Sons of Ursolon - A Question for YOU!

[Ecritter]

So here's what you got.

 

- Fenris Genes (from suvivors)

- No Cup of Wulfen

- No Canis Helix

 

So you'd have basically Space Marines that resemble the ones created on Terra before the great crusade began, but with Fenris Genes.

 

 

Been too long since I read any of the background regarding what's in the cup.  Could be that they found an alternative, blood from an Astartes like the BA perhaps?

Not really.  Where would be find an artifact that belonged to Russ ... since the cup was his.

 

I say stick with the pre-Crusade Space Wolves ... meaning you loose all animalistic traits.

[Gripharius]

I still think you'd have more flexibility by making your gene-seed parallel Space Wolf gene-seed rather than mutate from it.  "Normal" gene-seed has already mutated into Canine Helix once, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for some other "normal" gene-seed to mutate into Ursine Helix.

 

Starting with Ursine Helix -- that is, "standard" gene-seed that parallels Canine Helix by incorporating bear traits rather than wolf traits -- gives you the freedom to use any Founding and you don't trample on any Space Wolves fluff.

 

A Chapter that develops a mindless rage mutation doesn't have to start from Blood Angels gene-seed. Why spend half your IA trying to justify how your Chapter's creation doesn't conflict with fluff-canon if you don't have to?

[Ravenfeld]

Very valid points, of course I would lose the special abilities in theme (namely I would take no wulfen, and I would have to figure a justifiable reason for acute senses) but I could still justify the others with relative ease. Counter-Attack is a basic combat principle, they are just as rowdy and fighty as the wolves are, so that works. I am also thinking I might not use grey hunters, crazy I know, but I am thinking since they are dealing with Orks they might recruit a lot of youngbloods and have a very seasoned elite core, so blood claws and wolf guard namely. I was also thinking about not having any energy weapons due to their having been stranded they never had access to the more finicky weapons that would have burnt out or lost charge ages ago. Primarily bolter weapons, heavy bolters, assault cannons, stuff with tangible ammunition that could be created in relatively simple terms. What do you guys think of that?

 

Ecritter did you read my edit that I posted before you re-posted? About the cultural view of the gene-seed implantation process?

 

@Griph - I see what your saying but I find coming up with the Ursine Helix to be less inventive and more bland than attempting to tackle the space wolf challenge. Not only that but the fluff states no more chapters have been attempted! This wouldn't be an attempt at making a new chapter from the SW genes, it would simply be a freak incident that yielded the result. No intention was made, it wasn't an experiment, the Ad Mech didn't plan it, it simply happened, a one in a billion chance that happened to work.

[Ecritter]

Very valid points, of course I would lose the special abilities in theme (namely I would take no wulfen, and I would have to figure a justifiable reason for acute senses) but I could still justify the others with relative ease. Counter-Attack is a basic combat principle, they are just as rowdy and fighty as the wolves are, so that works. I am also thinking I might not use grey hunters, crazy I know, but I am thinking since they are dealing with Orks they might recruit a lot of youngbloods and have a very seasoned elite core, so blood claws and wolf guard namely. I was also thinking about not having any energy weapons due to their having been stranded they never had access to the more finicky weapons that would have burnt out or lost charge ages ago. Primarily bolter weapons, heavy bolters, assault cannons, stuff with tangible ammunition that could be created in relatively simple terms. What do you guys think of that?

 

Ecritter did you read my edit that I posted before you re-posted? About the cultural view of the gene-seed implantation process?

 

@Griph - I see what your saying but I find coming up with the Ursine Helix to be less inventive and more bland than attempting to tackle the space wolf challenge. Not only that but the fluff states no more chapters have been attempted! This wouldn't be an attempt at making a new chapter from the SW genes, it would simply be a freak incident that yielded the result. No intention was made, it wasn't an experiment, the Ad Mech didn't plan it, it simply happened, a one in a billion chance that happened to work.

I did not.  The problem with your revision is the same I have with Chapters 'forgetting' what geneseed they came from.  It's something that is drilled into every Space Marine ... it won't be forgotten.

 

One other problem I just read about.  Space Wolves Geneseed won't work without the Canis Helix ... so the only way I can see now is (since you're using heresy era geneseed) is for it to come from the orginal Crusade era marines before they found Russ .. but that's still doable too.  Most of those marines were still alive when the Heresy started.

 

Another thing to remember, if you use original Crusade era geneseed ... the Fenris genes isn't even an issue anymore, since they were all made on Terra before Fenris was even found.

[Ravenfeld]

I did not.  The problem with your revision is the same I have with Chapters 'forgetting' what geneseed they came from.  It's something that is drilled into every Space Marine ... it won't be forgotten.

 

One other problem I just read about.  Space Wolves Geneseed won't work without the Canis Helix ... so the only way I can see now is (since you're using heresy era geneseed) is for it to come from the orginal Crusade era marines before they found Russ .. but that's still doable too.  Most of those marines were still alive when the Heresy started.

 

Another thing to remember, if you use original Crusade era geneseed ... the Fenris genes isn't even an issue anymore, since they were all made on Terra before Fenris was even found.

 

There are plenty of chapters in and out of canon that have forgetting who they're primarch and founding legions are, that is just a fact of life in the 40k universe. Even if it is drilled into your head you got to remember that the people who fill these roles as astartes are drawn from mortal populations, and in some instances extreme need can lead to corners being cut. Take the minotaurs for example, their psycho-indoctrination strategy yields full fledged marines in a short time frame, but there are hints of some nasty side-effects. Also, being a marine represents different things to different cultures and how thing are handled range very differently. My argument is that for all the time that has passed, coupled with the lack of technology, outside support, and the constant warfare against the feral orks of the world it is entirely possible that leader A made a change here, leader B did the same there, and by the time you hit leader Z the whole reason Leader A did what he did is clouded in the annals of history. I'm bringing mysticism to the chapter, no worse than the Space Wolves with their "spirit magic" in rune priests! haha.

