than wounding on a 4+ but ignoring 3+ saves... and against everything that isn't a Marine, the mace is just plain better!

[BassWave]

What about lances?

 

Well as an Iron Hand player I am trying to avoid large blocks of TDA to begin with. I will be using Termies as sergeants through the use of SW Allies or as bodyguards for my IC's and little else. That means I won't have the hammer that most other vanilla marine armies will have. So I figured the Honor Guard could be a decent substitute for a melee power house. That being said, they are more of a finesse tool than a blunt instrument and I could see them taking some getting used to.

 

I'm in a similar situation brother. Lately I've been toying with-

 

5 Honor Guard- Axe and Relic Blade (Champion), 2 Swords, 2 lances, Chapter Banner.

 

The lances basically grant furious charge with ap 3. I know that after that the first turn of combat that they won't be as useful against marines, but hopefully the enemy unit had been neutered enough to where the Chapter Master, the champion, and the two swords will be enough to get through the remaining powered armor  enemy.

 

The way I see it, we probably shouldn't bother with axes. We shouldn't be assaulting terminator units to begin with.  I'd only give the champion an axe so he could take care of the occasional 2+ armor character in a unit.

 

Personally, I just don't like Power Mauls. I face way too many marine armies for it to be useful. I don't like giving the opponent the chance of making a save, but that is just me.

[Captain Idaho]

The key to Honour Guard is shooting the credible counter assault elements and ensuring you get the charges you need as you can't withstand the firepower Terminaters might.

 

That means Land Raiders or Stormravens, though I must confess I'm scared of flier related accidents!

 

Given that we absolutely have to have a way to charge, Lances aren't a poor choice in any way. The killing power on the charge is great and you aren't likely to be counter charged by anything unmanageable in return most games.

 

I'm totally with Giga though; if you march forward in front of a Dread you'll waste the unit.

[The Yak]

Some interesting points here folks. Thanks.

 

@ Ravenfeld: Kudos for going with fluff rather than maxing out.

[Ravenfeld]

The key to Honour Guard is shooting the credible counter assault elements and ensuring you get the charges you need as you can't withstand the firepower Terminaters might.

 

That means Land Raiders or Stormravens, though I must confess I'm scared of flier related accidents!

 

Given that we absolutely have to have a way to charge, Lances aren't a poor choice in any way. The killing power on the charge is great and you aren't likely to be counter charged by anything unmanageable in return most games.

 

I'm totally with Giga though; if you march forward in front of a Dread you'll waste the unit.

 

Well I had mentioned a Storm Raven in my post, I wouldn't just literally use them as an expensive speed bump! I could just use Tacticals for that, or even scouts! Haha! My force is primarily based around Alpha Strike from podding units and shooting, the whole concept surrounds the use of energy weapons as almost a religious necessity based on my clans structure. I'd direct you to my IA: Article, but it got destroyed during the upgrade and I haven't had the heart to re-write it yet. As it stands the Honor Guard would be a tool I'd pull out once in awhile, probably for larger games just to make my Primus feel more important OR when I really want to get into someones face and stab them really hard... like this one guy with his 570 points of vanguard veterans, damn death stars.... *grumble*

 

Some interesting points here folks. Thanks.

 

@ Ravenfeld: Kudos for going with fluff rather than maxing out.

 

Thank you Yak, I am one of those people who collect everything around a theme or concept and I am loathe to deviate. I am so bad, in fact, that many of my friends face palm over it. "But Raven" they all say "That unit isn't optimal." To which I respond "The Iron Hands believe in efficiency, I wouldn't use anything that 'isn't optimal' as it isn't a possibility." Yeah, I think I frustrate them sometimes! Haha!