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  1. I would really like to hear about peoples experiences with this stratagem against 6 and up toughness units. Can it turn blobs of Reaper Warriors and Guass Tomb blades into viable anti vehicle tools? Or it inferior to Relentless onslaught? It seems especially tasty when used by Mephrit as the added AP adds value to wounds.
  2. Just a disclaimer before I pose the question: I am a Dark Angel player with little experience how they play in 9th. The fact that the faction is so broken at the moment is the fact I don't play them. This could probably be a question posted in the Dark Angel forum, but this is more from the perspective of the Custodes. See above question. How would you go about designing a list to counter them? I got two lists where I'm running hurricane bolters on the bikes, lastrum storm bolters on the aquillon, a 5m allarus squad, etc etc. So quantity over quality. The other list is a full on high AP, high Damage list (so meltas, dreadspears, adrathic destructors). Which list would have the best chance of success? The other side of the equation is this: How would you play the mission if you were playing against a Dark Angel in a tournament? Would you charge them? Play the objective sorely? What secondaries would you choose. I'm legitimately stumped on what to do. Context: In my meta (which is competitive), there is a Dark Angel friend who plays a full Deathwing army. Custodes from my experience/understanding counter marines pretty well - I had nothing but success countering Blood Angels, Ultramarines, and the Chaos Space Marines with something close to a 80% winrate. But I seem to run into problems with Dark Angels and their bonkers transhuman rule. Most of my lists (provided below), run Aquillon with adrathic destructors, Achillus Dreadnoughts, Vertus Praetors. So things that have a lot of AP and D attached to them as a general rule. However when I tried that list against the Dark Angel player and in the tournament, I barely killed two models per turn, with something close to 40 attacks from the allarus, Achillus, and the shield captain. Which leaves me with the other 20 or so Deathwing Terminators to deal with, not that I can do anything about that, because after I attack, I'm dead. List ideas: Quantity > Quality list: Quality > Quantity list: Balanced list
  3. So as were now on codex launch day (wooo), and theres are now several leak vids/reviews of the full codex, , I thought itd be good to have a dedicated thread to discuss what peoples initial thoughts are, as its seemed a little quiet in here recently? There's obviously loads of changes to discuss, but I've tried to keep this generally focused to the models I own, and the stygies army I've been playing the last 3-4 years. I've linked a couple reviews here for those that havent seen these yet Auspex Tactics GMG Review 1. Overall thoughts on the codex/units 2. How has it affected your current army/forgeworld? 3. What would you change in your list/new models to get? 4. If a new admech player...what are your plans? 1. Overall thoughts on the codex/units Could talk for days here so will keep this short (ish). So overall I think the new codex looks great. Lots of options and variety, with a ton of ways to combine different playstyles. I do appreciate us getting quite a major shakeup with how things work, cant wait to get my hands on my copy. I think they've brought a lot of units back into being viable (my infiltrators are very happy), although the one glaring issue for me is ironstrider just being SO good it just straight up outclasses the other anti tank vehicles. I don't own any ironstriders, nor do I plan on getting any (not that keen on the models), but booooooy are my 3 onagers jealous. Annoyingly as a non-mars player, it seems the best way to run my 3 neutron onagers would be as mars, as benevolence really pays off on them (as all three would reroll a hit, wound, and dmg on that low shot neutron. Lucius also seems a very possible alternative to stygies (albeit you'll be dropping in turn 2 rather than taking midfield in deployment). Rad saturated forgeworld also seems pretty nuts if going massed vanguard (ie run 4x 20 squads with 60 S4 -1AP shots each, 10 autowounds on average each salvo.....muahah). 2. How has it affected your current army/forgeworld? I've always played stygies and use the older admech range. So I'm just going to talk about Stygies and models I own here. -1 to hit is still there (albeit less so on vehicles), which is always nice. The changes to the rest are interesting for sure. No longer being able to move units up pregame but instead infitrate 1 core unit is different but still good. Redeploying a further 2 in your own deployment zone is very nice too. But it does change the way my list plays a lot - previously i was using the stygies strat to move a dunerider with priests and some breacher squads forwards...now I can infiltrate one squad of priests (or vanguard/rangers) I'm looking at my 15 infiltrators with a big smile though. The change so that they simply infiltrate during deployment instead (im not sure if this previously changed from their DS and i missed it?), is cool, and actually synergises with stygies, as they can deploy midfield alongside the other core unit you have chosen. I also run 12 breachers and these are now great at 2+ save. A bit less killy as they can no longer be boosted as much but still a great objective holder. Nasty enough in combat to cause headaches if you get too close. 3. What would you change in your list/new models to get? My main change is going to be getting more vanguard. I previously ran 2 kastellans as a shooty distraction carnifex, but don't think they really work well in low numbers like this anymore (4 CC ones however, oooft). The kastellans have got the kick for now in favour of more boots on the ground. Ill also be adding in manipulus and marshal conversions. This is the current list I'm playing around with (I think I can pick up 2 boxes of vanguard and have everything I need to run this, which is nice!):
  4. Continuing the Masters of the Chapter series with possibly the most effective of the bunch, the Master of the Forge. Master of the Forge - Overview A Techmarine is already a great choice for Space Marines, since they are so cheap in points, taking up a mandatory HQ slot whilst also happening to be effective at what they do. Honestly, for 45pts (the cheapest cost one can be fielded) you'll not find better value in the Codex. Try. Go away and take a look. Find it? Nope, didn't think so. We should go over the stock standard options in depth and consider the roles of a Masters of the Forge before we talk about Warlord Traits and Relics, though the over all role may change when you consider these options. A Master of the Forge can have basic equipment with the Servo Arm, which is likely what you'll consider optimum if you fancy a support role for your inexpensive character. If he's fixing vehicles that act as fire support, this is definitely the most cost effective option. After all, why throw investment on a character to have him never use? However, that isn't to say a Servo Harness or power weapon/Relic of some kind is totally wasted on the Master of the Forge, as battles often get close and deadly. The guy is already cheap so why not if you got the points spare and expect Blood Angels or Genestealer Cults getting close? Since he's supporting vehicles, this