[Ecritter]

 

I did not.  The problem with your revision is the same I have with Chapters 'forgetting' what geneseed they came from.  It's something that is drilled into every Space Marine ... it won't be forgotten.

 

One other problem I just read about.  Space Wolves Geneseed won't work without the Canis Helix ... so the only way I can see now is (since you're using heresy era geneseed) is for it to come from the orginal Crusade era marines before they found Russ .. but that's still doable too.  Most of those marines were still alive when the Heresy started.

 

Another thing to remember, if you use original Crusade era geneseed ... the Fenris genes isn't even an issue anymore, since they were all made on Terra before Fenris was even found.

 

There are plenty of chapters in and out of canon that have forgetting who they're primarch and founding legions are, that is just a fact of life in the 40k universe. Even if it is drilled into your head you got to remember that the people who fill these roles as astartes are drawn from mortal populations, and in some instances extreme need can lead to corners being cut. Take the minotaurs for example, their psycho-indoctrination strategy yields full fledged marines in a short time frame, but there are hints of some nasty side-effects. Also, being a marine represents different things to different cultures and how thing are handled range very differently. My argument is that for all the time that has passed, coupled with the lack of technology, outside support, and the constant warfare against the feral orks of the world it is entirely possible that leader A made a change here, leader B did the same there, and by the time you hit leader Z the whole reason Leader A did what he did is clouded in the annals of history. I'm bringing mysticism to the chapter, no worse than the Space Wolves with their "spirit magic" in rune priests! haha.

If you write it correctly ... yes over time it'd work.

 

And since I'd like to see it work, I'll help where I can.

[Ravenfeld]

Thanks Ecritter, Pred, and everyone else. This has been an EXCELLENT brainstorming session, got some solid ideas for a foundation!

[Brother Ambroz]

Could also have been left out on purpose if the leadership somewhere down the line decided that was the best course of action.

[Messor]

Where does the Helix come from? Is it produced by the Cup? I ask because I feel like once you go "No Helix, No abilities", you're losing a lot and dragging the Sons of Ursolon farther back than they have to go. Is it not the Canis Helix that renders the gene-seed unstable in the first place? At least some significant part of it is apparently not absorbed/persistent, otherwise it would be unnecessary for every new Wolf to partake of it. So if their's no Helix present, its makes no difference whether or not your crew is Fenrisian, and you're back at "Why start from Space Wolves." Ecritter mentions going back to some of the Crusade era Wolves, which is essentially just that. After all that it just seems odd that a Chapter analogous to the Wolves would develop. That's all based on my limited knowledge of the Wolves' fluff though. I think if there's anyway you can incorporate the Helix, it should be there.

[Ecritter]

Where does the Helix come from? Is it produced by the Cup? I ask because I feel like once you go "No Helix, No abilities", you're losing a lot and dragging the Sons of Ursolon farther back than they have to go. Is it not the Canis Helix that renders the gene-seed unstable in the first place? At least some significant part of it is apparently not absorbed/persistent, otherwise it would be unnecessary for every new Wolf to partake of it. So if their's no Helix present, its makes no difference whether or not your crew is Fenrisian, and you're back at "Why start from Space Wolves." Ecritter mentions going back to some of the Crusade era Wolves, which is essentially just that. After all that it just seems odd that a Chapter analogous to the Wolves would develop. That's all based on my limited knowledge of the Wolves' fluff though. I think if there's anyway you can incorporate the Helix, it should be there.

The Helix is mixed in a formula and drank from the Cup ... it triggers the first geneseed.  SW geneseed won't work without it.  As far as I can tell, there was no Helix on Terra ... so only the Crusade era SWs can be successfully be made without it.

[Messor]

Right, and I'm hung up on the "mixed in a formula" bit. Where does the formula come from that prevents an isolated force of Wolves, who need to persist, if not expand, to survive carry out their mandate from mixing/having it. Because "the cup" is a not a satisfying answer.

[Octavulg]

OK...what do you want? Tribal marines? A Space Wolves codex army? A Space Wolves geneseed army? Some Marines who crash-landed somewhere?

 

Because, honestly, the more of those you insist on, the trickier it'll be to make things work.

[Ecritter]

Right, and I'm hung up on the "mixed in a formula" bit. Where does the formula come from that prevents an isolated force of Wolves, who need to persist, if not expand, to survive carry out their mandate from mixing/having it. Because "the cup" is a not a satisfying answer.

Don't have all the answers, but I'll try with what I have.

 

 

The Canis Helix is a mutation of normal gene-seed that gifts the Wolves with enhanced abilities ...

 

So, its a mutation of the normal geneseed.  When did the mutation happen .... no idea.  I can only assume (and I hate to even say that word) that it happened sometime after Russ was found and Fenris was set up as the Legion's homeworld (since it mirrors things on the planet ... wolves, etc).  I'd guess that if it'd have happened with the original geneseed created on Terra .... that the Emperor would have stopped it and the Legion would have been destroyed like the 2 lost ones.

[Ravenfeld]

OK...what do you want? Tribal marines? A Space Wolves codex army? A Space Wolves geneseed army? Some Marines who crash-landed somewhere?

 

Because, honestly, the more of those you insist on, the trickier it'll be to make things work.

 

Hehe, this is going to be tricky my friend.. that's the whole point! There is no joy in making an easy concept and executing it, at least not in my mind. If I make a DIY chapter it needs to be an undertaking, not just a set of pretty colours with a name tag. I want them to be Space Wolves, lost in time and space since the heresy, who still possess some of the distinguishing features of their parent chapter, but have deviated from them culturally due to the expanse of time and necessities of their current situation. I might even go so far as to say that the sector they crash landed in was so littered by warpstorms for the 8 or 9 millenia that travel to the sector was impossible, and it only cleared up in the last thousand years. 

 

Tribal Marines are easy.

 

Yes I want to use C:SW. Bear Cavalry.

