Sons of Ursolon - A Question for YOU!

[Ravenfeld]

Okay, let me begin by saying I know the Wolves have no official successor chapters save the one that got eaten in the warp. I also know that I expect a great many people to enter this thread spoiling for a fight and to chastise me for my heretical thinking, but I implore you hear me out and read what I have to say.

 

This isn't my official article, more a place to discuss my ideas and get feedback. So lets begin.

 

My concept surrounds the start of the Horus Heresy after the traitor legions revealed their hand. My chapter is descended from a lone space wolf strike cruiser that was ambushed by said legions and crippled in the warp. It was spat out of the warp and crashed landed on a uncharted (but inhabited) feral world. The survivors of the crash salvaged the remnants of their ship, its armory, and its supplies and set up a fortified position. Fortunately they had an apothecary (or several) on board and equipment to preserve gene-seed (as the whole idea falls apart if that doesn't exist).

 

They create a stronghold, mingle with the human tribes, and fight with the tribal Orks that co-exist on the world. Lacking the numbers and firepower to eradicate the xenos completely, they buckle down to fight a long term defensive battle. Generations pass and gradually the human tribes mingle with the survivors, and new recruits are drawn from these people. The teachings of Russ and the Emperor are maintained as best they can be, but time erodes all things. Eventually the small number of space marines that survived the crash pass on their gene-seed and teaching to the next generation, their gear is maintained, but ammo becomes more scarce. Close combat becomes the paramount form of fighting as bullets become more precious.

 

The clans begin to influence the personality of the Astartes, shifting them from Viking to Scottsmen over time. The bear is adopted as the symbol to reflect on the monstrous bears found on this world. Bear riding and taming becomes a personal challenge, not unlike the hunting of the Fenrisian white wolf... bear wrestling instead of killing, I like the idea.

 

Thousands of years after the heresy the world is rediscovered, the Astartes only know of the imperium through legend, many are awestruck, but all swear fealty to the cause. The Orks are finally purged from the world and the Sons of Ursolon are born.

 

This is a rough summary but you get the idea. Now I don't even know if I want to claim them as a full on chapter in their own right, or simply a sub-company of the Space Wolves, either way there is unique challenges.

 

Yet IF they had managed to maintain their geneseed (no doubt a ritual no one understands anymore, but is still revered as a necessity for survival) and if their armor and equipment could be maintained to a functional standard (not pretty, but functional) could this concept work?

 

Again, I have no doubt you lads & ladies will have a few bones to pick, so bring it on!

Thanks for reading,

Raven

[Brother Argent]

The main problem I see here is that the reason the Space Wolves have no successors and the same reason the Wolf Brothers were destroyed is their gene-seed reacts badly to anyone not from Fenris.  At least that is what the old fluff used to say.  Not sure how it is with the new stuff but it used to be that the Canis Helix was too volatile and caused rampant mutation in any people not drawn from the Space Wolves home world.   Of course not sure how that worked with the Pre-Russ Legion.  It also doesn't stop you from doing the same idea, just with a different Legion.  Heck, under the circumstances you have gone with I imagine any force would become more primitive and fierce to survive.

[Ravenfeld]

The main problem I see here is that the reason the Space Wolves have no successors and the same reason the Wolf Brothers were destroyed is their gene-seed reacts badly to anyone not from Fenris.  At least that is what the old fluff used to say.  Not sure how it is with the new stuff but it used to be that the Canis Helix was too volatile and caused rampant mutation in any people not drawn from the Space Wolves home world.   Of course not sure how that worked with the Pre-Russ Legion.  It also doesn't stop you from doing the same idea, just with a different Legion.  Heck, under the circumstances you have gone with I imagine any force would become more primitive and fierce to survive.

 

Thats a fair point, and mutation would definitely be a problem. I suppose I could just use any legion as the pregenitor and just use the Space Wolves Dex as a representation. It isn't a bad compromise if it comes to that, but i'll hold that one in my back pocket until I hear some more opinions!

