Dark Angels, Offensive or Defensive?

[Slavik]

How do you play Dark Angels?

  I classify lists into 3 basic types:  Offensive, Defensive, and Mixed.  Below is a general description of each:

 

OFFENSIVE:  You take the fight to them.  You use terminators, bikes, rhinos, assult marines, drop pods and LRs to get to your opponent as fast as possible.  Sometimes, you even put your objectives in their deployment area.

Advantages: You choose where you attack.  They must react to your attack.

Disadvantages: They have home field advantage and often get the first shot. They are shooting stationary and you are trying to move and shoot.  Often, they will be in better position to assault you (drop pods, deep strike, rhinos...).  If you assault, they may be in cover which causes you to assault at I1.  Also, objectives can be a problem.  Do you put them in the back and risk not being able to get back to them? Or do you place them in your opponent's deployment zone and start him out ahead?

 

DEFENSIVE: Let them come to you. You use the ADL, the bastion, whirlwinds, predators, and dev squads mixed in with the BoD and tact marines to repulse any attacks.  You setup your objectives in the safety of your squads.

Advantages: (The opposite of offensive) You attack first, have the high ground, and are stationary.

Disadvantages: You're reacting to his moves. He can attack in a way that prevents some of your units from having shots.  You won't get line breaker.

 

MIXED: You do a little of both. You have an element that harasses your opponent and an element that defends your objectives.

Advantages: You can put pressure on your enemy while still holding your objectives.  Your long range defense can take out key units for your offense.

Disadvantage: Your forces are split.  Your opponent can focus on one element and overwhelm it with all their points.

 

I understand how you play is situational.  Deployment type, mission, and opponent all determine how you play. If your opponent is playing IG with a bunch of artillary and high value objectives, you'll probably have to go to him.  If your opponent is playing Tyranid or Blood Angels, you can probably castle up and let him come to you.

 

Generally, how do you design your list? (I'm not asking for lists, just general theory for how your list works.) What works well? What are your weaknesses?

[Slavik]

My current tournament list is mixed.  My offensive element consists of Belial and 1-2 ten man CC terminator squads.  They land as close to the enemy as possible and kill.  They are extremely resillent.  My defensive element consists of an ADL, BoD, at least 2 tact squads, and a bunch of heavy weapons/tanks.  I am able to hold at least 2 objectives, and provide long range support for Belial's squad. The point split is 40-60 in favor of defense.

 

Despite the point advantage, my defensive unit dies more often than my offensive unit.  My difficulty is designing a defensive unit that can withstand my opponent's full onslaught.

[facmanpob]

I think a lot of people find the DA pretty offensive ;)

 

But, in short:

 

I am spectacularly defensive with Greenwing, and use long range armour quite a lot (just try telling me I can't use a Rifleman Dread and Lascannon Dread, 2 Typhoons, a Whirlwind and a Lasback all covered by a Libby/Techmarine with a PFG!);

I am spectacularly offensive with Ravenwing, and see the red mist as soon as my bikes hit the table;

I am spectacularly clueless with Deathwing, which is why I seldom comment on them in the tactical threads! ;)

[dominiquekee]

I'm currently building my army of the Unforgiven and I seem to leaning towards an Offensive-Balanced approach.

 

I love the Deathwing Assault (which has come in handy more than once). Essentially these guys take the fight to the enemy.

 

I utilize strong LR support, which can be more devastating that many think.

 

I use the Ravenwing for additional firepower, to support the D/W sometimes, but mostly to distract opponents for a turn or 2 while the D/W do what they're bred to do.

 

My obvious problem here is OBJECTIVES. I tend to forget that this is an objectives game, not a free for all kill-fest (depending on mission of course!)

[march10k]

LOL@ facman

 

Anyway....offensive=assaulty, defensive=shooty.  It really is as simple as that.  Sure, you can cite SoB as a "short-ranged shooty army," but there's a reason they're not so popular.  Shooty=defensive...and an assaulty army would love for you to wait until he's in charge range before you start defending!