 

Geneseed would be nice, yes, I want Russ to be their Primarch, long lost though that knowledge may be. If you can produce for me a chapter that would have a more direct parallel to hibernian scotts than vikings I am all ears.. but from a cultural standpoint where fighting, drinking, and shows of force are common you might be hard pressed. Additionally the loyalty to kith and kin, strong tribe or familial ties, and a reverence for beasts. There is no way to slice it, the Wolves are the ideal choice. So either I jepordize the heart of my concept to make life easier, or I move forward and attempt to find a feasible, justifiable, and reasonable way to fit this square peg in a round hole. Ideally I would like everyones blessing to move forward, including the nay sayers, but in the end I may have to settle with whatever I can get.!

 

Crash landing isn't a hard angle to cover either and I think it provides a solid foundation for the story to unfold. Like I said previously there has been no attempts to make new foundings from SW gene-seed after the second founding due to the mutations, this incident occurred even before the second founding. It is feasible, just like there is a chance that there is a planet exactly like earth in the universe, that somehow this specific set of conditions allowed for the deviation from the helix to occur, or indeed continue to function as intended. Some of the points made where sound, the dissemination of the thousands of mortal crew into the local populations could set the foundation for the fenrisian genetic code, or contrarily the natives themselves, coupled with the effects of local ecosystems, flora, fauna, or whatever, might create in these people a similar set of genetic conditioning to those found on fenris that allows for the  tolerance of the helix. There is ways of explaining it to make it work, and like any heroic storyline it is best drawn from the infinitesimal chances of occurring. You're right, if it were easy the Ad Mech would be pumping out new foundings of SW's like chips, but perhaps they don't look at it in the right way, perhaps they think it is not possible given the results of the past, or perhaps they weren't able to replicate all the factors required to MAKE it work.

 

A book could come out tomorrow that retcons the whole space wolf geneseed anyway, the fact that I am truly trying to make it work within the confines of the lore at hand should do me credit. I could always just cop out and say forget canon and do it anyway! I don't want that, I would rather get a nod from everyone and make it work. I am willing to put forth the effort necessary to do so.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Where does the Helix come from? Is it produced by the Cup? I ask because I feel like once you go "No Helix, No abilities", you're losing a lot and dragging the Sons of Ursolon farther back than they have to go. Is it not the Canis Helix that renders the gene-seed unstable in the first place? At least some significant part of it is apparently not absorbed/persistent, otherwise it would be unnecessary for every new Wolf to partake of it. So if their's no Helix present, its makes no difference whether or not your crew is Fenrisian, and you're back at "Why start from Space Wolves." Ecritter mentions going back to some of the Crusade era Wolves, which is essentially just that. After all that it just seems odd that a Chapter analogous to the Wolves would develop. That's all based on my limited knowledge of the Wolves' fluff though. I think if there's anyway you can incorporate the Helix, it should be there.

 

I think you make a valid point, how do they continue to make new wolves. Every single new aspirant drinks from the same cup? It could be coolaid for all we know and just a fancy ritual! Haha! But still shedding some light on this would be good.

 

 

Right, and I'm hung up on the "mixed in a formula" bit. Where does the formula come from that prevents an isolated force of Wolves, who need to persist, if not expand, to survive carry out their mandate from mixing/having it. Because "the cup" is a not a satisfying answer.

Don't have all the answers, but I'll try with what I have.

 

 

>The Canis Helix is a mutation of normal gene-seed that gifts the Wolves with enhanced abilities ...

 

So, its a mutation of the normal geneseed.  When did the mutation happen .... no idea.  I can only assume (and I hate to even say that word) that it happened sometime after Russ was found and Fenris was set up as the Legion's homeworld (since it mirrors things on the planet ... wolves, etc).  I'd guess that if it'd have happened with the original geneseed created on Terra .... that the Emperor would have stopped it and the Legion would have been destroyed like the 2 lost ones.

 

 

You're probably right, it would have occurred when the Fenrisian people were integrated into the legion along with Russ, that stands to reason. Which means my guys would, in fact, be under the umbrella of the helix.

[Messor]

 

 

 

Right, and I'm hung up on the "mixed in a formula" bit. Where does the formula come from that prevents an isolated force of Wolves, who need to persist, if not expand, to survive carry out their mandate from mixing/having it. Because "the cup" is a not a satisfying answer.

Don't have all the answers, but I'll try with what I have.

The Canis Helix is a mutation of normal gene-seed that gifts the Wolves with enhanced abilities ...[/size]

So, its a mutation of the normal geneseed. When did the mutation happen .... no idea. I can only assume (and I hate to even say that word) that it happened sometime after Russ was found and Fenris was set up as the Legion's homeworld (since it mirrors things on the planet ... wolves, etc). I'd guess that if it'd have happened with the original geneseed created on Terra .... that the Emperor would have stopped it and the Legion would have been destroyed like the 2 lost ones.

 

That would be referring to the mutation/effect of the Helix(which yeah, can only be post Russ-arrival), but not the Canis Helix formula. You can't really drink mutation. I'm not wondering where it came from, rather where it is, or how it's produced(looks like there's no sources for finding that). If there's nothing to say where the Helix comes from, or the significance of the Cup besides being a cup, I see no reason not to incorporate the Helix.

[Octavulg]

Hehe, this is going to be tricky my friend.. that's the whole point! There is no joy in making an easy concept and executing it, at least not in my mind. If I make a DIY chapter it needs to be an undertaking, not just a set of pretty colours with a name tag.

If there is insufficient difficulty for you in writing a simple IA well, it's because you have not grasped the magnitude of doing so.

 

Do it, then tell me it's easy.

I want them to be Space Wolves, lost in time and space since the heresy, who still possess some of the distinguishing features of their parent chapter, but have deviated from them culturally due to the expanse of time and necessities of their current situation.

Why would they stop thinking of themselves as Space Wolves?

Geneseed would be nice, yes, I want Russ to be their Primarch, long lost though that knowledge may be. If you can produce for me a chapter that would have a more direct parallel to hibernian scotts than vikings I am all ears..