could be where the Warlord Trait Master of the Machine can be considered an excellent investment. Giving ALL Chapter vehicles within 6" a lovely +1 to hit (both shooting and close combat) will likely see opponents chewing their bottom lip with consternation, especially if one of the vehicles is a Dreadnought with Wisdom of the Ancients. Has your jaw ever dropped when you see just how many shots a Repulsor gets? Or a Land Raider and it's Lascannons? Get obnoxious and support them with a character that gives bonuses to hit as well repairs them a flat 3 a turn! On the flip side of this playstyle would be Warden of the Ancients as Warlord Trait, fully equipped with a Servo Harness and marching up the table alongside some heavy hitting Dreadnoughts. Thanks to the benefits we get from the Tactical Doctrine, Ultramarines armies can select a multitude of different ancient heroes to assail an opponent, all of which can lay down a hail of fire as they get close enough to charge the enemy. Don't forget to repair Dreadnoughts as you go, whilst using Strategum support such as Duty Eternal to elongate the survivability of the Master of the Forge's charges. I consider faster moving Dreadnoughts an ideal choice in this regard, since they can put pressure on an opponent right away. The Contemptor and Redemptor Dreadnoughts are a nice pairing, or better yet a pair of Contemptor Dreadnoughts charging forward under the supportive fire of the Redemptor, since the speed of the former will see them hitting the enemy soon. Special mention goes to the Forge World Dreadnoughts. Relic Contemptor Dreadnoughts are excellent choices to march up the table and assault things alongside a Warden of the Ancients, whilst a Leviathan and Deredeo can blast the enemy to the warp under the guidance of a Master of the Machine. Healing 3 a turn on a Leviathan that is taking half damage is a joy to behold and will make your opponent do that uncomfortable smile and eye twitch we all get sometimes playing 40K. I don't consider it prudent to take more than a single Warlord Trait on him, since it will be a Strategum you cannot use elsewhere whilst costing you another Command point for the pleasure. At that point, if you're putting that much investment into your Techmarine I just have to consider the 10th Company recruiters must have picked up Neophytes from the Iron Hands in the Land Speeder Storm by accident! As you can tell, the wargear you grant your Master of the Forge I consider secondary to the mission of supporting your army appropriately. However, don't forget the Master of the Forge had a BS2+ as well as a 2+ save, so fire that bolter, throw that grenade and remember; he is a Space Marine. Other Warlord Traits are down to preference but I don't recommend any if I'm honest. The Master of the Forge Warlord Traits should be all a character like this requires. The one exception I might consider is using Exemplar of the Chapter to grant him Iron Will, which should keep him alive a little longer if he's moving up the table for a fight. That would mean he is your Warlord, but then in this circumstance I presume you've surrounded him with Dreadnoughts to back up your investment. Other than that, remember a combat character is going to give you more bang for your credits, so only consider this if you've got a very specific playstyle in mind. The Techmarine being cheap is an advantage so consider a cheap Master of the Forge his advantage; stick to support. Relics Starting with the Master of the Forge specific Relics, we have the Endurant Protector. If your Master of the Forge is getting stuck in, working alongside a Dreadnought assault force with Warden of the Ancients, a boost to toughness and a 4+ invulnerable save will go a long way to keep him alive longer. The other Master of the Forge Relic is the Mortis Machina. It's not a bad weapon but really feels wasted on a model with Techmarine stats. If you give it to a model with a Servo Harness, you're wasting 2 attacks, if you charge your Master of the Forge into a Dreadnought you have to remember you only have WS3+ on this model. However, with a spate of hits and a clutch of wounds, you can cause a little extra damage to a vehicle which is nice. If I'm honest I wish I could give this to a Captain since axes are cool and this would provide quite a buff. Ultimately, the 2nd specific Relic isn't quite as hot a choice and neither are particularly useful on a Master of the Forge supporting vehicles with Master of the Machine. Tighter games need to manage points and Command Points well, doubly so in tournaments. Consideration of other Relics must be given and there are a couple that are solid in the hands of any Master of the Forge. First up I consider the Primarch's Wrath to be very well suited to this model. Hitting on a 2+, with Tactical Doctrine in effect, means your top Techmarine can still contribute to the battle whilst fixing vehicles safely behind the main conflict zone. This is an excellent weapon and one more people in Ultramarines circles should consider - damage 2, 4 shots (most of the time) at Strength 5 AP -2... the bargain this weapon provides is unmatched at zero points. The other contender here is Vengeance of Ultramar. Replacing a mere 2pt weapon, this gun will give you a volume of fire that will make people think you've appropriated Tau tech! Personally I'd save this for a Paragon of War Biker Captain simply because 12 shots on that platform is pretty nasty, but you definitely haven't made a mistake if you plum for this upgrade. Remember the Tactical Doctrine helps quite a bit here, so you can put down 8 shots at range and expect some to stick. The Seal of Oath is, as always, a powerful option and since the Master of the Forge is often supporting your fire support units, he will do very well with this Relic. Other options I don't feel make the cut, however. Why take pistols when you can give the aforementioned Relics to a Master of the Forge? If he's getting close enough to use a pistol, he probably needs protection, in which case the Endurant Protector wins out over things like Articifer Armour, The Armour Indomitus and the Tarentian Cloak as a 2+ save still has a 5+ against AP-3. At only 4 wounds, you're better off preventing them than healing them. Likewise, close combat weapons are will be difficult to justify on such a character. Does he need the Teeth of Terra when he's hanging behind vehicles? The Mordant Machina is still a powerful weapon remember and for a model that prefers shooting to close combat, you're just wasting potential here. Similarly a support character like this won't make much use of the Helm of Censure or the Honour Vehement, since his role is to make assist vehicles rather than fight on the front lines. Give such things to other characters if you have to. Summary Ultimately, a Master of the Forge is a solid selection in an Ultramarines list that includes vehicles. Repairing a guaranteed 3 wounds a turn is just about worth the Command Point investment alone, let alone the Warlord Traits he can have. My advice is play cheap where possible and don't chuck Relics or Wargear on him he'll never use and try not to get him killed by counter charging a unit. You're better off backing away, shooting them with his bolter and some supporting units. In a game where force multipliers can make an army of mediocrity roar like lions, the Master of the Forge can be considered one of the best choices available.