 

Thanks Silver! Food for thought.

Raven

[Octavulg]

My chapter is descended from a lone space wolf strike cruiser that was ambushed by said legions and crippled in the warp.

A lone Strike Cruiser would be pretty weird in the Heresy, when everything was bigger (including fleets). Furthermore, I don't know that you CAN ambush things in the Warp.

It was spat out of the warp and crashed landed on a uncharted (but inhabited) feral world. The survivors of the crash salvaged the remnants of their ship, its armory, and its supplies and set up a fortified position. Fortunately they had an apothecary (or several) on board and equipment to preserve gene-seed (as the whole idea falls apart if that doesn't exist).

Space Wolves use Wolf Priests as apothecaries.

 

That said, the implantation process would seem to need more than one apothecary. And a lot of equipment a Strike Cruiser might not carry (and that might not survive a crash landing).

Yet IF they had managed to maintain their geneseed (no doubt a ritual no one understands anymore, but is still revered as a necessity for survival) and if their armor and equipment could be maintained to a functional standard (not pretty, but functional) could this concept work?

Yes and no. It feels gimmicky and a bit contrived. Also, I don't really see what it gets you - a normal chapter process can get you all of this except the Space Wolves geneseed. Rules, character, what have you - all can be attained through the normal process.

 

I just don't get the point. It's a lot of hoops to little result.

[Gripharius]

If we are tossing around ways to create a "legitimate" Space Wolves successor, then I would attack it directly.  Set it as part of the Cursed Founding, an attempt by the AdMech to "fix" the Space Wolves gene-seed.

 

The AdMech/Administratum secretly gather some Fenris natives... uh, somehow... and then Iron Womb more Fenrisian descendants for implantation.  The pseudo-Fenrisians are put on a death world far from Fenris (in both location and theme) to populate and make a recruiting pool for the Chapter.  These Fenrisians might not be too unhappy about this idea, especially if they were a minor tribe on Fenris with little land (land is very valuable on Fenris) who are suddenly given a whole bunch of land they don't have to continually fight other Fenrisians to keep.

 

So, you have "fixed" Space Wolf gene-seed and Fenris II to base it from.  Your small tribe of Fenris transplants could have their own unique (Scottish) culture and they could adopt the bear as their totem as a symbol of starting over on this new world. 

 

Personally, I'd decrease the unique characteristics of the Space Wolf gene-seed  and make them flawed in some significant way. I think if you're going to make a Space Wolves successor, you have to make them more flawed than the Space Wolves.  The AdMech's "fix" couldn't be a real "fix" at all or you're making a major change to 40k dogma.   

 

I'd might use Blood Angels rules and make a counts-as Death Company full of guys whose gene-seed degrades and turns them into mindless beasts a la Red Thirst/Black Rage.  An amplified version of the Curse of the Wulfen.

 

That is if, and only if, we were discussing how a Space Wolves successor might be made if one were to be made.  My personal belief is that the fact that the Space Wolves cannot have successor Chapters is an important element of their fluff and who they are as a Chapter.  I personally wouldn't make a Space Wolf successor because I think that would diminsh that aspect of the Space Wolves.

[Ravenfeld]

Fair enough, I think Silvers suggestion was sound. I don't want to step on any Wolves toes so I could just make them a Fist Successor that went tribal on a feral world they crash landed on thousands of years ago, and are only recently being reintegrated into the imperium at large (last few centuries perhaps). Dorn's geneseed would be solid enough to make it work, and I could still use the Space Wolf dex to represent their tribal culture. Not exactly what I wanted, but it will have to do. I can't force a round peg into a star shaped hole, well not while keeping the "I am a huge fan of the fluff" claim anyway.

 

Thanks guy,

Raven

[Octavulg]

Why do you want them to crash land so badly? You can have very tribal Marines without going to those lengths.