Hibernia is Ireland. So what do you mean by "hibernian Scots"?

 

but from a cultural standpoint where fighting, drinking, and shows of force are common you might be hard pressed.

Almost any moderately martial culture is going to have a lot of those. Of major chapters, the White Scars spring to mind.

Crash landing isn't a hard angle to cover either and I think it provides a solid foundation for the story to unfold.

Yeah. The magical crash landing that is hard enough to strand them but not so hard it breaks their equipment or kills too many of them, and just so happens to take place with enough apothecary resources to set up a recruitment cycle that sustains them despite the notorious temperamentality of the Space Wolves geneseed.

 

If you think that's a solid foundation, I would recommend against a career in engineering.

You're right, if it were easy the Ad Mech would be pumping out new foundings of SW's like chips, but perhaps they don't look at it in the right way, perhaps they think it is not possible given the results of the past, or perhaps they weren't able to replicate all the factors required to MAKE it work.

Ah, right. Adeptus Mechanicus genetors on Mars just aren't as clever as some superstitious barbarian whose equipment has bounced off each corner of the room a few times on the way down to the planet.

[Ravenfeld]

I am all for criticism, but you're literally just being a antagonistic jerk right now. So any valid points you may have a tarnished by a supremely bad attitude. I would appreciate it if you at least attempt to maintain some semblance of cordiality. You don't need to agree, you don't need to like it, but at least conduct yourself in a civilized fashion, thank you.

 

As to your points:

 

I have written IA articles, a couple of which were destroyed in the upgrade of this forum. I have been attempting to get up the nerve to re-write them.

 

Time changes everything, in three generations people from England started to think of themselves as American, in 8,000 years I imagine the lapse in time would have a similar effect. When you're elders, elders, elders, elder is born and raised on this world and only knows about any other as legend it is really hard to maintain that your from some other planet somewhere with these other people on it. It really isn't that hard a concept to grasp.

 

Hibernia is Ireland, you're right. I remember reading in a history book that a great many of the early pict and scottish cultures originated from Ireland and thus were named Hibernian Scots, although that was more than a decade ago, so I will eat that one. Regardless the Picts or Scottish Clans would be what I am going for.

 

Again I agree with you, however I maintain that a Viking heritage lines up better with a Scottish one, at least when compared to a Mongolian transition. Although I suppose that is a plausible alternative if push comes to shove.

 

The comments on the crash landing I can't even begin to touch. Is it a plot point, yes, it is cliche, perhaps, but it is one of the reasons it would happen. You tell me how you would go around making a primitive space marine chapter that has outdated gear and equipment that has been outside the imperium for 8000 years without aid or otherwise. I mean it is kind of integral to my whole concept. Like it or not that isn't something that is going to change, they are on the planet and fighting feral Orks, they lack the means to exterminate the menace so they fight a defensive battle through the centuries. If they had back up from the Imperium that whole struggle is easily won, if they have contact with the Imperium there is no need for development of their own culture because they are still connected with Fenris or any other chapter they originate from. The whole damn story hinges on them being lost. If I have them crash and all die that doesn't work either. So please, give me some CONSTRUCTIVE feed back instead of just shooting ideas down with snarky comments. Thanks.

 

See this just shows you're not even reading what I am writing, just electing to quote snippets and take them out of context. No one of these "superstitious" barbarians finds the cure for the problem. It is a cure that is developed in the gene-pool by accident. There is no splicing, no tweaking, and no touching of genes, it is a freak occurrence that could not be planned for or manufactured, hence why the Tech priests failed where nature succeeded. I am definitely not saying that some apothecaries got together and solved the problem over a game of poker... yeesh. I think nature > tech priests when it comes to genes anyway, don't you?

 

If it makes it easier I can make it a whole damn strike force that gets ambushed and crash lands on the planet. Thus increasing the odds of enough survivors to make it work. After all the legions were massive in number during the heresy. Food for thought.

 

Edited for Grammar & Spelling. Also, I was a little heated at the time, I stand by my sentiment though. I will take constructive criticism in any form, but please be constructive. Just shooting down ideas because you don't like them, being sarcastic or snippy, or just generally unhelpful does no one any good. Thank you.

[Culebras]

First of all, I would like to say I have enjoyed reading this brain storming session.  the idea of an Ireland or Bear themed space marine chapter based on the space wolves is interesting. 

 

If all marines descended from Leman Russ have to drink from the cup of the wulfen, how did the wolf brothers manage?  as far as I can see, there is no indication how long it took them to disintegrate.  Assuming they operated long enough to train and implant their own generation of recruits, would they need to have traveled all the way to fenris just to drink from the cup? might there have been a second cup or even multiple cups gifted to the wolf brothers during their founding and over the millenia they became lost  as the chapter fell apart?

 

The only confirmed piece of data i know of states that by the time of the Battle of the Fang (m32), the wolf brothers had already been lost. however, there is no indication if the loss of the wolf brothers happened in the 32 millenia or the 31st.  further, I don't believe I have ever read anything about the chapter being destroyed or purged.  It just describes them as being lost, which I always took to mean it was a slow process.  It might be possible that a few wolf brothers managed to survive but abandoned the name as it had been tainted. Alternatly, could some of the wolf brothers have returned to the space wolves?

 

Heres another question; while space wolve's only had one successor, what if the wolf brothers had more than one? it could be possible that the mechanicus tried to fix the problem.  alternatly, the lost fenrisan colony works as an idea.  Didn't the space marine legions raise auxiliary units from their homeworlds to help during the great crusade?

 

Finally, i would like to close with something.  There is the implication that the flaw in the space wolf geneseed could be corrected with the proper genetic knowledge and that the chaos powers (thousand sons) are very invested in this not comming to pass. you could work this into your backstory if you wanted.

[Octavulg]

I have written IA articles, a couple of which were destroyed in the upgrade of this forum. I have been attempting to get up the nerve to re-write them.

Then, frankly, either you're a much better writer than pretty much everyone I've ever seen work on something here or those weren't even close to being done.