  5. This topic is for discussion of the Command Point upgrade for the Apothecary character as seen in the Faith and Fury Supplement; Masters of the Chapter. Chief Apothecary - Overview Although an inexpensive selection, an Apothecary is an ELITES choice which is either easy to include or difficult if you have limited additional HQ choices you wanted to include in your list. For most, a Chief Apothecary can be a great addition to an army. A health warning... it's unlikely your Apothecary will be your Warlord and thus will cost 2 Command Points (CPs) if you want to get the best use out of him as you WILL want him to take a Warlord Trait. 3 if you want his Relic as well as other Relics. That is a lot for an army that isn't a Brigade! More on this in a bit. I'd say, despite being multiple wound models, Primaris basic infantry are not the right choice to accompany an Apothecary. Do you really want to use CPs just to bring back a couple Intercessors? Same goes for a couple Tactical Marines. Where this model shines is support of expensive, elite models and units that are already very survivable. Consider providing Medical Attention to 2 separate units with multiple wounds where possible to raise dead models from each in a single turn, though remember they will have a single 1 remaining at this point. Aggressors will love this guy! Bringing back from the dead a model a turn (fairly likely thanks to Selfless Healer) then healing him is absolutely amazing and Aggressors can really benefit from the Healer's Aegis since they don't have a 2+ save or invulnerable. Remem Centurions also enjoy a Chief Apothecary, though don't need the Healer's Aegis very often since they have a 2+ save anyway. Remember, AP-3 will still leave them a 5+ save. Bringing back one of these big boys above 1 wound will be very effective especially if they're hanging further away from the opponent so took a deal of effort to drop a model in the first place. Our poor old friends Terminators and their variants are now something that can be quite effective alongside a Chief Apothecary. Bringing back from the dead a model a turn will make it difficult for opponents to easily remove them, thus maintaining their offensive capacity for longer as well. Over a period of a few turns a remnant Terminator squad can get back up to combat effectiveness quite easily. Just plan the teleportation of Terminators carefully as if the Chief Apothecary can't reach them he's useless for them. Drop Pods are something to consider but only as a tag along - don't pay the points just for him. This ties in with the last types of units that really benefit from this character, which is highly survivable models. Company and Vanguard Veterans, Terminators especially Cataphractii and Assault Terminators, can all have high invulnerable saves and thus be difficult to remove. An opponent will find it frustrating to kill off 5 Vanguard one turn only for 2 to rise from the dead, pick up their Storm Shields and join their brothers in the fight! 1 wound models with Storm Shields will enjoy a Chief Apothecary most of all I feel, since 2 at a time can be resurrected and thus an opponent will have to factor that into their target priority. Special mention should go to the fact a Chief Apothecary can, with Selfless Healer, give D3 wounds back to 2 different characters or 2D3 back to the same character in a turn. This could be very entertaining and effective with a high wound character already, so Terminators and Gravis characters both spring to mind. A Cataphractii Captain going from 1 wound to 7 in a turn is too funny to miss whilst a Librarian and Lieutenant could both be boosted up in wounds in a single turn. Relics Out of all Relics available, only the Healer's Aegis stands out as a viable choice for him. Offensive weapons like the Teeth of Terra or Acquital are nice and all but really you have already spent 2 CPs on him and do you not need that offensive output on other characters? Same goes for defensive Relics really. The Tarentian Cloak will keep him alive longer, particularly a Primaris Apothecary, bit again, if he's in the fight he's going to die anyway. Especially of left alone. Save that CP/Relic for one of your HQ characters. The exception here is if you are running Aggressors. I can see the point in the Healer's Aegis for these guys. Think carefully about CP usage at this point but if it helps then go for it. I believe it is fairly easy to get models within 1" of him and you don't even need the whole squad to be to benefit the unit (i.e. the first 3 tank the shots). In summary, this upgrade makes a simple Apothecary much more effective a choice yet isn't an auto-include. Have a planned place for him and add him to your army accordingly. Ultimately, this character is strategic. He is expensive in CP usage and you won't find the benefit in every army you play. Use him alongside units that really are elite or tough and he'll amplify their survivability and thus offensive capacity quite well.
  6. Let's take a look at the Stalker tank. In the current state of play, do we think collectively (and individually) it is worth while? I've always liked the look of the thing and the rules seem to finally have been connected with the points cost sufficiently. 6 shots per models that are all Autcannon stats, on a Toughness 8 platform, seems pretty good for 95pts. Having the benefit of a Strategum against models with the Fly keyword is also going to cause problems, especially if the vehicle isn't T8. The major drawback for me in 8th edition was the penalty to hit for shooting at targets that didn't have the fly keyword. Although there are many armies replete with models with fly, when points are tight and your Marine list requires every unit to perform as well as possible in a close game, the penalty to hit came be painful. However, there are some great options for the Stalker to be more utilitarian and thus effective for its investment. All Chapters can make use of the Chapter Master, which is a big investment if you're only using the re-rolls on 2 Stalkers but if said vehicles are benefiting along with something else then it's a no brainer. Other options include Chapter specific benefits or characters too, such as various special characters and Relics like the Seal of Oath. Ultramarines are particularly spoilt for choice here since they get a few Strategums that assist these vehicles as well. Chaplains can give a single Stalker +1 to hit which isn't terrible though I suspect you'd like to use that on a Repulsor, Land Raider, Devastator squad or Hellblasters. Finally we have the Master of the Forge with the Warlord Trait Master of the Machine, that all Chapters can utilise. Granting +1 to hit to both vehicles are once directly compensate when targeting units with the Fly keyword. The major benefit of the Master of the Forge is hanging around with a parking lot of vehicles blasting away won't waste the other potentials of the character, who is cheapest in the army and there to fix vehicles anyway. I intend to trial these vehicles further this year alongside a Master of the Forge and suspect their use will be more substantial than most give credit for.