[Ravenfeld]

That was more a gimmick for the Space Wolves angle, since they haven't had any foundings intentionally created for their geneseed due to the "issues" with the last attempt. I figured the crash would have made it easier to work with. With that out of the way I am sure I can make it more mainstream.

[Muras]

If you wish to consider the original idea, think of this.  If a Wolves cruiser from the Heresy crash landed on a world, many of the non-Marine inhabitants could have survived.  Given an Astartes lifespan, perhaps the 2nd or 3rd generation Fenrisians after they mingled with the local population still possesed enough of whatever genetic material is unique to Fenris to make it doable.  If you were to do this, I would probably throw in a big higher percentage of genetic failutres, wulfen or otherwise due to impure genetics, but as long as the tech was kept up enough that they could do the implantation process to some degree or another it might be workable by the way I'm looking at it. 

[Ravenfeld]

If you wish to consider the original idea, think of this.  If a Wolves cruiser from the Heresy crash landed on a world, many of the non-Marine inhabitants could have survived.  Given an Astartes lifespan, perhaps the 2nd or 3rd generation Fenrisians after they mingled with the local population still possesed enough of whatever genetic material is unique to Fenris to make it doable.  If you were to do this, I would probably throw in a big higher percentage of genetic failutres, wulfen or otherwise due to impure genetics, but as long as the tech was kept up enough that they could do the implantation process to some degree or another it might be workable by the way I'm looking at it. 

 

That was my original thought on the whole, but then again we are talking about at least 7 thousand years outside of the Imperium, and so it would need to be more than just 3 generations, even 7 generations would be a huge stretch. More likely it would be a minimum of generation 12 or 13... at which point the gene-seed would begin to crumble under its own fallacies.

[Muras]

Well if you've decided to go another path that's fine.  I was just saying, that it's not impossible to continue in the vein you were going just due to the lack of Fenrisians to implant.  Never know when you start mixing genes you'll end up with.  Could have a  mutated SW geneseed that has adapted to the two people's intermingling better, destabilizing it from standard Wolves seed, but while still allowing it to thrive.  Could make for an interesting spin on a chapter.

[Ravenfeld]

Well if you've decided to go another path that's fine.  I was just saying, that it's not impossible to continue in the vein you were going just due to the lack of Fenrisians to implant.  Never know when you start mixing genes you'll end up with.  Could have a  mutated SW geneseed that has adapted to the two people's intermingling better, destabilizing it from standard Wolves seed, but while still allowing it to thrive.  Could make for an interesting spin on a chapter.

 

That's actually a really solid point pred, what if something in the natives off-set the natural mutations of the helix? The only question is when this is discovered why are these people not harvested by the Ad Mech to purify the Space Wolves gene pool at large.

[Brother Ambroz]

Man its your army and your fluff, you can make it fit.

 

I think the geneseed mutation bit is a great starting point.

[Ravenfeld]

Thanks for the support Tanith, and I mostly agree with you. However I want it to fit into the Canon at large, I'm a fluff junky like that. I want to find feasible ways to make this chapter work within the lore of the 40k universe at large, and that means coming up with inventive ways to deal with the Canine Helix and the effects of time on the chapter's mindset and means of combat. I think that having them take a side-step into becoming Hibernian in mentality isn't so far fetched, as warrior culture begets warrior culture. They are still clan based, still revere the local wildlife, and still like to drink and fight. Yet they are also different enough to create some unique qualities that will set them apart. That is the primary reason I wanted to use Space Wolves because the jump from Wolves to Scotts is marginal. On the other hand thousands of years without contact with other chapters or the imperium at large might have profound effects on any astartes. Being stranded will do that, as I understand it.

 

So if I can make it work I will because it is what I want. Thanks for your support!

[Gripharius]

 

That's actually a really solid point pred, what if something in the natives off-set the natural mutations of the helix? The only question is when this is discovered why are these people not harvested by the Ad Mech to purify the Space Wolves gene pool at large.