Also, what happened to them? Bracchus I know got eaten in an edit, but what about these other ones?

Time changes everything, in three generations people from England started to think of themselves as American, in 8,000 years I imagine the lapse in time would have a similar effect. When you're elders, elders, elders, elder is born and raised on this world and only knows about any other as legend it is really hard to maintain that your from some other planet somewhere with these other people on it. It really isn't that hard a concept to grasp.

That's the thing about 40K. Stuff doesn't change, even when it logically should. And, if anything, you're leaning on that extra hard by having the Space Wolves be open to change over time while the planet full of people remains the same.

Plus, why wouldn't the Space Wolves try to uplift them, if only to try and create the infrastructure necessary to maintain the Marines' stuff?

Hibernia is Ireland, you're right. I remember readying in a history book that a great many of the early pict and scottish cultures originated from Ireland and thus were named Hibernian Scots, although that was more than a decade ago, so I will eat that one. Regardless the Picts or Scottish Clans would be what I am going for.

I was thinking it would be something like that, but a google turned up only the football team. There's a lot of difference between the Picts and the Scottish clans, IMO (even if one sort of becomes the other), and certainly a difference in the popular understanding. I'd pick one. And are we talking medievalish or ancientish?

Again I agree with you, however I maintain that a Viking heritage lines up better with a Scottish one over a Mongolian to Scottish transition. Although I suppose that is a plausible alternative if push comes to shove.

The thing is, I'm not sure why you feel the need to have such a smooth alignment. If they're going to go native over time, they will. If they're not, they won't. 8000 years is a long time - if the Space Wolves would go native, I don't see why any chapter wouldn't to at least some extent. Though, frankly, I think it's more likely that they'll keep thinking they're Space Wolves even if some things change. The SPACE WOLVES might not think they were, but that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

You tell me how you would go around making a primitive space marine chapter that has outdated gear and equipment that has been outside the imperium for 8000 years without aid or otherwise.

Off the top of my head:

Sleeper ship. The Space Marines were exploring in their Battle Barge along the Rim (or doing something Space Mariney). Their Navigator died. They are trapped, and so head back toward the nearest Imperial star system at an appreciable-but-not-high-enough fraction of c (time dilation would come into play here, which'd make it only 4000 years on board ship). They get there (huzzah). In the meantime, shipboard discipline has broken down - everyone's basically regressed into barbarism. The Space Marines no longer really have control over the population, and are basically waiting things out - their numbers are a lot smaller, and they're forced to recruit from the population. Plus, they have to keep the ship runningish. They tend to fight with each other a lot, since there's not much else to do and whipping the civilians into line is impractical (the ship has basically become an unmappable warren over thousands of years).

Self-imposed exile. The chapter willingly maroons themselves as some kind of self-imposed penance. They leave their ships in orbit, and settle on the planet to meditate on what they've done wrong. Eventually, some of them believe it's time to return, but the ones who know where the Thunderhawks are aren't going for it. They fight. The guys who want to return win, but can't find the Thunderhawks. Over time, they fracture further, associate with local tribes, etc. They maintain geneseed processes, but only barely, and with lots of failure. Eventually, one tribe stumbles on a Thunderhawk. They either leave the others behind or demand fealty for getting off the planet (or some combination of the two).

Starving. The chapter really pissed off the Adeptus Mechanicus - so badly that they couldn't get gear, and other Space Marine chapters wouldn't touch them. They fled, landed on a particular world, tried desperately to maintain themselves, mostly failed, and are now returned, hoping that the Adeptus Mechanicus has forgotten about them (or possibly renaming themselves).

That said, I wouldn't go about that for two reasons:

1) I try not to have either a particular course of events or a particular outcome as features of my chapter (one or the other, but not both). If you have both, you run into problems when the two conflict.*

2) 8000 years of isolation without support would most likely just result in a dead Space Marine chapter. Thus, I wouldn't isolate them for such a ridiculously long length of time.

*For example, you could do a good Space Wolves tribal bear-themed successor, or do a chapter trapped on a planet for a really, really long time (though I think 8000 years is really pushing it). But trying to force one to produce the other doesn't work well, because the two aren't naturally compatible. Surviving for a long time would require organization, discipline and the preservation of knowledge and high technology. That's kind of opposed to being all tribal. Hell, it's kind of opposed to being Space Wolves.

I mean it is kind of integral to my whole concept. Like it or not that isn't something that is going to change, they are on the planet and fighting feral Orks, they lack the means to exterminate the menace so they fight a defensive battle this whole time. If they had back up from the Imperium that whole struggle is easily won, if they have contact with the Imperium there is no need for development of their own culture because they are still connected with Fenris or any other chapter they originate from.

Stop thinking "I must have this in order to have this". Those elements are not part of your concept. Your concept is the things you want your chapter to be. Things are not part of your concept just because you need them to get other parts.

I can easily give you a bear-themed Space Wolves successor. Making them highlanderish is also easy. All you need is a Cursed Founding attempt to make the Space Wolves less temperamental (i.e. more taciturn and bearlike) and an appropriately styled home planet (and there's plenty of milage in both of those things). Having them be heresy survivors marooned for 8000 years is quite tricky and carries a bunch of problems, and unless you actually really like the idea for its own sake, I'd ditch it.

So please, give me some CONSTRUCTIVE feed back instead of just shooting ideas down with snarky comments. Thanks.

I asked you "what of this do you want". You said "all of it". I told you that all of it together made no sense, and told you why (oh, and asked you a bunch of follow up questions on other points). That's pretty much the definition of constructive criticism.

You don't like the tone it was in (though I think you're taking it as a personal attack, when it isn't). But that doesn't mean it's not constructive.

See this just shows you're not even reading what I am writing, just electing to quote snippets and take them out of context. No one of these "superstitious" barbarians finds the cure for the problem. It is a cure that is developed in the gene-pool by accident. There is no splicing, no tweaking, and no touching of genes, it is a freak occurrence that could not be planned for or manufactured, hence why the Tech priests failed where nature succeeded. I am definitely not saying that some apothecaries got together and solved the problem over a game of poker... yeesh.