  7. Since the FAQ dropped I've been hammering out flexible lists (Emperor bless Battlescribe) and trying to come up with answers in competitive play. Now, it's important to mention my preference in competitive play is likely different to that of many people. I'm there to win, but my way. I ensure my list interests me, has theme and is fun for me to play. This usually resulting in slightly less optimised lists since fun to me means varied. I am a good player and if I took the latest netlist like anyone else I reckon I could win tournaments. So with the above being said, I usually aim to win a few games minimum and have some close games against the rest. Even if I'm not going to win, I would like some cinematic moments and my opponent going away with a bloody nose. On that basis, here is what I've worked on at 1750pts, likely to be played at events like Throne of Skulls. I might discuss 2000pts later, for use in other events including ITC events. Let me know what I was thinking with the list: • The firepower comes from the Hunters, Devastators and Deredeo plus a spread throughout the Tacticals. • The list generates a surprising number of Mortal Wounds. 2 Librarians, one of which channelling into the Chief Librarian, both dish out pain including D6 super Smite on an 8 potentially. There are also 2 Heavy Bolters in there for Hellfire Shells and a Missile Launcher for Flakk Missiles, just in case. - The list has a Captain for supporting either the Devastator squad or Sternguard as required. Folk don't often like Relic Pistols but his Sunwrath Pistol is actually very much useful. His mobility is key. - Strategum support is key to this list. I will often use Transhuman Physiology to keep alive my characters and even the new rules for Duty Eternal are still useful. I expect to use Hellfire Shells, Flakk Missile, Masterful Marksmanship, Gravitic Amplification and Skyfire in many games. I also to use Martial Precision against certain opponents to net an automatic Lascannon hit. - The attacking force is the 2 Rhinos with Sternguard and Chapter Champion in one, the Devastator squad in the other and Captain suppoeting. The Contemptor plays distraction and runs forward with this force. - Psychic power is a neat trick on the list. The Chief Librarian has a decent chance at getting off both of his powers thanks to Psychic Mastery and Empyric Channelling. This brings me more Command Points and the capacity to target characters, as well as source for Mortal Wounds and messing with an opponent's movement. - Note I lost the Aiolos Missile Launcher and Ironclad to make room for 2 Hunters. They've performed brilliantly in every game for me, through virtue of Toughness 8 and super accurate Lascannon shots. Over all, I am happy with the list. I don't think it'll win any LVOs anytime soon but I think people will be surprised how effective it is. It can afford to lose Troops and still have board control, whilst having plenty of vehicles to saturate fire selection for an opponent. Crucially it has redundancy in capacity. Take out the Hunters and the Deredeo and I likely will have gotten close enough to hurt you with Rhino squads and Contemptor. Take out the Troops choices and you aren't concentrating on the rest moving forward. Take out the attacking force and the supporting fire will whittle you down. Knights are a danger as always but I think with the Seal of Oath I can deal with one quickly and poor attention into a second. The Chapter Champion is a wild card in that people don't expect him to do much and yet he can be charging turn 3 or even 2 fairly often. Whatever he hits will hurt and he can help deal with a Knight with the character keyword (which they all have). Lists that worry me most are Astra Millitarum tank and artillery divisions that get 1st turn, Tau castles and Ork gun lines with Lootas. *** So let me know what everyone thinks on this. What do you think I should be worried about? How do you propose I deal with the armies I am worried about? Is there anything you like here or dislike?
  8. In this topic we will discuss the various Ultramarines specific Relics available in the Ultramarines Supplement. Note that Special Issue Wargear does have some Ultramarines specific Relics to choose from, but such is the variance available due to Honoured Sergeant as well as the nature of Successor Chapters, I've split the two sections into two separate articles on the matter. I'll open proceedings with a round up of each item and my opinion on the effectiveness of each. This can and likely will be disputed by our esteemed fraternity here but that is good - discussion is to be encouraged! Let us all know what you think and whether there are combinations not mentioned. Without further stalling for time... Relics of Maccragge Sanctic Halo The same old Relic and likely to remain a firm favourite, there are few models this Relic is not worth taking on. (The Cataphractii Captain springs to mind, since a singe deny isn't worth your Relic slot or a CP in my opinion) Primaris Captains might have an extra wound but the lack of a 2+ save, Storm Shield or movement options is quite the drawback. As such they particularly enjoy the benefits of this item. However, it you want a Storm Shield protection but want to keep your snazzy gun as well as beatstick of choice on your Classic Captain, then this Relic is a solid choice for you too. The Soldier's Blade I wanted to like an Ultramarines only sword but this is a hard pass for the majority of models. Worse in every way bar Damage than the Burning Blade (equalling at D2), there are only 2 reasons to take this weapon and they're very specific. The first is the Phobos knife wielder. This is possible but likely you'll be using your Phobos Captain as a sniper and a Lieutenant isn't the most competitive combat monster to use a valuable Relic slot on. The second circumstance is the even more unlikely event you already used the Burning Blade but are desperate for another equivalent. Thing is, you probably could have just forked out 5pts extra to have a Power Fist or Relic Blade at this point. So unfortunately this should be a hard pass. The Standard of Maccragge Inviolate A great Relic is you're planning on using some close combat options. Let's be honest, as an Ultramarines player you're likely not worried about morale so the reason you'll take this Relic is the bonus to attacks. Using choices solely in Codex Space Marines and the Supplement you will need to think carefully about how you are going to get the bearer of this standard (the Standard Bearer, if