 

Do you have to start with Space Wolves gene-seed?  Start with another Chapter's gene-seed that has shown some mutations already, and have it mutate when first introduced to the first initiates from the bear-themed world.  So it isn't Space Wolf gene-seed that mutates into something else, it's some other gene-seed that mutates into the Space Bears.  Or make it a Cursed Founding thing where the AdMech tinkered with the gene-seed and intentionally made Space Bears.

[Brother Ambroz]

I see you're a fluff nazi eh? You can still make it work I think though.

 

He wants to use wolves because they're the closest animalistic/beastial chapter to what he is looking for.

[Muras]

Perhaps this new offshoot of the Wolves' gene seed has the same problem as the original?  Now that it's sort of mutated with the influx of the natives bred with Fenrisians, perhaps it only works on hybrid Fenrisians from the world you crashed on?  As for why they wouldn't cart people off and spread them all throughout the Imperium, what's stopping them from doing it on Fenris?  The Wolves.  They have little to no authority on a Chapter homeworld last I recalled. 

[Ecritter]

I see no problems going the way Pred26 suggested.  A Strike Cruiser only carries a single company of SMs ... but it carries thousands of support personnel (normal Fenris guys) since a Strike Cruiser is around 3 miles long, so you should have plenty of genetic material to work with.

 

As for things becoming ritual and no one really remembering why they do it ... I'd say the knowledge would be passed down through the SMs very religiously.

[Ravenfeld]

The issue, and correct me if I'm wrong, with the wolves Geneseed is it is incredibly unstable. The second founding chapter was rife with mutations that caused them to be labelled as aberrant in the eyes of the Imperium at large. Something about the Canine Helix being unstable outside of those born from Fernis proper. This means that barring a position mutation in the gene-seed, or some sort of genetic "tempering" on the part of the world's natural population, there is no way to skirt the issue. My chapter would devolve into werewolves.

 

Well E-critter I imagine they would instill a religious stigma around the process, but 8 milennia is a long time for any culture to survive, there will always be political shifts, the rise and fall of glorious and terrible leaders. Things get clouded. The only reason the Imperium is so "sound" in its religious applications is its massive bureaucratic theocratic mega corporations that enforce their will on the worlds in the Imperium at large. And just look at how much the views of the Imperium changed after the Emperor was no longer around to slap peoples wrists. The fact is no matter how closely guarded and enforced a particular process is it will degrade and change with time. Especially without the abundance of technology to enforce that knowledge, I imagine it eventually became a practice of actually teaching the techniques and word of mouth, a ritual handed down from "medicine man" to "medicine man" for centuries.. a gift to make you into a god and not one given lightly.

 

In short I am sure the resolve and fervor of the founding marine body could keep the scientific and specific practice true and pure for maybe four or five generations after they pass on, after that it would begin to deviate, the message becomes less clear, by generation 13 it would be legend, and probably surrounded in all sorts of mysticism. That is why when they are rediscovered and audited by imperial bodies for heresy or corruption they co-operate, because legends tell of this day, tell of these people, they are to be trusted.. they are our brothers. Makes sense, no?

[Ecritter]

The issue, and correct me if I'm wrong, with the wolves Geneseed is it is incredibly unstable. The second founding chapter was rife with mutations that caused them to be labelled as aberrant in the eyes of the Imperium at large. Something about the Canine Helix being unstable outside of those born from Fernis proper. This means that barring a position mutation in the gene-seed, or some sort of genetic "tempering" on the part of the world's natural population, there is no way to skirt the issue. My chapter would devolve into werewolves.

But you're chapter would come from pure Pre-heresy Space Wolves ... and the thousands of normal men on the ship would over time breed on the planet and pass on their unique genetic traits.  That should work. so as stated you'd have basically Fenris II.

 

Also, you must be thinking 3rd Founding ... since the 2nd Founding was simply the division of the Legions.

 

CORRETION:

 

The Wolf Brothers were the 2nd Founding split.

