BA vs CSM, 2000pts

[Alyssis]

So, im having a game against my little brother on friday. 2000 points.



I usually always loose, and especially against him.. So i thought i'd post my list here, and what he usually fields, so you guys could
help me, change some things you felt would do better!



He ususally fields Abaddon, a sorc, thousand sons, some reguler troops that never do anything, and 3 deffies, or some obliterators
instead of one of them! And he has a brand new heldrake thats gonna have a go this round. He also has terminators, khorne berzerkers, and plague
marines ready if he has the points..



My list, copied from BS.



2000pt Blood Angels

HQ (350pts)

Librarian
Blood Lance, Power Armour, Shield of Sanguinius

Mephiston, Lord of Death

Elites (475pts)
Furioso Dreadnought
Furioso
Blood Talon, Blood Talon with built-in Meltagun

Sanguinary Guard
5x Angelus Boltgun, 5x Glaive Encarmine

Sanguinary Priests
Sanguinary Priest
Power Armour
Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack

Sanguinary Priest
Power Armour
Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack



Troops (420pts)
Assault Squad
9x Assault Marines , Meltagun, Meltagun , Retain Jump Packs
Veteran Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

Assault Squad
9x Assault Marines , Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
Veteran Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

Fast Attack (290pts)
Baal Predator
Heavy Bolters , Twin Linked Assault Cannon

Baal Predator
Heavy Bolters , Twin Linked Assault Cannon



Heavy Support (465pts)

Devestator Squad
4x Devestator Marine , 4x Missile Launcher , Veteran Sergeant

Predator
Autocannon, Lascannon

Stormraven Gunship
Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin Linked Multi Melta



I have never been able to kill his abaddon yet, so i just hope i bring enough to kill him..! Any suggestions on what i should do, and how
i can improve?

[Sanguine Eternal]

Just for future reference, you can't include individual points costs for items on your units, just give the total points cost as a board policy.

Now on to your list vs CSM.  You only have two scoring units in your list.  You might find it difficult to hold objectives in a 2000pt game.

For your Libby HQ, I would also consider using the Divination powers from the BRB.  The primaris power rocks, allowing you re rolls to hit in your shooting phase, overwatch, and assault phase on a single unit within range of your LIbby for that turn.  It's awesome.  He doesn't have a jump pack, where as all of your other troops, and even sang priests have jump packs.  I'd think about taking Mephy out for some more troops, and put a JP on your first Libby.

You certainly have enough firepower with your 2 Baal preds LC pred, devs and SR.  

Your dreds on the other hand, are slow compared to the rest of your fast vehicles and jump packs.  I'm worried that they will get singled out early on.

I've had good success with Sang Guard vs CSM, but don't expect them wipe out his chaos lord and retinue, or anything with a 2+ for that matter...  Stick to assaulting units you know you can beat.  I would probably drop your Sang Guard for another 10 man Assault Squad.

 

In my games vs CSM, I've found the best thing for taking on his lord and retinue is a squad of TH/SS Termies with my Libby with SS and Force Halberd.  3++ all game long.

You have some expensive toys in the list that I might consider swapping out for some more troops.  I would probably drop your Furioso's and put in a 10 man Sternguard with maybe 2 combi melta's or combi plasmas.  They can advance up with your tanks, or find some good cover to take, while dishing out hellfire rounds.  Don't get me wrong, Furioso's are great, but they really need drop pods in larger games.
 

Your HS choices are fine, wouldn't really modify that at all.  

 

So, for me, I would rethink your elite slots, and tinker with your HQ a bit in order to get some more troops in there.  I personally don't spend a lot on HQ, I take either a Termy libby with SS/Force Halberd, or a couple bare bones libby's.  I'd rather have those points spent elsewhere, than having a 250pt character.  Just some ideas.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I disagree, Mephiston is a hard counter against a vast majority of things within the CSM codex. Scroll down to 13th post on this link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266676-ba-post-csm-codex/

 

You need to stop worrying about killing/stopping Abaddon. He can only be one place on the table, and has no transportability (unless he takes the bad-for-its-points Chaos Land Raider, which our melta has no problem popping). Since he has no mobility, simply 'play around him' -- displace from any objective he threatens, and take the other objectives instead. That's playing Blood Angels smarter-not-harder. Why kill when you can avoid? Other armies have higher mobility, others have higher resiliency--- but I would argue Blood Angels are the most Resilient+Mobile simultaneously. Granted, there will be times where there is simply nothing for it, Abaddon's gonna wreck house (The Relic mission comes to mind, etc etc).