you will) into position alongside your assault forces. Jump Pack models will leave this one behind and units of Vanguard are the ones you will likely be thinking about most for all the special melee weapons they have available. Of course, there are other options available. A Terminator Ancient is someone who can teleport in just behind the assault force, or alongside Terminators. A big squad of Cataphractii Terminators, for example, will benefit greatly from the attack increase. There is an argument to be made for an Ancient carrying this model with the footslogging core of your list but personally I think Intercessor squads prefer other supporting characters that help all round with their shooting as well as close combat capacity. Still a reasonable choice and 10 Intercessors have 41 attacks alongside this Banner in the 1st round of combat! Transport options will be the key here. Deliver this model up close alongside an assault force and you won't care so much about the lack of a bike or Jump Pack. Special mention goes to the Impulsor which allows a model to move 14", disembark 3", move 6" and likely keep up with any unit you want. Primaris Ancients accompanying Vanguard with Jump Packs are looking to be a likely combination with this Relic. Other interesting opportunities to deliver the model will be Drop Pods, Storm Ravens and even the good old fashioned Rhino, but these methods require a little more planning. Armour of Konor A decent bit of protection for a Terminator clad character. The 4+ Invulnerable save is only really relevant on Librarians and Ancients in Terminator armour since Chaplains and Captains have the same or better. However, all characters, Captains included, will appreciate the ability it comes with - halving wounds caused per attack. This makes a Captain with Storm Shield quite tricky to put down, but really such a Captain will enjoy the Tarentian Cloak even more. Take this armour for a Terminator heavy armour as the next item should be your first pick... Tarentian Cloak This Relic is just superb! It combines the benefits of an Invulnerable save with an apothecary! Consider it on models without invulnerable saves but who already have a 2+ armour save, or models who have plenty of wounds to take advantage of the free wounds return. The reason I suggest not placing it on a model with just a 3+ save and 4 or 5 wounds is because the models die fairly easily. Lieutenants of all stripes, even Primaris ones, don't last long on the frontline with just power armour. Captains have more wounds and built in invulnerable saves so can get away with just 5 wounds. Where this Relic really sings is a Terminator Captain with a 3+ invulnerable, or a Gravis Captain. The former is so well protected it's obnoxious whilst the latter has a massive number of wounds. Consider the juggernaut that is a Cataphractii Captain that has a Relic blade/chainfist, combi weapon of choice and regenerates D3 wounds a turn. This Relic is actually my first pick when it comes to protecting characters. Primaris benefit the most since they all have an extra wound over their fellows so there aren't many picks that won't enjoy the Tarentian Cloak, but remember the role of each model before you give this to a model in your list - you might want something more offensive for your Primaris characters. Especially with super snipers. Put this on your Terminator or Gravis Captain. Vengeance of Ultramar People often dislike a gun for a Relic but this one is actually pretty good. Strength 4 and no AP doesn't scream game breaking but hear me out! This gun re-rolls ALL wounds against anything that isn't a vehicle. Oh and it has 8 shots when rapid firing. For Ultramarines that means, in the Tactical Doctrine, you can move and fire 24" with 8 AP-1 shots that re-roll wounds. Let me say again; re-roll wounds! This will help a model carve through infantry from a distance. Primaris can't use it but really they have fairly good guns already and a selection of Relics in Codex Space Marines to fill any void there anyway. Shame though as this kind of firepower is rare in a Space Marines character, as often it's quality over quantity. Lots of models can use this Relic but hitting on a 2+ is likely the best way to get the most out of it. Techmarines can be quite a thorn in the side of an opponent with just a 2pt weapon whilst he repairs your Redemptor or Contemptor, or Land Raider, for example. A decent pick if you don't need the other options available to Ultramarines more. (we really are spoilt for choice) Helm of Censure An interesting pick if a little superfluous to our requirements as an Ultramarines player. We get many a re-roll after all. However, what this does do is allow an over-charged Combi-plasma to re-roll 1s to hit and wound and crucially against Astartes forces, will wound Toughness 7 models on a 2+! A sniper Primaris could do with this as could anything with a power fist or equivalent. A little skewed against Astartes so this item may see itself relegated to the subs bench or extra Relic. Would you take this over Tarentian Cloak, The Santic Halo or a weapon? Probably not. A spare character with a need to increase its killing potential outside of frequently found re-roll bubbles? Very possible. Treat this choice as such. If you're already using the choice Relic for the army but want to boost some characters then this is a little pick me up to that end. As an example, a Chapter Champion is at his most powerful with the Burning Blade and Imperium's Sword Warlord Trait, but if you've used these elsewhere then you can't go far wrong with this boost to his killing potential.
  9. I've been mulling over this and it looks like one of our "big things". The big knock out punch Strategum that is so important it is once per game. Problem is, I just don't think I can make much use out of it using my combined arms response army. What could we do to get the most out of it, which units benefit most and how to create lists that take advantage of it. The quick answer I feel is "take a lot of bolter troops" but the problem I have with this is such a thing weakens your over all firepower somewhat. Relying on bolters to kill high end targets always ends badly. That said, Centurions, Aggressors and other high rate of fire shots can make the most of this Strategum. We don't want to waste it on say just 5 bolter dudes rapid firing after all! What do folk think about this?
  10. Titans and big ol tanks. How do we kill them reliably? Any Chaos dex is fine. I just want to know what options I can use to fill out my list.