[Ravenfeld]

 

The issue, and correct me if I'm wrong, with the wolves Geneseed is it is incredibly unstable. The second founding chapter was rife with mutations that caused them to be labelled as aberrant in the eyes of the Imperium at large. Something about the Canine Helix being unstable outside of those born from Fernis proper. This means that barring a position mutation in the gene-seed, or some sort of genetic "tempering" on the part of the world's natural population, there is no way to skirt the issue. My chapter would devolve into werewolves.

But you're chapter would come from pure Pre-heresy Space Wolves ... and the thousands of normal men on the ship would over time breed on the planet and pass on their unique genetic traits.  That should work. so as stated you'd have basically Fenris II.

 

Also, you must be thinking 3rd Founding ... since the 2nd Founding was simply the division of the Legions.

 

That, that is an excellent point my friend. Wow, its so obvious! The passing of mortal genetic material passes on whatever genes allow for stable implantation of Russ's gene-seed, gradually that material is disseminated into the human population at large, the terrible mutations are averted and they are allowed to survive. The likelihood might be slim, but there is always a possibility. A scientific exception to the rule, and one not flaunted by the Imperium at large. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sons never actually encounter the Wolves, they might be kept separate or have just never been made aware of one another... hrmm.

[Muras]

Encritter has my point down.  Nowhere is it stated what the Wolf Brothers were given.  The impression I've gotten is that they basically took a bunch of Space Wolves to another world and started a typical Astartes recruitment there from the locals.  Since they were not Fenrisians, the geneseed devolved to the point that they basically were all becoming wolfen.  The background is a bit vauge on what resources were brought with the Wolf Brothers.  Perhaps that's why they didn't immediately notice a problem is some of the Natives they brought with were viable marines and it wasn't until they started recruiting more extensively from the population of the new Homeworld or recruiting worlds that they noticed the problem.

[Ecritter]

Also consider this, since your marines will not have the Cup of Wulfen to drink from they'd have to be created like other SMs (pre-heresy) and never receive the Canis Helix.  This would mean of course they'd loose all the Space Wolves special abilities though.

[Muras]

 

 

The issue, and correct me if I'm wrong, with the wolves Geneseed is it is incredibly unstable. The second founding chapter was rife with mutations that caused them to be labelled as aberrant in the eyes of the Imperium at large. Something about the Canine Helix being unstable outside of those born from Fernis proper. This means that barring a position mutation in the gene-seed, or some sort of genetic "tempering" on the part of the world's natural population, there is no way to skirt the issue. My chapter would devolve into werewolves.

But you're chapter would come from pure Pre-heresy Space Wolves ... and the thousands of normal men on the ship would over time breed on the planet and pass on their unique genetic traits.  That should work. so as stated you'd have basically Fenris II.

 

Also, you must be thinking 3rd Founding ... since the 2nd Founding was simply the division of the Legions.

 

That, that is an excellent point my friend. Wow, its so obvious! The passing of mortal genetic material passes on whatever genes allow for stable implantation of Russ's gene-seed, gradually that material is disseminated into the human population at large, the terrible mutations are averted and they are allowed to survive. The likelihood might be slim, but there is always a possibility. A scientific exception to the rule, and one not flaunted by the Imperium at large. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sons never actually encounter the Wolves, they might be kept separate or have just never been made aware of one another... hrmm.

That is what we were going for aye.  You could even incorporate the idea that the chapter doesn't realize who the wolves are even if they did encounter them.  By now they'd be legendary figures known by the name Vlyka Fenryka (as the Wolves called themselves) and that's not a name any outsiders refer to them as.

[Muras]

Also consider this, since your marines will not have the Cup of Wulfen to drink from they'd have to be created like other SMs (pre-heresy) and never receive the Canis Helix.  This would mean of course they'd loose all the Space Wolves special abilities though.

Been too long since I read any of the background regarding what's in the cup.  Could be that they found an alternative, blood from an Astartes like the BA perhaps?