Warrior Lodges in Loyalist Legions

[Legionator]

I didn't read "Death of a Silversmith" but as I can understand from its reviews, warrior lodges were corrupted even before the Heresy. What about loyalist legions? Were there lodges in Loyalist legions? Did these lodges cause any trouble?

[obs0l3te]

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus. 

[Kol Saresk]

The Warrior Lodges were started by the Word Bearers when they spread out to the other Legions. They are the sources of corruption in the Traitors Legions among the Astartes. They were also used to identify which Astartes were more loyal to the Emperor over their Primarchs among the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and the World Eaters, in essence, the victims of Istvaan III.

 

This is shown in the IA articles and the Horus Heresy itself, although the exact nature of the lodges changes from medium to medium. For example, in the IA article, the EC lodges were basically "Pleasure Clubs for Astartes" while in Fulgrim, it was an informal gathering of captains and higher ranking officers.

 

If there were lodges in the Loyalist Legions, then either the Word Bearers realized that Legion was a lost cause or it was stifled by the Primarch and kept from existing.

 

The only three Traitor Legions that I have never heard of having Lodges are the Alpha Legion, the Night Lords and the Word Bearers. It used to be the World Eaters had them but now all mention of them has sort of faded from existence. The only confirmed Warrior Lodges that I know of are the DG(Flight of the Eisenstein), the EC(Fulgrim), the IW(Angel Exterminatus and the SoH(The Triumvirate Beginning).

 

 

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus.

what source?

[Wicced]

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus. 

i'm most interested in the scource of this too...

[Mr Yellow]

 

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus. 

i'm most interested in the scource of this too...

Unfortunately I don't know what the precise name of the book this was in.

I can confirm it is true, I was a black library live on saturday and heard Dan Abnett talking about that during one of the seminars. I think it was one of the novellas or the audio dramas.

Also, and on a horus heresy based theme, they were selling Mark of Calth there so I grabbed a copy :-)

Apparently it is not out until august so I am quite pleased with myself. I imagine some copies will inevitably find their way onto 'that auction site' as I saw a few people with small stacks of them.

Cheers

LM

[Inquisitor Engel]

 

 

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus. 

i'm most interested in the scource of this too...

Unfortunately I don't know what the precise name of the book this was in.

 

In "Brotherhood of the Storm" there's the implication there were lodges within the White Scars. One of the central characters says "I can't say" at the end of the book. There's nothing more than that though... 

 

The Iron Warriors did not have warrior lodges. Their organization was open to all members of the Legion (though in practice only officers had enough free time to attend) and one of the Trident goes so far as to say they sent the Word Bearer's Chaplain packing when he attempted to set up a lodge.

[godking]

 

The Warrior Lodges were started by the Word Bearers when they spread out to the other Legions. They are the sources of corruption in the Traitors Legions among the Astartes. They were also used to identify which Astartes were more loyal to the Emperor over their Primarchs among the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and the World Eaters, in essence, the victims of Istvaan III.

 

This is shown in the IA articles and the Horus Heresy itself, although the exact nature of the lodges changes from medium to medium. For example, in the IA article, the EC lodges were basically "Pleasure Clubs for Astartes" while in Fulgrim, it was an informal gathering of captains and higher ranking officers.

 

If there were lodges in the Loyalist Legions, then either the Word Bearers realized that Legion was a lost cause or it was stifled by the Primarch and kept from existing.

 

The only three Traitor Legions that I have never heard of having Lodges are the Alpha Legion, the Night Lords and the Word Bearers. It used to be the World Eaters had them but now all mention of them has sort of faded from existence. The only confirmed Warrior Lodges that I know of are the DG(Flight of the Eisenstein), the EC(Fulgrim), the IW(Angel Exterminatus and the SoH(The Triumvirate Beginning).

 

 

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus.

what source?

The iron warriors did not have ''lodges'' they did have a lodge like system which predated the horus heresy the Dodekatheon. Erebus was ran off when he tried to supplant it

[malika666]

The White Scars lodges are mentioned in 'Sword of Truth', which is a Garro audiobook. 