  11. With the release of Arks of Omen and increased flexibility in building army lists using Elites and no Troops if needed, I thought it time we recisted the concept of an all 1st Company Space Marine list. Days gone past this usually worked as an excuse for players to take Terminators and little else, but I think with the amount of other units we can mix into the list we have some flexibility to be fairly competitive in light of the superior Terminator lists of the Dark Angels. So before we go onto that part of the discussion, I suppose we should start with what constitutes a valid 1st Company Ultramarine choice. In my mind, primarily it's as follows from the Codex: Firstborn HQ • Captains of all types (we should concentrate on Terminator Captains for theme, though it's possible he could have brought his choppper along) • Chaplains (again, let's concentrate on Terminators but we have flexibility) • Librarians (again, whack them in Terminator Armour where we can) • Lieutenant ELITES • Apothecary • Ancient in Terminator Armour • Company Champion • Venerable Dreadnought • Relic Terminator squad • Terminator squad • Terminator Assault squad • Sternguard Veterans • Vanguard Veterans • Contemptor Dreadnought • Tyrannic War Veterans • Company Veterans HEAVY SUPPORT • Land Raider • Land Raider Crusader • Land Raider Redeemer DEDICATED TRANSPORT • Rhino • Razorback • Drop Pod HONOURABLE MENTIONS • Honour Guard • Chapter Champion • Chapter Ancient • Chaplain Cassius • Captain Sicarius Note I deliberately missed out the Company Ancient because we have access to a more thematic representative in the Terminator Ancient. Likewise, I missed out the Dreadnought and Ironclad because the Venerable and Contemptor Dreadnoughts exist and are more suited to the theme. The Honourable Mentions are Chapter Command and not strictly speaking 1st Company, but secondment goes hand in hand just like a Librarian so I wouldn't consider them to be out of character or theme. Note Sicarius is now the commander of the Victrix Guard, so can join the 1st Company in much the same way as other characters. Primaris HQ • Primaris Captains (Tacticus armour and NOT Phobos armour! The theme's not 10 Company!) • Primaris Captain in Gravis armour • Primaris Chaplain (he could use the bike) • Primaris Lieutenant • Primaris Librarian ELITES • Bladeguard Ancient • Bladeguard Veterans • Primaris Apothecary • Veteran Intercessor squad • Redemptor Dreadnought HEAVY SUPPORT • Repulsor • Repulsor Executioner DEDICATED TRANSPORT • Impulsor HONOURABLE MENTIONS • Marneus Calgar • Chief Librarian Tigurius • Victrix Guard • Judiciar As with Firstborn, the more thematic choices such as Bladeguard Anciet trumps the ordinary Primaris Ancient, but if you really want to, go there but you should have a decent theme in mind. Hopefully that's nice and easy to read and choose from. Competitively speaking, I think all Primaris 1st Company will be notably weaker than a standard Marine list, as you just can't build enough squads with the rule of three and you are severely limited in choices. Aside from, that build what makes you happy. Oh yeah, plus we can add Guilliman More to follow.
  12. There are varying degrees of experience in the Horus Heresy community but most of all we want to recruit others, so I'm going to start a series of discussions and encourage others to do so that focus on the more mundane questions to the veterans amongst you. The intent behind this is to build a foundation of knowledge for people to draw from and attract others to a friendly and informative guide from fellows from within the community. Starting with the pride of a non-Primarch Legion force and the character and beatstick, let's talk about the Praetor. Questions we can answer - what weapons to give a Praetor, what armour (i.e. what type) and who to run him with? How does this differ from Legion to Legion, or army build to army build, Rites of War included? Please share your thoughts, including your experiences or just your themed preferences if you like. There's room for all sorts here!
  13. Hey guys, I wanted to get some opinions on the 'best' secondary objectives for us. I've been struggling with that part of the game a bit, mostly because I'm so caught up in list building, strategems and all that jazz that I treated them as an afterthought in the past. In general, I'm not a huge fan of the concept in itself and if it were up to me, I would probably drop the whole layer of codex-specific-secondaries from the game tbh. But since they're part of the game, I'll have to get a grip on them, I guess. I have used some of the Space Wolves secondaries in the past, with rather mediocre success. Some of the "Kill-X" objectives seem fun and fluffy, but also situational. I once tried "Oaths..." from the Marine codex, which seemed to provide value a bit more reliably (forgot about moving a unit in the center in each round though, because I'm an idiot). Anyway, what are your recommendations? What is your approach in general? Do you have a set plan for secondaries already in advance, or do you choose depending on mission and or opponent? Thanks in advance, ranulf
  14. Tired of assault phase reactions bothering you? Take a naked centurion! 60 points, cheaper than even the sacrificial despoiler unit and more reliable to get in (he'll always be available since he'll stick to the unit until the end). Just detach him in the movement phase before the charge then ram him in, if he makes it then that enemy can't react anymore! If they overwatch him, same deal. Give him a jump pack for added reliablity and ability to deep strike if you want, nothing will stop his blessed mission of eating a reaction. If they decide to shoot him, that's one whole units shooting that's not going into something important too.
  15. The thing I like about Space Marines is the character creation you can go through. It's where the real customisation lies in our otherwise uniform army. Our character choices, particularly our Warlord choices, affect our army playstyle and build in particular. What sorts of flavour do you like to use with your characters? Who's your Warlord and what's his character? How do you use him? Show us a picture! I'm out the country at the moment so can't take a photo but I will do soon as I get home! **** My army is themed on a Victrix Guard style of Ultramarines, hence why they use a Horus Heresy era style that would be Guilliman approved. MK4 abound, with a few exceptions in the specialist squads (my Vanguard had such great options for heads) and a classic gold and blue colour scheme, my army looks more inspiring than any I had painted before. My army is lead by Captain Aetheleous: Formly of the 5th Company; wielding a plasma pistol and Relic Blade, an ancient power sword of unknown providence. Atheleous is known for being a no-nonsense and fairly humorousless commander among those under his command, though this is perhaps somewhat unfair. Those who get to know him, reserved for only a select individuals, could pick out wry comments many would miss or even assume were serious, such is the subtlety of the expression of his mirth. As befits a Captain of such character, I usually grant Atheleous the Adept of the Codex Warlord trait to simulate his commanding presence. However, I have toyed with the idea of Storm of Fire since it makes sense he would organise a firing line expertly. What do people think of that? I also give him the Sanctic Halo. It's absurdly good and means he's very survivable no matter the modifier he's up against. In fact, against anything with a modifier he's almost as survivable as a Cataphractii Captain (minus the wound). Tactically he rolls up the table in a Rhino along with solid line infantry - either Sternguard or Tactical Marines. Usually the Sternguard. He hits a particular part of the enemy line calculated to rip a hole that can't be easily filled. The way I do this is utilise Vanguard and Cataphractii Terminators (along with another Captain) to provide severe pressure on the opponent so they completely lose the initiative. Taking on the Sternguard isn't always easy in this circumstance.