[GlauG]

I used to run a very flexible Deathwing-Ravenwing combo with the old 'dex, with the new one I tend to fall to one extreme with a concession to the other... For example my shooty SoD Tactical list is backed up by a squad of Black knights or DW Knights to go harass and distract certain enemy elements. Unfortunately DA don't work as well as SoB as an aggressively short-ranged shooty army, especially compared to castling up with a Sacred Standard.

[elphilo]

I run my Deathwing as offensive. I love to shove them in my opponents face and say deal with it

It's super fun to DWA 15ish Terminators turn 1 in front of an enemy line and look at your opponents face.

[Brother Immolator]

Either defense or mix. Its rarely that I have anyone breaking my lines if I decide to play on the defense and that means that I will loose the game. On my mixed lists I usually use long range guns and time it with a ravenwing squad outflanking and either dropping terminators or more recently drop pod vets/command squad on the backfield of the enemy,  hammer and anvil style.

[cypherkk]

I'm currently running a mixed wing, till I  get enough models to do a pure raven wing or any other varients. 

 

Samael in a land speeder, librarian on bike with powerfield with a couple bike squads supported by land speeders including the plasma destroyer.  2 squads of raven-knights and some deathwing support. 

 

I'm still experimenting but it worked well today, even though we played ruins, my opponent brought 3 techmarines, with thunderfires and got the ruins strategic warlord trait, giving most of his units 2+ cover.    I used the bikes to get into range for deepstriking termies and speeders and outflanked with the raven-knights.  The librarian was defensive attaching to various bike squads to give 4++ then  joining other squads if they got whittled down. Meanwhile reduced squads sought LOS blocking terrain to hold till grabbing objectives.   

 

Most of the damage came from (all)speeders and termies with the RK finishing off squads  Though I'd say a lot of his army was left at the end, I was able to grab First kill, Linbreaker and hold or contest all three objectives (none were in my DZ so he didn't go for line breaker which I'm thinking is a pretty good strategy).  What didn't go well was the RK. The grenade lauchers scattered way  off targets every time. What went right: Samael was a great fire  magnent and didn't even take a damage point.  Librarian was great both defensively (with proper positioning) and offensively (with psychic powers). Teleport homers for deepstriking units.  I didn't really get to see what the Plasma speeder could do as most of his models had 2-3++ saves.  But the alpha strike of the plasma and assault cannon seems like in most situations will work wonders.... I need more speeders (read anti-armor).

 

That's only  one game with that set up though.  I also did a greenwing with a belial term squad and librarian which worked ok, but my lack of games with 6th was showing an I made many tactical errors.  I lost but it was close against an opponent I thought would whipe me off the table.  So I think DA is working best with a solid mix of offensive and defensive units.  Allowing your opponent to target your strongest units while picking apart thier forces.

[march10k]

I run my Deathwing as offensive. I love to shove them in my opponents face and say deal with it

It's super fun to DWA 15ish Terminators turn 1 in front of an enemy line and look at your opponents face.

That's nice...but try this....let him go first, so he has to deploy first. Deploy two crusaders where they're at least risk of melta fire. Drive those crusaders flat out on turn one (6" across the centerline in a normal game. On turn two, having given the enemy two turns of nothing but a pair of venerable land raiders to shoot at, DWA two shooty terminator squads (no scatter, belial is in one of the crusaders!) and unload with four hurricane bolters, four twinlinked assault cannons, and eight twinlinked stormbolters, before belial, five assaulty terminators, and eight knights storm out of the cruaders and charge the tattered remnants of the enemy army. Presto, a full 1850 points in one of his flanks, inside his deployment zone, on turn two...and unless he has some magic way to alpha strike not one, but two venerable land raiders, there aint :cuss he can do to stop you! That seems a hell of a lot smarter than letting him torrent your termies with flashlight fire on the bottom of turn one!

[Slavik]

A couple people mentioned Dreadnaughts with either TLLC or TLAC. Why dreads over predators or vindicators?  Even with a AC and 2 LCs, a predator is cheaper than a TLAC dreadnaught.