Wait, so you're actually going to go with the genetic material being so magically coincidentally perfect that it just works with no extra steps or difficulty? I at least thought you were going to have the Wolf Priest put forth some effort. Serendipitous coincidence is almost worse than the Wolf Priest being smarter than the Mechanicus - now random coincidence is smarter than the Mechanicus. They're dumb AND unlucky.

If it makes it easier I can make it a whole damn strike force that gets ambushed and crash lands on the planet. Thus increasing the odds of enough survivors to make it work. After all the legions were massive in number during the heresy. Food for thought.

That makes more sense on one level and less on another - a company could get lost. People go looking for strike forces. Quite hard - if nothing else, they usually have a lot of sweet stuff. Though, honestly, the equipment is more of a problem. Space Marines are very logistics-intensive. They don't have 8000 years of supplies and equipment with them.

[Ecritter]

Its important to remember that the Space Wolves themselves tried and were close to finding a cure for their curse. Battle of the Fang (Novel) by Chris Wraight

 

The Tempering

 

The Canis Helix is at once the Wolves' greatest strength and their fatal flaw; because the Wolves' geneseed is inherently unstable, the Wolves' first (and possibly last) attempt to create Successor Chapters was a complete disaster. When the Legion was divided after the Horus Heresy, a new chapter, the Wolf Brothers, was created. The Wolf Brothers were intended to be the first of many Successor chapters, but quickly succumbed to the Curse of the Wulfen and scattered. Thereafter, the Wolves all but abandoned their hopes of copying themselves.

 

In M32, Thar Ariak Hraldir, the Wolf High Priest of the Space Wolves was conducting experiments, which he called "The Tempering" to control the instability of the Canis Helix, and believed he was close to succeeding. However, his laboratory was destroyed by Magnus the Red during the Battle of the Fang. Magnus, afraid that the Wolves might succeed in proliferating, made a point of destroying the lab and killing Hraldir before moving on to assault the heart of the fortress.

 

The Tempering was a controversial project, and was thus a closely guarded secret within the chapter. It had the approval of Wolf Lord Vaer Greyloc and the Great Wolf, Harek Ironhelm, but the venerable Bjorn, when he learned of the project, was outraged and called it a betrayal of their primarch, Leman Russ; had Magnus not destroyed it, Bjorn said, he would have done so himself. Even a mortal kaerl of the Wolves, Morek Karekborn, thought the prototype Space Marines he saw in Hraldir's lab looked terribly unnatural and lacking in the feral potency he was used to sensing from the Wolves. Hraldir also admitted that he had not yet been able to stabilize his test subjects to the point where they could survive on their own, though he believed he was getting close.[2b] It is thus uncertain whether the Tempering would have succeeded even if Hraldir had completed his work.

[Ravenfeld]

Okay, you're right maybe I did jump the gun a little. But I did feel like you were shooting down ideas for the sake of shooting them down. I may have also been cranky, so I apologize if I took your words out of context.

 

Onto your points:

 

Bracchus was my latest work and it was destroyed in the edit (crushing disappointment as I really really liked it), older articles can be found on other forums, but are notably more ancient. I don't mean to demean the process of writing IA's and I acknowledge they do take a lot of work, at least to do them properly, but work load versus difficulty are two very different things. Anyone who can take there time, edit, touch-up, and edit can make good IA articles, especially with such a bombastic community to help out with the process. I am not trying to claim superiority or anything, but I actually find writing these articles very enjoyable (save when they get eaten by the void).

 

Stuff in the Imperium doesn't change because the Administratum and the various bodies of the Imperial Government prevent change from occurring, often with brutal force. This world would be outside the imperium, and thus outside that limiting authority. I see what you're trying to say here and if the chapter was still in Imperial Space I would be on board, but they aren't (as of this moment anyway) so I still think change is a foregone conclusion.

 

I'm thinking Medieval as the Picts are too chaotic for my liking, being naked, semen covered barbarians as they were. I am aiming more for the kilt wearing clans. Highlanders, yeah that's a good example.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point my friend. I think that any chapter, if given enough time in obscurity, with the lack of necessary support networks would be forced to adapt. While I am starting to realize 8k might be a little out of the question without adding in some sort of temporal disturbance or some such (and in so doing eroding my argument of cultural mutation) I still think even Ultramarines might become something different given enough time and necessity.

 

While those three points are good (self-imposed exile being my personal favorite of the three) I still don't see why the crash puts you off so much, haha! Again, I am not against the idea of shifting the concepts, but if I can make the original idea work I would like to.

 

I will admit the cursed founding angle would work, but it also feels too easy and lacks a certain amount of character... I dunno maybe I am just a masochist when it comes to writing.

 

Again, I might have perceived you as being more abrasive than you had intended, so I apologize.

 

Yes, magical nature. I don't know why having an element or two of random chance is so horrible. You've already made a claim that the Imperium does not change, their perceptions do not change, their methods do not change. If the AdMech attack the issue in the same fashion, from the same angles, every time they try to make a change in the genes of a chapter then they will not have the resources or mindset to think outside of their box, as it were. That isn't to say they are incompetent or even unlucky, that is to say that they don't "perceive" an alternative route to solving the problem. It is plausible that this would be so, hence why they gave up on fixing the Helix in the first place. Case closed, nothing we can do. Why then is it so much worse to have this small strain of DNA on some backwater world happen to hold the key to the problem. It isn't unheard of, in fact a lot of the key stones of modern medicine were found by random chance and with luck.. a particular strain of fungus comes to mind. Again, it might be a little clunky to rely on random chance as the lynch pin of a chapter's stability but it could work if you really think about it.