  16. In this topic I'd like us to discuss our preferred methods for using Sternguard veteran squads in Ultramarines armies. Things to consider: - Unit size - Transportation/delivery methods - role - equipment - army synergy My current build is a fairly simple option - 8 strong, all special issue Bolters and a lightning claw on the Sergeant. This squad goes in a Rhino with a Captain. The unit isn't an isolated attack force, working alongside Cataphractii Terminators and Vanguard. With the Masterful Marksmanship Stratagem they are fairly good at killing stuff, but not to the extent of overkill really. One thing I'm considering is adding special weapons or 2 Heavy flamers. My thoughts on this was to give the unit sharper teeth when jumping out of a Rhino. 2 Heavy flamers are definitely powerful but I toyed with the idea of a pair of melta guns. What do people think about this? The squad is a hit squad so a pair of melta guns could ensure the unit is more decisive against hard targets and characters. However, heavy flamers are still powerful and hard to pass up as it makes the squad dangerous. *** What are you preferences? Someone mentioned once upon a time that Storm Bolters are better and cheaper for Sternguard jumping out of a Rhino. I don't do the maths but I felt AP-2 along with Masterful Marksmanship was quite effective? What else is there regarding this?
  17. This army is the next big thing in competetive games seeing how their gun lines are superb and numerous. How do we best them? I've got theoretical but no practical this edition. Decent terrain is a must against them I feel. For too long an open table has been considered "normal". My initial theoretical are decent numbers (My go to answer) mixed with reasonable fire support and an attack force. I have Cataphractii Terminators and Vanguard who can spear head an attack, along with a Rhino full of Sternguard, which is ideal for most armies but I do worry against Astra Millitarum.
  18. I'm taking my Ultramarines to a tournament in January. My list choice is pretty set because of models available but I wanted to start a discussion on what sort of hurdles Ultramarines will have to overcome to win our games? Major challenges such as gun lines lead by Guilliman is a particular worry for me. Imperial Guard/Astra Millitarum with ALL the tanks could be a problem. Hmmm what else? Dark Angels and Blood Angels are superior to us in most games so I think a balanced list of either is going to be difficult for me but if they specialise their armylist along shooting and close combat respectively I actually fancy my chances. Here's my list: It's struggling points wise to make many changes without losing a crucial attack force and I know the Terminators need their Captain for added punch when I drop the Vanguard and Terminators onto the enemy. The Techmarine was included simply because he was cheap and helped my Dreadnought more than a Chaplain would help the Sternguard and Captain. The Culexus Assassin is amazing and a trump card. He's the reason I had to ditch my lovely Captain in Cataphractii armour. Anyway, you can see that my list has large numbers and a mix between attacking potential and a shooting support base. I have used to it defeat a friend's Grey Knights who is a highly competetive player (as well as other less competetive players). I fancy my chances against most Marines lists. I reckon I can beat Tyranids except maybe their gun line armies. Like I said, it's things like Guilliman protecting a gunline. My attack force will meet a Primarch and probably die when I need it, along with my shooting, to take out the gunline.
  19. Controversial title, I know, but consider it for a moment. What does Calgar bring to the table that Guilliman doesn't? Teleportation really and a discount. Oh and he can get inside a transport. What does he bring that's useful regardless of comparison to Guilliman? Let's look at Calgar: - He has 7 wounds and can't be targeted by most units firepower unless he's the closest model. He also halves all wounds rounding up. This is all adds up to a very tough character who will likely be standing come the end of the game. - Decent shooting attack. - Powerful close combat ability. - Grants 2 additional Command Points. - He can Teleport. - Chapter Master Aura. Now, reviewing his abilities and stats, putting him with a large unit of Terminators is a great choice. He can get stuck into close combat straight away this way and has a unit escort to protect him that is also very tough. All for just 200pts! Personally I find points to be tight whenever I build a list and the 160pts discount over Guilliman whilst maintaining powerful attributes and offensive capabilities means I think Calgar is competing with Guilliman as best choice for Ultramarines armies leader. A budget Guilliman though that under states his amazing potential.
  20. The generic 8th edition thread is a monster now so in the name of logic and organisation, I'm starting a thread to isolate discussion focused on particular aspects of gaming. This one I would like to kick off with a focus on the characters, minus Guilliman, that Ultramarines can make use of. Guilliman is so important he's likely best off in his own topic ;) though of course there will be some cross over here where relevant. Now, one of the things I like about our characters is there is literally an option for each of us and our playstyles. You want a cheap HQ to save points for elsewhere? Take Telion or Chronus. You want a tank heavy army? Chronus can make a Land Raider the equivalent of a Knight Titan! Then we have the leaders of the Chapter. As befitting of our characters, they enhance the models around them as well as kick Xenos and Heretic tail across the galaxy. I'm loving Calgar. His human side really has shone through in Dark Imperium, whilst his Terminator Armour allows him to literally go toe to toe with almost any model in the game (fittingly Guilliman owns him with the Emperor's sword). Half wounds means there isn't a weapon in the game that can do more than 3 wounds to him in a single turn. That means it is impossible for 2 lascannons to kill him! Lastly, I love his Terminator armour because I'm moving to a position where my main attack force are Teleporting Cataphractii Terminators. He can join them to provide amazing killing power and a 7 wound model right in amongst the enemy where the Gauntlets of Ultramar are squishing fools. Anyone else have anything they'd like to share?