[Brother Captain Lucian]

A couple people mentioned Dreadnaughts with either TLLC or TLAC. Why dreads over predators or vindicators?  Even with a AC and 2 LCs, a predator is cheaper than a TLAC dreadnaught.

 

For me its easy - a dread looks way cooler.

[march10k]

A couple people mentioned Dreadnaughts with either TLLC or TLAC. Why dreads over predators or vindicators?  Even with a AC and 2 LCs, a predator is cheaper than a TLAC dreadnaught.

 

Good question!  All else being equal, of course I'd take the pred.  But all is not always equal...there's a lot of competition for heavy support slots...a crusader for your deathwing knights...a vindie to blast a hole in the enemy line...did you know that a full squad of lascannon devastators is now about 50 points cheaper?  And the WW costs about a terminator and a half?  If you manage to find yourself with an open heavy slot, by all means, take the predator!  As for me...well, I run with no heavies in my DW list (four squads, belial, and two dedicated transports), and two (lascannon devs and a WW) in my green list.  I run neither a dreddie nor a pred, in spite of owning both...but that's just me!

[Dark_Master]

 

 

A couple people mentioned Dreadnaughts with either TLLC or TLAC. Why dreads over predators or vindicators? Even with a AC and 2 LCs, a predator is cheaper than a TLAC dreadnaught.

For me its easy - a dread looks way cooler.

This, rule of cool!

 

Plus Mortis TLLC & TLAC have skyfire/ interceptor

 

DM

[elphilo]

I run my Deathwing as offensive. I love to shove them in my opponents face and say deal with it

It's super fun to DWA 15ish Terminators turn 1 in front of an enemy line and look at your opponents face.

That's nice...but try this....let him go first, so he has to deploy first. Deploy two crusaders where they're at least risk of melta fire. Drive those crusaders flat out on turn one (6" across the centerline in a normal game. On turn two, having given the enemy two turns of nothing but a pair of venerable land raiders to shoot at, DWA two shooty terminator squads (no scatter, belial is in one of the crusaders!) and unload with four hurricane bolters, four twinlinked assault cannons, and eight twinlinked stormbolters, before belial, five assaulty terminators, and eight knights storm out of the cruaders and charge the tattered remnants of the enemy army. Presto, a full 1850 points in one of his flanks, inside his deployment zone, on turn two...and unless he has some magic way to alpha strike not one, but two venerable land raiders, there aint :cuss he can do to stop you! That seems a hell of a lot smarter than letting him torrent your termies with flashlight fire on the bottom of turn one!

Yeah when I do this I don't go first, I always go second. I'm going to have to try this one day. The problem I have is lately when I want to try to run crusaders I always end up only having the minimum amount of troops. And in an objective heavy game that doesn't sit right with me

[Slavik]

Where can I get the rules for Mortis Dread? I can always use some more Skyfire/Intercepter. Especially a TLAC/TLLC.

[Onisuzume]

A couple people mentioned Dreadnaughts with either TLLC or TLAC. Why dreads over predators or vindicators?  Even with a AC and 2 LCs, a predator is cheaper than a TLAC dreadnaught.

Probably for the Skyfire&Interceptor when stationary.

Where can I get the rules for Mortis Dread? I can always use some more Skyfire/Intercepter. Especially a TLAC/TLLC.

Imperial Armour: Volume 2 - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition.

One of the apoc books for the Contemptor version.

 

Also, Shooty DW anyone?

Plock some 30-odd terminators on the table at 1.5k points (or was it reduced to 25-odd?).

[Tiger9gamer]

Where can I get the rules for Mortis Dread? I can always use some more Skyfire/Intercepter. Especially a TLAC/TLLC.

 

Oni posted for the contemptor, but there is the regular chassie mortis that has a free pdf on the FW website.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Smupdate.pdf

 

I used a TLAC dread the last few games and I'm addicted :D he even killed a Codex daemon prince in one shooting attack (full wounds and everything!)

[Brother Immolator]

Where can I get the rules for Mortis Dread? I can always use some more Skyfire/Intercepter. Especially a TLAC/TLLC.