 

You're right again, but if the system they are spat out in is littered by violent warpstorms for X thousand years then it doesn't really matter how hard the Imperium looks, they won't find them. If the Astronomicon can't light the way and the Navigators can't find the path then they are lost. This would also deal with the limited gene-pool and resources of a lone strike cruiser and could allow me to be more heavy handed with the survivor's casualties both during the crash and over the following centuries while dealing with the Orkish menace.

 

-----

 

Thats a good find Ecritter, and it lends itself to the possibility of even the potential for a cure to the instability. Thank you sir.

[Ravenfeld]

First of all, I would like to say I have enjoyed reading this brain storming session.  the idea of an Ireland or Bear themed space marine chapter based on the space wolves is interesting. 

 

If all marines descended from Leman Russ have to drink from the cup of the wulfen, how did the wolf brothers manage?  as far as I can see, there is no indication how long it took them to disintegrate.  Assuming they operated long enough to train and implant their own generation of recruits, would they need to have traveled all the way to fenris just to drink from the cup? might there have been a second cup or even multiple cups gifted to the wolf brothers during their founding and over the millenia they became lost  as the chapter fell apart?

 

The only confirmed piece of data i know of states that by the time of the Battle of the Fang (m32), the wolf brothers had already been lost. however, there is no indication if the loss of the wolf brothers happened in the 32 millenia or the 31st.  further, I don't believe I have ever read anything about the chapter being destroyed or purged.  It just describes them as being lost, which I always took to mean it was a slow process.  It might be possible that a few wolf brothers managed to survive but abandoned the name as it had been tainted. Alternatly, could some of the wolf brothers have returned to the space wolves?

 

Heres another question; while space wolve's only had one successor, what if the wolf brothers had more than one? it could be possible that the mechanicus tried to fix the problem.  alternatly, the lost fenrisan colony works as an idea.  Didn't the space marine legions raise auxiliary units from their homeworlds to help during the great crusade?

 

Finally, i would like to close with something.  There is the implication that the flaw in the space wolf geneseed could be corrected with the proper genetic knowledge and that the chaos powers (thousand sons) are very invested in this not comming to pass. you could work this into your backstory if you wanted.

 

Glad you've enjoyed it!

 

Excellent question, this is something we're digging into so any insight you can glean would be helpful.

 

As I understand in the Wolf Brothers took a trip into the eye of terror to die in glory, but I could be wrong. It's been awhile since I was reading up on them.

 

I don't think the wolf brothers were around long enough to establish successors of their own, I imagine there is a grace period where a new chapter is examined and tested before they are even truly acknowledged as a functioning chapter in their own right. I also imagine the Mechanicum did attempt to fix the stability issues initially, or maybe they didn't, would need to find evidence in either direction. As for auxiliary, well I think it would be in the form of Guard, not so much Auxiliary legions of Astartes.

 

That is an interesting idea, but I only seeing that coming to a point after the Sons are re-integrated back into the Imperium at large, because until that point knowledge of their stability would only be known to, well, no one really. As not even the Sons realize the gift they possess. I suppose Tzeentch might know, but whose to say?

[NightrawenII]

Geneseed would be nice, yes, I want Russ to be their Primarch, long lost though that knowledge may be. If you can produce for me a chapter that would have a more direct parallel to hibernian scotts than vikings I am all ears.. but from a cultural standpoint where fighting, drinking, and shows of force are common you might be hard pressed. Additionally the loyalty to kith and kin, strong tribe or familial ties, and a reverence for beasts. There is no way to slice it, the Wolves are the ideal choice. So either I jepordize the heart of my concept to make life easier, or I move forward and attempt to find a feasible, justifiable, and reasonable way to fit this square peg in a round hole. Ideally I would like everyones blessing to move forward, including the nay sayers, but in the end I may have to settle with whatever I can get.!

The point here is that what people perceive as nature of Space Wolves is, in effect, a culture of Fenris. Many SW traits stems from the Fenris, not from their genetic legacy.

 

Also, I would like to point out that a making a drunk space brawlers into another drunk space brawlers IS actually less innovative and challenging than using... Ultramarine geneseed for example. And when I'm at it, look at the Mortifactors. These guys are UM successors, yet they are quite distinct from the refined Space Romans.

 

Hibernia is Ireland, you're right. I remember reading in a history book that a great many of the early pict and scottish cultures originated from Ireland and thus were named Hibernian Scots, although that was more than a decade ago, so I will eat that one. Regardless the Picts or Scottish Clans would be what I am going for.

Eh.

Picts are the original gaelic population of what is today known as Scotland and their raids into Roman territory have been the reason for building Hadrian's Wall. However, they haven't been the only ones. In the West, Irish pirates pillaged the rich British lands. These Irish raiders had been known by the Romans (and presumably by their successors, the Romano-Britons) as “Scotti”. Some of them later landed in Dal Riada and founded an Irish kingdom there and it was these Irish tribes who eventually spread throughout Pictish Alba giving the land a new name: Scotland.

 

The comments on the crash landing I can't even begin to touch. Is it a plot point, yes, it is cliche, perhaps, but it is one of the reasons it would happen. You tell me how you would go around making a primitive space marine chapter that has outdated gear and equipment that has been outside the imperium for 8000 years without aid or otherwise. I mean it is kind of integral to my whole concept. Like it or not that isn't something that is going to change, they are on the planet and fighting feral Orks, they lack the means to exterminate

the menace so they fight a defensive battle through the centuries. If they had back up from the Imperium that whole struggle is easily won, if they have contact with the Imperium there is no need for development of their own culture because they are still connected with Fenris or any other chapter they originate from. The whole damn story hinges on them being lost. If I have them crash and all die that doesn't work either. So please, give me some CONSTRUCTIVE feed back instead of just shooting ideas down with snarky  comments. Thanks.

I think you are confusing means for the ends here. You want either pictish bear marines or lost SWs going native.

 

 

~ NightrawenII

[Ravenfeld]

Alright! Alright! I yield.

 

Moving away from Space Wolves. I am thinking Dorn, as I have always had a fondness for the Fists. I still intend to use the Space Wolves Dex, however. But that shouldn't be that big of a stretch anyway provided I pass on Wulfen.