  21. An interesting discussion... How do we get the best out of Stratagems when using the Ultramarines? Mentioned in another thread, should we burn through our Stratagems quickly whilst we have the units still alive or save them for later on to for something decisive when both sides have lost a lot of models? I'm thinking it's a matter of using the Stratagems as soon as possible, providing the benefit of doing so is measurably worthwhile. What does this mean? Well, be bold. If you want your Tactical squad jumping out of a Rhino with plasma and Grav Cannon to attack a powerful target then do it while you can soon as you can! Wait too long and the opponent might stop you or blunt the attack. Conversely, save the Command Point if your Sternguard are shooting at stragglers of a unit instead of using Masterful Marksmanship. That's an obvious waste but there will be times when you have similar options. Ask yourself "would I benefit from this Stratagem above and beyond the alternative of not using it?" I want a minimum of 7 Command Points in a 2000pts game, 6 in a 1500pts game. With 7 Command Points, I'll spend them a couple a turn until I have only a couple left then evaluate what I absolutely need to keep the CPs for. I'm not big on the 3 CP Stratagems personally. They are mostly over costed but one exception could be a counter charge with a Terminator squad against something beastly and using Honour the Chapter. Imagine charging into Mortarion with a Terminator squad and Dreadnought. He is unlikely to kill both and if he goes for the Dreadnought then you could hit him with Honour the Chapter. Potentially game winning. Death to the Traitors! looks interesting in a similar manner. I build my list now to use the Stratagems as best I can. It's our strength thanks to Scions of Guilliman, our Warlord Trait and every unit being able to hurt every unit. I make sure I have at least 1 Heavy Bolter so I can use Hellfire Shells. I try to use Sternguard so I can use Masterful Marksmanship. I have strong Tactical squads so I can benefit from Scions of Guilliman. I have Terminators for assault so I can use Death to the Traitors! and Honour the Chapter. Lastly, we have the best Warlord Trait for an army built for Stratagems. Refunds are amazing and will frustrate your opponent. Take Adept of the Codex EVERY TIME people! I'm interested in hearing other peoples musings on the subject. :)
  22. I decided my lists needed more close combat power so I've added Vanguard Veterans to it. My point in creating this thread is to discuss uses and load outs and my peers experiences. I'm thinking Jump Packs are mandatory. The speed is crucial and being able to drop in along with another unit (like Terminators) adds saturation. What sort of wargear do people consider decent? I wanted 3 power axes, Sergeant with twin lightning claws and 3 with Storm Shields and chainswords. The last 3 members I'd get double chainswords for extra oomph. However, the unit isn't overly powerful in assault, particulary against tough targets. Twin lightning claws instead of power axes gives an extra 3 attacks to the unit and rerolling to wound is better than S5 in many cases. Problem is the cost. It mounts up. What do folk consider here? What do you use your Vanguard for? What do you arm them with?
  23. I've been thinking that defeating armies with Mortarion in them will require some quite specific methods, to the extent I considered Frater would want to access that information directly. In this topic we will discuss 2 aspects to the same problem in an aid to winning a game against a Death Guard army - killing Mortarion and beating an army with him in it. I consider killing Mortarion to be quite difficult to do. He's got a monstrous amount of wounds and a nearby sorceror can heal him D3 wounds a turn I believe. Added to Disgustingly Resilient and we have a character that will likely last to the end of the game. So what ideas to players have to kill Mortarion? I'm considering people need help when not using Guilliman or an Imperial Knight. Bracketing him with a Devastator squad for a few turns can drag down his wounds regardless of how tough he is, but it might require some guts to finish him off. He's coming for you! He won't stand there and let you shoot him! Maybe a Terminator squad counter attack would help? Whacking him with power fists is going to hurt but can they survive back? I'm thinking it's Cataphractii and Assault Terminators only who can counter charge him to hold him up. On that note, holding him up whilst we punish his army is the other side of that coin. He costs a lot of points so if he is fighting 5-10 Terminators all game you're still up!
  24. Sons of Corax Unit Discussions +++ CONNECTION ESTABLISHED +++ Sons of Corax! Through the millennia, our duties for the Imperium have not ended. The enemies against the Emperor are numerous. His armies continue to march toward, and be a bulwark against, the unceasing tide which seeks to drown His glorious work. Yet, hidden the shadows we plan and we wait. After we strike, we learn. Before we learn about our enemies, we must first know about ourselves: nosce to ipsum. Yet, we must also fully comprehend the tools of war at our disposal. We can thus know what force to apply in order to destroy. Your experience adds to the Codex Astartes. Victorus aut Mortis! +++ CONNECTION ENDS +++ The Raven Guard are well-known for their post-battle analysis. A performance review, so to speak. From pict-capture, survivor accounts and command node records, information is scrutinized to determine strengths and weaknesses at tactical and strategic levels. Optimization of resources and formations can make the difference between success and failure in the next engagement. This thread will aggregate future discussions with the intent to be placed with the "Resources" thread pinned above. The project will cull from the experienced; novices are encouraged to query and share ideas. Points of view from Successor Chapters are needed as well. Organization of future threads will be based on available sources: Units and Formations as they appear within the current Codex: Space Marine Formations within the Raven Guard section of Angels of Death Units and Formations from other source material such as Kauyon Thread discussion will start shortly after this notification. +++ Shadow Captain Shrike Captain / Chapter Master Librarian Chaplain
  25. Let's talk about Whirlwinds and now to get the best out of them. Whether you play competitive or narrative play I want to know what you think of this unit? I lean towards the Vengeance Launchers not just because of my own army build but because Damage 2 is amazing. What do people think about the Castellen launcher though? I believe if you have a Lieutenant and Techmarine hiding at the back you'll be able to boost killing power and survivability of the artillery. Lastly and somewhat marginally is the Stratagem and Land Speeders... is it any good?
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