 

It is worth mentioning that while Abaddon will kill Mephiston, it will not be an easy kill and usually may take 2-3 (or more) assault phases. Abaddon is WS7 but so is Meph, and then Abaddons' AP2 attack is only Strength 5 so he hits on 4s, wounds on 5s. Granted he Hates so that gives rerolls to-hit for first round of combat. Don't seek out that fight on purpose, but if you need a Fix on Abaddon to allow the game-winning Troops unit to escape, then it may be worth it.

 

Also, I think you need another AC/LC Predator, instead of the Devastators. Those Devs will take a Heldrake baleflamer to the face and that'll be the end of them-- plus they are static whereas everything else in your list is mobile.

 

I would drop the Sanguinary Guard for another 10 Assault Marines, and I would drop the Dreadnought unless you have big plans for him to be assaulting out of the Raven (CSM are ideal opponents to use that tactic on). With the points saved from the dropped Furioso I would take 1) Librarian Jump Pack 2) Power Axes on SangPriests 3) Power Swords on the Sergeants. I think those 3 things are important enough to justify dropping the Dread.

[Alyssis]

Thanks for the replies!

I edited, and dropped the point costs for individual items and stuff! Hope whats left is okay..! I just copied this from the battlescibe thingie, and they had all the points there.. sorry bout that!

You're right on the libby, not having jump packs isnt as ideal as id want to.. Didnt see the room to change stuff.. As for the dev squad, i just wanted to try one, never fielded such a unit before.. wanted to see how it did, but its proberbly not good to have them in the back either...!

 

The furioso and the sanguinary guards was supposed to kill his thousand sons, since my they can wreck my troops before i get there, for the charge.. Was thinking of having mephie, and the dread in the stormraven, hoping that they would destroy whatever they whent for when they get out!

 

Also, i read your post on the topic there.. Great info, thanks!

[Alyssis]

I was thinking a bit, taking in some of the things you said, and i ended up with this list.. Any improvements? Should i go with this instead?
 

HQ

Librarian, with JP
Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
 

Librarian, with JP
Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius

 

Elites  

• Furioso
  Dreadnought

Blood Talon with built-in Meltagun, Blood Talon

Sanguinary Priests  

• Sanguinary Priest
• Power Armour
  Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Power Weapon
   
• Sanguinary Priest  
• Power Armour
  Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Power Weapon  

Troops 
 

• Assault Squad  
  9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
  Veteran Sergeant 
  Chainsword, Infernus Pistol
   
• Assault Squad  
  9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
  Veteran Sergeant  
  Chainsword, Infernus Pistol 
   
• Assault Squad  
  9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
  Veteran Sergeant  
  Chainsword, Infernus Pistol

 

Fast Attack  

• Baal Predator  
  Heavy Bolters, Twin Linked Assault Cannon

• Baal Predator  
  Heavy Bolters, Twin Linked Assault Cannon

Heavy Support  

• Predator
  Autocannon, Lascannon  
   
• Predator
  Autocannon, Lascannon  
   
• Stormraven Gunship
  Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin Linked Multi Melta

 

[Ghostwolfalpha]

Remember that BA get a bonus vs abby because he horus killed sanguinus and abby uses his claw. Vs power armour and tda, I always bring a vindicator to the party.

 

I think one of the librarians should have BRB powers to help keep everything killing effectively.

 

Do you plan to DoA your force or cruise up the board?

 

I like the TL las and TL Multimelta for taking on the dragon and the defilers, although the bloodstrikes should handle the dragon.

 

You need to dance around his slow moving units and use terrain to force his hand where you want it. If you can keep it so your Assault marines can gang up on units or be one round away from jumping in on a cc in progress, the weight of attacks and numbers should carry the day. Fo not let the beserkers assault you, avoid them in cc and shoot them to death.