 

Didn't the Alpha Legion also had lodges? I remember something being mentioned in 'The First Heretic'.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

 

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus. 

i'm most interested in the scource of this too...

Unfortunately I don't know what the precise name of the book this was in.

 

In "Brotherhood of the Storm" there's the implication there were lodges within the White Scars. One of the central characters says "I can't say" at the end of the book. There's nothing more than that though... 

 

The Iron Warriors did not have warrior lodges. Their organization was open to all members of the Legion (though in practice only officers had enough free time to attend) and one of the Trident goes so far as to say they sent the Word Bearer's Chaplain packing when he attempted to set up a lodge.

The Proof of the Whits Scars membership in the Lodges can be found in Garro: Sword of Truth.

[Kol Saresk]

godking, on 03 Mar 2013 - 14:38, said:

 

 

Kol_Saresk, on 03 Mar 2013 - 09:00, said:

The Warrior Lodges were started by the Word Bearers when they spread out to the other Legions. They are the sources of corruption in the Traitors Legions among the Astartes. They were also used to identify which Astartes were more loyal to the Emperor over their Primarchs among the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and the World Eaters, in essence, the victims of Istvaan III.

 

This is shown in the IA articles and the Horus Heresy itself, although the exact nature of the lodges changes from medium to medium. For example, in the IA article, the EC lodges were basically "Pleasure Clubs for Astartes" while in Fulgrim, it was an informal gathering of captains and higher ranking officers.

 

If there were lodges in the Loyalist Legions, then either the Word Bearers realized that Legion was a lost cause or it was stifled by the Primarch and kept from existing.

 

The only three Traitor Legions that I have never heard of having Lodges are the Alpha Legion, the Night Lords and the Word Bearers. It used to be the World Eaters had them but now all mention of them has sort of faded from existence. The only confirmed Warrior Lodges that I know of are the DG(Flight of the Eisenstein), the EC(Fulgrim), the IW(Angel Exterminatus and the SoH(The Triumvirate Beginning).

obs0l3te, on 03 Mar 2013 - 08:54, said:

Apparently yes..as there were triator White Scars! Who even stated they would kill the Khan if he didnt side with Horus.

what source?

 

The iron warriors did not have ''lodges'' they did have a lodge like system which predated the horus heresy the Dodekatheon. Erebus was ran off when he tried to supplant it

 

It was still a lodge. IIRC, there is a book that says all of the lodges reached back to Terra and that the Word Bearers simply perverted them. In some Legions, the lodges met in secret(the Sons of Horus), some were exclusive(the Emperor's Children) and some were inclusive(the Iron Warriors). I could almost swear the book was Betrayer but alas, I am nowhere near my books and won't be for a while so I cannot confirm this.

[Cerbero666]

As far as I know, there's only proof of lodges in loyalists legions in the case of the White Scars (Brotherhood of the Storm, Garro: Sword Of Truth). I can't imagine the Imperial Fists with some kind of lodge (but It would be awesome, templar style), the Dark Angels had their own kind of secret circles within the legion, in the Space Wolves (as Prospero Burns showed) there's no proof of lodges or secret societies, they had their model of "clans", so that's their "clubs" of warriors. In Deliverance Lost was presented a Word Bearer chaplain with the Raven Guard, maybe triying to create a lodge, but it seems that he hadn't any success at the time. Iron Hands, Salamanders, Blood Angels, Ultramarines...no proof of any kind of lodge in that legions, and no opinion about that. Maybe there were lodges or maybe not, not sure.

 

In the case of the traitor legions with no lodges apparently...The Night Lords had their own criminal traditions from Nostramo, more like bands, they probably would had crucified any Word Bearer stupid enough to suggest them to form a lodge. The Alpha Legion is a lodge by itself, Alpharius and Omegon wouldn't had allowed a secret group within their ranks, something they couldn't totally control? I don't think so. Word Beares, they were the drivers of the lodges, they created many of them and used that lodges already established, so they were familiar with them, so maybe in their own legion existed some lodges. And I think nobody mentioned the Thousand Sons, again a legion with its own kind of brotherhoods and secret circles, a lodge would had no use for them. 