[Octavulg]

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I don't mean to demean the process of writing IA's and I acknowledge they do take a lot of work, at least to do them properly, but work load versus difficulty are two very different things. Anyone who can take there time, edit, touch-up, and edit can make good IA articles, especially with such a bombastic community to help out with the process. I am not trying to claim superiority or anything, but I actually find writing these articles very enjoyable (save when they get eaten by the void).

I'm confused. What does difficulty add (on the writer's end) except workload? I've always seen the workload as the major component of the IA - simplicity of ideas and talent decreases the workload, complexity and lack of talent increases it. And, of course, you can reach a point where the workload approaches infinity.

Plus, the actual chapter isn't going to be that different. All the complication and difficulty's getting added to the history. That's a bad idea in an IA - you add a lot of difficulty without changing the end result. Even if you write this well, you've got the same chapter at the end as you would with a simpler one, and you've spent effort you could have put into making the end result more interesting.

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Stuff in the Imperium doesn't change because the Administratum and the various bodies of the Imperial Government prevent change from occurring, often with brutal force. This world would be outside the imperium, and thus outside that limiting authority. I see what you're trying to say here and if the chapter was still in Imperial Space I would be on board, but they aren't (as of this moment anyway) so I still think change is a foregone conclusion.

First, in that view, the world shouldn't still be a tribal/feudal society after 8000 years. Well, it might be one AGAIN, but it shouldn't be the same as when the Marines landed. Shouldn't really be close, even. As you say, it's a long time.

That's the thing - if things change, the world shouldn't be what it was. If things don't, the Marines shouldn't change much. This is partly a product of your massive time scale, of course.

Second, I'd be really surprised if the Imperium dedicated lots of effort to keeping Stone Age barbarians in the Stone Age. It'd seem inefficient. Better to have a nice civilized world, with lots of tithing.

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I'm thinking Medieval as the Picts are too chaotic for my liking, being naked, semen covered barbarians as they were. I am aiming more for the kilt wearing clans. Highlanders, yeah that's a good example.

Fair enough. Tis a pretty simple theme to get across. Lots of rocks, lots of fighting, a hint of the right names, and gloss over the kilts because that's as subtle as a brick.

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I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point my friend. I think that any chapter, if given enough time in obscurity, with the lack of necessary support networks would be forced to adapt. While I am starting to realize 8k might be a little out of the question without adding in some sort of temporal disturbance or some such (and in so doing eroding my argument of cultural mutation) I still think even Ultramarines might become something different given enough time and necessity.

It's more...if they have enough information and equipment to maintain the geneseed, I feel like they'd maintain most of their other practices. Certainly I think they'd still see themselves as Space Wolves at the end, even if they no longer were. After all, they don't have the actual Space Wolves around to compare themselves with. Recontact might change that opinion for them, mind.

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While those three points are good (self-imposed exile being my personal favorite of the three) I still don't see why the crash puts you off so much, haha! Again, I am not against the idea of shifting the concepts, but if I can make the original idea work I would like to.

The major problem with the crash is the length of time you want them to survive afterwards. The Raptors crash land and survive for seven years. That's plausible. Surviving for 8000 years requires that a massive amount of equipment survive in order to either maintain the Marines or allow them to manufacture new stuff. They have to bring everything they're going to need with them.

Think about the level of equipment needed to implant geneseed. To store geneseed. To maintain power armour. To manufacture new parts for power armour. There's just so much of it...

Plus, like I said, it's a very convenient crash that leaves so many Marines and so much equipment intact while killing their Astropath.

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I will admit the cursed founding angle would work, but it also feels too easy and lacks a certain amount of character... I dunno maybe I am just a masochist when it comes to writing.

Most ideas don't have character (this one included, IMO). Their implementation does.

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Yes, magical nature. I don't know why having an element or two of random chance is so horrible. You've already made a claim that the Imperium does not change, their perceptions do not change, their methods do not change. If the AdMech attack the issue in the same fashion, from the same angles, every time they try to make a change in the genes of a chapter then they will not have the resources or mindset to think outside of their box, as it were. That isn't to say they are incompetence or even unlucky, that is to say that they don't "perceive" an alternative route to solving the problem. It is plausible that this would be so, hence why they gave up on fixing the Helix in the first place. Case closed, nothing we can do. Why then is it so much worse to have this small strain of DNA on some backwater world happen to hold the key to the problem. It isn't unheard of, in fact a lot of the key stones of modern medicine were found by random chance and with luck.. a particular strain of fungus comes to mind. Again, it might be a little clunky to rely on random chance as the lynch pin of a chapter's stability but it could work if you really think about it.

Because your idea already has a lot of random chance. They crash in the first place. The crash leaves enough equipment surviving for 8000 years. The geneseed randomly works (which is a BIG coincidence). The Marines go native while still maintaining the knowledge of how to create Space Marines (and since they're Heresy era, they'll be using all the unstable old techniques). It's heaping coincidence on coincidence.

That's actually a point I hadn't considered - what about the bit where they're Heresy era Marines? First, they'll be using old-school geneseed techniques, which are unstable, but why wouldn't they conquer the planet and start trying to build a spaceship or something? Modern Space Wolves might be content to sit around a bit, but Heresy Space Wolves are all expansionist and disciplinedish.

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You're right again, but if the system they are spat out in is littered by violent warpstorms for X thousand years then it doesn't really matter how hard the Imperium looks, they won't find them. If the Astronomicon can't light the way and the Navigators can't find the path then they are lost. This would also deal with the limited gene-pool and resources of a lone strike cruiser and could allow me to be more heavy handed with the survivor's casualties both during the crash and over the following centuries while dealing with the Orkish menace.

Oh, it's definitely an improvement on a single Strike Cruiser. It feels a bit more disruptive to the universe (since you're dictating the actions of more of an official chapter), but it's an improvement.

EDIT: Damn it.

So what are you after now? :P