Oni posted for the contemptor, but there is the regular chassie mortis that has a free pdf on the FW website.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Smupdate.pdf

I used a TLAC dread the last few games and I'm addicted he even killed a Codex daemon prince in one shooting attack (full wounds and everything!)

I knew it that the UM were heretics :D

[Tiger9gamer]

UM heretics? :?

[Slavik]

Where can I get the rules for Mortis Dread? I can always use some more Skyfire/Intercepter. Especially a TLAC/TLLC.

Oni posted for the contemptor, but there is the regular chassie mortis that has a free pdf on the FW website.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Smupdate.pdf

I used a TLAC dread the last few games and I'm addicted he even killed a Codex daemon prince in one shooting attack (full wounds and everything!)

I looked at the PDF. It didn't mention Skyfire or Inteceptor. I do like those builds. Can I just use those papers or do I need the actual book to use the mortis dread?

[Tiger9gamer]

oh fudge! one moment, it's in a seperate pdf...

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf under space marine vehicles. has a mortis update

[Dark_Master]

I looked at the PDF. It didn't mention Skyfire or Inteceptor. I do like those builds. Can I just use those papers or do I need the actual book to use the mortis dread?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

 

6th edition forgeworld updates here. I think the reason the updates are hard too find as the two PDFs let you use the unit with having to buy the book.

 

DM

 

DOH Ninja'd!!

[Onisuzume]

I looked at the PDF. It didn't mention Skyfire or Inteceptor. I do like those builds. Can I just use those papers or do I need the actual book to use the mortis dread?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

6th edition forgeworld updates here. I think the reason the updates are hard too find as the two PDFs let you use the unit with having to buy the book.

DM

DOH Ninja'd!!

Hm... I guess there might've been a reason why I didn't link to it.

[march10k]

I run my Deathwing as offensive. I love to shove them in my opponents face and say deal with it

It's super fun to DWA 15ish Terminators turn 1 in front of an enemy line and look at your opponents face.

That's nice...but try this....let him go first, so he has to deploy first. Deploy two crusaders where they're at least risk of melta fire. Drive those crusaders flat out on turn one (6" across the centerline in a normal game. On turn two, having given the enemy two turns of nothing but a pair of venerable land raiders to shoot at, DWA two shooty terminator squads (no scatter, belial is in one of the crusaders!) and unload with four hurricane bolters, four twinlinked assault cannons, and eight twinlinked stormbolters, before belial, five assaulty terminators, and eight knights storm out of the cruaders and charge the tattered remnants of the enemy army. Presto, a full 1850 points in one of his flanks, inside his deployment zone, on turn two...and unless he has some magic way to alpha strike not one, but two venerable land raiders, there aint :cuss he can do to stop you! That seems a hell of a lot smarter than letting him torrent your termies with flashlight fire on the bottom of turn one!

Yeah when I do this I don't go first, I always go second. I'm going to have to try this one day. The problem I have is lately when I want to try to run crusaders I always end up only having the minimum amount of troops. And in an objective heavy game that doesn't sit right with me

Well...my version gives you three...lol, it's still a problem. The solution is to put the objectives on the enemy's side of the board, as close together as possible. And his dead units'll claim no objectives! And you'll be scoring the linebreaker with ease, probably first blood, and with that much power in so few models, cutting your way through to the enemy warlord so belial can challenge him for TWO VP should be easy, too. If you get first blood and belial caps the enemy warlord and survives, you can lose by one OBJ and still tie in the crusade mission. You're going to wreck face in purge the alien, no question. In big guns and the scouring, you aren't risking any VP lost for the deaths of heavy support or fast attack units, but your scoring unit disadvantage is going to be steeper. In the emperor's will, you just place your OBJ as close as possible (obviously on the centerline) to the enemy one, then your two squads of shooters, when they drop, can fall back to the friendly OBJ without losing the ability to dakka the enemy, since their shooting will reach the far board edge from the centerline), so you're not running all over the place, only having two OBJs obviously helps you...and you'll win this "always ends in a draw" scenario more often than you'd think.