[Kol Saresk]

IIRC, Deliverance Lost said that Word Bearer was one of many spread throughout the Legions to enforce the Edict of Nikea. Yet he's the only one we see so my guess would be either many of those met resistance or conveniently died in battle.

 

The Thousand Sons had a "lodge"(it was more like a coven) in which the senior captains and Magnus would gather. It was very similar to the EC but we only see it once. But if the enforcement of the Edict was what allowed the Word Bearers to have the reach to pervert the Lodges, then it is possible that the XVII never had a chance to pervert it as the KSons went into seclusion on Prospero.

[Wade Garrett]

"Horus Rising" says the Warrior Lodges were a custom the Luna Wolves took from the tribal warriors on Davin who impressed them while fighting alongside the Imperials as auxiliaries, they were well established in the Legion long before Erebus showed up.

[Kol Saresk]

Ah. Wait, wasn't Davin a world conquered by the Sons and the Word Bearers while also being one of the "Old Faith" worlds that Kor Phaeron identified?

 

But this is all getting confusing. I think the best we can say is that the Legions with Warrior Lodges either had them from Terra or picked them up along the way and in some Legions, the Word Bearers used them as a Recruitment Center. That sound about right?

[Wade Garrett]

Hmmm...checking The First Heretic, you seem to be correct.

 

I have no problems acceding to the rest of what you posted.

[Arachnid99]

While the status of warrior lodges in most of the loyalist Legions is obviously unclear at this point I really hope a few of them have lodges. It would add an interesting dynamic and make the decision about what side the Legions ended up on realistically up in the air right until the last minute rather than cut and dried long before Davin.

While it's difficult to imagine an Imperial Fist or Ultramarines lodge and the Dark Angels are almost certainly going to be in a similar category to the Iron Warriors in all ready having a lodge like organisation prior to Erebus coming along I could easily see a Blood Angels or Raven Guard lodge.

[Conn Eremon]

From what I've gathered throughout the series, the Legion's have all had some sort of informal organization within themselves reminiscent of the Lodges since leaving Terra. There are exceptions and variations, but these informal bodies were pretty common. Some, like the Emperor's Children, restricted the informality of it. Like the EC's went through some radical shifts during their period of incredibly low numbers. Some, like the Imperial Fists considering Dorn and Sigismund's bit in the Crimson Fist and likely the Ultramarines, were probably abolished. Some, like the Space Wolves and Word Bearers, probably incorporated it so much into their system that it was indistinguishable from the rest of the bodies. Each of the Space Wolf Great Companies operates like a Lodge and it's possible that it's because of that influence. Two Legions had their informal bodies irrevocably changed upon encountering a new form of it, the Luna Wolves and the Word Bearers, on Davin. The Luna Wolves adapted their informal body to imitate that of the Davinite Lodges, while later the Word Bearers would try to supplant the already present informal bodies with their own brand of corruptible Lodges.

[OttoVonAwesome]

Betrayal mentions other legions having warrior lodges but only the 4 involved in Isvaan III used them to seperate the loyalists from the traitors. It mentioned them having apeal as they allowed marines of other ranks and legion to fraternize on a somewhat equal or different level the general idea being that new ideas could be spread around without formality and rank stifling innovation or causing internal strife but the functionality rituals and system of rank varied from lodge to lodge. It is also mentioned that the idea was started on Davin.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

In th First Heretic, one of the world bearer chaplains returns from the Iron warriors version of a lodge and explains its different to their own version.

 

There is lots of abiguity in the exact formation of lodges. The mornvil explain to lokan about how they have been their since the astartes left terra. But i guess that the nature of the lodges evolve over time.

 

On a more practical note the lodges were key plot hooks in establishing the ongoing coruption in the istaanvan legions. If the legions are loyal and stay loyal there is no need for that plot hook to be used so we will see less info on the loyalist lodges. Its would be good to see the flip side in the loyal legions tho as i'm sure there must have been a few who agreed with horus and they would have needed purging.

 

The Lion mentions that while some traitor legions still have loyalists some of the loyal legions might have traitors (the Primarchs)