 

The Dreadnought seems like a liability unless you want him as a bullet magnet.

 

Let us know how the battle goes.

[Sanguine Eternal]

I like this list as well, and second the idea that you should take Divination powers from the rule book on one of your libbys.  The Furioso still seems out of place though, but I guess if you throw him in the storm raven then I guess that works...Or maybe advance him up behind your Baal preds for some cover.  Love all the melta's in the list.  Good luck with the battle.

[Alyssis]

I will check in on the divination powers, maybe use them for at least one of the libbies! And maybe try to find something else instead of the furioso, but i dont know what i can change it for, that will work.

I will make sure to let you know how it all goes, in a somewhat detailed post here tomorror, after the match! Thanks for the good lucks, and for the help!

[Ghostwolfalpha]

Give him hell!

[Freeman82]

A furioso DR is not to forget that you can equip it with a frag cannon.

I know it has AP - but its still S6 and assault 2, rolling 6 to wound = auto kill Besides of that, putting a blood lance and shield of sang on it, will help draw attention away from your HS choices. Best way to field it " depeding on your game plan " as mentioned above, DoA style or board crashing, a Dpod is the best way field it.

I play it this way, and it has even proven to me, worthy against Greyknights terminators :)

Good luck with your battle :)

[Robbie1984]

Looking at your first list, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but am I counting 4 elites choices??? Thats not a legal list is it?

[Alyssis]

Its copied from battlescribe, so blame them for their bad design! But no, if you look closer, it says: Sanguinary Priests, followed by two priests. You can have 1-3 priests as a single elite slot.

[Robbie1984]

OOh I misread the dread part, for some reason I was reading that as 2 dreads and not 1!! My bad, been a long day!!

[Rutzah]

I think Mephiston is a very solid unit against CSM. He counters all of his troops and as CAG said you can out-maneuver Abbadon with his wings and pick your targets.

 

Moreover the Furioso with talons is also very good against chaos, especially if you are gonna embark it in the raven. Round 2 the raven most likely will kill the drake and then its free to go hover mode and deliver your dread. Those 1k sons will have a hard time against it.

 

About your brother now. Is he footslogging everything? If i were you i would ditch one predator and replace a normal libby with Mephiston. I would also give both priests power axes as you dont want them to accept any challenges, and replace all infernus pistols from your assault marines sarges with special weapons, mostly power swords so you can win some challenges, sonsidering that chaos must always challenge. Lastly i also agree with the rest of the guys who said about divination. You can really benefit from rerolls with this kind of army.

[Alyssis]

Well, id say it was my lucky day! I won, 9 VP vs his 2. He did have alot of bad rolls, but still.

And also, we are both very new to playing, so a few rules where played wrong!
 

One of my troops DoAed and took out one of his defilers. The other one was taken out by the Stormraven. My Baal predators did a nice job shooting some plague marines, and reguler troops. The dreadnought did very nice, took out an entire squad of khorne berzerkers, and all of his thousand sons..!

That would not have happened if he didnt miss a good few rolls to hit, as well as penetrate tho, so that was lucky. I avoided abaddon the entire fight, which was golden!

All in all, it was a good game for me, and a crappy one for him! I must say tho, i was very dissapointed in the librarian divination powers.. Maybe it was just my rolls, but i barely got any use for them.. I could have done a whole lot better with the shield, and some cover from his deffies, that cannon hurts..!

Also, i didnt go after his heldrake, so with a single template of his baleflamer, he took out 5 marines, one priest, and a wound from my warlord! I need to be carefull of that drake in the future..!

Thanks for all the inputs, and help fellahs!

[I am Legion]

Good Job buddy, sounds like you did us proud!!

 

And even if you played it wrong a litte....its ok....my friends and I have a saying for when we forget the rules (but like honestly forget), we just say "it's ok to cheat a little" lol

[Ghostwolfalpha]

Well fought brother, the dragon is a pain in the power armour. Send your storm raven after it and it will be slag before long. Battle Cannons suck, stick to cover and stay in cc to avoid that devil gun.

 

Glad to hear you sent those heretics packing.